Ducati Monster Forum

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/race/motogp/ducati-out-of-motogp-its-not-impossible/ (http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/race/motogp/ducati-out-of-motogp-its-not-impossible/)

"And the fact that the sports bike market is shrinking only adds to that pressure – why spend millions going racing when it no longer promotes your core products?"

the concept of a rev limit has always made this a possibility..

There are dozens of factors that would push them out of GP. I won't be the least bit surprised to see it.

How long does Ducati's contract with Dorna last?

I doubt cutting a contract short and paying some punitive costs would stop them from doing it, if Audi wants it that way.

I thought they pulled out of WSBK to help develop the 1199 further for the series not to fund MotoGP.  And I remember someone saying they did the same thing when the 1098 came out?

Ducati delayed the 1098's entry for a year while they homologated it and ran the 999 one final year. But they never pulled out.

they didn't really pull out of WSBK this time, either.

I thought they pull out of WSBK to 1) allow developmental time for the 1199 and to 2) pay Rossi's salary.  Considering how far behind they are in GP, the new owner might as well cut the cord before finishing mid-pack further tarnish the Ducati's name...

it'll depend on what happens when they put out the non-90° GP engine + whatever the real feeling is of Audi towards motorcycle racing.  they're obviously big on racing cars.  either they also feel that way about (prototype) bikes, or they don't.

if valentino can win or challenge in the dry, i can't imagine walking away when you have the prospect of rossi-on-a-ducati GP title.  but maybe he still can't ride the new engine in the dry, in which case he won't be there.

The funny part is that if the 1199 is successful, they can only give credit to the failed experiment in MotoGP. The actual engine development is a waste of time, V4, but most electronics currently running in those bikes are directly related to what was developed in MotoGP.

checa and bayliss already call it a success.  and checa is talking about looking forward to riding it next year.

with a longer view, i'd probably say most of it was developed in formula 1, adapted to gp, and then trickled down to production racing and eventually production bikes.

it still goes to show the trickle down theory of using racing as an R&D mule for production for which Audi does currently with their own technology...look at the R18 and what they did in the 24 hours of LeMans for example...

I don't see the point of Ducati being in MotoGP right now.  I did see the point when they did it -- they wanted to create the new frameless design because the trellis was/is reaching the end of what can be done with it.  They wanted to use racing to develop that design, and you can't do that in production-based racing if you don't have the technology in production yet.

They were not as successful in MotoGP with the frameless design as they would have liked (we'll call that an understatement), but they did learn enough to develop a production version of the technology that apparently works pretty well.  And then they went in MotoGP to a frame style that they have never used in production, and very likely never will.

So:
(a) They now can develop their frameless tech in Superbike racing.  And now that electronics are also on production bikes and prevalent in WSB, they can develop the electronics there as well.
And:
(b) MotoGP is developing nothing useful, and not garnering wins and good publicity either.

If I was in charge, I'd give it to the end of this season, and if the bike is good enough by then for Rossi to get regular podiums and at least contest seriously for wins on it, then I'd stay with it for the prestige factor.  And if not, I'd drop the whole MotoGP program.

PhilB

Might not be developing too much for a little while....

http://www.twowheelsblog.com/post/10275/ducati-production-at-risk-after-earthquake (http://www.twowheelsblog.com/post/10275/ducati-production-at-risk-after-earthquake)

Or, did Audi send Wotan to Italy to shake things up and make a reason to move the factory to the Fatherland  ;D

One thing I have to wonder about is how well can Audi insert itself into Ducati's supply chain?

Basically, can Audi's supply chain step up and start making Ducati parts? And earthquake or not, will we start seeing more "Fabrik in Deutschland" (made in Germany) on more Ducati parts?

Maybe then Ducati will start stamping torque specs on their parts like KTM does ;D [thumbsup] [thumbsup] [thumbsup]

I bet not for most things, but some of the German electrical bits and gubbins and nodules might appear on future models, which would likely be a good thing.

It would be a great thing if they promoted Ducati to be better about parts.  My only real complaint about Ducati ownership has been that parts are too often too long in arriving.  And as my bike gets older, it only gets worse.  I had my forks rebuilt recently, and it's lucky that the cartridges in it were still good, as we discovered that new replacements are no longer available.  And now I need the two front master cyliders rebuilt, and even though that's a simple wear/maintenance part, Ducati doesn't supply that for this style anymore either.  I've got two shops looking for the kits, while every time I squeeze the clutch level it spritzes a little brake fluid on my tank.

PhilB

I guess we in the Bay Area take that for granted. I never have trouble getting parts, and we have a plethora of shops to help us.

This can be one downside of modern, "lean style" production and supply chain methods:

You don't keep a lot of parts on hand and may even make replacement parts on demand.

If the models keep changing, you find yourself SOL down the road when that part is discontinued. The older monsters were one of the better bikes in this regard since they started life as a "parts bin" bike.

In the bay area we also benefit from the large number of crashed Ducatis out here. Lots of "bone yards" to pick over...

Companies survive by marketing, and what will Ducati market if they are not in the biggest racing event?

The history of the company is wrapped up in GP racing, can they pull out of it and say they are still a racing company?  Yes, yes, SBK..  but that's not the top class.

Audi didn't want Ducati because it needed to be restructured and reformed, they wanted them to have a full portolio of racing (well, except for F1).   I think people forget that Audi actually races quite a bit, and I really cannot see them pulling Ducati out of GP.

THAT being said, they have claimed that they are not in F1 because it doesn't lend itself to road use -- that they only do racing that develops systems for their customers cars (i.e. quattro)

So unless GP has some developmental use for them, they might axe it...

Then again, they bought a profitable company.

Maybe they'll focus on building an a/c MC engine with valve guides that last more than 15,000 miles.... [roll]

the history of the company is wrapped up in racing, period. they seemed to do pretty well before 2003 (when they started competing in motogp).

Maybe MotoGP was a step too far?

they sure as hell didn't think so in 2007.

...or valencia, 2006.

Werd  [thumbsup]

Not everyone lives there.  I've consistently had the problem of long lead times for parts (3-5 weeks for pretty much anything, sometimes longer, once up to 5 months) in San Diego, where there are multiple dealers -- not exactly a backwater.  Now I'm in New Hampshire, which is less urban, but still not way out there.  I've got two authorized dealers nearby.  I'm looking for new parts to maintain my bike.  Yeah, sure, I can start to collect parts bikes and scrounge salvages, but really -- master cylinder rebuild kits shouldn't be a problem part to buy.

The history of Ducati is wrapped up in WSB, really.  Until 2006, they hadn't competed in GP since, well, the beginning of time.  Cagiva competed in MotoGP for a couple years in the '90's, but not under the Ducati name.

PhilB

Is this a widespread problem now?  They have in the past.  On my bike, the valve guide seals (little rubber parts) need to be replaced every 40-60K, but the guides themselves are still the original ones.

PhilB

i don't know what you mean by pretty well, they were not profitable (since the 1960s) at all until around 2005.. two (maybe three) bankruptcy restructurings since 1970.  they survived-- barely.  7 different owners between 1970 and present and they survived due to official loans designed mainly to keep the employees' union working.  perhaps it's the opposite?  They entered in 2003 and then became profitable 2 years later?



That's a good point WSB vs GP, but I wonder if it will bear badly for them to pull out.. I.e. if they were winning they wouldn't quit.

But it's a good point considering they have only ONE MGP championship (2007) in the history of the race.  MV and Honda are the two biggest winners by make..

Ducati starting getting profitable when it stopped being just a motorcycle manufacturer and started being a name.
From Ducati toys, clothes, shoes, etc. They sold the name with a lifestyle attached. And it sold well.

Good point... It's a good question whether MotoGP matters, especially if they are pushing SBK.  It would certainly make SBK more interesting if Ducati focused all their racing Euros on that.

Somewhere I have the Ducati annual report from about 5-6 years back, and this was a HUGE part of their strategy to be successful.

They even pointed to Harley deriving the bulk of their income from merch, and not bikes.

I have mixed feelings about this, but if they have the money to race and continue to make cutting edge bikes, I'm happy (although I despise asperational/lifestyle brands)

If everyone of the people signed onto their Facebook page buys a Tshirt once, that's the equivalent of them selling about 7500-10,000 bikes profit-wise)

(assuming a t-shirt costing $30 with a profit of about $25/shirt)

Do that once a year and they have a nice little side income.

Maybe that's why Ducati has been sticking the 90 degree V4?  Because with that angle, there might be some parts of the engine development that can trickle down to the production vtwin.

At this point, I don't want *anything* trickling down to me from Ducati's GP efforts :)

I wouldn't turn down their tire warmers  8)

I'm not sure I'd want *anything* related to traction from the Desmosedici [bang] [bang] [bang]
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-7svSNB7SJ_Q/TZnfq1nWdgI/AAAAAAAAAKc/V5zf43i1W3c/s1600/crash_stoner_rossi008_preview_medium_169.jpg)

So... basically...

best thing to come out of Duc MotoGP effort =

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_a4j75dXzehY/SqkDOklPDhI/AAAAAAAAAVQ/uNEEqpHGdKM/s400/09_paddock_girls.jpg)

Anything worth saying is worth saying twice...

been.. past tense

The first few years of the 1000DS engines afaik.  Point was that in this time of high-tech prototype development the company ought to have at least one engineer who understands materials.

I will need exhaust guide in7500 miles so about 15k til they wiggle too much

Be sure not to testride an 1199 Panigale, then.

PhilB

I won't...I'll just test ride a friend's :)

I'm pretty sure the engineers understand the materials...

just as the bean counters know the costs of those materials.

I doubt the race motors have guide wear issues.

 [laugh] [laugh]

Which does bring up a question I've been dying to know the answer to: What constitutes a "new" motor per GP rules?

Cases? Top end? Crank?

Or is like the "unlimited modification" rule that allowed folks to melt down a Harley motor and build a different motor out of that motor's metal and still call it a Harley motor?

During the racing season?

Any motor that's presented to Tech Inspection, passes, and is sealed.

AFAIK, they're allowed to service the clutch and swap trans ratios/parts.
But other than that, hands off.

Derby or another rules boffin may have a more correct definition.....

Hard to believe that valve-guide prices on a production MC make much difference in the manufacturing cost - besides, it cost them more in the long run to honor the warranties (in some cases) than it would have if they had done it right in the first place.  If cost were the key consideration, then all the UJMs that don't have valve-guide issues should cost more than they (and a Duc) do.

re: warranty.  They only have to last 2 years. 

if the difference in cost between a 10 yr and a 2yr +1 day guide is 20% you can bet they will go for the cheaper one.