Ducati Monster Forum

Motorcycle Reconstruction - TAC tv road safety commercial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HT666XwJR2s#)

In that particular collision there is some truth to that conclusion. You can ride too fast for the conditions. And by conditions, the adjoining street with a parked car blocking your view and the view of the other driver.

True, but the rider nails the rear brake and most importantly (where's the rider training?), THE RIDER HAD RIGHT OF WAY. Failing to give way and turning right in front of an oncoming vehicle is one of the most culpable things a driver can do besides running a red light.
The 8km point is more about justifying speed tax cameras than anything. Inattentive driving and failing to give way kills more people than 8kms over the limit. Speed is a factor sure, but the blame is put on the victim.
The language and tone of the add clearly puts the onus of blame on the victim, because someone wants to discourage us off the road altogether. Dont be fooled
If the add said " be careful and take into account inattentive drivers, so ride defensively and give yourself a chance", with a tone of advice and instuction it would be different. But that would mean we are valued and respected road users..
The message to car drivers is a dangerous one, it blames us just for being on the road. Just read between the lines and note who cops the onus of fault.
There is a clear anti motorcycling policy in some govt departments irrespective of the party in power.
Remember the Libs in the last election promising to end antagonistic policies to ward motorcyclists after the Labor govts crap record?
There are some public servants that need to be sacked.
If we dont organize an effective lobby group we will be legislated off the road. We pay more rego down here despite a smaller carbon footprint,  less congestion, less parking space, less wear on the roads. We get special attention from the police pushed by Vic Roads and TAC. The cops would rather be catching bad guys than booking us for a tail tidy, it wastes their time.
So dont be surprised that there are sections of the public service that want us off the road and adds like that are part of the propaganda to further alienate us from other road users.
Oh how I wish we were favoured by certain public servants like bicyclists!

What would be a typical speed limit on a road like that in Australia? 

35 mph maybe 40-45 around town depending on how built up the area was. Thats a rough conversion. The ad has 60 kms so about 35mph for that one. The rider was 5mph over.
We have a real problem down here in this state (and some others too) with anti motorcycling attitudes in the bureaucracy. The overtones of the ad may not stand out to some but locals interpret them in a wider context and history of anti motorcycling policy. One bureaucrat said he wanted to outlaw motorcycles if he could.
We need an effective AMA down here.

Yeah, I agree. 5mph over is insignificant in most areas. Was the rider in the wrong by slightly speeding? Yes. But the other driver entered the intersection before it was clear to do so and caused the collision.

Yep, sure did. The problem is, all "right of way" does here is assign blame for criminal and civil proceedings. That's pretty much all it ever does. It's not a physical barrier or magic force field.

Should the commercial emphasize the responsibility of the driver more? Sure.  Should the rider practice better defensive driving and, as you pointed out, better braking skills? I think so.

I took a report regarding a kid that rode his skateboard off the sidewalk and into a crosswalk, directly into the path of a SUV. He flew about fifty feet. His comment? "I had the right of way!"

The real purpose of the ad is disurbing.  The overtones and emphasis are the issues of concern, but that appears lost on you.
There are more effective ways of improving rider safety than alienating them with ads that are discriminatory.
The overtones of the ad will have more power to influence driver attitudes than facts, and that is the dangerous thing about this ad.

That I agree with you wont really matter if this thread gets locked due to political commentary.

I think so too.  But IMO its not the real bone of contention here.

^^ This.  

This is the problem I have with this ad.

To me it effectively says to drivers of cars - and I know most of us also drive cars, I'm talking about the majority of car drivers who have no concept and little regard for us two wheelers - that pulling out into an intersection when it was not safe to do so is understandable in the circumstances.... After all the nasty speeding motorbike was travelling too fast (5mph over the posted limit) so no wonder you didnt see the high velocity idiot.  

Theres not a word of concern about the car driver's lack of appropriate attention.  Rather it seems to excuse it with the simplistic message that the rider is dead coz he was travelling too fast.  

After all, isnt that why so much attention is devoted to the proliferation of revenue-positive road "safety" speed cameras rather than wasting finances on expensive driver training programmes?

Legitimate Road training for ALL car drivers won't happen in most western countries due to the 'right' vs 'privilege' mentality of driving.
In Germany, it's a privilege, they pay ALOT of money for a lot of driver training. So, losing that privilege due to incompetence becomes an economic issue for drivers.
In the states, it's a 'right' at 16. They take a class in school for half a year with about 3hrs or less in car training and bam, you have a right to do whatever you want on the road. There's no probationary period like in Germany.

German sample laws


•First you must be at least 18 years of age.
•After you have completed the driver education course and school you are on probation for 2 years. During these 2 years a lesser driving violation would require you to re-take the driver education course. A more serious driving violation would call for your driver's license to be revoked. In either case when your driver's license has been granted once again you will be on probation for 4 years.
•The driver training course covers almost 28 hours of classroom education followed by 35 hours of driving school on the road to cover varying conditions of day, night and autobahn experience with an instructor.

That's just for car drivers. For motorcycles, it's even harder with the stepped system.
I WISH the states were like this.

The real purpose of the ad (per the ad) is to get riders to slow down and ride more defensively. What you read into it is up to you.

The real issue is you guys drive on the wrong side of the road. :P If you drove on the right side the car could have made the turn without crossing the riders path.

You're not an Aussie,? That changes everything, well apologies mate.

You see, we down here have a local context of about at least twenty years of successive governments being anti motorcycling. This has led to entrenched bureaucrats taking that crusade on for themselves.
Locals don't see ads like that in isolation, there's a slant to the motorcycle related ads that gets us down here real angry, and it's been a concerted campaign. My state has the harshest road laws in the free world. For example, we are allowed 3% speed error, but speedometers are allowed 5% oem! Go figure. You can be booked for 2 mph over and for speeding up to avoid danger from converging traffic, and you are guilty untill proven innocent with our speed cameras which have been regularly inaccurate.
Wire rope barriers and other hazards still exist despite promises and govts attempt to reintroduce front number plates! We need to get Ducatiz and j v  down here for a class action!
Check out the Oz Monster site and you will see. We are starting with a petition and hopefully it will build from there.

 [laugh] No that is only what they want you to think the real purpose of the ad is ... you have fallen for it just as drivers would but with a slightly different understanding.

In actuality the primary purpose of the road safety groups is to raise revenue. An example ... we have a point system here:
- you speed
- your fined
- you lose points
- lose enough points you lose your licence
All seems reasonable until revenues start to drop. Then, in NSW (the next state to the source of this ad) they simply increased the number of points before your licence is lost ... kept more drivers on the road, increasing revenue opportunities. Nothing to do with safety or getting people to slow down. Certainly no education.

Hey Unge
Should this thread go back to the Ozmonsters site?

no, i think that all riders should work with their local authorities to start the push for better rider AND especially better driver education.

Will someone explain why political commentary is off-limits,particularly if it pertains to motorcycles? Seems ridiculous. [bang]
 

Because from experience, our members are not mature enough to discuss without resorting to flaming and other less than adult practices.

It's the rules.

There are other forums that allow that if that is your cup of tea.

No mate, there's already a thread on the same subject back home in OzMo.  I intentionally posted here for the rest of the world to see.  And to gather their "untainted" opinions  ;).

Sad but true.

Still exist? Mate they're still installing new wire rope barriers by the effing km..... makes me wanna buy a battery operated angle grinder  [laugh].  Dont get me started on that subject.

Hilarious  [roll].  Just hold a mirror up to the screen and see if you're correct.

while it is true that car/motorcycle collisions are usually the fault of the car's driver, does right of way really matter when you're picking yourself up off the ground, or worse?

Motorcycle speed is difficult for drivers to judge (generally), especially head on.  Slowing down will give you (general you) time to react and time for them to see (actually see, not look through you).

sure 8kmh isn't really that much of a difference, but the point I got was "slow down in town."  It shocks me how fast some riders go on the street.  Highway or open road is one thing, but around town?  leave 10 minutes earlier and enjoy the ride.

Cool Unge, fair enough.
If things get bad enough, I'll seek refugee status in Spain. Sure their economy is stuffed, but they love motorbikes, even the king rides motorbikes.
Ambulance officers have strong opinions about the threat of wire rope barriers to motorcyclists, thats for sure.  Other countries remove or modify them.

In the states for the reflector markers they use corrugated metal posts like you use for a small chainlink fence  [bang]
In Europe, they are plastic breakaways.

I left a country because EVERYONE thought 'Speed Kills'. Speed DOESN'T Kill, stupidity DOES! America is becoming the same way these days.. I see people driving 10 mph below the speed limit on a nice dry sunny day and 20 mph over when there is snow on the ground! And then I see these electronic signs on the highways that say 'Slow down and save a life'... I think its just hilarious!

Does OZ have on group like the AMA?

And what's worse about that commercial is that the rider was even wearing a level of gear that most people wont on the street.  So he was basically doing almost everything he could right.

I don't like the ad at all. and not just because the physics seem really messed up. ;)


What right-of-way did for me is allow me to heal without worrying about how much all the surgery, doctor visits, and PT were going to cost me.
so yes, it does really matter when you are picking yourself up off the ground. it just doesn't keep the accident from happening.

FWIW - Dating myself....used to be an advert theme (late 60s/early 70s?) to promote defensive driving and use of seat belts (in those cars that had them) that showed a mashed car with the carcasses of the occupants.  Punch line was something like..."they had the right of way, now they're Dead Right".

Thats true for sure. If only the ad was in that spirit we would know it was for our safety and not to marginalize us. Examine the subjective content.
There have been a series of ads that have been building a case against us which portray motorcyclists as reckless, irresponsible road users. Its a really dangerous attitude being encouraged among car drivers.
I can only think of two ads in recent years that I could honestly say genuinely promoted respect from car drivers.
Unfortunately a small minority of motorcyclists are being portrayed as the norm. It's infuriating.

Stupid ad video. For one the rider is riding on the wrong side of the road..lol

Secondly if he was going say 78 km he would have passed by before the car even made the turn.

In my state, Victoria, the lobby group imploded due to political infighting among other things. We need a new one.

Fixed it for ya  :)

My first post on this forum and I am sorry but that advertisement is bull crap. right where The Officer says "Let's change one small thing" where they roll back the speedometer, You could just edit that out and do a whole new series of commercials such as "If the driver had finished her texting, the rider would have passed without making contact". Clearly the commercial had an agenda and unfortunately it did paint a poor light on riders. Does anyone know how to edit video and dub audio? I think we could have fun creating hypothetical situations with that video  [evil]

Someone needs to take that video, swap the car and bike and see what the reaction is when a bike pulls out in front of a speeding car around a blind corner. Would the emphasis be on the car slowing down? Or would it be that the bike did not properly inspect the situation before entering the intersection?

to me this is where in the U.S. anyway, the AMA needs to get out and advertise. Put out all those situations where drivers are injuring and killing riders. And ALWAYS have the rider going the speed limit and always have the rider paying attention and always have the rider doing the right thing. Because for some reason, this is ALWAYS the opposite of how they depict car vs riders, the cars are always doing the right thing.

When I retired to Virginia three years ago, I noted every spring that VDOT did TV advertising for motorcycle awareness. Couldn't locate the current ads but did find this old one from New York DMV. Motorcycle Awareness Commercial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFXlOKcu2wM#)

My original intent for this post was to link to some of the Look Twice ads. However after a quick YouTube search I found a huge motorcycle problem I had previously been unaware of.

CHiPs - Ponch's Motorcycle Safety PSA (2008) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRnb54I7R-0&feature=youtube_gdata_player#)

Thread jack over... Sorry Ung  ;)

This one's pretty dry... but it makes the point nonetheless

TAC ad alternate voiceover (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3_0Xs3mVUME#)

Good one.  [thumbsup]

That one works [thumbsup]

Much better!

I tell you right now.. Im usually very quiet, but I couldnt feel any stronger about this topic.. and any more contrary to most of the views here.

1. Rider was speeding.
2. As a rider, YOUR LIFE is in YOUR HANDS!  Right of way wont mean SHIT when your in a make the beast with two backsING BOX.
3. MAKE decisions based on your DESIRE to stay on this PLANET or ELSE. NO ONE ELSE gives a SHIT ABOUT you on the ROAD, dont assume ANYTHING.
4. I make the beast with two backsING LOVE THIS COMERCIAL. I DISAGREE about the POLITICAL ANGLE, I dont BUY it.  THIS commercial in my humble opinion is like the horrifically graphic CIGARETTE ADDS. Showing people with tracheotomies (spelling).  Its meant  to burn an IMAGE into your mind you can close your eyes too.. and remind you.. "your choice, your death"


Im done.. flame away.

1.  I'm not sure if I can really consider going 5 mph over the speed limit in a 35 mph zone really speeding...  if he was going 60 in a 35, yes, then he's will def be at fault... but 5 mph?  You can easily pick up 5 mph by coming down a hill unless you ride your brakes to maintain the exact speed limit.  In fact, I would say most judges would toss a 5 mph speeding ticket out as a waste of their time.

2.  Yup, which just goes to show that the car was still in the wrong for not yielding to right of way.  So the fault was still for the majority with the car even if you still say 5 mph over the limit is too much.

3.  I would say that wearing a full 2 piece suit zipped together, race boots/gloves, and helmet along with going only 5 mph over the speed limit is pretty much already doing everything you can to assume something will hit you.

4.  If you view the other commercial that Curmudgeon posted, I think you can see how the fault for the accident was placed differently for almost the same incident with the message that not paying attention on the road might have you kill someone.  And if you want graphic, look at this TSA that they did that, when posted on this board, most people agreed with and supported... because the incident that occurs is the fault of the rider and warns riders to do more to protect themselves:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRpNirJfuzs&feature=relmfu

Basically, the main issue here seems to be that when the story is told from the perspective given in the original video, it paints the the victim of the accident as the person in the wrong.  Which then goes on to basically tell all car drivers that, even if they were the ones that caused the accident, it was probably the rider's fault anyway.  It as ludicrous as them doing the same commercial with a car driving 5 mph over the speed limit, having someone pulling out in front of them, and then dying to the accident... to then say that the 5 mph over killed them, not the car pulling out.

sorry.. Ive buried alot of friends. Whenever this topic comes up, im pretty passionate about it. So ill try to explain my view another way.

1.   I dont think  those ADDs change anything. People will continue being assholes in cars and motorcycles.
2.  Unfortunately, in every case that Im familiar with the rider was speeding. We ALL KNOW someone who has riden in excess of 100 miles per hour on the higway a few times.  :-X
3.  Since MY life means alot to ME, im not going to quibble about "right of way".  Its not even a consideration in my mind when i cross an intersection.  I KNOW That is the MOST common multi-vehicle accident for motorcyclists.
4. I treat every intersection as a DO or DIE scenario! Where are the cars? Am i going across alone?  can I use another car as a physical barrier?  Can I use another car who is crossing in the same direction for added VISUAL PRESENCE?

In the end. The rider who is in a BOX, doesnt have a chance to debate the law, riding technique and/or ethical behaviour. Hes simply dead. 

Its your life.. protect it. Slow down, give yourself options, scan ahead. Physics supercedes the law, good luck out there.

All I would say is that you haven't had to live it then.


I will throw this back another way ... I HATE those ads. As someone who has never smoked a cigarrette - it serves no purpose other than to make me feel ill increase my anger level towards smokers ... because it is their fault I am subjected to the bloody ads all the time.

Same could apply here from the driver's point of view for this ad. They may feel they are being subjected to overly graphic details of a bike rider doing the wrong thing ... and has been mentioned many times it not only gives them the moral high ground it removes all resposibility from the truly guilty party.

I don't think people are disputing this point of view ... in fact the agreement is probably unanimous. But the story telling in the ad doesn't present that picture either.

I crossed out part of your point two becasue if I do know people that travel as you suggested they are not 'bragging' to me about it.

A car will kill you regardless of speed...

yours or it's...

if they abuse your rights on the road.

That is the point here.

You can't go slow enough to prevent that.

Just sayin'.

IMHO, Polvio is right on one hand and wrong on the other.

True, but people who cause an accident should at least be made to feel remorse for their actions. They should not be exonerated or excused just because they are in a car and the other person was on a motorcycle.

If the rider in the commercial was traveling at egregiously high speeds, then they would clearly be the cause of the accident. However in the ad, the motorcyclist is only traveling ~40 mph. This is not very fast and there is no excuse for the car not seeing the moto. I wonder, would the sentiment would be the same if a car traveling 40mph hit the side of the car that pulled out...

Same response to #1

I believe the outrage here is the seeming acquittal of the car driver. And it is this attitude that further reduces the concern and awareness that car drivers have for motorcyclists. It's like running over a squirrel... no crime, no punishment. It's the squirrel's fault for running out into the road. Therefore no worry about hitting another.

What would be a better ending is having the cops making an arrest for involuntary manslaughter and vehicular homocide. Then the commentator can say "Yes, the biker had the right of way, but he will not be going home. Drive responsibly, blah blah blah..."

Amen  [clap]!

+1

True (and whilst it is true, its also not the main cause of the collision IMO, yet it is presented as such).

True.  This though is merely a fact of motorcycling and IMO nothing to do with the thrust of this ad.

True.  This though is merely a fact of motorcycling and IMO nothing to do with the thrust of this ad.

Nope, instead you bought the message they intended to sell.

Not here in the State where the ad originated.  Here speed however minor... is speed... and is deemed (simplistically) the main reason for all road trauma.  And in order to be seen to be countering this scourge - as seen in this ad - massive emphasis is placed on this one aspect.  Its speed that does the killing, so we book you for that and whilst we're "solving" that problem there's also a windfall to State finances.  Its simplistic and its cynical.  And its in that light that there's such local outrage to this ad.

Exactly.

No flaming going on here mate.  I'm sure all of us are sorry to know that and understand the perspective it gives you.

That ad is an insult to the memory of every motorcyclist killed by a careless car driver.
I've seen too many funerals also, but understand the ad in the context of anti motorcycling policies in my state.
The ad is culpable in that it perpetrates driver disregard for riders and puts us more at risk.
Some of you that "protesteth too much" in support of the ad either don't understand the local context (fair enough), or are giving away your own pecuniary interest.

Something that I forgot to point out in my previous post is that the posted speed limit will not save a rider from an accident. Whether the posted speed limit was 35mph or 45mph, the fact remains that the car failed to yield to the moto, and that is the cause of death. I was in a similar situation where a car pulled out in front of me and I was doing 45mph, which was the speed limit. I was going faster than the guy in the original video, yet I was able to ride home (and change my shorts).

Fortunately, I had anticipated the actions of the car and covered the brakes and clutch just in case. Good for me. Shame on the car driver for being such a bonehead.

What language was that guy in the yellow vest speaking?

;-)

Oooohh an article in the mainstream press criticising the ad:

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/giving-way-on-the-road-wont-kill-you-either-20120509-1yczr.html (http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/giving-way-on-the-road-wont-kill-you-either-20120509-1yczr.html)

 [thumbsup] A bit of sanity! What's in the water cooler at the TAC down there?!

Unfortunately, a senior bureacrat has a micropenis, his mum wouldn't let him buy a motorcycle, and he had his girlfriend stolen by a biker in high school.

[laugh]

I think you are blowing this a bit out of proportion. Your opinion of the ad's meaning is just that. Your opinion. Unless you were there when they wrote the copy you can't say what the message of the ad means or doesn't mean.

I still say the rider should have had the sense to ride more defensively with the blind intersection issue. Expect a car to pull out. Know how to brake properly. Better lane position. But of course...that's just one of many opinions.

And you know what they say about opinions...

[clap]

What you say is true, however where is the admonition for the driver of the car? Face it, professional advertisers design these commercials. Lots of CG work went into creating it. Lots of money was spent in the making. There was no mistake in the scripting, and I would argue that everything in that ad, every inclusion and every exclusion, was very intentional.

Since so many folk (including me) are angry about this PSA, well intentioned or not, they blew this add.  I believe most of us understand that the burden of safety is on the rider we must take responsibility but safety is everyone's job.

Here's a more positive message....
MotorCycle Safety 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkwlXwGuTyA&feature=player_embedded#)
...from Tasmania too  :o ;)

I like this message. It underscores the safety responsibility of the rider, and poignantly point out the lack of awareness and regard on the driver's part. Hopefully this raises the awareness (regardless of how little) for drivers how they need to be more aware of riders.