Ducati Monster Forum

Hi, I'm female, 50+, returning to motor cycling after taking 25 years off to have and raise my family (bikes and babies don't mix, is my philosophy). Anyway, the kids are out on their own, and the spouse is an ex-spouse, so time for fun.

My previous biking experience was about 10 years with a series of Hondas, culminating in the 80's with CB750 F1 and F2. The latter got re-built into a Rickman Endurance replica frame so I got used to light weight, precise handling and brembo brakes. (http://cybermotorcycle.com/gallery/rickman/Rickman_CRE_Kit_Mexico_3.htm (http://cybermotorcycle.com/gallery/rickman/Rickman_CRE_Kit_Mexico_3.htm))

Any who, I'm looking at Monsters and appreciate any advice on selecting between them.

What I'm looking for:
- occasional commmute - I do 14 miles each way, in pretty much nose to tail traffic unless I go in super early. The first 5 miles is a twisty road that follows a creek, and also has a lot of hazards - other traffic, school age drivers, school bus, deer, wet leaves, ... depending on season
- weekend cruises - there is a local bike club I can join. They do day rides. Most of the bikes are H-D or Japanese cruisers, but one of the other girls has an S2
- occasional weekends away - I live within weekend cruising distance of Gatlinburg TN, the Smoky's, Asheville NC, Tail of the Dragon NC, ...

I drive very conservatively - don't want to pop wheelies, or live at the red end of the rev band.

I probably will relocate to the PNW at some point, and would love to tour the coast, the cascades, down to California, upto Canada. etc. by motor cycle.  That may well be a few years from now, and could be a different bike, but my personality is one where I like to "buy right" the first time, and keep for years (my 911 is 11 years old now, going on for 12 and I fully intend to keep it a lot longer ...and you don't want to ask how old my stereo is ..)

Comfort and Fit:
The 696 fits me - that was the one I felt most comfortable on. My dealer says he can adjust the 796 to fit the same as the 696 with the lower seat. Then I got side tracked into reading reviews of the 1100e and thinking "well, its only a couple of grand more, and I get more power, lower down. If the dealer can adjust the 796 to fit, he probably can do the same for the 1100e....

Weight:
For the past 10 years my bikes have had names like "Scott CR1" and "Cervelo S2" and weigh in at the 16 to 17lbs wet mark... I can pick them up with one hand. I look at reviews of H-D's and think "there is no way I could maneuver a bike that weighs 550 or 600 lbs. I have a porsche if I want something that heavy ... it has 4 wheels and a reverse gear !"  The 3 Monsters seem to weigh pretty much the same - the 696 a little lighter, but probably pretty close to the other two if spec'd with ABS.

Tractability in traffic:
Is there much difference between the bikes when used in city and town ?  The 1100e seems to have a lower torque and power range, but both it and the 796 are criticised in the reviews for "tall gearing" (rear sprocket 45 compared to 39 on the 696).  Does remapping the ECU smooth out the low end or make it worse ?  How is the clutch on the 1100e compared to the APTC clutch on the other two ?

Safety:
The toys increase - 696 ABS optional, 796 ABS std, 1100e ABS and DTC std ... but do they really make a difference ?  Do the toys increase service costs and compromise reliability ( I have fried the electrics on a bike on a wet ride before, and its not fun ..)

Pretty:
My monster has to be pretty ! (sorry to the guys here, but it just does !)  I like the white tank/red frame option on the 796. The red tank/white stripe/red frame on the evo isn't bad either. I don't want to drop $$ on the Monster Art options, though.

Noise levels:
Does adding the Termi slip on's make the Monster unbearably loud ?  I like the "look" but if they the noise is going to get me censured by the neighborhood I'd just as soon stay "stock", unless there is a resonable gain in performance, durability or tractability over the stock pipes.

Mods:
Apart from termi's, frame/fork/axle sliders, rear fender eliminator kit - what are the "must do" mods for comfort and safety. Like, do the mirrors work, or do I have to swap out to get ones that don't have blind spots, and don't blurr up for half the rev band ?

Budget:
I'm in the relatively fortunate position that I can afford to buy the bike that's right for me. Not that money is no object, but its more a case of I'm limited by what is sensible to spend, rather than a specific $$ amount. Is there a big jump in running costs (gas, service, insurance, tires, .. ) between the monsters ? 

Sorry - a lot of questions in one post, so bear with me and give me your thoughts.  Should I go with the 696 as it is the best fit, cheapest, can be had with ABS. Or is the 796 worth the step up for the extra power, despite being compromised by the taller gears ? If I go all out and get the 1100e, would that be "too much bike" for 90% of what I want to do ?

Thanks,
Duchess

Welcome - You pose a great set of questions.  I don't have any firsthand knowledge of the new Monsters but I'm sure some great observations are heading your way.  I'm a few months short of the half century mark and started riding 5 years ago.  After learning on an '85 Nighthawk for a year, I found a 2000, 750 Monster and for where I am as a rider, it has been an ideal bike.  I hope you find a Monster to suit you.

All of your questions leads up to the big one - which will make you smile most?

Every little detail is either taken care of by Ducati or will be taken care of by the dealer - with or without our help [thumbsup]

I suggest we take turns answering one question each. Who's first?

Comfort and fit:
There's a clevis at the bottom/rear of the shock. It can be replaced by one from the 696 to lower a 797 or 1100. Of course, a seat might also be in order. The front is lowered by letting the fork up through the steering head triples.

 I had a 696 for two and a half years.  I think it is an ideal bike for shorter riders.  With your experience I would certainly go for the 796 or 1100.

I lowered my first bike, but wasn't really happy with the results.

The 696 is fine in stop and go traffic.  It is not a great highway bike because of windblast, but that can vary from rider to rider.

As far as mods, the sliders are an excellent idea.  I found the mirrors to be crappy, so I replaced them with CRGs.

Well congrats first of all on choosing a Ducati, let alone a monster. Also id like to say how up to par you are with what your going to be purchasing, most folks just run out and buy something.
Termis are not horribly loud, loud enough to hear the bike and loud enough to piss off the right person, but termis are THE exhaust for ducatis, there are even threads on this website to quiet up the termis if need be. The other noise maker from Ducati is the dry clutch which is not available on newer monsters so no worry there.
Tailchops are not NEEDED but it cleans up the rear a lot more and gets rid of the infamous "beer tray"
I have CRG bar end mirrors on mine, and although when i purchased the bike with them already mounted i thought i would hate them, but ended up loving the heck out of them.
Another thing to bring up that most people tend to over look. A lot of folks don't ride bikes for gas mileage but if you do for some reason have to commute with the bike its good to know the numbers.
1100 33mpg
796 42mpg
696 50mpg
All in all stopintime nailed it
What bike makes YOU the happiest, test ride them, see how they feel, how the react, how you sit fit while cornering. May i also add the 1100 is a BIG bike, and since you don't seem so content on being crazy i think the 796 to 696 would be a better option. Good luck with your purchase, we are glad to have you here, any more questions ask! and most importantly, be ready to have your life changed for the better, let us know what you get!

Thanks everyone. It is so nice to be welcomed into "the family" (said, of course in a Marlon Brando/Don Corleone/Godfather accent).

@stopintime:
Thanks for the hint on replacing the clevis pin - I'll pass that onto my sales guy. This dealership is new to Ducati, which makes them both a little inexperienced, but also very interested to make quota and sell bikes. They are offering up the lower seat which drops ride height by 20mm, but didn't mention the clevis trick. If the same lowering can be achieved without the $250 seat, then that is better !  I'm not tiny (150 lbs, 5' 8", 30 inseam) but I do like to be able to get both feet on the ground. I needed a mounting stool to get on the Multistrada !  The 696 just "fit".

@Supraguy74:
Gas mileage is a good tip also - only 33 for the 1100e, with a tiny gas tank,  is a strike against. Not so much on the commute (2x14 miles = 28 a day, so say a gallon, so say 3 trips before fueling. Yikes !) but that would limit weekend cruising - looking for a gas station every 100 miles would be annoying.  Is the 33 an "all in" gas mileage ? would it do better on a gentle cruise ?
On the same lines, I just e-mailed my insurance broker for quotes on the different models. At least I'm 50+, but the evo will probably be a step up compared to the others.

I have a couple of weeks to get my thoughts in order before the dealer gets their test ride bikes ready (they were caught unprepared by the spring coming a month early) so please keep the suggestions coming so that I'm properly prepped for my "smile test" :-)

@several of you - CRG bar ends go on the list ! 

Keep it coming! - Duchess

ABS and DTC - for your described riding style - probably not required, but suddenly it's gravel you brake on and then ABS has paid for itself in one go. DTC - not so much.

Noise: slip ons and neighbours? It's like "ah, she's home" not like "ARGH, THAT WOMAN IS HOME"  8)

Investigate budget, mileage, insurance, color options, mods and anything else you can think of, but wait for the test rides to decide what your feelings are telling you.

 [Dolph]

well give you an example, i have a monster 01 monster 900sie with ducati performance ecu and pipes and a 4 gallon tank. I average around 130-140 pushing it with the light screaming at my face. thats right around 33mpg. My commute is 15 miles each way and it sucks filling up eery 3rd or fourth day. Just my 2 cents

I ride a 2012 1100 evo,ive got termi exhaust,loud yeah not as loud as my harley was but they come with decible killers that you could leave in and take out when you feel like,ive got the 14 tooth front sprocket and i get about 38-40 miles to the gallon and i get on it when ever the mood strikes riding back and forth to work,I also have the CRG arrow mirrors but not in this picture. http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll131/07600cbrrr/72a31405.jpg, (http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll131/07600cbrrr/72a31405.jpg,) heres a pic of mine    

A lot can be done. YOu can get the lower seat and possibly lower the suspension of the bike. Seat first, as lowering it does reduce ground clearance.


While the 1100 will be heavier it's not epic. If a dealer is generous enough, perhaps you could go push around the various models in the show room to get a sense for it.


All Ducs are gear tall. It's a by product of emissions regs these days. It's very common for folks to change the final drive gearing. Dropping 1 tooth in front is the cheap easy way to do it. The better, but much more costly is to go up 3 teeth in back which 99% of the time requires a longer chain - hence the increased cost.

That gearing change makes makes any monster more pleasant in traffic or around the city. I've had a 620 and now have a 900 - both were improved with that type of gearing change.

APTC clutches are known for their light pull. For me, they are single finger save for in traffic. The APTC usually has a small friction zone, that's very close to the end of the levers travel. Some folks don't like that... I just dealt with it on my 620

For a conservative rider - probably very little. Though you might save on insurance. Any additional systems like that are something else that can break - that's just the nature of any mechanical beast. Traditional brakes are very simple hydraulic pumps - ABS adds in sensors, a computer, valving etc etc. Add more complication and...

Also, at least with the monster, they found that a skilled rider can stop faster with out ABS when braking to the threshold. But for mere mortals ABS will stop faster.


To get the most from a set of slip-ons like the Termis you need to map the ECU and let in more air (open air box). Then you can get a pretty good gain. If you just install the slip-ons there's really no power gain. You do loose a lot of dead weight though. The stock cans are like lead bricks. Both termi cans on my 900 are lighter than a single stock one.

Get the suspension tuned for you. That will impact comfort, safety, tire life and handling.
If you want some viz but not the ugly plastic reflectors get some reflective wheel stripes. Lots of color choices to suit any look, even black that's near invisible in day light, and show up quite well when hit with a directional light like a headlight.
In that vein, you could get a helmet halo - reflective band that goes around the base of your helmet and is REALLY reflective.

Really there's no *musts* plenty of common ones like different mirrors



Bigger will cost more. You'll spend more on gas and insurance for sure. Tires is really on you. Some folks thrash a tire in a couple thousand that others make last 10K.

Service will probably be on par for any of those bikes. They are all 2V, air cooled. Adding in ABS might make things more costly, but I really don't know. But model to model valve service will be the same.

See my post on your intro thread.  8)

LOL - Thanks, stopintime !  That was worth a chuckle :-)

Everything has been pretty much covered but I'll add a couple of thoughts;

For me, the power level of the 696 is OK.  Being shot (less tan 5'8'')  I would either go for the 696 or the 1100 to get the better suspension and other goodies. 

Even for the best riders ABS has an advantage when it comes to unexpected uneven traction surfaces or the occasional brain fart.

If you are light adjust sag first, the bike might turn out just low enough.  Then seat, then suspension link (clevis). 

Termis with baffles are pretty quiet.  The baffles are removable.

I have the 1100 evo and while the small tank is an issue it is not as big an issue ad it may appear. I do approx 1000 to 2000 klm per month and I have just adapted.
Went on a ride with a 796 last week and he had no trouble with available power I dropped the front sprocket by 1 tooth and that made all the difference in the world in traffic.

Welcome to the forum!

Looking forward to seeing which bike you choose.

Cheers Duchess.

 

After 25 years of not riding, I'd go for the ABS. Hell, I wish they'd had it as an option on my bike.

Something else to consider, it might be worth your while to look into some rider training. Worst case scenario, you get an insurance discount. And speaking of insurance, it's a good idea to shop around. Some insurance companies consider all Ducatis to be "sport bikes," with commensurate rates. Others classify the Monster as a "standard," which can save you a shit ton.

As for the mileage, it'll depend somewhat on how much you use the throttle in anger. I have a Sport 1000 and I consistently get 40+ mpg mixed city/highway. Personal best of 52 mpg one time when I really needed to stretch a tank.

But as they've all said, welcome! Nice to see a newbie who's done some homework.  [beer]

1100 Evo.  'Nuff said. ( Except you have to get the Termi's too )

@Buckethead - thanks !  I'm signed up for the basic rider training mid April - I may learn something, I'll get my endorsement, and I may get a few percent on the insurance.  Talking of insurance, I work via a broker who does the shopping around for me - Tina is pretty good, she saved me a bunch of money on car insurance by NOT going to GEICO.  :-)

I posted on your intro thread as well.

"
All three of the new Monster can be made to the height you need.
For the 796/1100 buy the 696 rear suspension mount clevis for 20 bucks and it lowers the rear about an 1" or more. Then pull the forks through the same on the front.
For the seat, Don't get the low seat. It's wider. The 796 stock seat i've heard is really good. Also sargeant can make a narrow seat for you if you ask for that change.
The 696 may not have the umph you might remember, but it's very nice with the 14t around town. but if you want the single sided swingarm, which most people do, the 796/1100 are the way to go.
And don't let anyone tell you one is better than the other, 696 has plenty of power for the street, and the 1100 just needs judiscious throttle control for normal riding.

the newer bikes have slightly taller bar mounts and you can even get the taller bar kit to raise it more to get you to a very neutral position.
You will need new springs, for that, the 1100 might be better as the 696 forks are kinda wierd. not sure about the 796 if it has the 1100 style or 696 style forks.

"

I have a 696 and one of the deciding factor was insurance rate. My insurance was almost double for a 796 compared to 696. You definately want to call your insurance company and get rates on diff. monsters.

^^^^^^^ I had the same exact issues. I went with the 696, the 796 they wanted double for the insurance payment.

You're also a 20-something dude. Duchess will be in a very different insurance table. She might not take the fiscal reaming for the bigger bike that you do.

"fiscal reaming" - I certainly don't like the sound of that :(

Most everything has been covered already, but another option for seat lowering is spencers seat mods:

http://greatdaytoride.com/Home_Page.php (http://greatdaytoride.com/Home_Page.php)

he can lower and customize the stock seat for you for about $85... prob a better option compared to the pricing of the low seat.

i would say the main reason to go for a 1100 vs a 796 is for the suspension rather than the power.  having a fully adjustable suspension is pretty nice.

Greetings, "thought"!

Read her intro thread. Lots more background there. http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=55878.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=55878.0)

You can also tell her that your mother drives a 930.  ;) But would you want your mother on an EVO?!  8)

Besides, paying all the money for a suspension which isn't really that adjustable within her weight limits and one which few rookie dealers will even know how to set up...

The Marzocchis on the 796 aren't that evil. A decent Ohlins and spring, built for her riding and weight costs "only" $625 and Donnie Unger really likes mine. Do the math.  ;)

Weather is getting warm early now. Are you still travelling in the Far East?

Regards!

Thanks everyone - I guess I'm getting to the point where I have absorbed the literature and now need to get out on the bikes. Unfortunately I have to wait until April 2nd before my big "test ride every bike in the dealership" appointment. But, in addition to the 3 monsters, I'll hope to blag a ride on the Diavel and a Hyper 796...  Prolly worth waiting for.

After the research, I'm kinda leaning to the 1100e, with the reservation that if its too temperamental and prone to unwanted wheelies, I'll smack its nose and put it back in the stable to ride the 796 instead. Prolly won't need to drop down to the 696 .. but the baby is kinda cute ...  

Then I have taken on board a lot of wisdom around how to lower the bike, what alternative seats exist. Also considerations of carbon exhausts, remapped ECU's, 14T and 41T options for the tall gearing, bar end mirrors and sliders ...


You are all so welcoming and willing to share your experience - thank you. I'm sure I have much to learn as the journey unfolds,

Duchess

If you're worried about the seat height the motards are going to be even more worry. They are taller and engine to engine even more wheelie prone.

The diavels interesting. Much more nimble than than big rear would lead you to believe. The select on the fly maps are a neat trick - just watch out of the sport/full power one - that engine has oomph and lets you know it in that mode. If you're expecting it, very manageable. But it'll take off like a bat outa hell in a 2nd gear roll on in the sport mode.

On the 1100e, I had the thought that if I mostly got it for the better torque and DTC, and then used the DTC primarily to tame the torque down to 796 levels, I may just as well have gotten a 796 in the first place --

But the 1100 evo does come with better forks, too. So get a stock 796, replace the suspension with Ohlins, ... as Curmudgeon suggests....

This way madness lies - I want to ride the bike, not spend my weekends modifying it. I could easily get sucked in to the whole "tweak the Monster" sub culture. (no offense to any tweakers out there :-)  - I love you all !)

I also thought that one of the reasons the 1100e is attractive is "big engine envy" - one of the girls at work just got a HD Softtail with an 103 cu-in engine - that's 1688 cc or more than twice the 796 ... My first car only had a 1300 cc engine, developing 50 bhp ... mind you, her HD weighs in at 760 lbs, so nearly twice as much as the 796 also.... and she admitted there are days she can't maneuver it around her garage.

I just have to get back to my European "light is right" ways and stop getting side tracked. As one of my heroes put it:  "simplify, then add lightness" (Colin Chapman, as I'm sure you know, founder of Lotus Engineering
My mother drove a Super Seven Mk 4 as her daily driver for many years..... )

I guess another of his quotes that is relevant to this discussion is "Make the suspension adjustable, and they will adjust it wrong - look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver "

Duchess

She's a witch! Burn her!

 >:(

Hello Duchess,

Will reply to your PM presently.

Meanwhile..., agree that 'light is right" but maybe not to Chapman extremes. (I knew Jimmy Clark slightly when I worked with NART during the summers of 1964 & 1965). Just think, a 796 = 419 BHP per ton! You would have loved my 600 SL in your twenties because it weighed ~ 320 lbs on the scales.  ;) BTW, few Harleys will be in the same State if they follow you on a Ducati. Your mother sounds tough!  ;)

Agree with you on mods. After riding a 696, I knew what was right and what was needy; the mods on my 796 were done before leaving the premises. This my 34th (?) bike and 8th Ducati though. All this stuff is totally subjective but I DO know precisely what I like.

This lad was going to disassemble and fine tune my forks, but after setting up my rear shock preload and damping, he found both ends to be working perfectly together. He weighs 10 lbs more than I, BTW. http://www.ducpond.com/aboutus.asp (http://www.ducpond.com/aboutus.asp) I'm quite sure that my suspension could be more plush and 10% better..., for ~ $5K. It's too good as it is to bother. The bike goes where I think it but has no bad manners, at least at road speeds. 8)

So far no one has mentioned that the 1100 EVO has a much heavier dry clutch. The 796 clutch is two fingers and if you ride with finesse, you'll enjoy it. No chirps from the back wheel either if you downshift through several gears briskly, so long as you make "some" attempt to match revs.  ;) Do you still have those "old school" muscle memories? The front brake is two fingers too BTW.

Later...

@Buckethead:

To miss quote Monty Python

VILLAGER #1:  If... she.. weighs the same as a duc, she's made of wood.
BEDEMIR:  And therefore--?
VILLAGER #1:  A witch!

and we all know duc's weigh in at around 430 ~ 460 lbs.

so I can only take it that you are slandering my slender figure by accusing me of being a Witch

:)

Duchess

796 is 415 lbs wet with 3.6 gallons, ~ 373 dry with ABS.

according to Ducati, one of the mods they made on the evo was to switch to a "wet multiplate clutch with hydraulic control" - it's not the APTC on the 696/796, but its not the old heavy dry clutch.

LOL - maybe what I want is to wait until Ducati bring out the 769 evo with the better suspension ....

Duchess

PS : in Europe two fingers are for signalling to traffic as well as for clutch and front brake ...

Sorry! I stand corrected. http://www.ducati.com/bikes/monster/1100__evo_/233/tech_spec.do (http://www.ducati.com/bikes/monster/1100__evo_/233/tech_spec.do) I actually LIKE the APTC on my bike as does my rather large 34-year-old son who has put ~ 100 miles on it. Guess I was thinking 1100S. You will see that it's heavier on the EVO though.

Don't hold your breath for a 796S.  ;) The market neither exists for one nor would the ticket of admission be acceptable! The components on a 796 are quite premium. Check out the wheels and swing arm.

BTW, a 796 ABS was introduced at $11K but was reduced to $10K for 2011. I consider the ABS "free".  8) Price one in the U.K. and you'll see this market's advantage after you pick yourself up off the floor!   ;)

Yes you get them a lot cheaper than we do, currently £8200 for the 796 with ABS and at todays exchange rate would cost $13000 US

Well, I got my insurance quotes:

With full medical/bodily injury coverage the rates are (drum roll please ...)

Yamaha FZ6R (600 cc reference bike) - $713/year
Ducati   M696                                 - $591/year
Ducati   M796                                 - $678/year
Ducati  M1100evo                           - $824/year

so less than $20 a month separating the big bad evo from the cute cuddly 696 - so thank you all you careful Ducati riders out there, and stay away from Yamaha riders, they are clearly reckless !

Duchess

 :)

This is with full collision and comp I presume? What medical is that? You may already be covered for medical on your current medical policy and I presume you will not be carrying passengers! Did the broker give you all applicable experienced rider discounts? Do you have an excess liability policy covering your house and cars? If so, will it pick up where the liability coverage ends on the bike policy? OH may also be more expensive than some states. (VA is VASTLY cheaper than NJ was.) Who is this carrier?

Many here are probably only insured for liability and self-insure for collision and comp. In retirement I'm short of funds and do this. Also, the sale of my old bikes paid for these two current new ones. Also, at my age, if I REALLY drop one, I'm unlikely to be able to ride again as something major will break. Being a good bit younger, YOU would hopefully NOT be in that "fix".

Dear Curmudgeon,

These were rough quotes for comparison purposes, to see if any of the choices were ruled out by sky high insurance. In the UK, the 1100e is insurance group 15, vs the 796 at group 11, so I would have expected a bigger jump going from one to the other. Less than 100/year difference is peanuts compared to what the difference in power is...

I can fine tune later, once I have picked an actual bike ...

Duchess

Rates in the EC are much more driven by cc's than here, and there's a lot of difference in the way bikes are rated from state to state as well. Displacement and MSRP ARE issues, but only part of the equation. No doubt you're getting discounts for homeowner, female, 50+, riding experience, etc., etc. Ask for the same quotes for a new rider <30 year-old male and your heart could stop beating!  8)

BTW, in the UK, an agreed value policy on my Plus 8 is 1/3 - 1/2 what a collector car policy costs here!  ??? Life ain't fair.  ;)

I'll just throw my $0.02 in...

First of all: Welcome!

Now, thats out of the way...

I used to commute on my 620 all the time, and I can honestly say...I hardly ever wished I had a lot more power. It's light, and nimble, and FUN. I also regularly got 55-60 mpg out of it without ever thinking about riding efficently. I'd power away from lights, and rev it out through the gears. I'm not sure if the newer 696 are the same, but I'd assume they're close.

As far as mods. bar end mirrors are cool. some other blingy stuff too...just don't let them convince you to chop your tail, if you're going to ride in bad weather. Else you'll end up with muddy streaks up your back  [laugh]

Termis sound awesome. Just do it. Damn the neighbors!

Also, if you plan on doing some touring, they monster is okay....but may I suggest the multi be added to your list of potentials. Though...it is taller


Hope you stick and round, and can put up with our unique genre of crazy  [thumbsup]

She seems to be holding her own. I say we keep her.

my Ins insurance on the 1100 evo. Everything except collision is 13 dollars a month x 8 for 12 mo policy

If you have good health insurance at your work there is no reason for medical payments. Taking that out drops your premium substantially.

As I said to Curmudgeon, these were a "load everything in and see how high is up" numbers - I'll fine tune when I have the specific bike picked out. So thanks for the advice on taking out the medical - I have good medical insurance at work - just need to verify they don't exclude "bodily injury due to riding a Ducati" somewhere in the small print ..

@Buckethead - thanks for leaping to my defense :-)  My Daddy didn't raise no daughter who couldn't hold her own .. so, Pirate - bring on the crazy .. 8) 

@Pirate - I love the riding position on a MTS or Hyper ... just need to carry around a step stool as luggage, so I can climb on and off ... oh, and the electronic gizmo the fire service have to turn the upcoming traffic lights to green, so I never have to stop, 'cos my feet wouldn't be able to reach the ground... Or I could ride in awesome stiletto's ... whatcha think ?

Duchess

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l394/stopintime/ducstiletto.png)

OOoohhhh Stopintime, NOW you have my interest ...

AWESOME !!!  We wants them, my precious, we wants them !

Duchess

Fun thread. Don't think I've ever seen someone come in here looking for bike advice and give so much relevant information.  [thumbsup]

I thought I'd mention two things that can make a bigger difference than you might expect.

First, the 696 has a 160mm wide rear tyre, whereas the 796 and 1100 have 180s. All else being equal, that will make the 696 steer a little bit more accurately. Well, maybe quite a bit, especially when the road is a bit bumpy and the tyre a bit worn.

Second, I imagine the smaller engines will need a bit more throttle to maintain similar speeds. Given that modern motorbike engines are way over-powered for road use anyway, that is something to set against the "more grunt" aspect of the bigger motors, particularly the 1100.

The reality is, the 1100 will have more grunt across the rev-range at full throttle, but if you are riding it gently then you will rarely be using full throttle.  

Around town and even at legal speeds on the highway, I have found a smaller engine can feel more precisely responsive and more entertaining. Just something to think about for your test ride.

Thanks, Moronic !

Thank you for the welcome - it is nice to find so many fun and crazy, yet strangely helpful people to hang out with -
( or do I mean fun and helpful, yet strangely crazy ? - let me  think about that for a while ... probably both :p )

Your comment echoes a phone discussion with a dealer down in KY, who in essence said "its more fun to drive a bike close to its limits ... the bigger the bike, the less satisfying it will be in normal conditions, because you will be nowhere near its limits, and in fact struggling to get it up into its performance band" ..

I agree with the dealer up to a point, which is that constantly driving at the limit of performance, just to keep up with normal road traffic, can be wearing and dangerous (my experience riding a 50cc yamaha for 180 miles on main roads on one memorable trip) - but clearly none of the Ducati's will be anywhere near their limits at legal road speeds...  I guess that is why y'all like the 14T option - it brings a bit more of that sweet spot into daily life.

I think that is a problem with much of the motorcycling press - they get a bike for the press launch, have maybe a couple of hours on it, over roads carefully picked by the manufacturer - possibly even a track or closed course. They thrash the bike, use all the road and all the revs, in a way you just don't do on a daily commute.  Their comments are all about the extreme use, and not the daily living.

Like a marriage - dating is fun, but the transition to living together and being responsible doesn't always work out (she says, having been divorced twice ...)

It won't be until next weekend that I get to see the bikes again, but this thread is biasing me to the small and cuddly end of the range, and away from the "more bike than I need ..."  big bad evo ...

But we will see. We will see.

Keep it coming - messages of welcome, chat, information, advice, shoes, ... :-)

Duchess

There is NOTHING more fun than torque.

The end.

 

Probably  ;D

Hello Duchess,

In the event you missed this post on gmerri's intro thread...

"So, my black model is still in route, but the dealer loaned me a used 11 red 796.  My oh my does this thing have plenty of torque for me.  I've got a ways to go to get my experience back, but felt like it went everywhere I looked with ease.  Did a few twisties while the roads were dry but when it got wet, lost that desire.  This model had the 14t sprocket as recommended.  I stayed pretty much in 2 and 3 and maybe got to 5th a couple of times, but really didn't need it."

Probably sounding like a broken record now...  8) Opinions are cheap and also subjective. As an experienced but returning rider, IMO you'd get bored with a 696 in a few thou. Not enough happens when you wick it up. That won't happen with a 796 and 14T unless you're seriously maniacal.  ;) No doubt you COULD learn to manage an EVO, but you might spend a lot of your concentration on trying to keep it from doing something "rude".

Obviously you have to ride some bikes, but do a price/value comparison as well. I did. Most of the EVO goodies are found on the 796 at minimal upcharge vs a 696. Naturally, YOU decide...

FWIW,

You'll be no where near the limits of the 696 at road legal speeds. You can pull out and pass a line of cars @ 70, and never have to drop a gear. Sure, it isn't the beast that the Evo is, but it's still WAY more than enough on the road. But then again, I'm probably biased. I've ridden alot of different bikes, but I still love my 620.


agreed on reaching the ground from the multi. I actually step on the peg when I'm mounting one of those adv-touring bikes, cause I can't get my leg over them  [laugh] Should of thought of that first I guess...

I'd avoid the stilettos....then you'll just have to be beating them off with sticks around here  [laugh]


oh...and all the crazy lives in the No Moto Section. Enter at your own risk!

Duchess,

Took the 796 to lunch the long twisty way as it's 85 F here and partly cloudy, at least temporarily.  ;) Sadly rain all weekend but in consolation there's an F1 race to watch!

For reference, with 14T, 80 MPH = 5,000 RPM in 6th. 80 in 5th ~ 5,400 RPM. The whole box is fairly close ratio IMO. Think 5,000 on the bike = 3.000 on your C4 and just as relaxed.

Definitely consider the Tech Spec pads for the faux tank. They really give good support when you get behind slow traffic and you dig your knees into them.

BTW, these bikes have a "heartbeat". No one mentioned that so far, but you'll see that on your rides. Have to go clean 50 miles of speed limit +30 bugs off the baby.  ;)

696 14t will get you about 110mph, 15t about 120 mph.

way more than U.S. legal speeds

Wow, way late to this thread I was off having fun at Daytona, but I think I have a contribution. IMHO the stock exhaust on the M1100 EVO does not need to be fooled with it sounds fine and the stock EVO has plenty of power. And the paint kits @ ~$600 are a great option which you may not appreciate at first but someday you might wake up and say I want a change. Lastly the tail bag for the EVO is really nice and well thought out perefct for some overnight/weekend trips. - Gene

Raux,

She's more interested in the low end of an R100/7 with the mid-range, top end, weight and handling of a 796 (or EVO?!  [roll])

Gene,

You're having too much fun!  ;) Read her intro thread which has more detailed information. She's my size with a 30" inseam and arthritis in her left leg. That tail bag won't work. The tail is already 39". http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=55878.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=55878.0)

Agree with you about noise too. A Triumph buddy of mine with Togas on his Bonneville and Arrows on his Sprint came by last autumn to check out my 796. When he fired it up, he said..., "WOW, they come like that stock"?  :)

If I were made of $$$, I'd possibly spring for the homolgated Ti Termignoni kit. The bike would be even smoother if it were just a touch richer. Fatduc doesn't make anything for Siemens or DP ECU's but "ungeheuer" mentioned to me that Dynojet makes O2 manipulators to work with a Power Commander V. Will speak with Donnie and see what he thinks and whether he can get the PCV O2 manipulators separately. Might be a nice touch.  ;)

PS. Thanks for the support on the two VA motorcycle bills! After 7/01/12 we can ride away from a stop light together without being arrested!!!  [leo]

Not sure why you say the tailbag does not work? The tailbag I am talking about is the DP tailbag that was specifically made for the new monster, bolts into the same location as the seat cowl, what am I misssing? - Gene

It sits on the "back seat" and rises from there. The cowl is 39" already! With the tail bag full, I watched an older gent try to get on his bike. NOT an option with MY hip to get "over" that bag. Just sticking a leg over the seat isn't workable for me either. Maybe for a young, limber guy?

Ah, got it. Had not thought about that, I have the same issue on my M900 with the Cortech bag but only when I have the rain suit bag on top of the Cortech. But then I'm still a youngster ;) - Gene

Taking your Viagra, eh?  ;D

You're "only" five years younger than I..., and not to thread-jack..., but just before Thanksgiving I popped something out of whack just getting off the sofa!  :( My physiotherapist put things more or less back into register, but I'm hobbling around like a total antique occasionally, although the warmer temps are helping. I'm fine once I'm on the bike though, and it's my right leg and not my left, unlike the duchess. WHEW. Underway, I'm still a competent 40-year-old.  ;) My physio DID say NOT to extend my leg REARWARD though when I get on the bike, so that bag is definitely no-go.

Watch those parts falling off as you age. There IS one guy in his 70's down here who used to race Porsches with Gurney and Holbert and I can barely keep HIM in sight. Hope for you yet?  ;)

the PC V enrichers are only needed if you have a closed loop. so those people that have used the Rexxer to open then bottom end loop by deleting the O2 sensors, don't need them. I would contact those people.

Raux,

Thanks. Not looking to re-map at this point as I have no performance issues generally and want to keep things stock. Might just want to fake out the O2 sensors a hair for a tiny bit richer mix to enhance low end smoothness. The bike has plenty of poke but would not object to one more MPG and 1 - 2 extra BHP. Donnie will know if it's worth the bother and not detrimental.

Exactly and if he can get my S2R smmoth with the exhaust I have on it...... - Gene

Hey guys ... come on in and join the party :-)

Curmudgeon is right about problem getting onto the bike. I found a pretty good technique -
 - stand to the left of the bike
 - keeping left leg and hip pretty still, and holding onto the bars, get my right knee onto the seat
 - hitch my butt over to the right
 - straighten right leg and drop into place

Looks a little odd, but means I don't have to swing my right leg all the way over the tail, which would preclude the use of the tail bag (which I have heard is quite cute, as it transforms into a backpack, neh ?) and in any case would not be possible, as my left hip just wouldn't take the rotation

counting down the days until I get to test ride the Monsters and take this out of the theory and into the reality

Meanwhile, just to keep things interesting, I spent Saturday at the range qualifying for my Concealed Carry Handgun License ... pistol packin' momma heading your way.  Now I have to choose not only between a 796 and an 1100evo, but also between a Glock G26 and a S&W M&P9c ... .(and yes, I did see that there is a gun thread somewhere in this forum ...  Not surprising, as the gun guys are just as addicted to "tweaking" as you Ducati guys.)

Would be a real mess if I got mixed up ... I could end up with a Monster evo with fiber optic sights, a worked match trigger, and a 21 extended magazine, trying to shoot a Smith&Wesson with olins suspension, Termi muffler and a 14T option :-)

Ear protection needed for both endeavors, though :-)

Duchess

It will be interesting to see which one you pick.  I've ridden the 796 and the 1100 new style Monsters.  I like the extra punch of the 1100, but might be happier with the 796 especially on smaller roads.  I'm really enjoying my Darmah lately on the country roads near my house specifically because I get to twist the throttle for longer periods of time versus when I'm ridding the Monster 1000. 

Have you considered the Streetfighter 848?  [evil]

Duchess,

HK P30 or P30S.  ;) (An old client, cute, tall FBI girl used an HK .40 USP Compact as her backup.) An HK you don't tweak. You learn to shoot it. They need some break-in on Lawman or similar after which they are totally reliable. When you hold a P30 grip, like a Ducati, all will be revealed.  ;)

Too tall for her to come close to flat-footing with her arthritic left leg, slower steering, and 40 excess lbs. Nice try.  ;)

My 2 cents - I'll expand when I ride the my new 796 on Tuesday with 15 stock sprocket.  I'm currently on a demo 796 with 14T and have gone about 400 miles.  It has more torque than I need at my level (I'd label it as Early Intermediate Rider) for as far into the future as I can see.  It is big fun.  I've had people follow me into the gas station and ask me about it, as it's not very common where I live.  I'm still getting used to first gear to 10 mph, need to feather the clutch more than I'm accustomed.  After that, turn your head and it will go there in a hurry. 

As far as hand guns, my new toy, as it just feels amazing and shoots incredible, is the S&W 438 38 spc in scandium.  You just can't beat it for conceal and fires when the trigger pulls.  I have/had glock, colt, beretta and browning pistols and it's my carry.   

her 40 excess lbs !!!  Come on, Curmudgeon, I thought you were my friend !  I'm like, 10 lbs over, at the most  >:(

Duchess

M796 ABS vs SF848 = 40 excess lbs., slower steering, and + 1 1/2"  ;)

We won't even GO into my personal excess. Let's just say it settles the bike.  ;) Now go hold a P30 in your hand!  8)

You may very well be right about me ending up with a new 796, with or without tweaked suspension, 14T, termi etc. Jury is out on that until I have ridden both it and the big evo



I shot 6 rounds from a full sized S&W 38 on Saturday - very smooth and nice balance. They did hand round a titanium/scandium version in class, but all four of the instructors said it was a "pita" to fire. I'm not ruling out going the revolver route, but most of my experience has been with Glock and S&W M&P semi auto's in either 9 mm or 0.45 ..

Duchess

Duchess

Heckler & Koch P30:
Length 6.99, Barrel 3.86, ht 5.43, width 1.29, weight 29.3 ox

S&W M&Pc
Length 6.7, barrel 3.5, ht 4.3, width 1.2, weight 21.7

Glock G26
length 6.3, barrel 3.45, ht 4.2, width 1.18, weight 19.75

Beretta Nano
Length 5.63, barrel 3.07, ht 4.17, width 0.9, weight 17.7

Beretta Tomcat
Length 4.9, barrel 2.4, ht 3.7, width 1.1, weight 16.5

I have no doubt that the HK is a fine gun and nice to hold and fire ... but it is just too big and heavy to be a conceal carry for me. Where would I put it ?  I'm even thinking that the M&Pc / Glock 26 are too big for conceal,  though they are nice to hold and shoot. 

Lucky duck!  We are not allowed to carry our handguns in Canada.  I am a 1911 fan myself.

Ducati lists the 796 as 369 lbs dry and the SF848 as 373 lbs dry. Could there really be 40lbs difference in the wet weight?  The SF848 is a qick steering bike with a front end rake of 24.5 and 58 inch wheelbase versus 24 degrees and a 57 inch wheelbase for the 796.  I'm just making conversation.  If she can't feel comfortable with the extra seat height of the SF848 it isn't an option.

Travman,

33" is definitely out for both duchess and me unless the retractable training wheel option is available for stop lights!  ;)

Good point about the weights. The website lists the SF 848 @ 439 wet. A 796 ABS and SF 848 are BOTH listed at 373 dry. Can't find it now but I vaguely recall an "official" wet weight of 413 for the 796. If I add gas and oil, I come up with 401 though. Go figure!

My comments on steering were from "thought" who remarked that the 796 steering was telepathic whereas an SF had to be "coaxed" to turn.  ;)

Having owned only one 4-valve, a Ferracci-prepped 851 SBK, I DO know that the center of gravity is not as low but that the 4-valves go entirely TOO fast.  ;) (At least for the street as I frequently caught myself doing 140!) For someone coming from Jap bikes, the difference in center of gravity might mean little, but having "grown up" on BMWs and Ducatis mostly, I much prefer the 2V "feel". The 4V is certainly smooth though.

Glad to hear that you got to try a 796. Have had ZERO difficulty passing slower traffic with this thing but only learned the other day from my son that it is illegal in VA to pass more than ONE vehicle at a time! I'd been blowing by 2 - 5, just like NJ. 8) Weird law.

Regards!

A couple of things against the Street Fighter
 - seat height of 33 is going to be a problem - I "fit" the Monster 696, at 30.5, so already looking at techniques to lower the 796 from 31.5 to 30.5 ... the Street Fighter at 33 will be more of a stretch (literally)
 - Street Fighter has no ABS (even though it has DTC)

Duchess

OK so I went shopping on the way home and am now the proud owner of a couple of S&W M&P's - a .45c and a 9c - and a Beretta Tomcat .32 ...

The Tomcat is for summer carry under skirts & dresses, plus is BUG to the M&P 9c. 9c is winter carry under jackets or in pants, and can live in the car for the summer. The M&P 45c is just because I like the way it goes "bang".

I'm thinking
696 = Beretta 32 - not as much power as you would like, but easy to use, fits real well
796 = M&P 9mm - not as small as the 32, or as powerful as the 45, but probably the best all round compromise for weight, power & everyday usage
1100e = M&P 45 - more power than really needed to do the job, but so much fun to let it rip

I guess the symptom that I couldn't just walk out with the M&P 9c "compromise" gun, bodes badly for my Motorbike shopping .. .may have to sell the Porsche to make room in the garage for 3 monsters

Also the fact that I "tweaked" the M&P 9c with fiber optic sights shows that you Ducati guys are rubbing off on me and I can no longer leave well enough alone ..

Duchess

One of us, one of us, gooble gobble, one of us.  [evil]

(http://www.orangejuiceblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/freaks-one-of-us.jpg)

One more day til my 796 is here.

I don't buy that pita comment about the airweight 38.  It fires on single or double action if you have rounds in the gun.  No thinking.  Highly concealable.  No safety and in short range where it counts, it will be there.  Sure, I have and love to shoot glocks (have the subcompact 9 and 45).  But, when I don't want to have to think and most problems will be close, no question, I'd like to have that 38 revolver in my hand.  If you've missed 5 times and haven't gotten away, it probably isn't meant to be.  If I can get to my AR, then it is fun time at any rate.    

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_766203_-1_757768_757767_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_766203_-1_757768_757767_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y)

Curmudgeon, do you still have that 851?  There is a white, red, and green 851 on display in the front window of DucPond right now.

The pita comment was about this gun

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_764939_-1____ProductDisplayErrorView_Y (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_764939_-1____ProductDisplayErrorView_Y)

the titanium/scandium version weighing 11.4 oz firing a 357 mag cartridge

compared to your aluminum airweight which weighs in at 15.1 oz, firing a 38 special ...

But anyway, I went with the Beretta, mostly because its totally cute and pretty ... so there ... it also is SA/DA, so I can carry "cocked and locked" and be ready to go just by flipping the thumb safety.

Not to say a J frame isn't somewhere in my future, just not now ...

And I picked the S&W over the Glock, but peace on that one, I could easily have gone the other way, the S&W was just a marginally better fit to my hand, is all.



Duchess

There was a tree with my name on it in the mountains of NW NJ. Sold it in 1991 after three years. Never knew how fast I was going. Went to a friend of Adamo's out on L.I. Not sure what you do out there with one!  ;) Used up a lot of PBA cards riding that rocket...

Can't picture a Tri-colore as I believe the stock bikes were all red. Like Lucchinelli's? Maybe somebody dropped his in the driveway and decided to do some decorating. ;)

It's an interesting slight turn of direction to compare weapons to motorcycles but at a certain level I can dig it.

I can definitely see having different bikes but different versions of the same basic model might stretch it a bit for me.   I'd say get the biggest you can handle nicely but not so big that it handles you instead.   [Dolph]

Having just gone through a similar thought process....

Logically, the 796 offers everything you need without biting off more than you can chew. It's size, power and handling will put a smile on your face without worring about grabbing too much throttle at the wrong moment.

I opted for the 1100 evo because the wife will eventually want to hook-up in back. But a passenger doesn't sound like it's in the cards for you, so consider that. The thrust of the 1100 can be breathtaking, but just make sure it's pointed in the direction you want to go when you grab a handful.

So the 796 makes total sense, and offers a lot more for the money than a 696. But something about having the "ultimate" Monster can be it's own reward.

Kinda where I am, too, El-Twin ... 796 makes perfect sense, so I'll prolly end up with the 1100e, just 'cos

Laughing at myself already :-)  Duchess

Nothing wrong with having 3 Monsters in the shed. My S2R is kept company by the Boss' 620 & S4R (both of which have been lowered) ... they all have completely different personalities yet are unmistakably Monsters.

With regard to your 'dilemma' ... you can't really lose. Your considered approach and thoughtful understanding of the realities holds you in good stead. The test rides should confirm your feelings and make your decision easier [laugh]

As for all this gun talk ... geez I am enough danger to myself with a Monster and a keyboard so I'll leave that alone.

Good luck.

Duchess,

I'll be fascinated to read your report after you take some test rides.

What continues to astonish me from following bike development over the decades, is the rate at which general performance levels have risen.

Returning to bikes around 06 after a break of only six years, I had my eyes opened when a friend offered a long run on his near-new Suzuki GSX-R1000.

(http://daffyduc.smugmug.com/photos/i-JWMpnhn/0/S/i-JWMpnhn-S.jpg)

We spent a bit of time on semi-rural roads and then he asked me whether I'd tried the full top-end rush yet.

Well, no, because I couldn't see the point of doing that in first gear, while I'd be doing well over 100mph at red-line even in second - and we were still on near-city roads with 55mph speed limits. Just seemed rude.

I have taken a look at your intro thread. Sounds like you were quite into bikes if you went to the trouble of putting your CB750F2 engine into a Rickman chassis. That would have been a much admired sporting ride, I imagine.

So as others have said, obviously all the Monster options are open to you.

OTOH, from the specs anyway, the 696 will offer a bit more torque, power and revs than your Rickman Honda, with a lot less weight and better steering, braking and handling.

If you did keep the bike a long time, you could get value out of upgrading the suspension. To beyond "Evo" levels if you wished.

I'm not intending to push this. Just pointing out possibilities.

Me? I have an S4Rs, which I love, but if buying new now for solo use would probably go for a 796 and do the suspension. And I'm not seat-height challenged. The S4Rs is lovely on the open road but not much fun in town. And even out of town, I never use all the revs nor all the throttle. (Might be different if I were chasing people on good mountain roads, but where I am now there aren't any.)

Dear Ducattzi and Monster-afficionado's all ...

Well, the popular vote is in : Duchess should get
 - the 796 with the lower seat option (either Ducati or aftermarket)
 - request the 14T option
 - decide about Termi - not essential, but may help smooth out the bottom end.
 - consider swapping out the suspension for an Ohlin's set up for her weight range

The general feeling on the 696 is "fun bike, probably a step up from what you had before, but possible to outgrow, and for a few dollars more on the 796, probably worth the step up, even if it means having to lower it to be comfortable.

For the 1100evo - its a lot of bike, and at risk for being not so much fun, as its pretty near impossible to take advantage of the extra power in normal road use, and a liability around town. The better suspension is nice, but possibly a lot of the adjustment isn't usable for her weight range and riding solo.  If the evo, then the stock pipes/power are good and no reason to consider termi's.

So - I go armed (with knowledge, I'm leaving the guns behind) and interested into the next round of interviews and test rides at dealerships ...

Duchess

actually
2 changes

- the Ducati lower seat is wider and may cause issues with your hip. better to keep the stock seat or go with a custom seat.

and

-lower the suspension with the 696 rear clevis and pull the forks through a bit. (like a 20 dollar mod!)

Please keep this thread to moto content.

As you said...we have a gun thread in NMC.

Thanks.

I've been following this thread since the beginning and have read Duchess's intro. Welcome, you are a great addition to the board. At the risk of going the wrong direction, how about a used 900? O and by the way, love those shoes. [drink]

Take the guns with you. You might get a better deal...






 ;D

This is just conversation until you ride the bikes. Pity that you couldn't ride that used 796 with 14T which "gmerri" had for 400 miles as I'd doubt you'd have the feeling that you would likely ever outride that bike in stock trim.

I'm repeating myself... Have the dealer back off the preload so that you don't have a rigid rear end. See where that leaves you. Possibly you'll be low enough for comfort. If you then find the Sachs spring/shock combo not nearly as nice as the stock forks, you can fit a "cheap" Ohlins with a spring and damping custom built for your light weight and riding style. ~$625 and no extra charge from Ohlins in NC for putting one together for you.

A low DP seat has less foam. As you are 5' 8", try a plain Sargent seat. It's flatter and won't force you onto the faux tank as much. You can send it back if you don't prefer it over the stock seat which is already allegedly better than the 696 seat.

Termi kit for $1,600 to make it "maybe" a bit smoother?! First you have to break the bike in. 1,200 miles and the throttle glitch goes away and it runs a lot smoother. 58 ft lbs and 87 BHP is no slouch already.

IMO try the bike stock with the sag set up for your weight before you consider changing the ride height. Sure, it might work, but it might also alter the geometry which is already quite nice.

Your call...

PS. I quite like my Tech Spec tank pads for staying off the tank in slow traffic and the Rizoma bar I had fitted has a nicer wrist angle and allows a slightly more upright seating position. It's still aggressive though. Talk to me again if you don't understand what I'm saying. Had all this stuff fitted to mine before I picked it up "'cause this ain't my first rodeo" and I knew exactly what the bike needed for MY use!  ;)

Doing the paper comparison of the 796 and the 2002 900ie:

900ie is 40 lbs heavier, lacks ABS, has a dry clutch, and is down on power (87 from the 800 vs 78 from the 900) and torque (80 from the 800 vs 73 from the 900) ..

so I'm not that interested, particularly as the 900 didn't come in the color combination I want (that's important !)

does show that the 796 is likely no slouch, as it out specs the previous bigger bike by a handy margin ...

Duchess

Be careful making comparisons regarding power from new to old bikes.

Somewhere around 2003, I think, Ducati started measuring power numbers at the crank.

That 900 was measured at the rear wheel...there are lots of systems to rob power in between.

As far as color...last I checked DuPont and PPG were still making paint. ;D

Thanks Ducpainter ... helpful to know that Ducati switched measurement systems. Keeps us Noobs guessing, I suppose ...

counting down until I actually get to ride a couple of test bikes, then this all stops being theoretical and starts being real -- as Curmudgeon keeps telling me  ;)

I'm touring a couple dealerships over the weekend - Commonwealth in Louisville on Saturday and back up to Chicago on Monday .. so "real soon now"  (LOL, that's what Microsoft sales people used to say when asked for "when will the bug fix be released")

PS - sorry about the side track into guns  :-[

 

Well, I was riding to work this morning and it popped into my head that I'd said I would probably go for a 796. Possibly in my mind because I can still remember pulling up next to a new EVO on the same route a few months ago, first I'd seen in the flesh, and being a bit shocked at how good I thought it looked. Anyway, I was putting along at 45mph on the S4Rs and asking myself whether I'd really go for a 796 if I had the option of an 1100 EVO. Concluded that if it was my money that I was spending, I probably would get the EVO.

So there you go. All that hot air wasted about how great the 796 would be.  ;D

Not difficult to fathom in view of the fact that you're on an S4Rs now. An EVO might even be "civilized".  ;)

Maybe when you're older? 8)

Ha Ha.

Truth is I'm probably a bit out of touch. I've ridden a 620 and a 696, but not far in either case. I can remember putting quite a few miles on a 900SS and a 750SS (Terblanche models) over successive weeks, and thinking how much more fun the 750 was in town. But I can't remember accurately how they felt on the highway.

In theory I like the less-is-more approach. Always have. And given the higher running costs of the S4Rs, I sometimes find it painfully ironic that I rarely ask it for more than 100hp, which I could get more cheaply from an EVO or 1100 "S". I am paying in money and hassle for potential I never use.

But there is something about how easily the S4Rs does it all on the open highway ... below 100mph she never breaks out of a canter.

Sitting at the keyboard, it is easy to forget how seductive that ease can be. Get back in touch with it, riding the bike, and all of a sudden any price is worth paying ...  [Dolph]

Right. Everything is totally subjective, especially with toys. I had a 4V too, so I understand seductive. The 2V has more of a heartbeat.

796 is noticeably healthier than a 696 IMO. EVO is excess, if that's what gets your blood flowing.  ;) I'm aware of the canter you mention as my son has an ST4s. He's not using much of that 916 top end either, but it can loaf along at 35 more easily than my 796.

In my case, the 796 was purchased as a nimble but more upright replacement for my old tuned 600 SL Pantah. It's just as nimble. and being modern, more stable and very confidence-inspiring. The 796 has a bit more punch but is less turbine-like.

I've rarely done 100 with it. Normally more like 50 - 80 on entertaining roads. 796 is a very low effort proposition and I'm rarely using 80% of its capability. The EVO would be more work I'd imagine. THAT I don't need.

As always..., whatever rings your bell !!!  ;)

Well ......

Went down to Commonwealth Moto in Louisville KY this morning and tried out bikes in their showroom, paying particular attention to comfort and fit.

and the results are in ...

3rd place: 696 ... although that had the lower seat height, the peg position put's my hip at a more extreme angle. SO although I could "flat foot" it, it was not as comfortable as ...

2nd place: 796 ... the bike I thought (hoped) would fit the best, didn't. Better than the 696, but something just wan't working with my hip angle, and also the height of the bars wasn't comfortable.  We put the touring seat on, and that actually made things worse

so ... drum roll please:

1st place: 1100 evo ... was the most comfortable... The bigger engine creates a bigger platform, which means that none of my joints (ankle / knee / hip / back / shoulder / elbow / wrist ..) are at uncomfortable angles.

Obviously that's just static in the showroom, but we spent an hour going from one to another and the fit improvement on the 1100 evo was noticeable every time

so - big bad monster for me ...  :) ...

plan from here - next weekend I take the Returning Riders course and get my Endorsement - and also find out what my hip thinks of 2 days of 6 hours in the saddle (on a motor school bike  8) ) ... then back to the dealership  to road test the 1100evo ...

then the only question is "to tweak or not to tweak" ... and anticipating your answer on THAT one, all you tweakers out there, the answer is "YES" and "how much" ...  I'm thinking fender eliminator, frame and axle slides, and debating "to termi, or not to termi" ?

I read through the exhaust post in the Accessories and Mods, but there is not much written up on the 1100 Evo... anyone out there want to weigh in on stock vs. termi for an 2012 1100evo, I'll post a separate thread over in Accessories ...

Duchess

That makes sense

the 796 has a better seat than the 696. I've thought about finding a 796 seat to see the difference.

the evo has new foot peg position and seat so definitely better ergos resulted.

but as far as I knew, the frame/tank/size are the same.

Dealer said "bigger platform leading to revised peg positions which is giving you a better fit" ... so that is what I'm going by ... maybe the frame / tank are the same, but the position of the peg differs ? 

Anyway, the evo was a noticeably better fit than the other two ... so going with what my butt tells me :)

no for sure. go with that one.

just thinking how to make the other two the same fit for others in similar situation. I'm thinking the pegs, seat and bars.

Rules for long distance cycling : if your butt ain't happy, ain't nobody happy ....

... and I guess that goes for the lower back, too, in spades :)

I guess you could fit higher raise bars to the 796 to bring it closer to the evo, but I don't know about how to change peg positions ...

still debating stock cans vs. termi's, though ...

keep it stock through the first service at 600 to get a feel. you might be totally happy

Duchess,

Guess you didn't get my PM?

The 796 has a 20mm higher bar riser than the EVO. There is no other difference I'm aware of between the two but would need a tape measure to tell. Peg height looks about the same per the Ducati website. Any difference in foot control position is adjustable anyway.

Also sitting on the showroom floor with the spring preload set for ~ 225 lbs rather than your 150, your derriere is higher than it's going to be, so the angles are off.

Possibly the cases are ~ 1" wider??? Can't see how that would help your hip.

IMO, for what that's worth, you still will know little until you ride the bikes. The static seat/bar/peg relationship is no more relevant than it would be on a bicycle. You need to ride one of those too before you can fine-tune the fit. (Ask me how I know this privately.  ;))

As for performance mods, you might want to break the bike in first so that you know what, if anything, you need.

PS Consider a Rizoma bar and Sargent saddle. I'm done... [coffee]

This is what I'm doing. Seems like a sensible approach.

Duchess, I have to say that the EVO 1100 is cleary the best of the breed and clearly a Bike I lust after. Having said that, I have put some miles on every Monster model except the 400, not every year mind you, but every model and I have to tell you that my 02 M900 is my favorite and on a back country mountain road -those are the roads I travel - I'm more at home, more comfortable, and in the zone than I am on any of my other bikes. Not so on the track, but on those roads and on multiple day trips the M900 is great. Cycle cate rear sets, Gen Mar Bar Risers, Sargent seat, single rate rear spring, and Race Tech improved front end. BTW the City version also solves the luggage question and can be setup pretty nicely, they are getting old at this point but still some good examples around. Whatever you decide on I hope you have one hell of a good time and have that ear-to-ear grin that most of us treasure every time we get on our Monsters. - Gene

According to cycle-ergo. At her 5'8 with 30 inch inseam:

1) Evo - 82degree knee angle with 29degree forward lean
2) 796 - 79degree knee angle with 24degree forward lean

TL;DR = 796 has a more upright position.

Hello Gene,

Out of curiosity just had to look yours up. Seems the specs of the M900ie and 796 are very close although they produce the power differently. Yours is 100cc larger with 9.2:1 compression ratio whereas the 796 does it with new heads and 11.1 +/- 0,2:1. If what ducpainter says about the change in the way Ducati quotes BHP, your 78 and my 87 are probably close. Rake and seat height are also the same but your rear tire is 170 vs 180. Curb weight is close too. Quite a few upgrades on the 796 from the EVO of course.

xsephirot,

That's a fun site http://cycle-ergo.com/ (http://cycle-ergo.com/) and I used it to build mine but not all their base numbers are accurate, so you have to adjust them. It was useful to compare with my current and older bikes and see where I'd be with a Sargent seat and Rizoma bar. At 5' 8" with a 29" inseam, after correcting for the site's seat height error, that yields a knee angle of 79 with a lean angle of 18 degrees with my mods. I could still use another 10mm of rise, but can't do that unless I swap out the 796 rise for an EVO clamp and then use a 30mm riser extender. Not worth the effort IMO. And..., higher than 10mm additional rise begins to block visibility of the instrument pod and might also begin to throw off the weight distribution.

With my exhaust and ecu I think it's a little stronger. However, HP is such a deceiving thing it's a shame so many are enamored with it. IMHO, it's more about balance, the whole package if you will. My S2R1000 is very quick on the track with all the mods I've made, it will keep this slightly overweight old fart in the hunt. But it really is at a disadvantage on the street, the power and light weight conspire to make the bike harder to ride quickly out in the mountains. If and when I get an EVO 1100, wheels/exhaust will remain stock and other mods will be minimal, I'll spend all that money saved for additional paint kits and luggage for trips. Hope to take the M900 out this week and for sure out to the MotoGP viewing at DucPond this weekend. - Gene

Cool site - cycle-ergo !   ;D

I think what I'm most sensitive to in the bike fit is the knee angle because of my arthritis in the hip. The evo has the most relaxed knee postion at 82 (vs 79 or 75 depending - they have the seat height wrong on the 796).

The degree of upper body lean (29 on the evo plays 24 on the 796 or 22 on the 696) really doesn't phase me, because I'm used to cycling (push bike style) either "in the drops" on my road bike, or down on my tri-bars on my triathlon bike - when you only have a 1/3 rd hp to play with, it pays to go aero :-) ... also, my last motorcycle, the Rickman CRE, had clip on's and a very aggresive "lay on the tank" position.

The "knee compressed, body upright" doesn't feel as comfortable as the "knee relaxed, body leaned forward" ...

I guess if leaning forward on the evo becomes a problem, I could always fit bar raisers (I think rizoma does them in varying heights).   But "fixing" the knee angle on the 796 would involve raising the seat, which would compromise me being able to reach the ground when stopped, or shifting the foot peg, which would be a pain ...

Would be fun to get a tape measure to my road bike (cycle) and see what the angles are - I had a professional "bike fit" done on that one ... but the aim was to get the best blend between aero position, power output and comfort ... so not necessarily what I would have if comfort were the only variable.

But this is FUN - I love being able to see the numbers and see that there is science behind the subjective fit.  Thank you again, xsephirot ...

BTW, next steps for me:

This week I take my rider course, to re-qualify for my motor cycle endorsement. That is Wednesday evening class room, followed by 12 hours practical - 6 hours Saturday and 6 hours Sunday.

That will tell me if my hip is *really* up to a return to motorcycling, or if this just a day dream ..

Then back to the dealer for test rides - he has at least a 696 and a 1100 evo as demo bikes, and may have a 796 by then (he didn't have the 796 as a demo this weekend). Then its make my mind up time ...

Duchess

If you need more factors.... aftermarket true rearsets can open up your hip joint.

Goes like this:
same height + rear = more open hip joint, but sharper knee angle
same height + forward = less open hip joint, but more open knee angle
lower height + rear = more open hip joint and same or more open knee angle

"lower height + rear = more open hip joint and same or more open knee angle" - Yep and my pegs did not drag any sooner when I was still using my M900 on the track. S2R stock pegs are in a different position entirely.  Gene

Rear sets ... thanks, but probably not - don't want the extra cost, complexity, linkages, extended brake lines, ... yada yada yada ..

With 3 monsters and a couple of seat height options, I'll just get the monster that fits me, rather than getting a monster that doesn't fit and then adjusting the heck out of it...

As you have all pointed out, there is more than enough power in any of the three engines for what I want to do, so for me the choice is down to ergonomics and drivability. I'll get the Monster that fits me best and that I enjoy riding, and live with the engine that comes with it, rather than buying the engine, then having to futz with the bike to get it to fit..  ABS is available across the line and nothing else is a deal breaker for me at this stage.

Duchess

Hello Gene,

Was just looking for a nimble package to replace my Pantah, but without the road race ergos. In the twisties, at least with me, torque in the midrange is what counts. So, sure, we were after the same target. 40 - 80 is still mighty brisk with mine and I'll not be needing to use 8,500+ much.  ;)

Moto GP? Ask Donnie what he thinks about mine.  8) Say hello to Nathan too! I'm surprised so many of you can get a free pass on Easter! Will probably ride into Richmond in the AM and see if many bikes show for "Bikes in the Bottom". Would be at least a couple of hundred except for the holiday. If I get back in time, I'll watch on Speedvision. WSBK is more my thing and did watch Imola last Sunday. Checa did WELL.  :) Can't get the holeshot, so he made his pass at 2/3 in both motos and steamed away. There's a reason he has that title!

As I mentioned to you before, I have enough "go" and fueling is dandy from ~ 4,000 - 4,5000. Not bad but a touch lean below 4.000, so will get some Dynojet O2 optimizers if Donnie approves. The bike doesn't need to be any louder! ;) Only wish Duc Pond weren't 140 miles from here. (I have GOOD roads though from here all the way out to the Blue Ridge Parkway!)

Question: Is having a fender eliminator installed considered a "tail chop"? I know it removes parts of the rear, obviously the fender, but a true tail chop cuts some of the rear of the seat off too? Just wondering...

Also if you were considering the comfort seat - good option - it raises the seat height by a little bit as well.
But for me meant a 800 klm ride didn't make me walk like john Wayne. Well worth it

The point is to remove stuff. The older bikes had to have metal cut - on the new bikes it's just plastic. It doesn't usually involve cutting into the seat.

The true tail chop involved cutting off the metal tubing extensions of the rear frame. Those extensions supported what was known as a "beer tray".  The newer bikes don't come with that so all the fender eliminator is doing is cleaning up the license plate & turn signal appendage. In either case, as was said previously, no seat cutting is done.

Well, plans move slowly forward -
...  invested the weekend at Balance Dynamics Motorcycle Training getting my MSF Basic rider certificate ....
...  which qualifies me to trade my Ohio Learners Permit for a full Motorcycle Endorsement, when I ....
...  fax the paperwork in then ....
...  get to the DMV and get my new license which is a ....

...  necessary prerequisite to be able to do test rides at the dealership, which is the next step to ....

...  choosing the right monster for me !

then its only a matter of ....
...  order lead times ....
...  dealer prep times ....
...  enduring through 1,500 miles of stalling and misery before it starts to get settled down and run properly ....

before I start to to enjoy it ....

 [bang] Duchess ...

Be sure to check your insurance; they may not cover you for any test rides and frequently the dealers don't, either. Kinda leaves a rider in a spot. Better to know beforehand then after the fact.

Sounds like you're in for some serious fun, though.  [thumbsup]

I think you will enjoy the hell out of it immediately!!! And you can just know it will only get better with time...

Believe me, there is a lot more to the first 1500 miles than stalling and misery. A lot of smiles will also be part of the mix.

Okay, there is a bit of crankiness to deal with, along with a few random stalls as you slow down for a stop sign (four times so far for me). But these minor annoyances are swept away by the performance of the machine. Once you are in the twisties, you will know that it was all worth it.

Here's an example for you: As I was sweeping along a canyon section this last weekend in perfect conditions, I realized that I was having a magical experience. And the bonus is all of those "That's a beautiflu bike" comments that seem like they're part of every fuel stop.

So just focus on the enjoyment.  [thumbsup] [Dolph]

Well,

What can I say. I finally got my test ride on an 2012 1100 evo and I hated it.

Nasty, brutal, lumpy, jerky, noisy, recalcitrant, stupid engine. Stalled on me twice. Wouldn't run clean at ANY rpm and was dire below 4,000. Then when I got it out onto the twisties and up above 60mph, I was totally disappointed in the handling. The thing would NOT lean into a bend - desired only to stay upright. And the wind buffeting, combined with the awful vibration through the bars made me desperate to get off and hand the keys back to the dealer.

No way, no how

:-(  Duchess

You rode an EVO fresh out of the crate with no miles I gather?  8) Not sure what was going on with the handling. Tire pressures maybe and stock suspension set-up isn't very good for a 150 lb. solo rider.

So what else did you ride? My 796 goes where you "think" it effortlessly. Even that took 100+ miles to smooth out. Each bike varies a bit though.

It had 8 miles on it when I started, 58 when I finished. The handling was "firm" I guess. I had to use a lot of weight and "lean" to get it to corner. It just wanted to go in a straight line. Din't feel like tire pressure issue. Felt more like an over large rear tire.

What else did I ride ?

I took out a Triumph Street Triple R (675cc I-3) - what a difference !  Smooth linear engine response, virtually no vibration, "telepathic" handling, an LCD display that was legible in bright afternoon sun and had useful information on it, slick gear changes....  I was very tempted to buy the Brit, except I kept wanting to change up to 7th or 8th ... engine was smooth but way too rev happy

Finally (and here is the payoff I was saving until I slept on it) I rode an '04 S4R.  Not just any old S4R, this was a pretty one in blue and white, with wait for it, ONLY 27 miles on it !!!  Guy had bought it as a Museum piece and it had only been ridden from the dealer to the collectors garage, and then put on display.

What a difference between the S4R and the 1100evo. The S4R engine was running happily from the get-go, the handling was what I expected - a nice blend of stability in the straights and liveliness in the bends. I felt 'at home' on it within the first 100 yards. And I really like the blue/white compared to the red.

Just to make sure, I re-tested the 1100evo after riding the S4R - and yup, the evo was as nasty as ever, even though it now had more miles on it than the S4R.

So now is the question - would I be making a dreadful mistake to buy the S4R (dry clutch, no ABS, no DTC, and yet, so much better than the evo) and what should I look out for on a bike that has been sitting for nearly a decade ?

Duchess

At least an '04 might have a metal tank, so you wouldn't have the E10/water issue to deal with. 4V bikes are smoother but with a loss of character, and they go too fast... ;) You'd have absolutely no clue how fast you're moving.  [leo] Really...

No idea how the bike was stored. At the least it needs new Kevlar belts, Rosso II's, and every fluid flushed and renewed. An S4R needs a Sargent seat too and it doesn't exactly match the cutouts in the tank. http://www.sargentcycle.com/ducwsmonster.htm (http://www.sargentcycle.com/ducwsmonster.htm)

It's 4V and water-cooled, so expect ~ 50% more servicing cost every 6,000 rather than 7,500 miles. You need an experienced dealer for 4V too.

While not perfect, the new bikes have a lot of upgraded components and ought to be more reliable. Lots of people here can tell you where any weak points are in this vintage but you might need to ask in Tech.

Never bothered to ride an EVO myself, so I'm still having trouble understanding the handling you describe. My 796 is definitely "telepathic" and others here with new 796's have reported the same. After break-in, I also get insignificant vibration through my bars but the bike has a definite heartbeat. I also have 58 ft. lbs vs the Street Triple's 50 and much lower down the rev range. Do you really need more than 87 crank BHP in a 400 lb bike?

As you noted, Ducati DOES have very good, non-intrusive ABS.

Only you can decide. See what other input you get.

I firmly believe you should buy what feels right.  I'm partial to my S4R with a metal tank of course but ABS and those goodies are a personal decision.  I grew up on dirt bikes so sliding my tires and locking my brakes doesn't make me panic unless there's a car in front.  ;D

Curmudgeon,

Thanks for the hints.  I've done a bit of digging and I see a couple of reasons why the S4R is so much better than the EVO ...
a) It has a full Sil Moto Exhuast with carbon pipes and remapped ECU ... that would be equivalent to the Termi's and explain a bit of the smoother running vs. the evo which has stock pipes, ECU and cat converters
b) The S4R has a 42T rear sprocket, vs the 39T on the EVO .. this is the final drive ratio you guys are emulating with the 14T front sprocket on the newer bikes (just a better execution to do it at the rear wheel)
c) The S4R has a marginally shorter wheelbase (56.7 vs 57.1) and Showa vs the Marzochi/Sachs on the evo ..

So its better breathing, better fueled and better geared ... and was originally a more expensive bike ($13.5K in '04 vs $12K in '12)

Still doesn't explain the handling - maybe the magnesium marchesini wheels are lighter and contribute to a lower unsprung weight and lower turning forces ?  Or the shorter wheelbase on the S4R is making the difference ?

Looking at the above, I could mod the evo to add the termi's, get the logomania kit to turn it blue and white, powder coat the wheels white, put the 14T gear on it, take it through the break in period and I'd have a bike that would be performing similar to how the S4R is now.

I guess I really fell in love, huh ?

The difference in purchase price more than covers a new seat and the extra service costs...

I rest my case  [Dolph]


Strange thing about the handling experience. The 696, 796 and 1100 are not normally conceived as hard to turn. Maybe the evo ergos makes you sit/think/act in a counterproductive way - if so, we're back at the statements I quoted you on.

Dealer warranty for a few months would be nice - against surprises with seals, gaskets, rubber hoses ...

 Have the dealer ride the evo then let him fix the thing.  something isnt set up right

 [laugh] 9 pages of the 'new-gen'-monster-guys trying to convince you what you want ... a hundred yards on a 'classic' and you're sold [evil]

I am not intending to make this an old vs. new style argument (just some gentle piss-taking [cheeky]).

If you can absorb the extra maintenance costs ... the 4 valves are actually pretty easy to live with. Power is only an issue if you show no respect - clutch could be a bit heavy in traffic, but there are options to help there. Even with the protruding fridge the blue and white is dead sexy.

If you are enamoured with the S4R ... the only thing you need to do is have it serviced and enjoy the ride ;D

Was the price reasonable on the S4R?  If so, get it!  It sounds like a beautiful bike.

Old monsters rule. Lot more pretty
I'm gonna say told ya

Ok maybe I'm in a bad mood but this is all bs
a full setup s4r vs a stock obviuosly poorly setup evo
and you're going to say winner?
Set th bikes up the same with the same amount of money put into them msrp wise not used vs new and the evo will not only surprise but win
the new monster will and does handle better
power wise you're going to sit there and say its even clos to a fair fight with a 4v vs 2v
put this as an s4r vs a sf and then talk shit

I see your point and am sure you are right.

Will a dealer slap a $2000 exhaust system on for the sake of comparison?  They won't here.

I won't argue with this but will counter by saying ... they handle differently - not necessarily better.

We ride differently and have different experiences and conditioning. The geometry and handling of one bike may be 'better' but it just may never feel 'right' for someone else.

I didn't mean to start an "old vs new" holy war.

For me,  the ergonomics and economics work in favor of an S4R with full exhaust system, full carbon, pretty colors, the right gear ratios, ... yada yada ... that costs less than half what it would cost me to set the Evo up the same way.

I have good reason to believe that if I bought the Evo (11,000 after discount), added termi's (2,000), re-geared it, added carbon (1000) and blue/white skins (1000) that I would end up with a bike that would be just as good or better than the S4R I'm looking at. But then I would be at twice the $$ cost to me.

So the bikes are  probably equivalent functionally, or the Evo has points in its favor. BUT the S4R appeals to my heart in a way that the Evo doesn't (I love the "real" gauges, for example, compared to the "digital" on the Evo).

And this is all about the heart, nicht wahr ? Otherwise we would all be riding Honda's ...

Duchess

Please post pictures when you get it!

+1

Again, get what feels right and always respect the bike or she'll reach out and bite you.

 8)

Ask the guys here whether the flaking rockers were fixed by 2004 and let them tell you about gauge and immobilizer issues with that set-up. Could be fine, but you have more reading to do.  ;)

 [thumbsup] This...

Mine will and does. Almost got even MORE deaf (if that's possible) riding behind one on a demo ride. ;D

There comes a point when you need to stop listening to people and just go with your heart.

Well, three points from me this time.

1. I've not ridden one of the new 1100s but from looking and hearing they turn quicker and easier than the older style bikes. So, the EVO you rode was weird.

2. In another thread we looked at the power curves and it turned out the EVO would better any of the four-valve Monsters to 8000rpm or so, both in stock trim.

3. As the owner of an older-style 4-valve Monster, I can understand your instant infatuation with the S4R. With no previous use and at half the price of the EVO fully kitted, it is implausibly attractive. If it really does exist, then God wants you to have it. Do not invite plagues and pestilence by passing this one up. (I was going to recommend you try a 4Rs but you won't find one like that.) 8)

Quote from: Raux on Today at 11:18:20 AM
the new monster will and does handle better


Try one. I'm pretty sure they're flat better because new Monsters aren't parts bin bikes. My 796 is more nimble and more planted than my 851 was. Possibly the 4V higher center of gravity plays into that. My 796 feels more like my tuned 600 SL..., only FAR less likely to dump you if you screw up.  ;) And THAT was what I was really after in the first place...

Duchess--- sorry wasn't meant for you. Your experience with the evo certainly isn't reflective of the new bike so I was ticked that someone would use it as a slam against the new monster. The S4R does sound like a great bike and certainly sounds like someone put a good deal of time and money into it, If you can get it for a good price, enjoy their efforts for sure. Cost wise, you're right, the evo will take some money to get to the same level of detail the S4R already has.

Duchess - I recently went through the same process you're going through now. Regarding the general roughness of the EVO vs the smoothness and reviness of the Street Triple, this thread has a lot of related info:

http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=54877.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=54877.0)

The first time I rode the EVO I didn't like it either. I stalled it, the power delivery scared me, and I was generally uncomfortable with it's cranky manners. I complained to the dealer about the lean fueling and the tall gearing, and decided that maybe I was barking up the wrong tree.

Then I rode the Street Triple for comparison, and thought I might be in love, so I started the thread referenced above.

So I went back for a second round on the EVO and, in the end, I had to go with my heart, which was the big Duc.

Just know one thing... The EVO handles superbly in the valleys and canyons. What you describe is not normal, and I would go back to the dealer and try a different machine, or have them make sure the demo is set-up right. You will see it in a better new light.

But that S4R sounds like the find of a lifetime, so there's that. Of course, it should really be compared to the Streetfighter, and the new 848 is just about to hit the showrooms.   

I know they are not quite the same but I spent a couple of days on the 1100 when it first came out a few years ago ... and just didn't like the way it 'felt'. The Boss rode the 696 at the same time and she had the same complaints. Of course the 'weird feeling' that we felt was probably only 'better' handling but our conditioning led us to not 'fall in love'. Interestingly I had a short ride on the Streetfighter at the same time ... and to ME it 'felt' much closer to perfect from the beginning.

Like I said before I was not intending to start a new vs old argument ... it was just an opportunity too good to pass up. You guys provided so much info to the Duchess to convince her that I hope you can see the irony in her falling for a different bike.

Hello Betty (? 8)),

Irony? After 40 years in high-line car sales, nothing surprises me. You can only ask what the "mission" might be and recommend accordingly. If the clients don't take the advice and order something totally unsuitable, after the first few years I just learned to take the $$$.  ;) Some would return for the right toy later, remembering what I'd advised. Some would just buy something totally different and blame the product rather than their decision. Such is life..., and now VERY glad I'm retired.

From what you are saying I presume you are "conditioned" to a higher center of gravity and are less comfortable with a "fighter plane". The 4V has definitely a lot more weight higher up as does the SF with more "dirt bike" riding position and I presume a longer bar with more leverage. If you read the intro threads, there's a rider who just sold his S2R1K and commented how much smoother and more nimble his new 796 feels.

So sure, I understand "feel" and you have to go with what feels right to you. Did you grow up on Jap multis? THEY have a high center of gravity and having grown up mostly on Ducatis and BMWs, I could never get on with them.

The 4V lacks some character but I agree is addictive. What I found confounding was the OP's comment that the EVO wouldn't steer while the S4R would! Something NOT right there. Even Ash's reviews of the new Monsters note the sensitive steering. It isn't nervous though or I'd be no fan either. VERY hard to knock the new ones off line, even on bad bridge transitions and the like. As "thought" said when he traded his 796 for an SF...,  ;D http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=55287.msg1027711;topicseen#msg1027711 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=55287.msg1027711;topicseen#msg1027711)

Nope, never even ridden one. Although nothing like your experience, I have ridden a range of (mostly small capacity) bikes and scooters but only ever 'owned' my Ducatis. Oh and I probably still have a lot of growing up to do.

Just remembering our experience on the new-gen Monsters ... it was not the front end (steering?) that we had a problem with - it was the rear. The older Monsters have a greater rear-weight bias in comparison and neither of us liked that light rear end feeling - to the extent the Boss got off thinking the rear tyres were no good. It just didn't feel right to us.

Interestingly the experienced Superbike riders we spoke to at the time said they much preferred the new-gen Monsters as they 'felt' more like the Superbikes they were used to.

Technically your recommendations may be spot on but perception and confidence are more important for the individual. Perhaps the Evo Duchess tried was setup wrong or that the S4R had been 'tweaked' (perhaps accidentally) but perfectly for the way she likes to ride ... regardless, that initial 'felt' wrong or 'felt' right perception may ultimately prevail. If it gives her the confidence to state it is the perfect bike for her then we need to acknowledge that only she knows what 'feels' right for her and wish her good luck and happy motoring.


I don't think that is the case here.


OK now I am a little confused. I won't disagree that the EVO may not be setup right (who knows?). But correct me if I'm wrong ... you are trying to state a case for how well the new-gen Monsters steer but say they are 'VERY hard to knock off line' - is that not the basic premise of counter-steering? Perhaps this is the way Duchess has interpreted her experience.

Betty,

Doesn't get knocked off line = holds the line while leaned over and hitting a rude BIG bump or transition = pretty damn good manners.  ;) Sorry for the confusion.

BTW, Duchess came here asking for input and gave her riding background and experience, so..., I do believe the "case" is similar. http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=55878.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=55878.0)

That's a good point you make about the weight bias on the older bikes although the geometry on paper is similar. I'm aware they're more wheelie-prone. Others can correct me but I believe they were built up from the parts bin onto an 851 frame. Not sure what Ducati were trying to do there. The 851 (or at least mine) had a fairly planted front end. It DID have a higher center of gravity than a Pantah, so I never did push mine as hard..., but the damn thing was FAST.  ;) Finally sold it before the tree with my name on it could claim me!

Did you ever ride dirt bikes? Generally you want the front end to bite and have a secure rear which can slide controlably if things get ugly. A front end which pushes is scary. My skill level was never so great that I felt I could control that! Had a Paso Limited which never did, but had a reputation for pushing. That 16" wheel was GP practice for a few years, but as you say, never "felt" right. To repeat, losing the front end is generally terminal.  :'(

Good for you that you've not grown up! Body parts falling off all over the place here but once I'm settled on the bike, still ride more or less as if I were 40..., or at least my 34-year-old son claims I do on the 796. Not so much on the T-100 though.  :)

Where in OZ? Good riding weather still down there? Freezing nights just departing here with a WARM weekend in store!

If you're pushing anywhere near that hard on the streets then you need to take it to the track. I seriously doubt duchess and 95% of this forum pushes that hard. And even then the evo or any monster for that matter wouldn't be the ideal track rat.

Ok here are more details on my lovely S4R.


Q) Ask the owner what tweaks are on the bike – what did he do above Stock ?  From what I researched on line, the S4R came with a lot of the carbon, but you said it had a full Sil Moto Carbon exhaust. What else – air filter and ECU to match the Exhaust ?  Other tweaks and changes ?

A) carbon on radiator, chain guard, chain, clutch slave cyl. Fast by Ferraci air box mod, stock ecu with  powercommander, Sil Moto full system, CRG levers, carbon Accusato quick release gas cap, coated tank to prevent rust from fuel contaminants.


Q2)      Detail what was done to prep the bike for sale – I think you said new fluids, new belts, new tires … could you confirm the work done

A) The bike had all fluids flushed, new tires mounted, new timing belts, new battery etc. Basically a full service for a bike that sat for that period of time.

Q3) When the oil was changed, was it possible to remove oil drain plug and oil filter without removing the exhaust (I read that there may be an issue with the Sil Moto full system running too close to the oil drain plug)

A) No, the exhaust has to be removed to perform this service.

Q4)     What recalls have there been for the ‘04 S4R and have they applied to this particular bike

There are no outstanding recalls or campaigns on this bike

So i have yet to ask the question on rocker, gauges and immobilizers but all seems well so far. 

Maybe it's not perfect, but for 50% of what a modded evo would cost me it's looking pretty good.

Very thorough Dutchess. 
Good luck with your decision.  Choose what inspires you and remember everyone here has a favorite so take some comments, process and decide for yourself. 

To talk about my impression of the handling...

I was test riding all these bikes on River Road which has gentle bends and curves, plus up a few roads at right angles to River Road that climbed up the valley sides. So tight curves and steep climbs.

The evo was very planted. It wanted to go straight ahead and the amount of effort required to make it lean through the bends surprised me. Not that it wouldn't or didn't , it just took effort.

Up the steep and twisty valley sides I was taking it slow and steering with the bars not by body lean, and here again it took more effort.

The S4R by contrast responded to exactly the level of effort I gave it and went exactly where I told it to go.

Maybe the Evo is "good handling" and shows it will not easily be knocked off course and it is I as rider that needs to adapt.

Maybe I'm conditioned by bikes from the 80's and the S4R just feels more natural, the way listening to vinyl played through speakers sounds more natural to me than mp3s played through earplugs. You can argue all you like about theoretical sound purity but I still will like my vinyl and NAC135 mono block power amps.

Maybe the ease of being able to control what the engine was doing was a factor. As I was fighting the evos engine, I wasn't able to use engine power to control the curves. As I was able to relax and use the S4Rs engine, that fed into the handling equation also.

So far no one has told me that the S4R is a death trap. In fact you say it has LESS power than the EVO and that the EVO is overpowered for my needs. So that makes the S4R better by your own logic.

I'm still at the point of 'this is going to cost me about the same as I would pay for a well spec'd 09 696, and less than half what I would pay for a similarly spec'd 2012 EVO'.

And I like it better.

And it's pretty.

Maybe I'll buy this one AND a Honda 4 cyl for when it rains AND a scooter for commuting into town And still have money left over. Now there's a thought.

Duchess.

Was really hoping that the experts here would chime in on this stuff but it seems you'll need to use the search function instead. Mostly it's all here but you'll have to dig for it.

This "effort" you describe to get the EVO to turn is NOT normal. "L-Twin" confirms above. My 796 has the same frame and you'll find plenty of other impressions from other multiple Ducati owners recently. When you want to turn MY bike, you need only "think" in that direction, and that's where it goes. (Tiny countersteering input no doubt but almost unconscious.) That's what "Raux" was also telling you.

As for resisting being deflected, that's just a good chassis. Nothing to do with steering. If anything, it's very close to the bicycle-like flicking that I used to be able to do with my 1981 Pantah. LOTS of old bikes used to handle this way. Even my 1978 R100RS Motorsport did after Reg Pridmore was done with it, but THAT bike used to scare the bejesus out of the uninitiated who tried it because it changed direction SOOO quickly.

OK, this is an S4Rs, but are you SURE you know what you are letting yourself in for?  ;D (Rhetorical)

Ducati Monster S4RS on Interstate 70 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFr-l_IQgRw#)

Rocker arms were an issue on the 916-engine of the S4.

This S4R has a 996-engine, a Desmoquatro, with no such issues.

 [thumbsup]

Que?

I think buy the s4r

but go back and complain to th. dealer about the evo setup.  help him out

Interesting. So my son should have no such issues with his 2002 ST4s then?

I don't know, but he might - since that bike is supposed to have a 916 engine.

According to both the Wiki and Ducati the ST4s has a 996 in 2002. http://www.ducati.com/bikes/sporttouring/st4s/2002/tech_spec.do (http://www.ducati.com/bikes/sporttouring/st4s/2002/tech_spec.do)

The 996 DQ can have flaking rocker arms as well.

Didn't know there were different engines in the S and the non-S. (non-S is 916)

More importantly: does the ST4S with 996 engine have rocker arm issues?
I thought they had fixed this in the 996 engines...




Thanks!

As often as the 916?

The S*R* series Monsters definitely have an 80s-90s feel about the handling, if my S4Rs is anything to go by. The steering is very accurate and you can adjust your line precisely with the throttle, which is just what you want and not very available back then from other makers. However, dramatic direction change at high speed is quite slow and requires a hefty tug on the 'bars. That is what dates the handling, and that is what the newer style chassis is said to resolve.

I enjoy the slower steering on mine. She makes beautiful arcs through long turns. But not what I would call flickable. So what, I am over street racing.

The 03-05 S4R, like the 06-08 4Rs (not sure about the later 4R), has an extendable link in the rear suspension which allows you to adjust rear ride height and hence steering sensitivity. It is a nice feature, and if your target bike has been modded it is possible it has had the ride height raised, which helps produce that "natural" response and in-turn neutrality.

On the power side, you will have a smaller engine than the EVO but which revs harder and makes good torque for longer, and hence has about 15 per cent more power at the top end of the rev range. The trade-off is about 15 per cent less power in the middle, where you will be most of the time. Not really a problem because you still have plenty everywhere, except right down low.

The 03-05 S4R had the 996 Desmoquattro motor, less oversquare and with different heads from the Testastretta engines in the 06 + bikes. Power curves I have seen show the Desmoquattro producing more grunt in the middle than the (4V) Testastrettas, which traded a bit of mid-range for yet more up top. However, the shorter-stroke Testastrettas apparently feel smoother, revvier and more refined, while remaining quite raw by present standards. I love mine. But I'l bet yours (!) will feel just as speccy.  [beer]

I'd say you've found the one you want already and you should go ahead and pick it up.  [thumbsup]

I'm surprised that you thought the 1100 felt that way though, maybe you should try another demo of a new monster, but I feel that the way someone feels on a bike is a very personal thing, some fit, some dont... and from what you're saying the s4 seems just about right.

Have fun, post some pics when you get her ;)

Duchess,

As someone who owns neither a new NOR an old style Monster:

1) What sort of warranty would you be able to get on the Triumph? On the S4R? Is ABS available on the Triumph? And if so, how big of a factor is that in your decision?

2) Yes, the 996 engine had issues with flaking rockers. Just ask ducpainter. This should factor into your decision, but I doubt it should be a deal breaker on its own. If you decide to go with the S4R it's something you'll want to keep an eye out for, but it's not a death sentence for the engine/bike. By all accounts, the megacylce rocker replacements do not suffer from the same issue.

3) Be wary of that smooth engine. "I'm sorry, officer. This bike just makes it too easy to go fast!" is not a valid defense in most jurisdictions.  ;)

James

Duchess surprised no one mentioned, the feeling you have about the bikes can be explained by tires and wheels. The tires/wheels on the S4R could be a better combo than the Evo, not saying that is it but could be. Personally the Evo handles very well as compared to my other 2 monsters. My S2R does not feel planted most of the time, that is directly the result of the Dymags I put on it, CF rims with Mag spokes. On the track the S2R is sweeet and most of the time on the street but the front end isn't as planted out in the hills like my M900. Tire pressure could also be an issue, if it's too low the bike will steer slow. Lastly the S4R motor isn't as smooth IMHO as the Evo 1100, or my M900, S2R. All FWIW - Gene

Hello Gene,

Interesting info! The Rossos on the new bikes are sweet. My son was so impressed with mine that he put the last set he could find on his ST4s.  ;) I hope the Rosso II's are as good when the time comes. Same PSI recommended for the street by both Pirelli and Ducati works fine. For the track I expect the +/- 3 PSI hot/cold rule still works.

From the description duchess gives, sounds like this lame dealer uncrated the EVO and tossed her the keys! Hmmm... Not like our Donnie for sure!  ;) The damn thing must have been nearly rigid in the rear for her 150 lbs too.

Surprising that the S4R engine is less smooth than the EVO. The only 4V I've ridden was my 851 and that was smooooth, but it was also chipped and set up by Ferracci.

Be Well!