I am in Ohio on my journey with limited access to tools and need some help with a starting issue.
My bike : 32,680 miles
Ducati S2R1000
Problem :
will not start. No spark
Diagnosis :
I test the spark plugs, no spark on any of them. The pickups cannot be all bad, so i checked the timing sensor. Once removed, i cranked the engine and notice the starer gear does not start. However the clutch will spin. and the pistons are turning over.
My question is, will the clutch and engine turn over from a damaged sprag gear? i am pulling the cases as we speak.
If the motor is cranking the sprag is good
Great, because i split the cases and i came to the conclusion that the sprag was good by visual inspection.
So heres an update:
I have never split the cases on this bike and touched the left side of the bike.
Here are my findings:
I removed the left side case and noticed that the flywheel was still attatched to my case cover. It is not suppose to be attatched my case cover, but rather it should be locked onto the crankshaft.
When opening i found that flywheel securing nut was floppign all over the place. so the nut had backed up and the flywheel was just barely hanging on.
The nut has since stripped beyond repair and the threads on teh crank still appear to be good. the first thread is short of mashed up, but im sure it will catch.
here are the pictures.
WHen i pulled of the case, this is what i saw. the flywheel should be on that crankshaft!\
(http://kuixihe.com/gallery3/var/resizes/Trips/Move-to-Colorado/P1020650.JPG?m=1338152202)
This is the crank shaft
(http://kuixihe.com/gallery3/var/resizes/Trips/Move-to-Colorado/P1020653.JPG?m=1338152290)
This is the alternator, Im not sure where the metal shavings came from. I think its from the bolts. You can see that they have been sheared and grinded off. i cant tell what did that exactly.
(http://kuixihe.com/gallery3/Trips/Move-to-Colorado/P1020652)
And atop of it all. i just realize i have to admit fault to this.
WHen my clutch basket came off. i think there was enough torque to have backed this nut out. i never put 2 and 2 together until now.
So, i only have myself to blame.
the issue is where can i get this nut?
does anyone have one so i could have it shipped.
I have a nut from an injected 900. Should be the same.
How can I get it to you?
Quote from: Monsterlover on May 27, 2012, 04:22:24 PM
I have a nut from an injected 900. Should be the same.
How can I get it to you?
Send him some red loctite in the box. ;D
Quote from: ducpainter on May 27, 2012, 04:33:14 PM
Send him some red loctite in the box. ;D
Yeah I thought of that too [laugh]
seriously!
Now i just need to run this through to you guys.
The stater gear is working, it spins the flywheel and the sprag gear is good because it spins the stator hub.
through this process, the crank shaft is spinning. But the timing gear is not spinning. the tiing gear powers the timing belts as well, so was i just super lucky for the bike to have failed without bending any valves?
Quote from: He Man on May 27, 2012, 04:59:34 PM
seriously!
Now i just need to run this through to you guys.
The stater gear is working, it spins the flywheel and the sprag gear is good because it spins the stator hub.
through this process, the crank shaft is spinning. But the timing gear is not spinning. the tiing gear powers the timing belts as well, so was i just super lucky for the bike to have failed without bending any valves?
Hopefully...
i guess theres no way to tell if the valves are bent or not?
Quote from: He Man on May 27, 2012, 06:15:30 PM
i guess theres no way to tell if the valves are bent or not?
Leak down test...
compression test if there's no way to do the leak down.
Just make sure the layshaft is correctly timed before you button things up and start it.
no way to do a leak down test , a compression test, yest, but i would have to lift the rear wheel to turn the pistons.
right now the issue is timing. i can line up the timing for the layshaft, but that doenst mean that the pistons are at the right timing. the stator hub doesnt have mark on it anymore, atleast i cant find it, im pretty sure it grinded off. but if the belts are lined up for timing and the layshaft is lined up for timing, i should be good to go right?
WOW! Sorry to hear this.
I'm having a hard time following this, probably due to terminology. The stator is the winding with three wires coming out of it that is (or was) attached to the side cover. The flywheel is the big, heavy piece that is (or was) attached to the crankshaft with the big nut. I assume the flywheel is what came loose. There is a lump on the flywheel. When the lump passes the ignition pick up spark is created. The flywheel must be put back in the right position for spark to happen at the right time.
I'm also confused as to what you mean by the timing gear. I can't think of a reason why the timing sprockets on the crankshaft would not be spinning with the crank if the flywheel comes loose. The sprockets are mated to the shaft with woodruff keys. These would have to be sheared.
Do you have internet access so you can see the manuals on your website?
When you get the bike back together turn the engine over by hand. If you use the back wheel be gentle. Your back wheel plus the gearing really increases your force you are applying.
Keep us posted.
Yes, the flywheel did come loose and it started spinning into the case and the case took some damage, however it isnt significant enough to make it unusable.
this is what im using as far as terminology. im at metallimonsters home (by the way this guy is a great host and has been extremely patient with me so far and has done more than i can imagine to help me through this). i was lucky enough to remember that the manual i have for my bike is on my server and downloaded it. ive been staring at it for the past 8 hours.
(http://kuixihe.com/gallery3/var/albums/Trips/Move-to-Colorado/parts.jpg?m=1338213499)
the woodruff was not sheared (though ti moves around around and that appears to be normal). The woodruff is the only thing that holds the timing sprocket to the crank shaft. otherwise it wouldnt move.
ill try to snap more pics after breakfast.
When you get a nut the crank/cam timing will be fine.
Just verify that the layshaft mark lines up when the horizontal cyl is at tdc.
You can do that with a screw driver in the plug hole.
which marks on the layshaft? I was lining it up with the 2 dots, one on the timing sprocket and one on the timing gear. On my manual it reads that the dots need to meet and it will be in time.
since the sprocket can only slip on to the crank shaft via the woodruff, then the dot can only ever be in 1 place relative to the layshaft.
the small guy here is what engages everything so as long as the woodruff is there.
(http://www.google.com/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://creative-gator.com/img/Ducati%20Supersport%20timinggears2phaase.JPG&sa=X&ei=7IfDT_W1HM236QHh0vzFDQ&ved=0CAkQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNGKvwJldOi65dJSWk6L26r61mYjsw)
Would it be worth pulling the belts and turning the cams over by hand to check for binding from bent valves?
Quote from: He Man on May 28, 2012, 07:14:24 AM
which marks on the layshaft? I was lining it up with the 2 dots, one on the timing sprocket and one on the timing gear. On my manual it reads that the dots need to meet and it will be in time.
since the sprocket can only slip on to the crank shaft via the woodruff, then the dot can only ever be in 1 place relative to the layshaft.
the small guy here is what engages everything so as long as the woodruff is there.
(http://www.google.com/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://creative-gator.com/img/Ducati%20Supersport%20timinggears2phaase.JPG&sa=X&ei=7IfDT_W1HM236QHh0vzFDQ&ved=0CAkQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNGKvwJldOi65dJSWk6L26r61mYjsw)
I was talking about the mark on the belt pulley on the layshaft/case.
Quote from: Monsterlover on May 28, 2012, 07:17:42 AM
Would it be worth pulling the belts and turning the cams over by hand to check for binding from bent valves?
I really don't think the timing gears came unmated wile it was running...don't think there's enough room to move.
That said a quick compression test would give an equally good idea if there were more problems.
oh you mean on the right side of the motor. Ive got them lined up right now. and these two dots are also lined up. sounds like it should be in time.
The timing gears had to have come unmated because the timing gear was not moving when i was looking through the ignition pickup sensor port, yet the pistons were still moving.
the woodruff can move move, so im asuming it moved enough so it can no longer engage the tiing gear on the layshaft.
i think this is the part number i need
779.1.109.1A
Quote from: He Man on May 28, 2012, 07:39:19 AM
oh you mean on the right side of the motor. Ive got them lined up right now. and these two dots are also lined up. sounds like it should be in time.
The timing gears had to have come unmated because the timing gear was not moving when i was looking through the ignition pickup sensor port, yet the pistons were still moving.
the woodruff can move move, so im asuming it moved enough so it can no longer engage the tiing gear on the layshaft.
Did you have to move the timing gears on the left side?
I think you're mistaken about what was and wasn't turning...
doesn't matter.
If the marks line up put it together. It will run or not.
Quote from: He Man on May 28, 2012, 07:55:23 AM
i think this is the part number i need
779.1.109.1A
where did you get that #?
It's for the plug in the end of the shaft.
I think you need 750.1.012.2A Nut
you are correct, i read the number above that one by mistake.
750.1.012.2A Nut is the correct part i would assume.
i think its a m24x1.0 nut, and if all else fails i was going to call up Nicholas MFG and see if they can express set of their double nuts.
There is also a fastenal nearby, but they only carry 2.0 pitch.
I did not have to move the timing gear on the left side. That is the timing gear that is drives the pully directly, but the sprocket on the layshaft, i did move. it was mated to the timing gear, but i dont think it was mated to the crankshaft which is why the crank spun but the timing gear did not.
Quote from: Monsterlover on May 27, 2012, 04:22:24 PM
I have a nut from an injected 900. Should be the same.
How can I get it to you?
You could pm Kevin...he'd fed-ex it to you.
i pmed him, and ill know by tuesday morning if ill need it to be shipped. ( the local ducati dealership, some local techs and fastenal)
heres some more pics..
this is the woodruff, it normally doesnt sit in this position, but i suspect it moves around becasue oil comes out of it to lube the gears. It can swing in the other extreme as well. and in opposite position, i suspect it didnt engage the timing sprocket.
(http://kuixihe.com/gallery3/var/resizes/Trips/Move-to-Colorado/P1020659.JPG?m=1338227450)
here is the timing gear slipped over that woodruff. If the woodruff was sitting flush, then the starter gear would just be spinning on the crank shaft freely.
(http://kuixihe.com/gallery3/var/resizes/Trips/Move-to-Colorado/P1020657.JPG?m=1338227391)
some damage caused to the timing sprocket. the wooddruff doesnt show any damage.
(http://kuixihe.com/gallery3/var/albums/Trips/Move-to-Colorado/P1020658.JPG?m=1338227417)
there is light damage to the gear teeth. possibly due to the sprocket backing out.
(http://kuixihe.com/gallery3/var/albums/Trips/Move-to-Colorado/P1020662.JPG?m=1338227503)
here, we see the woodruff lined up with the sprocket, and the timing dots ill meet when the gears spin.
(http://kuixihe.com/gallery3/var/albums/Trips/Move-to-Colorado/P1020663.JPG?m=1338227530)
just neeed to watch out for that washer. cant let it go all out of wack.
(http://kuixihe.com/gallery3/var/resizes/Trips/Move-to-Colorado/P1020665.JPG?m=1338227597)
this is how i assuem the flywheel lines up. there is a notch on the laymen shaft, and it should correspond to the dot on the flywheel. i hope. i cant find any documentation of this.
(http://kuixihe.com/gallery3/var/albums/Trips/Move-to-Colorado/P1020668.JPG?m=1338227677)
Il lhave to double check but i think the flywheel should mate up better than it shows in the picture. seems like its not sitting fully flush.