Hey guys,
My bike is in my townhouse (very popular with the wife right now) and I've got everything broken down in the middle of my valve adjustment. All of my valves seem out:
V,intake:opener 0.0025", closer 0.004"
V,exhaust: opener 0.004", closer 0.0025"
H,intake: opener 0.0025", closer 0.003"
H,exhaust: opener 0.0025", closer 0.0025"
On my '07 S2R1000, I can't seem to find a happy spot rotating the cam that will allow me to move both opener rocker arms aside, for either cylinder. Therefore, I can't figure out a way to rotate the cam 360* to check the new closers for binding.
Is there a helpful hint someone can throw me so that I can adjust my closers?
Thanks.
you cant slide both arms over. only one at a time.
some people remove the rocker arms completely.
if there is binding, youll notice it immediately binding for the side you are working on, AFAIK, you can only check both sides individually if you leave the rockers in.
If I don't have to remove the rocker arms, that would be preferable.
How can I check for binding if I can't spin the cam 360*? Will I feel the binding in the roughly 45* that I can spin the cam near its TDC?
I was thinking to take a closer off on one side, lower the piston to allow enough room so the opener rocker can go thru its motion without contacting the valve stem, then check the other closer for binding...maybe?
I'm a bit confused, but there has GOT to be a way to do this properly on the DS.
For me, the DS is much more difficult to work on than the 620's, 695 and 696 I have wrenched on.
yea its a bit different, and a little more annoying to do. which reminds me i have to do mine. I skipped the 26,000 mile service. I'm at 31000 right now :P
Okay, per the LT Snyder bible of desmoduo things, these are the recommended clearances.
INTAKE
Opener (.0019-.0047") LT SETTINGS .004"
Closer (.001-.0078") <.002"
EXHAUST
Opener (.0019-.0059") .004"
Closer (.001-.0078") <.002"
I only listed standard, not metric because you posted in standard...
So your intake closers are a little sloppy by these standards, and your exhaust closers are only just on the sloppy side of spec.
If this is true, your motor should spin without binding, and you could give it a turn and recheck your measurements. You shouldn't have to worry about binding if this is the case.
I'm sorry, I may have been unclear. These are my old shim measurements after 8600 miles before removing any shims, my shims are removed now and I want to fit my new closers. No binding issues. I just want to make sure each closer is good individually so I wanted to spin the cams 360*. It seems on the DS, it's a bit different than on the smaller 2V's because both opener rockers don't allow both to move over therefore the 360* spin can't happen. OK. Sleep now. Conquer tomorrow.
I like your style! Conquer tomorrow for sure! I'll have to do that same!
the ds will bind at the ends of the closing lobe base circle, they always have a touch of clearance in the middle of the base circle.
i always remove the opening rockers myself.
I have not removed the rockers. I hope I don't have to this time.
I have the vertical closers off and the horizontal intake, but trying to get that horizontal exhaust closer is a real pregnant dog!
Dang bike almost fell off the stand this morning due to the pressure I had to apply to depress the closer rocker. Wife had to come run out of the bathroom save me as I'm sitting there on the floor with the duc in my lap and my dog staring at me like I'm an idiot. :-\
Is there a way I can jam the closer rocker arm depressed so I can work? I read on this forum about a wooden block wedge...I just can't figure out how it fits in there to hold it. Got plenty of wood. ~4" x 1/3" so I will cut one up today and give it a shot.
Thanks for the help so far, ya'll.
Is it feasible for me to just pull the heads next time and work on the valves on my table?
This is some trippy adventure...
you can slide a thick piece of metal like a 8mm allen key in between the cams to jam it so the spring can push it up. you would be pressing the closing rocker arm down, then sliding the key below it through to the other side. theres only 1 way to do it and you cant mess up your bike, so if you start sliding a key into the cams and it wont go try a different route, the open one will lock the cam in place. just do go suddenly drop the closing rocker arm or youll be slapping the cam lobe against the allen key.
Another thing to note is that you should be using either a closing rocker arm depressor or a brass punch with a large 1/2inch face to push the closing rocker arm down. a screw diver is dangerous since you can slip and punch the head by accident.
I guess i probably should of made that tutorial back last year when i was in there. well im doing a valve adjustment in about 2 weeks if you can wait. :-\ probably not though.
Thanks for the description, I will try that tonight.
I bought a Kawasaki shim for $3 and it does fit inside the closer. Can someone confirm that the Kawasaki shims do fit correctly in the Ducati 7mm closer shims to do measurements?
Checking with the Kawasaki shim as a measuring tool does not seem to work. Maybe this used to work on the 8mm Ducati closers but it seems like it does not fully seat in the 7mm closers.
Quote from: WetDuc on March 23, 2012, 02:15:50 PM
Checking with the Kawasaki shim as a measuring tool does not seem to work. Maybe this used to work on the 8mm Ducati closers but it seems like it does not fully seat in the 7mm closers.
that. 7mm vs 8mm.
buy the EMS shim.
I will order the measuring tool, just sucks I didn't do it earlier before I started.
I'll update regarding the 8mm allen rocker blocker attempt.
Thanks
I ordered the tool and now I will sit here like a tool until it arrives.
To anyone reading this who is going to do your own valves, buy the closer measurement tool before you start...
I saw the closer arm depressor tool and I think I see exactly what you mean, He Man, when I look at my bike. I think I see the spot to put the wedge in.
I also got the LT Snyder manual. I wana see what all the whoopla is about.
Alright I found the sweet spot He Man was referring to. That does work nicely to hold the closer rocker out of the way.
There is a picture of where the sweet spot is on the EMS website:
(http://www.emsduc.com/images/products/zoomed/7mm_rocker_holder.jpg)
Hey WetDuc,
I'm at the same place. I had done valves on my 620 3 times and had it down. Now I'm learning the differences of the DS. The one thing you should check right now is that you don't have any broken half rings / keepers. My V intake closer was loose and my H exhaust opener was tight. I used the number on the side of the closer to order the closer I needed and the 7mm tool at the same time only to find out that the half ring on the loose closer were broken and now I'm waiting again.
I was able to get the closer off pretty easy just pushing down with a big flat head but now I'm thinking from this post it might be hard to get the closer back on. hmmmm
My half rings are not broken. I ride almost everyday, but mostly very reserved city riding style.
Jamming the closer rocker arm to work on the closer shim assembly is really nice IMO. Once I jammed it right the very first time, I could get it again perfectly. Anything to make the adjustment easier so I can enjoy frosties is cool.
My closer measurement tool and LT manual came from EMS today, in only 2 days.
I really love that little tool.
Did all my measurements on my shims, most very close to, but all less than printed size. One unprinted shim (strange).
I'm shim shopping with mic in hand tomorrow at the dealership.
Maybe I can have her back together and do my tune next week (gota travel this weekend).
So what's so special about that tool? Made of a hard plastic?? Getting ready to do my DS1000 vavles, but I can make something like that in a snap at work...
Quote from: chris1044 on March 26, 2012, 06:13:09 PM
So what's so special about that tool? Made of a hard plastic?? Getting ready to do my DS1000 vavles, but I can make something like that in a snap at work...
It's the closer shim measurement tool he's talking about.
wetduc what size do u need? I have a kit with a lotof repeats that im looking to exchange
OK, sorry for the delay there. My Excel file with all my shim data decided to crap out on me.
Just to make sure, I am calculating my new shims required by taking the difference between the optimal clearances (.005" exhaust opener, .004" intake opener, 0" closers, [inches]) and my measured clearances then subtracting or adding the difference to the actual measurement of the opener or closer shim I have, respectively. Sound right?
Switching to metric now [millimeters].
It seems I can shave about 0.1-0.01mm off of my existing openers to bring them into spec, so I don't think I need to buy openers.
My resulting numbers seem feasible for required new closer shims:
Hor exhaust closer 3.0302 (3.05)
Hor intake closer 3.18006 (3.20)
Vert exhuast closer 2.97178 (3.00)
Vert intake closer 3.10894 (3.15)
He Man, if you got 'em I have to leave town tomorrow so I have a bit of time to wait on shipping. I haven't bought my shims from the dealership yet. Just let me know. Otherwise it only looks like I need 4 shims, so that shouldn't be more than about $50 at the dealer...I would hope...
ill measure em out and see what i can exchange with you. i wouldnt charge you any, unless you want to buy a speific one off me. I just want to get rid of my repeats.
I hear ya. Just shoot me a PM and let me know.
Quote from: Speeddog on March 26, 2012, 06:40:11 PM
It's the closer shim measurement tool he's talking about.
Yeah, I know that...but to me it looks like a strip of 1/4" steel stock with a few notches/fillets in it...So I'm asking because I can make something like that in 10 mins vs. buying and waiting for it to come.
Quote from: chris1044 on March 28, 2012, 05:39:24 PM
Yeah, I know that...but to me it looks like a strip of 1/4" steel stock with a few notches/fillets in it...So I'm asking because I can make something like that in 10 mins vs. buying and waiting for it to come.
No no. The closer measurement tool is a small piece by EMS that slides into the closer shims so that you can take accurate measurements
It is worth the $12 or whatever from Desmo Times
There are two tools that make duc life so much easier:
The Closer Measurement Tool (Measure your shims! This is a exacting, precise and accurate lathed round stock SS piece with special notches that fit the half ring counterbore in the shim)
The Closer Depressor Tool (No more flying half rings and curse words...lock your closer rocker arm depressed! This could be a dang toothbrush as long as it jams the back of the cam)
I love beer.
Measuring tool looks like this
(http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/yy130/rappevan/b53bb268.jpg)
Quote from: chris1044 on March 28, 2012, 05:39:24 PM
Yeah, I know that...but to me it looks like a strip of 1/4" steel stock with a few notches/fillets in it...So I'm asking because I can make something like that in 10 mins vs. buying and waiting for it to come.
you could make a ruler with a piece of wood and pencil, but doenst mean its accurate enough to measure stuff like a shim to the .01mm :P
I guess I should have clarified: I'm not planning on making the closer measuring tool - I deal with precise machinery on a daily basis and have a full grasp on why measurement items need to be precise.
What I was talking about was the closer depressor tool. Having full access to a machine shop, it looks like something that could be fabed up in half an hour...But, pictures can be deceiving which is why I asked....if it has some fancy flat surface or special groove to hug something, then it's not worth the head ache to make it.
It doenst really have anything special. Its just ergonomic. They put ringed grooves on the face to make it grip the closing rocker arm better.
i personally just use a brass punch. if you do slip for some reason (my flat punch hasnt slipped on me) the brass shouldnt hurt anything. and if it does, it shouldnt be that significant.
Upon closer inspection, it seems the EMS tool is a lever that contacts the closer rocker at the front fork of the rocker. What I did was jam the back of the rocker.
I don't think you can let go of the EMS tool and have the closer stayed depressed...
But when you jam the back of the rocker you can fully let go of everything and do work. I think hard plastic would be a nice jamming material. Maybe 6 inch long and about 1/3" square.
the EMS closing rocker arm tool is just a over glorified punch.
it does nothing worth its value unless you are working on bikes all day, OR your working on a 4v where the ergonomics of the tool are quite usefull
i personally use a 8mm allen key. then i pull it out so the rocker arm slaps the closing shim so it seats the collets.
Did my valves today and snaped some pics and wrote a short supplemental note to help DS1000 users.
http://kuixihe.com/node/43 (http://kuixihe.com/node/43)
Thanks for the write up.
My DS has no timing sight glass.
Are you sure there isn't a site glass on the left case cover above and behind the alternator?
I am 100% sure there is no timing sight glass on my DS, 695 or 696.
All the bikes just have smooth cases on bothsides except for the oil sight glass on the lower right case.
Is it really needed? I am sure I am working at compression TDC by way of pinky in spark plug hole method.
In any case, I put an order into EMS for new shims and will be assembling everything this week then moving on to a TB sync and CO tweak.
I very much appreciate ya'lls continuing help.
I cant verify that. IF you have the DS1100 motor you defintely dont have it. not sure about the others.
you just need to make sure the dots on the timing belt line up. and the piston is at tdc for the front cylinder
then you know that the front is at TDC-Compression. pinky in spark plug method is ehhh sketchy at best. i would stick a screw driver in there and feel when the piston stops coming up.
my main gripe with not having that sight is that TDC-C sort of lingers. since the piston is moving its slowest point. So you can be at TDC-C and the flywheel can move a few degrees and you wont really notice the piston moving at all.
Someone else can better chime in on finding TDC for motors without the sightglass.
My 07 doesn't have a window but it does have a plug that comes out easy to look for the tDC mark. I also hold my finger over the hole to feel for compression.
that plug makes it easier to manufacture i guess. Can you snap a picture of it for me so i can throw it in my tech notes?
Sure I will try and snap a photo tonight.
Yea, mine has a plug as well. So that plug can simply be removed and then the timing marks are visible?
I'd like to see a picture of this plug as well!!!
Here is a photo I found online.
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/DUCATI-07-MONSTER-S2R-1000-MOTOR-ENGINE-TRANSMISSION-/07/!B6ylK1g!Wk~$(KGrHqQOKp!Ey+jCytzdBMybf)zc3!~~_12.JPG)
You unscrew that plug were the window should be to look inside.
Ho dang! Just popped the right engine case plug on my DS and low and behold there is the timing mark. Nice to know.
I got my closers on. Bought a large one from the dealer and was able to sand the others to fit (each closer was moved to the next smallest required shim, smallest one was no longer used). It was very rewarding to feel the cams bind and then feel the binding dissapear after sanding the shim enough. Very cool.
My closers may not all be at zero but they are damn close and all are below .002".
My openers all just got sanded and were good after that at .004".
I got tired and stopped for today, but tomorrow I will tension belts and do the TB sync and A/F tune and hopefully be set up!
I want to sincerely thank ya'll for the help on this and the past posts I've made.
I will put together a few notes on my experience and add them here as well tomorrow.
can you keep some notes on the TB sync? i havent done that yet and its the only thing to be done. i got the valve adjustment done already. (thank you shim kit! only took 3 hours lol)
Yes I will do a writeup on the experience and will focus on the TB sync.
I did learn this process before learning valves, so I feel a bit more comfortable with the sync.
I got the duc put back together last night and she's lookin' like she wants to roll soon.
Next up after all this engine maintenance will be suspension :|
I don't remember if something gets bolted to that plastic tab with two holes that is molded into the battery tray.
Could someone verify that has nothing attached to it? Pic of my bike below:
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f215/instaphd/8e269697.jpg)
You are correct, nothing gets attached there on my S2R.
TB sync is something that I would like to see some photos of as well. I had been told if the bike runs well it's something that doesn't need to be adjusted every service. But with the kind of valve adjustment that is needed on some of these bikes at first check. Maybe they don't come off the line tuned like a fine watch :)
I would like to check mine because there might be some improvement to be made by adjusting.
Thanks for checking, I didn't think there was anything attached there, just wanted to make sure.
I have found that tuning my duc does have big benefits. Once its right, it doesnt messing with.
Mmmmmm...ran the bike around the block and she was very buttery.
My pre-valve adjust tune got me pretty close, she just needs a touch is what it feels like.
Very happy duc. Thx guys.