*** NOTE: Thread title changed to be more "search-friendly" in the future ***
SO.
You know that thing we all say we'll never do?
You know, mix up the battery terminals when putting a battery back in?
Yea.
After all the lovely work I've done pulling my side covers off and painting, Upon reassembly, and placement of my new battery... I managed to reverse the terminals.
Short and simple, bike won't start now (obviously i got the battery in properly now)
SYMPTOMS:
I'm 90% certain that the only thing that was fried in the process were the resistors for my turn signals.
I removed them from the system. I have the hyper flash now, but the signals do work.
Blinkers Work.
Headlight Works.
Highbeam Works.
Tail light Works.
Brake light works, both the front and rear controls engage the brake light.
When i turn the bike on, the fuel pump does engage. I get the "whirrrr".
Gauges turn on and sweep. They display the mileage that was on my bike when i last rode it, as well as the proper amount of mileage on the TRIP-O-Meter...
Neutral light works, oil light works, engine light works.
When turned off, the immobilizer light BLINKS as it normally did.
With all this, i'm relatively certain that I dodged a bullet, and that the ECU isn't fried... I hope.
Could it be the ECU?
With the bike on, in neutral, the kickstand up, and the the kill switch in the proper position, the start button does NOTHING.
No click, no crank, no nothin'
At this point I'll mention that I DID reroute my starter cable around to the other side of the motor.
I'm 99% certain that i wired it up properly, but i guess consider my epic fail with the batter, anything is possible.
Any ideas here guys? Any order of items to check / rule out?
Either I'm stupid and forgetting how to start a bike, or something else is TOASTED. [bacon]
I have a multi-meter.. but it's all fancy n shit and i can't figure out how to work it.
:-\ :'( :-[
Everything else working sounds promising.
Have you checked your fuses?
I have indeed pulled every fuse and they are all good.
HOWEVER, after some further searching on the forum, and some quick gap-bridging on the STARTER SOLENOID with an old shitty wrench... The tiny 803cc beast was awakened.
Starter solenoid is toast.
I appreciate your reply Buckethead!
God bless this forum and it's mountain of knowledge.
Thanks folks.
(http://www.comicbookbin.com/artman2/uploads/5/dodgebullets.jpg)
Just an FYI, if the gages sweep when key turned, that usually means the ECU is functional.
Glad you dodged it.
No prob. Just trying to rule out simple shit first.
Glad you didn't manage to make the beast with two backs it up too bad. [beer]
Check the little cable that runs to the solenoid from the starter button. It's fairly easy to knock out.
Quote from: Howley on April 20, 2012, 04:16:59 AM
Check the little cable that runs to the solenoid from the starter button. It's fairly easy to knock out.
I'll definitely give this a check before i go buying a solenoid.
Quote from: Howley on April 20, 2012, 04:16:59 AM
Check the little cable that runs to the solenoid from the starter button. It's fairly easy to knock out.
There isn't a direct connection between starter button and starter solenoid. It goes via the ECU. The starter button is on an ECU input and the solenoid is on an ECU output.
When you press the button, it signals the ECU that you want to start. It switches off the headlights, then turns on the solenoid.
Do you get a click when you press the starter? That noise is the starter solenoid engaging (or trying to).
If there's no click, check the solenoid coil resistance. If it's open, it's just the solenoid. If it's good, you may have blown the circuit in the ECU that drives the solenoid, or else the back EMF diode between the solenoid and ECU.
If you look at the wiring diagram, you'll see the diode. It's function is to protect the ECU from big negative voltages when the solenoid switches off and the field on the windings collapse. If the battery is in backwards, this diode is a short between the battery -12V and the ECU solenoid driver. It'll conduct a fair current.
Good luck!
Ok then check the plug that switches the solenoid. Doesn't matter where it comes from, if its not plugged in, its not gonna start.
Quote from: suzyj on April 20, 2012, 05:03:17 PM
There isn't a direct connection between starter button and starter solenoid. It goes via the ECU. The starter button is on an ECU input and the solenoid is on an ECU output.
When you press the button, it signals the ECU that you want to start. It switches off the headlights, then turns on the solenoid.
Do you get a click when you press the starter? That noise is the starter solenoid engaging (or trying to).
If there's no click, check the solenoid coil resistance. If it's open, it's just the solenoid. If it's good, you may have blown the circuit in the ECU that drives the solenoid, or else the back EMF diode between the solenoid and ECU.
If you look at the wiring diagram, you'll see the diode. It's function is to protect the ECU from big negative voltages when the solenoid switches off and the field on the windings collapse. If the battery is in backwards, this diode is a short between the battery -12V and the ECU solenoid driver. It'll conduct a fair current.
Good luck!
How loud should this click be? I thought on occasion when pushing the start button about 50 times that I heard a VERY faint click, but nothing like when trying to start with a nearly dead battery for instance.
Is this diode something that can be replaced if it turns out to be the culprit?
If it turns out that the starter circuit on the ecu is toast, is there a solution short of a new ecu? Could I bypass this circuit in the ecu by replacing the starter solenoid with a simple push-button relay and use that as a start button (if necessary)?
Also, is there any way to absolutely confirm the solenoid is bummed?
Is there any way to confirm the hand switch isn't muffed?
What about this mysterious diode? Confirmable?
I would like to eliminate all possibilities before trying to bypass the ecu,.. and would LOVE to confirm the issue before dropping any cash...
It's a pretty obvious click.
You can use a multimeter to diagnose. For the starter button, disconnect the ECU body connector and put one multimeter probe into pin 28 on the plug (use a piece of thin solid wire a similar diameter to the pin in the ECU socket, like a component lead or something to get in there. Set the multimeter to ohms and put the other probe on battery -ve.
The resistance should drop to less than 1 ohm or so when you press the starter button.
For the solenoid, disconnect the plug where it connects into the loom and poke your multimeter leads into the socket leading to the solenoid. You'll need a pair of bits of thin wire to get in there. Measure the resistance. Mine is 4.5 ohms. Significantly higher or lower than this and it's your solenoid.
The diode is a bit more tricky, as it's buried in the loom about 25cm back from the solenoid connector. Here's a picture of that part of the loom in all it's naked glory:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-CBJ1ma-5vac/T5MjUdp7DMI/AAAAAAAABMw/pjRCXguc4xY/s1223/DSC_3005.JPG)
To diagnose, disconnect your ECU body connector again, and set your multimeter to diode check. Probe the solenoid connector going back into the loom, and you should see 0.6V or so with the red multimeter lead on the red/black wire side of the connector, and overrange the other way round.
Also check for continuity between the ECU body connector pin 1 and the red/black side of the solenoid connector, and between the other side of the connector and battery +ve.
If you need to bypass the ECU, pull the back off the ECU body connector, cut the wire to pin 1 (red/black) which goes to the solenoid and the wire to pin 28 (red/orange) which goes to the starter switch, and join them together in the back of the connector shell. This will be the equivalent of putting a spanner across the solenoid to start, but a lot more convenient. The only downside is that you're missing out on the ECU program which turns off the headlight first to give the starter more current.
When you say "ecu body connector," do you mean the plugs going into the top of the ecu? And is there an easy way to identify what number pin I'm looking at?
Quote from: corey on April 21, 2012, 02:55:06 PM
When you say "ecu body connector," do you mean the plugs going into the top of the ecu? And is there an easy way to identify what number pin I'm looking at?
Yes. The ECU has two connectors on top - one for the body, one for the engine. The body is the one towards the back of the bike, with blue innards.
Here's a picture to aid identification of pins:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-pi-0QZSGpRg/T5NKigxEbrI/AAAAAAAABNM/G0_sUmQti9M/s1223/DSC_3017_modified.JPG)
If you pop the top off (link here:http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=56463.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=56463.0)) you can verify by wire colour, too.
Oh, and if you haven't already, download a pdf copy of your bike's owner's manual from the ducati website. The last page has a wiring diagram, which you can blow up really big to see what you're doing.
Testing the solenoid itself is easy. Remove solenoid. Take your ohmmeter and connect it to the two large terminals. From a battery, positive to one of the small terminals. Ground to the other. Polarity doesn't matter. The ohmmeter should read almost zero.
Whelp.
I did some muckin' around with the probe-o-meter. [coffee]
• Checked STARTER BUTTON (hand controls) at ECU Pin #28. Upon pushing the button, resistance drops to ~ 0.04 ohms :-\
• Checked STARTER SOLENOID at plug/socket leading into the solenoid itself. Resistance clocks in at 4.3 ohms... :-[
• Checked the DIODE at the solenoid connector going into the loom with my positive lead on the Red/Black side of the plug and my negative lead on the other side... it came it at 710 milli-volts, which unfortunately clocks in damn close to 0.6v... probably fine. Out of curiosity, i cut the sheathing off the loom all the way back to the diode just visually inspect it, and the wiring around it. All looks fine to me... Obviously I'm no pro. :-X
• Checked for continuity between Pin #1 in the ECU and and the Red/Black side of the Solenoid Connector. It's fine. [thumbsdown]
• Checked for continuity between the other side of the connector and the Battery VE+... No continuity here... Is this significant? Or should i NOT have continuity. ???
After all this, I was obviously discouraged. Three strikes. No solution.
I thought back to when my battery used to die... You know, when I would leave my lights on while we ate breakfast at Bob Evans...
When I would push my start button, I could clearly see the headlight dim and/or shut off momentarily. I'm working with a brand new battery here, which I even put on a tender after a couple wrench-gap-bridging starts last time around just to be safe. I notice now that with FULL power going to the headlight â€" i mean as bright as it's ever been â€" when i push that start button, no flicker at all. just solid light. Throw another stone at the starting circuit in the ECU. :'(
I figure at this point, what the hell, let's try bypassing the ECU. Rather than mucking with the plug â€" and because I wanted to make sure I had enough wiring to piece things back together once I replace the ECU down the line, likely with a DP flashed unit â€" I found a section of the loom slightly forward of the ecu with easy access. I sliced into the sheathing, finding a multitude of wires that for some reason weren't so intimidating anymore (desperation setting in). Orange/Red? SNIP. Red/Black? SNIP. Twist together.... Check...
Turn key... Gauges sweep... fuel pump primes... lights are on... start button in... Vrooom. Fired right up. :-\
Shut her down and did it again too. Fired right up.
Third time not so lucky, ran out of juice i think. I had started it up a couple times earlier with a wrench as well during testing, just to make sure i didn't break any connections after the solenoid.
The starts are a little hard because my air-gap on my timing sensor is still off (need to sand the shim down a little more).
At this point, it's obvious that the issue is between where I cut the starter button wire, and where i cut the solenoid wire. Only culprit in that region is the ECU.
Obviously the REAL culprit is me being an idiot.
Based on my description of my experience above, can anyone think of any other possible explanation?
Like I said in the beginning.. I think i really botched this one up proper.
So i guess if we move on from here, is there any other possible damage i could have done that will... i dunno.. drain the battery or shit like that?
Is there any negative effect of running the bike this way permanently? Or should I save up for a new ECU and get my wiring back into factory order?
Only two negatives I can think of, 1. you are bypassing the sidestand and clutch safety switch. Negative? Up to you. 2. If your quality the snip and splice is not so hot there may be a failure down the line.
Actually I don't think he is completely bypassing the clutch and sidestand switches, as these are wired separately into the ECU.
If the stand is down and it's in gear with the clutch out, the starter will fire but it won't start.
The level of this conversation confirms that I have a long way to go.
[bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down]
Good luck.
Quote from: suzyj on April 22, 2012, 08:09:52 PM
Actually I don't think he is completely bypassing the clutch and sidestand switches, as these are wired separately into the ECU.
If the stand is down and it's in gear with the clutch out, the starter will fire but it won't start.
So, the bike will crank but not run? Makes sense. I guess we will know for sure shortly. We are waiting, Corey!
actually, this is one of the things i checked last night, because I too was curious/concerned.
i didn't try starting it with the bike in gear and clutch out... it's on the stands still, so i didn't want it to "buck" itself off.
i did start the bike in neutral. kickstand down in neutral, still runs... this is normal.
then i pulled the clutch in and kicked it down to first with the kickstand still down. shut right off as it normally would.
seems like the only single thing to get bypassed is that headlight dimmer... which i imagine that if i have a good, functioning charging system (pretty sure i'm in the clear here... just had the side covers off and the stator was in beautiful shape), i should be fine without.
regarding my splice:
I stripped back about .5in on each wire, split each wire end into two, and intertwined them... then followed up with what i consider a "function over form" soldering job. it's not the prettiest soldering, but if that make the beast with two backser comes apart, then i'm just not meant to ride this bike this year. did i nice wrap with 3M super 88 electrical tape (only the best will do!), and will be following that up with some heat-shrink tubing shortly. I also clearly marked the other two ends of each wire with a piece of blue heat-shrink in case I need to revert back (when I'm able to save up enough for that new DP ECU).
also, i realized that i DID not have my battery on the tender before last night, so that batter had probably 10 or so cold starts on it with a wrench over the solenoid... that sound like it could kill a battery?
@take risks:
believe me man, i thought the same thing when i started to think "ecu problem"
if it wasn't for some top notch help and guidance from this board, i'd be boned for sure.
never in my life did i imagine i'd be cutting into the wiring harness of my $10,000 bike to bypass the ECU in my own garage.
i can't figure out how the hell people even owned vehicles before the internet.
i think my biggest worry right now is that i fried some other important circuit in the ECU... possibility?
Quote from: corey on April 23, 2012, 05:53:30 AM
i think my biggest worry right now is that i fried some other important circuit in the ECU... possibility?
Naah. The only other things that the ECU drives that have any current capability (and hence the ability to blow to a frazzle) are the relays, coils, and injectors. The bike just won't run if it's not driving them.
I'm just really happy we were able to help you out - you caught me at a good point, where I have my loom in a thousand bits spread right around the house...
Suzyj i can't thank you enough. You basically handed me a turn-by-turn on how to solve this issue. It certainly blows big time that I made this mistake, but I did learn a lot. My confidence with electrical problems has increased greatly. It's really not that complex once you dive in.
Regarding other possible problems:
Essentially, if I had the bike running for about 10 minutes or so, would you say that I'm in the clear? Or should I do some testing on any other relays, the coils, or the injectors?
Follow up three days later...
After giving the new battery a full charge from my Optimator, as well as sanding down the timing shim to "close enough"... All seems well in this world.
I will say that there are a few intricacies that I'm going to have to get used to â€" and be careful about â€" regarding the starting protocol.
While the bike still will not start with the kill switch engaged as normal, it WILL crank. So if I have the kill switch in the OFF position, and don't notice, the bike will crank and crank and crank and crank.
Same thing goes for the kickstand and being in gear.
The bike will shut off if I put the kickstand down while in gear as well. This is good.
However, the bike WILL start while in gear with the kickstand up... It likely wouldn't do so while on the ground, but I have yet to test that. But on the stands, with NO weight on the rear wheel... the bike started and the wheel started turning...
Basically, it's like an old ducati now. Hah.
I'm not to worried, as I'm pretty religious about front brake and clutch when starting, so I should be fine.
The last thing I did notice, that I can't imagine is TOO big of a deal, is that the starter will crank with the bike running if I push the start button... I don't recall ever trying that before, but i'm not really too excited about that prospect. Could it possibly hurt anything? I mean, i don't go around pressing that start button with the bike already on, but just curious if it could screw anything up.
I was planning on going open air box and DP ecu flash next winter, So i guess I'll just have to add a few hundred extra bucks into the pot for a complete ECU with no core exchange...
Calling Suzy...
One last question. Is there a good chance of this ECU shitting the bed on me now that it has a fried circuit?
I know we discussed some of the other parts that were at risk, but were any of the other circuits in the ECU vulnerable to damage when the battery was in improperly?
I have some long rides planned this year, and I'd hate to have a problem on the road...
Quote from: corey on April 29, 2012, 08:15:48 AM
Calling Suzy...
One last question. Is there a good chance of this ECU shitting the bed on me now that it has a fried circuit?
I know we discussed some of the other parts that were at risk, but were any of the other circuits in the ECU vulnerable to damage when the battery was in improperly?
I have some long rides planned this year, and I'd hate to have a problem on the road...
No, the damage that's done is done. Truth be told, everything should have survived a reversed battery, with the exception of fuses. It's one of the tests that automotive electronics are regularly put to during design.
If you have a look at the S4R owner's manual (I've been downloading as many different wiring diagrams as possible), you'll note the ECU connectors are labelled. The pin that drives the starter solenoid is labelled "O2HEAT2". My hypothesis is that Magneti Marelli had no intention of driving a starter solenoid directly with their ECU, so made no provision (bear in mind that the ECU is common to a whole pile of vehicles, and not just bikes).
So when Ducati wanted something to drive a starter solenoid, and were too tight to add a 50c relay, some smartarse said "hey, let's use the second O2 sensor heater driver for that", so they tried it, and it occasionally blew up from the back-emf of the solenoid coil, so then they added the diode (in the loom? - WTF!), so yeah, you end up with a circuit that's not really terribly well designed.
And whereas everything else in the bike is carefully protected against reverse battery, this bit... Not so much.
So in summary, this is almost definitely the only damage to your ECU.
This thread right here is why I love our DMF so effing much [clap]
Absobloodylutely awesome suzyj [clap] [clap] [clap]
(Especially for a Magpies supporter ;)).
[bow_down] [bow_down]
Quote from: corey on April 23, 2012, 05:53:30 AM
i can't figure out how the hell people even owned vehicles before the internet.
Amen.
Hope this works out for you.
Quote from: corey on April 23, 2012, 05:53:30 AM
i can't figure out how the hell people even owned vehicles before the internet.
The guys behind the parts counters knew a lot more than just how to fetch a box from a bin.
Corey, could you post pics?
Really great thread. The experts' generosity of support, and the OP's execution of their plan was excellent! This forum is fortunate, indeed.
[clap] [clap] [clap]
Huh, I guess the S2R1K I had was different. I did this EXACT thing and shat my pants as I thought I fried the ECU. My Uncle had found a BIG (I think it was actually a Maxi in size?) fuse somewhere that was the culprit. It was not in the with the normal array of fuses. Once he changed it out everything came back...
Thread from dead. Three years later, this fix is still working â€" bike is 100% fine.