(http://i.imgur.com/3T6xk.jpg)
Top part of the L of timing belt
(http://i.imgur.com/cUutf.jpg)
Bottom part of L of timing belt
(http://i.imgur.com/mg0qP.jpg)
Right bottom part of L of timing belt which I suspect is off?
So are the little black nubs the position the belt is supposed to be in for the top and right of the L that is the timing belt? if that is the case is it a fair assumption that the belt has slipped a couple teeth which is why the top and bottom of L are in the correct position but right side of L is off? I suspect this is the reason I have no compression in my horizontal cylinder and my bike wont start.
2000 ducati Monster900
Yep, that horizontal belt is off by ~5 teeth, and way too loose. You tried to run it like this? The Koreans have a noise that is the sucking of air through clenched teeth... It means nothing good :o
I defer to those with more experience, but I suspect bent valves at the least.
if both pips on the gears don't match the witness on the valve head when one is lined up then something is wrong.
How is that even possible... Anyway I'd loosen the adjuster, put it right, and see what happens. Can't get worse.
If you pull the belts off, that is the far clockwise position of the horizontal camshaft before any resistance is encountered. When replacing the belt, you have to line the mark up with the nub.
The tensioner is on the bottom of the belt, so in this case will only pull it further out of time.
I do agree that if the OP pulls the belt, re-orients the cam to the appropriate position and re-tensions and it runs... then no harm is done and certainly no more harm than already done in trying it once. I do know that a duc is an interference engine with very close tolerances between the piston and the valves... and no compression is a bad sign.
Thanks for some confirmation that is hopefully what will help me finally get this solved.
so, I pulled my bike out of storage. rode it home, started up fine. changed the oil. rode it another week or so and even went up on a canyon ride with no problems. one day it gets snowed on (stupid utah) in the morning so i move it under covered parking and it melts and is sunny by afternoon but the bike won't start. i then created a thread and went through all sorts of troubleshooting for why it wouldnt start. engine turns over the vertical cylinder is get 90psi (should be atleast 120) and the horizontal is getting nothing. after looking into all suggestions by other forum members to do this and that I know that spark is fine, battery is fine and fuel is fine. It hasnt been riding under this condition as far as I know. I think the belt was loose when I took it out of storage and somehow it skipped when i was riding it. I never heard any crazy noises that were obvious a piston was hitting a valve. only performance I ever noticed was a couple times I accelerated fast and it skipped a little (maybe this was the timing belt slip) but I thought it was just the chain needing to be lubed. Prior to being winterized I drove it to TX and back so it hasnt been having any problems.
If I try and move the belt to line up correctly please give me idiot proof instructions. I am new to the mechanic thing.
If you're really unsure then you might get some help.
But, it's a pretty easy job.
Ducatitech.com "HowTo" Ducati Timing Belt Change (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vzPZ84ZRjU#)
It looks like you only need to worry about the one, Horizontal. Angles in the photos make it a bit hard to tell, but the vertical looks good, so you should be able to leave the drive pulley where it is in the photos and just re align the horizontal driven pulley
Hopefully you'll be lucky and not have a bent valve.
Okay... Move the belt to the proper position and she lives! she didn't start right up but she runs now. no unusual sounds and felt fine riding it up to second gear. the only thing that i'm confused about now is that it took a long time to warm up (the choke was completely open for more than 10 minutes and when i tried to let off it died) after riding it around the block it would idle with the choke closed but it was obviously struggling.
I am assuming the belt slipped cause it was lose (when it slipped and how much it was ridden after I have no idea cause I noticed no issues in performance or unusual sounds). and then when i went to tri and start it up the computer wouldn't let it cause of the timing belt being off? (can someone confirm if the computer or a sensor does indeed do this?)
Other than the bad idle the compression in the front cylinder is still the same (low enough that the compression tester doesnt even get a reading)
Is it safe to ride at all? where do I go from here starting with the easiest things to elimintate and determine why the bad idle and why no compression in the front cylinder? Is it a clear sign that a valve must be bent open or something to explain no compression?
Thanks guys.
Have you been running with the belt covers off? Some of the dirt in those pictures is evenly spread across where the belt covers should have been.
If the answer to the question is yes your problem is obvious.
Something is REALLY wrong with that motor.
Take out the spark plugs, get a bright torch and peer into the plug holes.
My guess is there's bent valve/s and/or a hole in the piston/s.
I would suggest you get someone with some mechanical knowledge to come and help you out, maybe get it on a trailer and take it to them, even if that means a 10 hour drive.
I'd put a timing disk and crank turning tool on the crank, take off the covers over the inlet valves and work out where things are in the suck,squeeze, bang, blow cycle. I would check that the central pulley mark lines up with the crankcase mark when the horizontal (front) cylinder is at TDC on the compression stroke first, and take it from there. If you can't do those things get someone who can.
Quote from: Traeden on May 16, 2012, 10:26:35 PMand then when i went to tri and start it up the computer wouldn't let it cause of the timing belt being off? (can someone confirm if the computer or a sensor does indeed do this?)
The computer senses crank angle - there's no way for it to know camshaft angle - it infers this from crank angle only.
You've bent your valves, btw. That's why no compression.
I had ridden it around for a time with the timing belt cover over the front part of horizontal cylinder removed. so without question valves are bent and need to be replaced?
Used motors in good shape can be had for $600-$1000 off eBay. Just throwing it out there. You need serious engine work by the sounds of things, and if you're not up to doing it yourself, that may be more economical. No offense, but it sounds like you aren't ready right now. Of course you have to start somewhere, but this is an extremely ambitious project to learn on, and no matter how skilled you are, you'll want help from a machine shop for new valve guides/seats. Putting in a new engine isn't a walk in the park, but there's a lot less room for error than rebuilding your engine, and you don't have to worry about fixing the collateral damage and making sure that you've actually found and fixed the problem that lead to your belts being incredibly loose in the first place.
If you can find a good head from an identical engine, it's just a matter of swapping the head and maybe the piston.
Sometimes the pistons are just scratched a bit and can be used without trouble.
This is the horizontal head?
Don't even need to remove it from the engine.
I figure about 2 hours of work if you have the donor head off.
no offense taken bond... i am a young grass hopper and have learned a lot about my monster with what i have done but never any serious rebuild work. it is the horizontal cylinder thats got 0 compression. so i can buy a new cylinder and just swap them out? does it have to be exact year and make or is there some variety?
Not the whole cylinder, just the cylinder head.
900 heads varied. They are marked on the left side of the bike with something like W or V2. there is significant difference between them. If your bike has the W heads, it should be cheaper to acquire a single head because they are less desirable from a performance perspective.
Not rocket science to replace, but it will require a torque wrench. You should probably do new belts while you are at it.
Quote from: mergatroyd on May 17, 2012, 10:13:18 AM
Not the whole cylinder, just the cylinder head.
900 heads varied. They are marked on the left side of the bike with something like W or V2. there is significant difference between them. If your bike has the W heads, it should be cheaper to acquire a single head because they are less desirable from a performance perspective.
Not rocket science to replace, but it will require a torque wrench. You should probably do new belts while you are at it.
Exactly.
Pick up a set of Orings. If you are careful, you can remove the head without disturbing the cylinder. The Orings are pretty standard oil resistant type so you just need to get some that are the same size (I think it's 2 or 3 on thehorizontal)
Tork wrench and some way to get the nuts on and off -- there are ducati head nut tools on ebay. It's the angle that is the problem.
You just have to match the head type as described. W heads are small valve 900 heads and V2 are large valve.
If you pick up a complete head, then you're pretty much good to go. Beyond belts, I would do the valve gapping too.
Triple check the piston surface. Might have to decoke it some to see for sure.
As a relevant question - how do you get at the top right nut on the horizontal head? There's that backing for the belt cover that cuts off any useful access.
That's a good point that you could just replace the cylinder head probably, but make sure that the piston is intact and be 100% sure that you've figured out how your belt lost so much tension in the first place so that it doesn't happen again.
And for SadPanda (and others), that's what the cylinder head nut tool is for. IIRC really the least accessible nut is on the vertical cylinder, but I could be wrong. Either way, with the tool it's not hard.
There is a $12 (shipped) alternative to the Ducati tool that I discovered. I've been meaning to post this elsewhere, but I haven't gotten around to it. It's available from Summit Racing (and probably elsewhere too). It's called a distributor clamp wrench 13mm & 15 mm made by Performance Tool, part number W1186. It's hard to tell in the pictures online, but the top and bottom separate, so you have basically an L shaped tool that has a 12pt 15mm cutout on the bottom, and accepts a 3/8" drive ratchet / breaker bar / torque wrench on top. Important note: Make sure to attach the torque wrench at 90 degrees to the tool when torquing, or your torque value will be wrong.
I just snapped a picture of it with a breaker bar attached in the orientation that you would attach a torque wrench.
(http://www.mediafire.com/conv/16740ab4e3e495f42b207f8a79df771d5ded752bebbd89da6c82d2749cab82a74g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?thumb=5&quickkey=4c55acpwh9db4c9)
Hope that helps, and good luck, whichever route you end up taking!
Nice! Thanks for that!
SHIT I just bought 5, that's awesome
$7 on amazon.com
http://www.amazon.com/DISTR-CLAMP-WRENCH-OFFSET-METRIC/dp/B001DKT5LG (http://www.amazon.com/DISTR-CLAMP-WRENCH-OFFSET-METRIC/dp/B001DKT5LG)
Glad you found it useful, Ducatiz, but 5? They're not Snap-On or anything, but they're not disposable one-time use either! ;D
His rule is usually one for every bike... he's got problems.
Quote from: bond0087 on May 18, 2012, 09:53:02 AM
Glad you found it useful, Ducatiz, but 5? They're not Snap-On or anything, but they're not disposable one-time use either! ;D
i lose shit. i have at least 3 alternator cover tools floating around my garage for some reason.
Bond...you just made my day with that tool. [beer]
Might want to throw that in the cheaper alternatives to OEM thread!
Quote from: bond0087 on May 17, 2012, 11:41:22 AM
That's a good point that you could just replace the cylinder head probably, but make sure that the piston is intact and be 100% sure that you've figured out how your belt lost so much tension in the first place so that it doesn't happen again.
And for SadPanda (and others), that's what the cylinder head nut tool is for. IIRC really the least accessible nut is on the vertical cylinder, but I could be wrong. Either way, with the tool it's not hard.
There is a $12 (shipped) alternative to the Ducati tool that I discovered. I've been meaning to post this elsewhere, but I haven't gotten around to it. It's available from Summit Racing (and probably elsewhere too). It's called a distributor clamp wrench 13mm & 15 mm made by Performance Tool, part number W1186. It's hard to tell in the pictures online, but the top and bottom separate, so you have basically an L shaped tool that has a 12pt 15mm cutout on the bottom, and accepts a 3/8" drive ratchet / breaker bar / torque wrench on top. Important note: Make sure to attach the torque wrench at 90 degrees to the tool when torquing, or your torque value will be wrong.
I just snapped a picture of it with a breaker bar attached in the orientation that you would attach a torque wrench.
(http://www.mediafire.com/conv/16740ab4e3e495f42b207f8a79df771d5ded752bebbd89da6c82d2749cab82a74g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?thumb=5&quickkey=4c55acpwh9db4c9)
Hope that helps, and good luck, whichever route you end up taking!
There is a formula to convert the torque too.
M1 = M2 x L1 / L2
http://www.norbar.com/calculators/torque-wrench-extension-calculator.aspx (http://www.norbar.com/calculators/torque-wrench-extension-calculator.aspx)
The site has illustrations to explain.
My wrench arrived today and worked like a charm in a test go. Not ready to pull my head, but the nuts are loose.
For anyone else I do recommend some penetrating oil sprayed on few time/days before. You really don't want to strip the nut or turn out the stud