Ducati Monster Forum

Is Ducati making any consumer ready bikes with Dry Clutches anymore?

  Streetfighter S, hyper 1100 S, last of the 1198's? Next year who knows if any will have a dry clutch.

 Never owning a dry clutch, I always wanted one so I could mod it out, I think it looks really cool and i feel it's the center piece to an already beautiful engine.
 The first time I herd one in person, clanging and jingling, almost louder that the exhaust, I thought to my self it sounds like something is broken, which my friend that was with me said something to that effect. Guess I wouldn't miss that so much.

 What will be next on the choping block? Will there be a time when a Ducati will just be the name and some red paint?

belts!

They can take the belts for all I care and fit gear driven cams, but I like the dry clutch.

Plenty of famous Ducatis didn't have a trellis frame or a dry clutch.  It's only relative nostalgia to what you remember as being the identity of Ducati.

When fuel injection and disc brakes started becoming prevalent on Honda autos in the late 1980s die hard moaned and those changes as well.

Progress makes machines obsolete which makes it increasingly apparent of our own mortality.

That's deep

Maybe some sort of bevel drive, that would be something special.

They were 'special' alright.  ;D

 [thumbsup] I love gear driven cams! I fitted them to my LeMans and to my FXDX Harley. And of course, MV's had them as standard. I wish Ducati's had them as well!

they do on the Desmosedici and the 1199

Ducati didn't invent the 90 degree twin, the desmo valve, the dry clutch or the trellis frame.

If anything, it has been a 50/50 proposition for them to market those things as "religion".. because it has stifled creativity and development.

Guzzi had dry clutches before Ducati did.  Benz had desmo valves on some of their earliest cars. 

Let them innovate.  I'd love to see what they could do with a parallel twin, or even a triple.  They made a triple in the 1950s (it was a diesel water pump). 

They made their bread and butter off springhead singles for nearly 30 years.

I ride with a few guys who have older Ducatis and a couple of them have open clutches.  I've heard a couple people tell these guys that there is something wrong with their bikes at some point or another.  I like the looks and the sound, I get that, but at the same time I have to say I'm completely satisfied with the wet clutch on my bike.

If you're not racing and dont need access to the clutch without draining... from a practical perspective I believe the wet clutch is the better option. If you're riding a Ducati though... aside from wanting a quality motorbike you obviously also appreciate the attention a Ducati gets which a dry clutch would increase. They look cool, they confuse people and people who know bikes are fascinated by them. Therein lies the appeal.

so.... What makes a Ducati a Ducati?  ???

Let's see ... No sealant on the left engine cover, radiator hose blew off, front plug wire
Fell off.  And don't forget the flaking rockers, the fly molded into the gas tank or the infamous
'flip the switch when the broken tail light bulb kills the entire electrical system'. 

Must be the Italian charm.

The label.  Cutting edge looks.  Innovation in design.

Honda makes 400,000 vehicles per year.  Cars, lawnmowers, water pumps, hedge trimmers, generators...  if they make a crappy bike, they shrug and move on and copy the next thing.

Yamaha, same.  Pianos, boat engines, trombones, toasters, dishwashers.  Ford used a Yamaha engine in the Taurus SHO years ago.

Suzuki, is closer to Ducati in that they make small cars, motorcycles and boat engines ONLY.  They don't make everything, just motors and motorsport stuff.

Ducati is unique in that it only makes motorcycles, and only about 35,000-40,000 per year.  I think their peak was 45,000 a few years back.

1,100 employee world wide.

I was never a real fan of the dry clutch on street bikes, although they do look cool. Too noisy though.

Now that I've raced a 748, 749, and an R6 (while my 749 is being repaired  :P), I don't like them on race bikes either. Sure, you can change out the clutch quicker, but that isn't a common requirement in club level racing (I've never had to change out a clutch). Wet cluthes are MUCH easier to launch though....I'll take that wet clutch advantage over the quick change advantage of a dry clutch anyday.  [thumbsup]

That would be similar to the SSS. You're supposed to be able to swap out the wheel quicker, but the SSS is heavier than the DSS. The weight far outweighs the need to replace a wheel.

I love the look and sound of a dry clutch, but prefer a wet clutch for day to day riding. The pull is a lot easier in traffic without the need of buying a hefty clutch slave and no fear that it's going to eat my pants, since I would ride with that shit wide open.

I disagree about that. I much prefer a SSS on a race bike, because when you have to switch to rain tires 30 minutes before your race it is really hassle free. Same thing if you want to change gearing...much easier with a quick change sprocket on an SSS set-up...setting chain tension is a lot easier since you don't have to also worry about wheel alignment.

My 748 (SSS) was lighter than my 749 (DSS), and I can't tell a difference when I'm riding. I don't see any real advantage to a DSS.

Let an engineer help you....it's easier to get a higher moment of inertia to resist bending and torsion using a DSS than it is with a SSS.  Typically you need significantly more material to resist both bending and torsion (especially torsion) between the swingarm pivot and the axle when using a SSS arrangement.  The 848/1098 gains that MOI by using very thin sections to gain distance from the neutral axis of the arm, but at the cost of survivability and possibly fatigue life.  I think you're incorrect about the weight of the SSS of the 9x6 bikes versus the DSS of the 999 models, though.  Terblanche switched back to DSS for the reasons I've given...to save weight and increase rigidity.  The early 999 DSS were cast and were, hence, quite heavy compared to the later (and Terblanche's original) thin section members.

As to dry clutches, the primary engineering advantage isn't in maintainability, but in reduced friction and decreased spring pressure.  When the rotating assembly runs in less dense air in lieu of more dense oil it requires less power to drive it.  It's a marginal gain, but it is a real one!  Also, friction/steel interfaces that are lubricated (that's what oil's for, after all!) require higher spring pressures to drive the rear wheel, which should lead to both fewer disks and lighter springs for a small weight savings in dry clutches versus wet clutches.

When it comes down to it, Ducati has built its reputation on performance.  They began using Desmodromic actuation because they couldn't rev their motors high enough in the '50s using contemporary spring technology.  They went to dry clutches because they wanted to homologate them for their racing bikes (just as Suzuki did with its limited edition GSX-R750R).  They've been early adopters for several metallurgical advances and coatings that they believed provided a competitive advantage.  They were the first manufacturer to offer streetbikes with traction control.  The trap is, now that those things are entrenched, how can they shed them and keep their "heritage".

The simple answer is to stay at the front of the technological curve and keep winning races!  If Desmodromic actuation adds cost to no significant advantage, ditch it!  Ditto trellis frame, 90° twins (folks seem to forget Ducati built its reputation in singles!), dry clutches, belt drives, and anything else that isn't what's needed to win races.

What makes a Ducati a Ducati?  WINNING!!!!!

Can't argue with that.  Everybody loves a winner.  If Michael Jordan weren't such a great player, people wouldn't have shave their heads and wear Nike's in the 90s.  But winning sometimes isnt' enough.  You've gotta have the good looks, charms (quirks), and little things that differentiate you from other copy cats (desmo, SSSA, L-Twin, trellis frame, dry clutch).  Ducati had done a great job at all the others, besides just winning on the track.  Well, winning does help a lot.

This quote makes me think Ducati is the Charlie Sheen of bikes and that isn't necessarily a comparison I want someone to draw...LOL

What he said.

I am an engineer actually...

For reference, I never said the SSS was lighter...I said the bike (748) was lighter, and I couldn't feel a difference in rigidity. My 748 with it's heavy ass, old-style design SSS was 15 lbs lighter than my 749 with its apparently lighter DSS...both full of fuel and both in full race trim (i.e., no lights, radiator fans, etc). It's also impossible to argue that a DSS isn't more of a pain in the ass to change a tire than an SSS. If you have to change your own tires, like the majority of racers (i.e., not pro) the SSS has a clear advantage over the DSS for racing as I've noticed first hand.

I get that a dry clutch has less drag, but I'd argue it is negligible unless you're in MotoGP trying to get every last 1/10 hp. Plenty of wet clutch bike do just fine in power when compared to Ducati. Dry clutches also have heavier lever pull than wet clutches, despite any theories on spring stiffness.  I'll take the supposed power loss and lack of quick change ability in exchange for a lighter lever and easier (i.e. smoother & more controlled) launches. My buddies 2003 R6 was FAR FAR easier to launch than my 748 or 749...both of which have high-end slipper clutches.

Theory is great...but I'll take practicality.

The tank badge; either an eagle or a bird.

I truly believe that desmo could be ditched for a conventional valvetrain in this day and age (sacrilege I know, but I'm an engineer too).

Think of the aftermarket camshaft possibilities alone.

+1

Though i shudder to think of what a monster would look like with out a trelis frame........

The 749 and 999 were heavier bikes compared to their predecessors. That is one of the reasons, beyond the looks, that people didn't dig it. I'm sure if you compare only the swing arms, the SSS would still be heavier. There are also quick change systems for DSS. I will agree that it's easier to change your own tire, but it should not be that frequently needed.

As to the dry clutch, completely agree. For me that is definitely more aesthetic than functional.

Agreed that the 749/999 series are heavy in general. The point though was that an SSS bike can be light, so the weight penalty of the SSS isn't a big deal (look at the 1199 for proof). The benefits of an SSS are significant IMO.

You'd be surprised how often you have to remove the wheels. Gearing changes for different tracks, new tires...or the biggie up here...rain. Maybe I should move somewhere I can race where it doesn't rain often!  [laugh]

A Buell?   [thumbsdown]

What makes a Ducati

an Italian Guy in a factory of course.

Besides that I'd say fundamental elements would be style, sound, Trellis Frame, Desmo and the mystique that surrounds the brand.

Although some would say Audi.

I read that Ducati is going to wet clutches to reduce noise.  Maybe to meet new lower epa noise requirements?  If that is the case then yes dry clutches are becoming extinct.

I've heard the same thing too, but I'm not sure I buy it.  Keeping the cover on with the internal baffle keeps them pretty quiet while they are new.  Could be though, coating the clutch in oil can't NOT dampen it though, but how much?

To me... ducs arent built around what kind of frames or clutches they have.  When I think of what it means to ride a duc... it means a bike that sacrifices general comfort and usability in return for a more sporting race bred nature.  From the monsters to the mts's to the sbks... each one was built around the idea of going fast first and then comfort second compared to it's competitors.  Hence, each one will be more annoying, fiddly, generally with ridiculous engine heat... till you start revving it up and riding it like you're supposed to.  It also helps that look like sex on wheels ;)

So yeah, lose the old tech if it's going to keep to that very single minded nature of ducs.  Bonus points if also makes it a bit more comfy, but that's secondary to the nature of the ride.

Though I have to say I never understood the attraction of dry clutches till I got one and opened it up... now it's weird for me to hear a bike without it.

in my humble opinion, ducati to ANY other bike is like a ferrari to a Mustang, you can NOT compare them, they are two different animals, ducati for example is a luxury bike, pleaseee guys let's do admit it that we spend thousands of thousands of dollars in mods (not to say simple maintenance!), I see guys that buy a honda or a yamaha and never ever would consider to do a mod, maybe a Hayabusha or a Termi exhaust and that put their hands to shake, we DUCS? F·$% we DO not do mods we INVENT mods, we get so damn wet just to look at somebody else mod, and please don't ever tell me that you have not even dream about a mod that, for monetary reasons, is just sitting there in the drawer of a desk... as for the dry clutch, I have a wet clutch 2002 620ie monster... BUT yesterday I just bought a 900M Dry clutch in pristine condition which I am gonna put where the wet one is, I know it is a complex mod, I know I need the gear of a 748 as well as oil pump, oil gear, 3 new spacers etc etc... but then again, what the f$%$ do I own? Sorry, MY Ducati owns me I am simply trying to please her in every damn way I can :) sooooo, as for the noise? Does Ducati think that we are stupid to believe that they are doing it for the noise? We buy the dry clutch precisely for that reason (Super Bike users have "slippy" don't give me the argument that for track use etc etc)  I think that we should consider writing a letter to let them know how we feel about taking away on emblem of our Ducati family, don't you think? AMEN!  [beer]

I'd love to go to a belt final drive.

something like this?
(http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm259/andrewb172/bike/189723_1461622441047_1848040911_861108_4425185_n.jpg)

Why? To me motorcycles and chains go hand in hand. Harley's are Belt driven and I think they look ridiculous.

 [laugh] [laugh]

Touche'

I do think the trellis frame has become part of Ducati's image and mystique, though. And it would be great if they always offered at least one model with the dry clutch. Or maybe a dry clutch option.

Well....I have the similar distinction of being an engineer, a motorcycle racer, and motorcycle mechanic.  I operate a small business called Desert Desmo, so I've changed hundreds or, more likely, thousands of tires over my lifetime.  SSS tires are easier to change.  I've never noticed either to be a significant pain in the ass.  SSS nuts have to be much tighter, requiring a larger torque wrench (you do torque those nuts, don't you?) and specialized tools (who carries those large sockets with them?) to change.  Ever been out in the boonies and lost the rear tire, either to wear or puncture, and had to have one changed?  I have.  A friend on a 1098 was actually stranded in southern Colorado because NOBODY in the area had tools to remove the rear wheel nut on his "new" bike.  However, unless you're running endurance races (or the Daytona 200) you (or, at least, I) don't really care about tire change times and are much more interested in rigidity and weight if you're serious about your avocation.

As to "unless you're running in MotoGP", the arguement should actually be "unless you're running in WSB" where parts have to be H-O-M-O-L-O-G-A-T-E-D.  That means you have to sell the parts you're racing (with exceptions sometimes allowed by rules) on the motorcycle you're racing.  That's where the dry clutch on Superbikes came from.  And, YES, Ducati care about that 1/10 of a HP...actually a little more than 1/10... along with entailed reduced weight.  Dry clutches on the other models was simply a marketing gimmick.

Also, as to weight....Ducati's published materials claim 748 to weigh 430 dry, and 749 to weigh 410 dry.....a 20 pound reduction.  748R is 422.5 pounds dry to 749R at 404.5 dry for a less obvious 18 pound reduction.  I never weighed them side by side in factory trim.  I never raced either model.  However, I'll lay odds that beginning with similar models (monoposto or R for both) and given similar prep the 749 would weigh less.

Clutch "pull" is a function of both the springs that engage the clutch and the mechanism that disengages them.  As an engineer I can say with fair certainty that I can design a dry clutch using less spring pressure than a wet clutch to drive a mechanism given a set amount of power to transmit, unless you know of some way to get higher friction in oil than in air.  There is no guarantee that Ducati (or any other manufacturer) use the lightest springs practical for any assembly, as they must account for a greater range of operating conditions and other factors in building street bikes.  I can also say with certainty that if I was designing a street bike I'd use a wet clutch for noise abatement and maintenance reasons.  Dry clutches can launch as well as wet clutches when they're set up correctly....but when they chatter they're a PITA.  Practicallity be damned in this case, the purpose of the dry clutch assembly was to win races.  

And, finally, if you're a fan of practicality why are you riding a Ducati?  They've NEVER been considered practical, even my the most liberal definition of the word!

Perhaps, but they have all the convenience of a shaft drive without the weight.

When you look at an HD belt you see ridiculousness.

When I look at one I see more time riding and less time adjusting, cleaning, or replacing.

@ Cloner

I don't find the large nut and torque values to be a problem, but I do carry the necessary socket with me. I would agree that a 4 bolt system like the VFR or Guzzi would be easier than the giant nut though. I still prefer the SSS. I personally can't notice a difference in rigidity, and I appreciate the ease of changing wheels and gearing...especially wheels when the race day starts off dry, and then it begins to rain 30 minute before my race. Ah, the joys of racing in the Pacific Northwest!  [laugh]

I've weighed both my bikes. 2002 748S = 400 lbs, 2006 749S = 415 lbs (both ready to race with fuel). I don't care what Ducati's PR data says. That's what my scale says. My 748 did have OZ wheels...but that was only about a 5 lb savings, so say it weighed 405 lbs at most. The point is...I don't see the SSS weight penalty as being significant.

I don't buy the dry clutch horsepower argument. I understand the reasoning, and agree there is likely a slight advantage...but ALL of the bikes in WSBK except the Ducati have wet clutches...and they all make more horsepower than the Ducs. The 1199 has a wet clutch and makes more hp than any previous dry clutch model (and also weighs less). I know, different motor configurations, blah, blah. To me it's a non-issue. I just prefer wet (except for looks) and don't see a real advantage to dry. I mentioned MotoGP because they all have dry clutches there (the factory bikes anyway).

Touche on racing a Duc; however, racing in itself isn't a very practical endeavor! I just like Ducatis.  [beer]

Someone had too much coffee today <cough>Cloner</cough>

I wear mine aroung my neck on a chain.   [Dolph]

As someone who knows (and works with Cloner) regularly, he's like this just about every day. ;D

Not to mention if belts were so great, someone would use them in SBK or MotoGP

the only recent Harley contribution to racing used a chain.

I reject the notion that all things relating to motorcycles must be judged by whether or not they are used in SBK or MotoGP.

all things relating to cars must be judged by whether or not they are used in NAAAASCAR.

harley switched to belt drive to comply with noise regs.  no other reason.

So?  This is pertinent to our comments about personal use/maintanence and professional racing how?

No other reason?  Really?

+1.

The one real downside of belts is the difficulty of making gearing changes; this matters a lot in racing, and little in real life.  The biggest upside of a belt instead of a chain is low maintenance; this matters a lot in real life, and little in racing.

Belts really are the best solution for street bikes (but not for dirt, where the belt is more susceptible to damage from stuff caught in it than a chain is).  They combine the efficiency of a chain with the low maintenance of a shaft, and weigh less than either, at a cost of slightly more space taken up than a chain does, and fewer options for changing gear ratios.

PhilB

if it matters little in real life, then why do so many people change sprocket ratio's for better or different drivability like a 14t front for city and low speed and various things like that?!?!?

Im pretty sure he means frequent changes... us on the street switch to the 14t front and we're done with it (unless you are changing your gearing every weekend for some reason), racing they are changing them up all the time depending on all their different factors.

Im not a fan of belt drives as I just think its weird but what PhilB said makes sense in my mind.

didn't even think of that.  none of my bikes have the original sprockets.

It matters little in real life because you don't make those changes often.  It's pretty much a one-time mod, so it doesn't really matter if it's a little more complicated to do that once.

This.

Mine isn't the original ratio either.  I changed it once, about 2 years after I got the bike, and it's been the same for the last 17 years.  I'm considering changing it again, as New England riding is different than wide-open-spaces Western riding.  The pain and cost of making those two changes in a belt system would more than have been compensated for by not having to buy the intervening 8 or so sets of sprockets and chains.

PhilB

The average Harley rider who wants a cruiser doesn't do that.  The HD (in my limited experience with Ducatis) makes far more usable low end torque in relation to the factory gearing than does the Ducati.  In other words the Harley is far more ridable at parking lot speeds that my S4RS, and it's been my impression that the sprocket change motivation for Ducati riders is most often motivated by a desire to smooth out the lower speed power delivery to the pavement.  At least it has been in my case.

This issue simply doesn't exist for Harleys.  Some HD riders do like to hot rod and they will often get a belt to chain conversion set up.

As an owner of a H-D VRSCR, I have to say I LOVE the belt final drive. I've got almost 9K on it and the belt still looks like new.....and I'm rather ham-fisted. And no chain lube fling.

They're more of a pain to re-gear, but there's really no reason to do so for road use given the power delivery. My only gripe about the bike is that it has no 6th gear, and it gets a little buzzy on an interstate jaunt (my V&H pipe contributes).

Now if you're going to drag race, it's chain all the way. The belts don't like high-RPM clutch dumps with sticky tires.  ;)

I like the looks of a traditional chain best but the belt drive has a LOT going for it and I like belt drives more than shafts.  No oiling/maintenance and they last 50K - 100K miles on a big twin Harley.  Some Harley guys swap the ratio and longer/shorter belts are available.  It is more expensive to swap ratios but it up to the owner and not really needed. The biggest downside is that the belt cannot be split so that means removing the swingarm on a softail to replace it.  If it should snap in the middle of BFE it is tow time.  When you start tossing tradition for *less maintenance/quieter/no racing considerations* a drive belt would be a good candidate.  I hope Ducati keeps the chain.

The chain would be appropriate to retain on the superbikes, but a belt would make sense on the models that are not raced.  Likewise (to make a brief return to the OT), if they wanted to keep the dry clutch and/or SSSA on racebikes, those will stay on superbike models, but may or may not on other models.  Even in racing, both the dry clutch and the SSSA are useful mainly in endurance racing.  I like the SSSA, but admittedly it's mainly about the looks of it.  I also like the dry clutch on my bike, partly for the difference and for the festive sound, but it has also made it easier to inspect and maintain the clutch over the life of my bike.

The main thing is that I do not feel tied to (and think that Ducati should not feel tied to) any particular technology or design.  They should make the most up-to-date and effective bikes they can, and not feel constrained by "tradition".

PhilB

Not sure how I feel about belts on a duc but I can really never see them doing it simply because ducati expects to gear it high to pass EPA regs.  And then basically expect owners to gear it down to compensate afterwards.  If duc's ran belts... that would be pretty punishing on the new owner.

Also... I feel that they would keep chains simply because of the "racing is in our dna" mentality duc has.  Sure, dry clutch, trellis frames have been outgrown but chains can be kept as they do provide a definite benefit over belts when it comes to the track.

On my previous roadstar I logged 74,000 miles on the same belt.  A friend of mine, with the same bike clocked over 100,000 miles.  My HD has over 15,000 so far and no change expected for a long time.........that should settle this dispute.  :o

Dood...

We're dealing with engineers ;D

I know and it's fun reading.  ;D

Personally I dont mind the maintenance associated with a chain. I dont mind any of the maintenance required for my bike I find it relaxing. If I wanted a maintenance free bike I wouldn't have chosen a Ducati. A chain requires more maintenance but looks cooler than a belt just like a Ducati requires more maintenance but looks cooler than a Honda.

nailed it for me.

sure, it doesn't take long to lube a chain, but it's still something I have to do every 15-20 days.  Chain/sprocket replacements once a year start adding up, $170/year extra roughly.  consider a belt lasts 50k+, any swap to different pullies would pay off pretty quickly.

More money for gas and tires, less time lubing/replacing chains/sprockets.

win/win for me.  I love my monster but when the time comes for a new bike, my priorities will be different.

Yeppers,I'm in this camp.

Looks like the "Are Dry Clutches Becoming Extinct?" thread is extinct.

30,000 mile intervals on a BMW F800ST and most don't make it. Rear drive sprockets are wonky too. $$$  [thumbsdown]

Ducatis have about as much in common with a Hawg as a 360 Modena does with with a Ford F-150.  :P

But chains look cool!

Dry clutches look cooler.

Bevel towers are the coolest.

and maybe even cooler with the transparent covers.
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6169/6165970434_687631826c.jpg (http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6169/6165970434_687631826c.jpg)

Gear Gazers

wait you did say BMW (break my wallet).   ;)