Ducati Monster Forum

Ok, these are from a recent track day at Summit Point in WV - photos by 'KnockOut Photos'
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.195084100619550.39786.188693157925311&type=3 (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.195084100619550.39786.188693157925311&type=3)
- Don't know the photog, but they did manage to collect up some good shots that show good and bad.



First - good
(https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/288285_195085903952703_1808082044_o.jpg)
Here we see:
- Body inside the centerline.
- Bent/flexed arms.
- Looking through the turn
- Screw-driver hands

Result - even in a tight course with a good bit of speed this fellow has plenty of lean (and traction) left for more speed or dealing with changes in direction, braking, or acceleration.

Now- the bad
(https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/338727_195085933952700_1273673427_o.jpg)
Here we see:
- Body crossed up. Knee down, but shoulders are outside of the bike
- Straight arms

Result - Speeds and line look similar to the fellow in the orange helmet, but this fellow has his bike leaned a lot more. He's reduced his available traction and ability to make changes or accelerate out.

For humility - here's me
(https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/473825_195085397286087_1865484700_o.jpg)

What we see.
- Lower speeds not requiring as much lean
- Bit further back on the bike that ideal
- arms (elbows) a bit low
- Bike has Plenty of potential for more speed in this curve... rider, we'll see.

I'll contribute, and use myself as an example. Trackday photos are a great way to assess your riding, and make changes.  [thumbsup]

Anyone else can chime in on what they see as well...like I said, photos are a great way to learn!

This is a photo of me during a race last season, on my old 748:

(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n258/JJGeo/_dsc2061small.jpg)

Knee firmly on the ground, but I'm still pretty much over the centerline of the bike, which means I'm running out of lean angle prematurely. Not good. Also, my outer arm, while bent, is stiff and not relaxed. Again, not good, as this arm is inadvertently fighting my inside arm which is providing the steering input.

This is a photo of me during a race a couple weeks ago, on a buddie's R6 (my 749 was/is in the shop).

(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n258/JJGeo/T23small.jpg)

Still far from perfect, but much better. My body is a lot further off of the inside of the bike, and my outside arm is relaxed and resting on the tank, so not interfering with steering inputs. Also, the ball of my foot is on the peg, so despite a pretty good lean angle, I'm not close to dragging my toes. Still plenty of lean angle left. The bad (still  :-\) is I'm a tad crossed up...but not terribly.

While I'm busy trying to get a knee down I usually get passed on the outside by a marshall  riding a SuperMoto in that style.

I hate those guys  ;D

harder to tell from the photo angle, but your head looks to the inside


I can say without lying that I passed an 1198 (couple times), mid 2000s R1 and a few other bikes pumping out way more than my whopping 56 hp. I'd have probably been able to lap that R1 if passing in the turns was allowed (B sessions with no passing in turns). R1 guy would park it in any turn, the course has lots of turns then blast off. I may have made a chicane 'a straight' to pass him... I don't think I touched the dirt  ;D

Dunno if I'll get folks on the outside with that bike ever. But on the brakes, cutting bumpers, or possibly on the inside (we'll see about that  [roll])

Great thread!

Now... I have request from you guys... rate my form?  And please excuse the ghetto way I took these pics... i wanted them to have an idea of my form but didnt think they looked good enough for me to buy for the desktop... though I'm still thinking about buying one of the first two ;)

This is from my 2nd trackday ever at the DESMO trackday we recently had at NJMP and I'm on my SFS.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8283/7521565876_a8bf714dff.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/11749976@N05/7521565876/)
photo 4 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/11749976@N05/7521565876/#) by thought_8 (http://www.flickr.com/people/11749976@N05/), on Flickr

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7257/7521568070_f02710371a.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/11749976@N05/7521568070/)
photo 5 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/11749976@N05/7521568070/#) by thought_8 (http://www.flickr.com/people/11749976@N05/), on Flickr

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7252/7521566988_0a9ab8b62c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/11749976@N05/7521566988/)
photo 42 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/11749976@N05/7521566988/#) by thought_8 (http://www.flickr.com/people/11749976@N05/), on Flickr

From what I can see:

The good:
-Off the center line of my bike
-Looking through the turn
-On my toes on the pegs so I'm not going to scrape a boot before anything else

The bad:
-Need to get lower on the bars... or is this about the normal posture you get when riding with bars vs clip ons?

And here is a pic of what I'd think is pretty solid form... sadly from the girl in front of me not me. haha

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8434/7521653776_c95909176b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/11749976@N05/7521653776/)
photo 22 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/11749976@N05/7521653776/#) by thought_8 (http://www.flickr.com/people/11749976@N05/), on Flickr

So my question is... I know I can get better but is this normal for a non clip on set up?  I know I'm supposed to lay my arm across the tank but I cant really see how I can do that without getting sbk ergos.

^^ on a SF you already have enough weight on the front, so I don't think you need to get lower.
Whether moving/hanging your lower body inside is required.... maybe not yet. Inside shoulder and head could point further to the exit (if you need to move around at all)

Not sure what you mean here... are you saying that I should be hanging off more or not be hanging off at all?  I've already gotten my knees down, should I be pushing to be off the bike further?

And my issue is that I have a hard time looking/turning my body further than that when that upright... I'm wondering if that having bars vs clip ons and the posture changes entailed would change that issue by getting my body lower so I can pivot it easier.  As in, is this just an issue I'm going to have while riding a bike with bars vs clip ons.

Offhand, this is turn 7 at NJMP Thunderbolt:

(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll250/dmmcd_80/Bike/NJMPTrackMap.jpg)

and here is actually 8 min of that session. The gopro battery died halfway through right when I was about to make it through all the traffic :\  I was in group 2 (no inside passing, outside passing allowed), and DTC was on 4 so it's flaring quite a bit... didnt want drop it any further till I had more track time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtyQGYpAiu0&feature=relmfu

Thought: I'm saying that on a SF the weight bias is already forward to a degree where leaning forward might bring too much weight on the front. If that is the case - clip ons will not make any sense (other than perhaps offering a "better" wrist angle). Another point is that clip ons are difficult to fit on a SF, aren't they?

Hanging off, bringing the knee down, seems to be a holy goal for a majority of riders - many of which are not even going fast enough to need any weight redistribution. I'm not saying this to you in particular - it's just a general observation. Hanging off can be difficult to do without upsetting the bike and it often disturbs riders so they can't enter and exit turns smoothly in high speeds.

If for nothing other than an alternative exercise, I suggest moving your upper body only - leading with your exit-focused eyes - leading shoulder low.

Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong.

Yes, great thread! I'm learning a lot by reading through all the responses. Here's me from a recent cornering clinic:

(https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/532323_3723128631641_1777918990_n.jpg)

My inside foot position doesn't seem right and I should be looking through the turn more. Chin up a little more. And I should fix my clutch lever. See anything else?

Looking through the corner depends on the corner and where in it you are, so maybe...

BTW: what is that ~box directly under your hand/brake lever?


Else... from my view it looks nice - using your upper body to lead and point [thumbsup]

Looks like a box in the pic, but it's an air scoop.

Not true. Streetfighters are too light in the front end to make great track bikes...this coming from a Ducati rep. who has raced, and has one as a trackbike (used to be a streetbike until he crashed it at the track). Front end wash-outs are common. Anything to get weight on the front of them is good.

Thought: Yes, you should work on getting lower like you were thinking. Bars do make it a bit tougher though.

Looks like the foot could be back a couple inches - ball of the foot on the peg point. Looks like you've got the instep on it.


Yeah hard to tell without a bit more sense of the curve and where you are in it. Could be looking right at the exit for all we know  ;)

Well, the weight bias IS more forward than older Monsters and SBKs (rider/seat position).
I'm not saying they are great track bikes, but that would have to be because of something else like suspension, geometry, ergonomics, bars.... I don't know.

They're raked out compared to a SBK, so they need even more weight on the front to make them stick.

Looks pretty good. Besides getting the ball of your foot on the peg I'd also suggest tucking your foot up against the bike more. I tuck my foot in against the bike so it won't drag.

As you lean more keep focused on getting you're upper body off more. Eventually your outside arm should be laying on the tank. You're doing well so far though.

I'm aware of riders commenting on the SF's confidence/cornering/..... issues.
The numbers tell a different story, so I still wonder why - is it just not suited for fast stable cornering? Is the suspension/chassis making it impossible? Lack of harmony between fork geometry, wheelbase, weight distribution? Seat height?

Rake / trail / tank size / wheelbase - all numbers point to the "fact" that a SF should have enough weight up front compared to a SBK...
The + 1.1 degree SF rake is minor and more than compensated by the 25mm shorter tank and the 35mm longer swingarm when measuring/determining weight bias.

I really don't know, but I wonder if the SF might in fact be so forward weighted that it becomes difficult to control when the going gets tough - requiring a much different suspension set up (like Ducati tried to on the SF848)

I'm not sure exactly why, just that the front has to be weighted more when pushing. I know 2 guys that have lost the front with them, and both were surprised it happened. The more experienced of the two still tracks it, but makes it a point to sit far forward on it.

OK! Got some more evidence from some faster laps

Rolling into the first portion of a possible tiple (if done right double) apex turn 180+ degree turn at Shenandoah of summit point.

(http://yuu.smugmug.com/photos/i-6zcVZC7/0/O/i-6zcVZC7.jpg)
- Lower body good, not great. I am coming of jamming into the pegs to keep the rear tidy. The tip in point is just past a rise and the rear would dance a bit
- Good to better look
- Getting a bit more shovel on the arms, good
- Tad crossed at the shoulder. Not awful, but room for improvement.

Your thoughts?

Can't really see what kind of corner that is, but the hips are pointing in and the shoulders out. Maybe that's just how it's going to be at that part of the corner - maybe there is room for improvement...

Heres a link to the course map
http://www.summitpoint-raceway.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=30&Itemid=22 (http://www.summitpoint-raceway.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=30&Itemid=22)

It's the one marked Old Ram - running counter clockwise making it a right. Tip in is after a short fast straight as you still have speed carried around the 180 at the end of he straight. It rises 6-8 feet at the end of the straight, levels  for a little bit and then decends about 20 starting as soon as the right begins with the lowest point being just at the apex of the 2nd right. Fun but a touch tricky

if you want to see it in action - Skip to 9:15, that's the tail end of the straight. The forum won't take time the stamp youTube URLs
Summit - 8-19 With Jim (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwyeY1DVNrA&t=9m14s#)

Late to this party...

This is a couple of years ago...T2 at NHMS...that's the GP Tech I wore 3 times.

(http://www.owenssportsphotos.com/Photos/RacingPhotos/20100807a062l.jpg)

This is the next day in a borrowed helmet in T9.

(http://www.owenssportsphotos.com/Photos/RacingPhotos/20100807a047l.jpg)

Not horrible for an old guy.  

We can only strive to improve. ;D

edit...

that said...fire away with any comments.

Honestly speaking: first pic looks like you're searching for the ground with your knee. Your arms are pretty straight and your upper body is centered over the tank too much. Second pic looks way better! you're more evenly hanging your body off and it looks like your grip is reduced a bit, arms more bent, etc.

But looking at these photos as reference, you can still go further. You're still a little crossed up. Hold the grips like a screwdriver and drop both your shoulder and your elbow towards the apex of the turn. This would be the more "modern" riding style, where you're trying to keep the bike as upright as possible to get max grip and drive through and out of the corner.

Having said all that, you go and watch Mick Doohan or Kevin Schwantz and they're all sorts of crossed-up with tons of bike lean and not much upper-body movement at all. And they are quite obviously much more accomplished riders than any of us (well, me at least).

Here's me:


Last month at Turn 4 Big Willow. This is a weird double apex top-of-the-hill turn that sets you up for a downhill braking zone into Turn 5. Stock suspension on the R6, front end chatter and "buzzing", I was pushing pretty hard and I wasn't confident to relax my grip like I needed to. The result is my elbow sucking in close to my torso and not giving me any leverage to stand the bike up out of the corners.

(http://media.ziptied.com/members/files/128/July-14-2012-Motoyard-Afternoon%20A-B%20Group%20at%205pm%20BR__1924_B.jpg)

- Grip too tight on bars
- Elbow close to body
- Upper body not over enough, really only my head/shoulders are




This past weekend, Turn 6 at Big Willow after Ohlins NIX30 carts and TTX rear shock. It's up over a crest with a wheelie going down the hill. You come out of the Turn 5 left-hander ON the ground in 3rd and you short shift into 4th as you transition back right and just pin it full throttle over this hill trying to cut it as close to the apex as possible to straight-line down the hill (mind the headshake), straight through 7 (click into 5 before this) and then into 8 with some mega speed. So yeah, you have to hang off quite a bit so that you don't go blasting off course at the top of 4th top of a hill.

(http://media.ziptied.com/members/files/128/Sep-03-2012-Motoyard%20Group%20B%201225pm%20CLI_8847%20B.jpg)
(http://media.ziptied.com/members/files/128/Sep-03-2012-Motoyard%20Group%20B%201225pm%20CLI_9103%20B.jpg)
- More relaxed "screwdriver" grip on the bars
- Elbow dropped lower to ground/apex
- Knee not as far out "searching" for location (because my upper body is much more aware and I had a LOT more confidence in the bike).



As you can see, I was riding with much more confidence in the bike at this pace in the second pics. And I was going faster without "pushing" harder (always the best!). Even though these corners are totally different the principle is the same. And I'm always trying to improve more, by no means is this perfect.

My riding style is this: hang off the bike a lot! Move as much of your body as you can inside "the triangle" between ground and bike centerline at lean. Relax your grip, drop your elbow, then lastly extend your shoulder as far away from the bike as you can so you can start rolling it upright for drive while your BP holds it in the turn as long as you need. Then follow the bike up and get into your tuck.

I'm always critiquing my pics so I can improve the next time out. Stuff like "don't search with your knee so much - you lose focus - just lean the bike harder, faster and let the ground come to you. Then start rolling the bike upright and getting maximum drive out."

The left arm thing is a pretty common issue with people that ride at Loudon.

It's a l/h track and we tend to do just what's necessary.

I've improved a bit since those pics were taken...not sure about body position as I can't find a decent pic, but I got tons faster.

Not as fast as Doohan...maybe Schwantz. [laugh]

Thanks for the input.

How fast was the speed when those pictures taken? And, do you guys also ride at that speed and lean like that when riding on twisty road /public road outside a track?

I'm curious, cause I've never had a track day ... and the only times I can lean my bike is on twisty road or on any corner which is on public road, but never at high speed, only between 50kph or 60 kph to 80 kph.

As you might expect - the speeds in most of those photos is higher than what your mention, but the turn shown in my photo is probably 50-60 k at the first tip in and building up from there. The long(est) straight before that is approaching or just beyond 160 to 170 kph on my bike, which is slow for things like that.

The course I run has a lot of turns so the speeds, save for the long straight don't get too high.

Regarding leaning the bike... this isn't so much a discussion of lean on the bike, but our position on the bike and how it effects the lean and control of the bike. Do you have a riding buddy or two? If so anyone got a camera they can mount to a bike and follow you? Video or even a series of stills won't lie and can tell one much about what you're doing one the bike vs what your *think* you're doing.

The 2 photos of me are at roughly 80-90 mph/128-145 kph. I don't have a speedo, and if you've never ridden a 996 you can't tell what gear you're in. It just goes.

I don't ride like that on the road.

It's hard to tell but it sort of looks like you're trying to keep your head parallel to the ground/horizon line in these pics. Past few rider coaches I had made a point of saying that that shouldnt happen... but then again it could just be because of where the apex/exit is on those turns.

Parallel to the ground or perpendicular?

I'll take note next time I'm out and see if I catch myself doing it, but I think it's the angle of the pics... I dunno. I'll find out next time I ride.

Thanks guys, this thread has been very educational for a noob to riding.
I need to go and get some photos of myself now - lucky there are plenty of red light and speed cameras.  ;D

The lens doesn't lie. If you've got a riding buddy with a video set up, that can be even better. Stills are good, video is much better. You can them watch all points of your turn. There's more to doing a turn well than just body position. Lots happens in a short amount of time. For example, coming off the 'big' straight where I run my KTM it's

GAS GAS GAS>Roll off>Rise up and Get neutral>BRAKES!>Bang down 3 gears while on the brakes>Tuck in left foot and turn out hips look for my exit>Tip in>gas Gas GAS. And that's all 2-3 seconds... and I'm not that fast.

Video can help you look at all the segments of a turn

Just a suggestion.  :)

Getting your body ready should be one of the 1st things done, as it'll slow everything down (mentally) at corner entry. Doing it right before you tip in is a recipe for disaster when you overcook a corner. You can brake and downshift with your body (mainly butt/hips) off to the inside of the corner.

There really isn't a need to ever be in a neutral position, unless it's a long straight.

So we're on the same page what do you think of when talking about neutral position.

I think he means ass in the middle.

He's right...moving your butt just prior to tip in can unsettle the suspension and cause all kinds of issues

I'm referring to front back weight distro. Not being too over the front of the bike thus causing added compression to the forks and potentially robbing yourself of traction you want for others stuff.

I mean neutral like Cornerspeed / cornerspin

We're talking about when you move your butt to the side.

Your last minute technique can cause issues by upsetting the bike.

Yep

Body position (front-rear & side to side) should be done very early (your post has "turn out hips" right before "tip in"). Unless it's a long straight, there really isn't a reason to ever be in the center of the bike, as you should set up for the next corner when you exit the previous one. Basically, keep movements as efficient as possible, and move as few of times as possible. This gives your brain less to think about, and also keeps you from getting so tired.

I'm not sure what you mean by "neutral like Cornerspeed / cornerspin"

From last weekend, at WSIR Streets with the R6.

(http://media.ziptied.com/members/files/128/Sep-29-2012-TrackXperience%20Level%203%201140AM%20FAB_8498_B.jpg)

Not there yet... but getting better.

Change for the better:
- All upper body on the inside
- Both arms in a bit more screwdriver position
(http://yuu.smugmug.com/photos/i-z5cV6MP/0/O/i-z5cV6MP.jpg)

On tap for next time
- More upper body commitment - chin more towards hand
- Getting both arms into more screwdriver positions
- Don't be lazy about getting toes back... touched a toe a couple times....

Here's my latest from a few weeks ago. I'm pretty happy with my body position, and my outside arm is relaxed and laying on the tank. My upper body could still be off a bit more though. Getting there though.  :)

This is also my friend's $20K RSV4 (sweeeeet bike  [drool]), so I wasn't pushing it too hard. Increasing speed makes upper body position a little easier for me.

(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n258/JJGeo/SmallVersion.jpg)

Now video

Quite clearly illustrates by his arm, how to push a bike down... all the way to the pavement.
2011 Harley Davidson Lowside Motorcycle Crash (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYxU_lYBHpY#)

Inside arm straight, outside quite flexed shows he's counter-leaning a good bit. Result the bike has to lean more to make the turn at the speed he's got and ker-ash. Lucky mofo just pops off w/o an apparent scratch.

Everyone is a far better rider than I'm, it is good to see the different forms. I know when we are all riding we think it is all good, until we see a picture. I remember from my motocross days, hahaha, jumping etc. Keep them coming :)

No good illustrative photos this time from the last track day of the season.  But made sure to keep toes on pegs and out of they way this time. Got a good tip from a control rider regarding hip position/rotation.

Now running a pace to pass up a few folks in the intermediate group on the ole thumper

Spent the day tuning my suspension with Dave Moss and I worked on different BP.

Top is my "normal" which is pretty open into the corner.

(http://media.ziptied.com/members/files/128/VP2_2482%20copy.jpg)


And bottom is what I ended up doing for most of the day. Lower and more tucked, moved a lot more forward on the bike (crotch basically on tank). Gives better feel for the front end and lets the rear rotate and wiggle about without your body also doing that.

(http://media.ziptied.com/members/files/128/VP2_2555%20copy.jpg)

Lucky you. I'd like to spend and afternoon chatting with him

No kidding. He's so awesome.

Looking good.  [thumbsup]

I'm jealous you can ride in nice sunny weather this time of year!

BUTTONWILLOW!!!   I make the beast with two backsing love that place.  I would think that riding "open into the corner" is how you should be riding while trying to sort out a track's character (morning session) and probably carries over to the streets as well;  it's less committed and allows easier mid-corner line changes.  Once you've got the track figured out and a time to chop down, raise your level of commitment and go banzai (bottom).  Looks like natural progression to me.  [thumbsup]

You gonna post up any footage?  Here's an ass-cam from last year on an S2R800 before they repaved Cotton Corners.  You get a few less punches to the scrotum nowadays.

http://vimeo.com/44824399 (http://vimeo.com/44824399)




 

The GoPro was my friend's I think I f*cked up turning it on/off everytime, cuz he hasn't come back to me with any footy. Haha.

I'll bring my own next time.

Newly discovered photo from the endurance race this past September:

(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n258/JJGeo/534413_10151104579948393_755824136_n_zpsdc1ac774.jpg)

My one and only picture someone got of me.  I'm still new to riding a sport tourer (used to be a sportbike rider).  How do I look?  Probably a bad angle to critique.  I'm am off the seat.

(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/426516_4557691380446_1208686644_n.jpg)

Doesn't look too bad shamoo.  [thumbsup] Hard to tell from the picture, but looks like you might be a bit crossed up with your upper body still over the tank judging from your outside arm angle. That's a hard angle to tell though.

That road looks very nice!  ;D

Thank you sir!  This was GMR (Glendora Mountain Road) in California.  My friends recently took me there.  I'm originally from the East Coast, so I don't know much around here yet.

Good observation on my outside arm, I didn't think about that.  Question, what does it mean when you guys talk about "screwdriver hands"? 

Think about how your wrist is angled when you work a screwdriver...bent to the outside of your arm. When you have good body position, your wrist on the inside of the corner should be similar. To get this bend you have to be nice and loose, and not have a death grip on the bar.

Paying attention to the outside arm is helpful to me for getting body position right. It should be loose, and laying on the tank.

All this is easier to do on the track than street though. I'm always too worried about gravel, cops, cagers, etc. on the street to ride hard...hence my butt is almost always pretty close to the middle of the seat on street rides!

Screwdrivers and shovels.

As TripleJ noted, how do you hold a screw driver? Not perpendicular to your forearm, like a bat, but in-line with it so you have the ability to rotate using your forearm, not just the flexion of your wrist. 

The shovels bit is easier to see on someone riding supermoto or flat track, but does translate to sport bikes as well. how do you shovel or work a hay fork? One arm out stright-ish the other, bent with the elbow up like so:

(http://loadpaper.com/large/Ktm_wallpapers_260.jpg)

Got it.  Thanks guys.  Much clearer now.  For some reason, I had good form on my R6, but on the Monster I'm still nervous.  I think I have a combination of death grip and non-screwdriver hands right now.  :P

Triple J: looking good man! Hope the weather turns for you soon so you can get back on the track.

Here was my last day at Chuckwalla about 2 weeks ago. I worked on handle bar position and it was my first day with warmers so I was loving the ability to push straight away and not spend 2+ laps warming up tires! Haha. I also installed my RCS19 master cylinder and shwoooo. Love it.


(http://media.ziptied.com/members/files/128/Apr-14-2013-SoCal_Trackdays%20Bowl%20-%20Nic%20RG__7658.JPG)

(http://media.ziptied.com/members/files/128/Apr-14-2013-SoCal_Trackdays%20Turn%2015%20-%20Nic%20NIC_0382.JPG)

(http://media.ziptied.com/members/files/128/Apr-14-2013-SoCal_Trackdays%20Turn%2015%20-%20Nic%20NIC_0424.JPG)

My second track day ever with the biggest changes to the bike since the first being stickier tires and adjustable rear sets.  Definitely enjoyed the added grip from the tires and foot pegs!

I focused on resting my outside arm on the tank, which I was not doing previously.  From the pics, I see that I could get my ass off the seat more as well.

Critique away!...

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8546/8671335716_3554ebeda4_c.jpg)

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8117/8670234651_34db16fe4c_c.jpg)

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8531/8670230133_667a774b15_c.jpg)

I'd say one change you could work at is getting that inside arm more like so:

(http://media.ziptied.com/members/files/128/Apr-14-2013-SoCal_Trackdays%20Turn%2015%20-%20Nic%20NIC_0382.JPG)

- see how it's out and he's able to operate the throttle by rotating the forearm vs flexing the wrist?

And looks like you could bring yoru whole body a bit more to the inside of center.

$Lindz$?

Aha, gotcha.  Definitely something to work on during my next outing. 

Yeah definitely loosen your grip on the bars, push your elbows out so that your main grip on the inside bar is thumb, fore and middle fingers. If that makes sense. That's what the "screwdriver" grip we were talking about is. Right now, gripping the bars fully is holding your elbow in which is limiting how far over the tank and how far off the centerline that your body is able to be.

Glad to see dudes out on the track though! When are you going to cave and get a sportbike? Haha.

I was having a hard time understanding the "screwdriver" grip, but it's clicked in my brain now.


Chasing down the sportbikes--especially the dude on the Panigale--in the turns was certainly gratifying on my little scoot.  But I was definitely wanting more on the straightaways.  It did force me to explore braking later and accelerating sooner than the pack in order to get around them though.

Just thought I would throw a picture from my last track day in here. I always enjoy some constructive criticism to better myself. (http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g374/omfg_nick/321AED30-01A2-4E5C-B829-236B5406EAF3-3224-000004BB67A79841_zpsd69dd333.jpg)

nickshelby, STOP SITTING ON THE BIKE! Pretend the seat is made out of hot coals that will burn your ass! Haha. Get off it, and get your upper body low. And weight your inside peg when you want lean angle and then stomp on the outside one driving out of the corner to help stand the bike up.

Really, just bring that upper body over and down more will help. You're not crossed up at all. In reality, you have perfect "early 2000s" BP. What tires are you running? Nowadays it's most effective to use a little less lean on the tire and compensate with more dramatic BP to keep the bike turning.

What's the gear or approx. speed for that corner? That's also something to consider. Not every corner should be the same BP. All of what I just said could be worthless for that particular corner, hah!

Last track day, T4 at Big Willow. Pushing real hard.

(http://media.ziptied.com/members/files/128/May-27-2013-Motoyard%20Group%20A%203pm%20FAB_7694_B.jpg)

I was always under the impression that you simply want to stay ON the seat, just slid over and hanging off and bringing your upper body over and down to adjust your center of gravity through the turn. Whenever I hear of others using the "off the seat" technique, I have never really felt like opening a can of worms by asking why?

It seems to me that by being off the seat, you have changed the amount of weight the shock is holding up by altering how that weight is spread out through the bike, leading to issues with the shock behaving as it is sprung for a much heavier rider also changing where the shock is preloaded at...

This was the first time I rode the smaller track at MSRC. If I remember correctly it was turn 3 but I don't know off hand what gear I was In and certainly don't know how fast being I was more concerned with learning this particular track. And not to sound like I was making excuses I was also running by-003s which I had not run before.

Unless you've fallen off the bike, it is still carrying your mass. The spring does not change - you do effect the combined center of gravity when you move around on the bike and this can cause the rear to lift or settle, compress the front more when on the brakes, stand the bike up more, or force more lean into the bike depending on what you're doing. But the dynamics of the suspension don't change - not the spring rate, not the preload. You may reduce or eliminate sag if you're so far forward all the weight of you and the bike has transitioned to the front wheel - but again, that's not a change in spring rate or preload.

By being off the seat, you do change that combined center of gravity. Done properly you're allowing the bike to be more upright given a fixed speed and turn radius. Allowing the bike to be more upright allows the suspension to function more efficiently as it only tracks in the z-axis. there's also impacts on contact patch size - but I don't want to go on too long.

Back to photos.

From the first track outing this year. After getting past some stiffness and being rusty things are looking better. Toes need to come back a bit more for sure and a few more inches over the seat are still there too, but overall, step by step getting better.

Wasn't captured, but by late on I was getting a bit more off the saddle and low with the upper body. Manage to bonk the inside of my chin bar on the hand guard a couple times.

Picked up a gear in pace for most of the track and hugging tighter lines without much challenge, even with the upped pace. More room for better, but felt good to make gains despite my lack of saddle time this year.

Comments?

(http://yuu.smugmug.com/photos/i-NPGW5bB/0/XL/i-NPGW5bB-XL.jpg)

My great instructor talked about head angle on the track vs street.
He wasn't preaching black or white, but discussing how the relatively few reference points on the track could allow a tilted head - not level as we need to on the street.
The positive result is that the body is easier to get into that point-and-shoot position.

this is me on my M620 today... what to improve?

(http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/998910_348688285259629_422466090_n.jpg)

photo taken with phone...

Super hard to say from that angle. Id say watch your line on the street - hugging the inside of a left in a curvy area can get one a truck mirror to the face.

As far as body - take a look at Lindz arm and hands ... Mine too, but a lesser degree. Bringing your elbows up allows you to move a bit better, but more importantly it allows for finer contol inputs especially at the throttle. 'Screwdriver hands'

Hard to say, but looks like you're crossing up. You've moved over in the saddle but it appears your head is back towards center which negates a lot of the effect of moving you hips over.

It's a challenge and a learned skill. I'm definetly still working at

Definitely the track is the place to be for practising these skills!! [Dolph]

Well, practicing good riding skills should be done all over. Yes, pushing your limits is wiser at the track, but good body position is good body position, regardless of where you are.

I know the photo is not good, but i was a photographer that day, so i took photos of all the guys, but photo of me was taken just by one of them :D thanks for the comment... I was trying to get my elbows down... I was looking over sidemirror, so I guess I was not crossed up... this part of road is closed for cars in that part of a day, when we are riding... so there is no danger of trucks... and what abou legs?? i am confused if it is normal to have that HOLE between leg and bike... thanks

Elbows down? No - elbows up! If you elbows are down - really - close in to your body is a better description, then you are forced to operate the throttle by flexing your wrist. If you have them up, away from your body, then you can operate the throttle with a twisting motion of your forearm much like you hold and turn a screw driver when you're woking on something delicate. You don't want to turn the driver too hard right? So you don't gorilla grip it like a baseball bat , instead it's laid across your palm with the tip end of the handle exiting by your index finger, and the thumb laid down the length of the handle with the tip pointed towards the tip of your imagined screw driver.

As far as that gap at your outside leg - there's no need for it, but it's probably not hurting much either. Might be taking a bit more energy to achieve - vs being more relaxed and just rested on the tank/frame. If you were further off the saddle that gap would close up. But if you look at most photos, there's some gap there - especially on narrow bikes like Ducs

To clarify...the inside elbow should be out...the outside elbow should be "down", resting on the tank.

I've found that this is inherent to trying to hang off of a monster due to the shape of the tank.  There are no aggressive angles to lock into so I often find myself leveraging off off the outside peg to find some grip between my inside thigh and the back of the tank.  I've actually devised my own trac-pad system since most available products are utterly useless.  Probably why CA Cycleworks is developing a track tank...  One of these days I'll posta pictorial of how I set up my monster for the track.

thanks guys a lot... I´ll try tomorrow... and maybe during next weekend there will be another photographer :D

Here's an example of good great form. It's arguable if you really need to get this far off the bike, and he usually doesn't during a race (this is a trackday photo), but I'm not arguing either way. This is Andy DiBrino, who is a local OMRRA & WMRRA racer, and is only 17 years old. He also does an AFM round here and there, and is starting to do AMA rounds. I can confirm that he is F-A-S-T!! Wouldn't be surprised to start hearing his name nationally next year, as he's too good and too young to only club race.

Cool picture, so figured it would be a nice addition to this thread.

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/21352_398477836938374_1787091773_n.jpg)

so I tried to improve... here is photo from todays ride...

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/--UXPDg84-YA/UccJTD6gDWI/AAAAAAAAAcM/MeP9aQD79CQ/w866-h577-no/IMG_0080.JPG)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-hNDj4QEIY_g/UccJ22ss9kI/AAAAAAAAAeE/MuJ6u-w-AAY/w866-h577-no/IMG_0095.JPG)

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-69wPndQm3wY/Ucch0uu9R_I/AAAAAAAABKA/8e4Q9ZGoPu8/w826-h572-no/photo.jpg)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-9CMGJMTp0ig/UccKevfL1JI/AAAAAAAAAfI/4dbkFX0bBvI/w866-h577-no/IMG_0092-MOTION.gif)



And if you guys don´t mind checking my album from today and comment also others... 5 guys riding.. thanks..

PS: my girlfriend was taking photos and he started too late after apex..

Need to fix your images. You linked to a post, not the image itself

But I managed to find the gallery. The photos of you, not very telling. There's just it much going on - but in a way that's good. Ill look more closely when I'm not on an iPad

Now your buddies.
Guy on the Honda is a low side waiting to happen. He's dragging knee, with his body crossed up forcing the bike to lean more. When I get back to a real computer not this iPad ill draw on a couple of his photos to illustrate. But basically it lookalike he's hunting to geta knee at the cost of proper form and it'll bite him

The guy on the suz need to watch his freaking feet. He's in sneakers  [thumbsdown] with his inside foot almost heal hooking the peg and getting close to touching the pavement. He's going to get a nasty surprise if it touches down in sneakers. Least bad is just a good scare... Worst? Probably knocking it off the peg so hard you run over your own foot then crash.

I'm no professional and probably not even close to good in comparison to everyone posting in this thread but I think you should most certainly work on your lines.

I know you said that road is closed when you guys ride but practicing your lines (entry, apex, and exit), along with body position is key to becoming a "good" rider. There is no threat of oncoming traffic on that road but if picking an inside line that is too inside becomes habitual there could certainly be a chance of getting hit on another road.

thanks guys... I will try to improve... and thank you for those 2 guys too... there were 2 more...  one on a newer GSXR  and one in black on Honda... next time I´ll try to take photos of another curve...

Well, you fixed the images... but now I can't back track to your gallery  :-[ What's that link?

Ok, got down with my computer ninja skills and found 'em

So the lines are a tad arbitraty, since each photo is different. It's my best approximation, so don't sue, pregnant dog or otehrwise grump.  One line is the approximate lean angle of the bike, the other is (roughly) traced from the riders tailbone to/through thier cervical spine.

We could get a better comparison if all the shots were nice head or tail on shots, that would allow us to see the riders shift in the saddle. But, we have what we have.

Let's start with Lindz showing how it's done
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-amIBgi3ioG0/UchCgswTIfI/AAAAAAAAAa4/khVsf1iArIc/w800-h533-no/lindzLean.png)

Then me, showing how the slow do it
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-7p1Rmx3vgM0/UchCgiuve4I/AAAAAAAAAa8/sL47_CJZooE/w1024-h680-no/yuuLean.png)


Now you, and your buddies Mr. Freezer
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-g1YQCTiEkNY/UchCfaR2DUI/AAAAAAAAAeo/JS3n_si7jXE/w779-h538-no/freezeLean.png)

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-z9tfb1E0QfE/UchCfuJ9pvI/AAAAAAAAAaw/Sog71wKY4lw/w1281-h854-no/freezerBuddies1.png)

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Zl-kIBbJa_Q/UchCfzyFBCI/AAAAAAAAAak/aw7l3-kX1RQ/w609-h528-no/freezerBuddyCBR2.png)

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-7Ft_jya7cbw/UchCfrCm07I/AAAAAAAAAac/9bAwnOqwEj8/w909-h604-no/freezerBuddyCBR.png)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-5x8D10GzqZg/UchCgZZdNUI/AAAAAAAAAa0/SebtEpoxhLo/w853-h528-no/freezerToes.png)

wooow... thats amazing... [thumbsup] I´m really thankful for this... really like it... I wonder you´ve done so much work, just to show me this... Thank you again... as I can see on the first image - that guy doesn´t have elbow up...

This *should* be the link to the gallery
https://plus.google.com/115933301955798156400/posts
- Some descriptive notes in there too

Really not that much work for me. I design websites - few lines and circles is quick work.

The guy - Lindz in that first photo does have is elbow significantly away from his body if you look. It's out, almost as far as his knee - there's a big gap between his arm and his body. In reality, it's probably more up than in my photo - but he's on a sport bike and I'm on a SuperMoto - the ergonomics are a lot different so it will make for a different look. For example, he's got his outside arm relaxed and draped across the tank. No matter what, I cannot have the same on my bike as the bars are higher than any other portion of the bike.

Each bike, with it's differing controls and seating will require something a bit different - there's no 100% this is exactly how you should be on EVERY bike. Too much variation of human bodies and bikes. But, I'm trying to show that there are some fundamental items are important.

thanks a lot again... will send more photos maybe on wednesday..

this guy want to know you opinion too...

(http://sphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1016609_582026125170601_678652006_n.jpg)

Is there a larger version of the photos - like the size of the ones on your google+ account? That's too small to make much detail

this photo is from the same album..

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-DlSli_xTSlE/UccMPxWLnII/AAAAAAAAAlM/nZN_UBbGWjk/w866-h577-no/IMG_0165.JPG)

he was riding with those guys who were crossed up..

Ah, found him. ON the newer Suzuki

A little photo shop magic puts him with one of the other fellows

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-hhVQ5-hPErI/UciTlri8zlI/AAAAAAAAAfA/llzZYA4ZRKA/w796-h505-no/freezerBuddies2.png)

obviously just one example, but it's a a fairly clear shot. The fellow on the newer bike (the faux leader in the edited photo) appears a little bit crossed, but much more neutral than the 2nd bike. Of course cameral angle and my interpolation come into play, but one can see that he's carrying less lean angle on the bike, for what I assume is the same, or very similar speeds.

Nice work SP   [thumbsup]

Have photoshop - will travel!

A couple lines makes it much easier to illustrate crossed up vs hanging off. A similar question was put out on a local board, that's where I did it first. Seemed to help there, so  I just kept on  [thumbsup]

I know we're supposed to be looking at photos here, but these reinforce some of the concepts being discussed here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqIYr81zTxU#at=63 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqIYr81zTxU#at=63)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxWBKmfKndI#at=529 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxWBKmfKndI#at=529)

Ain't nothin' wrong with a little multi media.

Damn, Slide Panda killing it with the visual aids! Great job dude. And yeah those photos of the guys on the street are showing that those dudes are trying to "reach for the ground" with their knees instead of leaning the bike over and letting the knee touch naturally.

Here's a direct rear shot of Turn 4 WSIR. You're illustrations are spot on.

(http://media.ziptied.com/members/files/128/May-27-2013-Motoyard%20Group%20A%203pm%20FAB_7766_B.jpg)



Unfortunately my form last race was much more along these lines:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-zdUfz8-vAyk/Tiyl4u3ftSI/AAAAAAAADAg/Pna2-1xEqCY/s1600/jorge-lorenzo-laguna-seca-crash-highside-2011.jpg)

(http://www.motorcyclenews.com/upload/220891/images/lorenzo-china-highside.jpg)


Highsides f***ing SUCK. 2 weeks later and I'm still all swollen and can't move well.

so... I´ve ridden this weekend enough.. I try to improve my bodyposition... here are results..

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ODO5EorI2Zs/UdB41yZbDZI/AAAAAAAABLs/iZG_5EiqAyQ/w866-h577-no/IMG_0356.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-DtqCf046yqY/UdB5ZBFXUVI/AAAAAAAABNk/4vpCA1AtUEw/w866-h577-no/IMG_0512.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-WmFIbl7224E/UdB5IXrye4I/AAAAAAAABMo/7fhJYV7KbAw/w385-h577-no/IMG_0466.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-q5mkcMM6ZDc/UdB5OXzWfcI/AAAAAAAABM8/XP_lwuE6bEY/w385-h577-no/IMG_0468.JPG) guy behind me is the one in sneakers :D this time in motoboots
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-nqeza8aRkXU/UdB5mUrxltI/AAAAAAAABOc/LaKti7hlUVQ/w385-h577-no/IMG_0606.JPG)

and here my GF on my monster..
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-wSTNuiyy8j0/UdB7EVQPecI/AAAAAAAABTs/7IopOQvW9Xc/w866-h577-no/IMG_0830.JPG)

I decided to sell my monster and buy 749 instead...

That's actually a good form right there.

Looking better!
Though, your buddy still needs to get his inside foot up on the pegs - ball of the foot on the peg. Look how close he's coming to touching is toe down in the same turn where you have inches to spare.

he's still a little head shy- but that can be a tough one to get over.

749 eh?

I just do not know what to do... when I´m riding with guys on SS I can´t ride as fast as they... in curves I´m scratching exhaust when trying to catch them... but I love the look of monster... maybe good solution would be bigger monster...

Well there's you question about the ride height in relation to the exhaust. Have you investigated that? Getting some more height in the rear would give you a bit more lean room with the stock exhaust.

But, the stock exhaust on the monster has always been a trouble spot once the lean angles get more aggressive. So the least expensive route would be to see about the rear suspension on your monster, and the (possibly) a high mount exhaust kit.

Buy a super bike is a super bike... That's cost you more and you will loose some flexibility that the Monster has. The 749s ergos are done with sport/track in mind and will be rougher on the body than the more upright position of a monster. And there's the different character of the engine - but what Monster are you on there By the by?

I have checked the sag... rear was 20mm and front 40mm... I was thinking about making som reduction to move muffler more back and nearer to wheel... I will try to sell it and buy S2R or S4R... if not I´ll make that reduction

Just make sure you're not trying to keep pace with riders more experienced than you. You'll get there. I'm no expert, but your form looks really good.

they´re less experiences than me, they ride crossed up, but even so they are faster than I am... and riding on straight roads does not have to be mentioned...

Well, from those photos, your buddies are running a much higher risk of crashing than you are. They look to be pushing to the edges if their skills and it'll bite them soon if they are not careful.

Don't forget that those GSX-Rs and CBRs are pretty well equipped, both in suspension and motor, sport bikes.  Better riding technique will close the margin, but you're 620 is still handicapped against those I-4s.

I feel your pain.  But as the saying goes...it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow.

wooow... If I´ve heard that saying befor, I would never have that pain...   [clap]

Oh yeah it is. My thundering 55hp at a track day earlier this summer. Won't say I don't get a giggle passing up a sport bike with 4x the power of my, well, dirt bike.

Saturday - get back R1, Know your place Gixer 750 on slicks! He did get round, but never got away...
Team Pro Motion track day at the Shenandoah course of Summit Point June 8, 2013 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ZjCfZZaBVJQ#)

Sunday - yellow liter, yellow schmeeter
TPM track day at the Shenandoah course of Summit Point June 9, 2013 with Joe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=VR0d_1KZsWE#)

 [Dolph] so today I´ve ridden big bike... GSXR 1000 K4... I have just this one photo.. it was not my bike, so I was afraid to pull the gas..

(http://sphotos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/1012854_10200578921328101_1783656564_n.jpg)

I know the photo is too small but Slide Panda what do you think??

You guys are all slipping. I can't believe nobody mentioned this.

All that good gear and no gloves?

Seriously. Get her some gloves. If she crashes like that she'll understand the meaning of the word agony. There are a lot of nerves in your hands.

You´re right... but she has very little palms, so it was difficult to buy her gloves... but a week ago it arrived... so now she has all the gear by GPI..

If she's ever in the market again I've found that Rev'it gloves run VERY small and Dianese gloves run a touch small. I cannot even wear a Rev'it XXXL which is a bit silly as my hands are not that big

I also have very small hands and the Rev'It summerweight gloves (XS or XXS, not sure of the sizing) work well for me but the same size in their winter gloves was too big for me. 

This past weekend was my first time out at Buttonwillow Raceway Park.  I'm still struggling a bit with the "screwdriver hand" on right-handers...

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3784/9445975672_27789cc78b_c.jpg)

But I think I was getting better at it as the day progressed.  Harder to see here because the photog was on the outside of the turn...

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3810/9443186497_d08b564906_c.jpg)

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2808/9445970514_79c63db084_c.jpg)

Need to get my head lower still and my upper body in general.

On another note, ground clearance was an issue for me during the day.  Scraped the bottom most portion of the S-pipes on both sides as the rear was compressing too much in the corners.  At one time, it unsettled the bike enough to throw me wide on my corner exit.  :-\

the guy who used to ride wearing sneakers...
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-eqabX3j4tTc/UgfjoYnkqfI/AAAAAAAADtc/m36jvkd3Dk0/w1001-h577-no/pista2.jpg)

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-TcQeR0AcvvM/Ugfj4Rr3ZfI/AAAAAAAADtk/vzV4yT7QIPc/w936-h577-no/pista+koleno.jpg)


and me

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-mGPGPsZ-JMA/Ugfi0Hq0xuI/AAAAAAAADs0/wtA3JSB3XTQ/w905-h577-no/ja+ruka.jpg)

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-csFj5vKBo84/UgfiqLQ62FI/AAAAAAAADss/8x6OmFaTDM0/w912-h577-no/ja.jpg)

we both made the first knee down today.. [Dolph]

Big leaps forward!  [thumbsup]

thank a lot fot your advices..

Form is looking good, and I hate to be the guy that says it, but please take it to the track. At those speeds and lean angles, there is no reserve in case of emergency on the road. This was me a few years ago until I took the same advice. Way more fun and safer at the track where all you have to worry about is picking the best lines and improving your skill, and there are no cars and speeding tickets to worry about. [End safety rant]

We know.. but its kind of difficult and expensive to ride on a track... we have one track in slovakia...

Slovakia!  Screw it ride like you want  [thumbsup]   [evil]   [Dolph]

Need track time

(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s270/pesteaux/IMG_8878_zps268f350c.jpg) (http://s154.photobucket.com/user/pesteaux/media/IMG_8878_zps268f350c.jpg.html)

So I had an "incident" last track day: http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=65506.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=65506.0) and Slide Panda suggested I post photos here. No professional photographer at the track, so this is the best I got (pretty damned good from my wife if you ask me). Anyway, something happened and I lost the rear on one of the turns. I also feel like I'm fighting the bike with my arms while trying to stay on the bike by hanging on to the handlebars in the turns. My arms, shoulders, and pecs are tired after a few sessions (30mins on this day).

Anyway, comments appreciated. The only obvious things I see in the pic are my left foot needs to be angled out more and I need to get more off my butt off of the seat.

If your arms, shoulders, and pecs are that sore, it probably means you need to either work on your core strength (exercises, etc.), or if your core is already strong, use it more. Hold yourself off the bike with your back and abs, and legs, not your arms. This will help with precise steering and wrist movements.

Are the sessions 30 minutes each? Wow, that's long if so. Probably a bit over long potentially.

As you self reported and Chris noted - your arms and chest should not be tired like your doing push-ups or fighting the bike. A tried right fore arm and arm pump... ok that's part of the game. Tires shoulders from working to keep your elbows up and hands light on the bars - ok there too. But tired chest, anterior and medial delts, and upper arms is definetly a sign you need to put more weight into your pegs and grip the bike with you legs more and in turn support your upper torso with your core.

Besides making you tired - being havey on the bars will slow the handling of the bike, rattle you around, and possibly decrease traction if you're getting in the way of the bike sorting itself out.

I was thinking something along those lines. I'm working on strengthening my core and my legs too. Thanks for the advice!

Because there were so few riders, they combined levels 1 and 2 into one group and set up 30min sessions. It was a really loose open track day. The only reason I was there was that my more organized track day, which I attended with very experienced friends, was rained out. My buddies went back the next day but I had to come back the next week at a completely different event. It was just an "open track" day.

More organize - in what fashion?

So, 30 minute sessions are pretty damn long, especially when your pace starting coming up. But this sounds like an exception vs the rule.

And yes, work those legs and that core - Imagine that you'll be mostly hovering on the saddle, with it taking just some of your weight vs. sitting on it, with the bulk of your weight on it.

For arms, one trick I was taught was 'chicken wings' - You should be able to move your arms up and down in a chicken wing sort of motion, while traveling in a straight line, without impacting your control of the bike (throttle or steering) nor your torso position. If you've got your weight going through your arms, you won't be able to 'flap' them

More organized in that there were distinct levels that we signed up for rather than "if you want to ride fast go now, if not wait 30mins", stickers on the bike, corner workers got there on time, etc... :).

In a straight line I grip the tank hard with my knees. I throttle with one hand and juggle with the other and be ok. The problem is in the corners, I can't squeeze with my knees because one knee is hanging off of the side of the bike. Going into a turn, I lean my upper body toward the mirror. I think here I was putting weight on the bars when I do this instead of holding myself up with my core.

Slide : I have been working on keeping my elbows in, when you say up, what are you referring to?  Should I not be.

Reading back here:
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=58317.msg1178555#msg1178555 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=58317.msg1178555#msg1178555)
Might help

One good visual I can think of - watch (most) GP and other high level racers when they are on the brakes, straight up and down, before any tip in. You'll see their elbows are not inline from their shoulders to their hands, but the arm is rotated at the shoulder so the elbow is 'up' and flexed.

An easy thing to try - go to a counter height surface, step right up to it and hold your elbows to your sides and try to put you whole hand, palm down, flat on the surface.
Can be done, but takes some efforts and isn't so comfy - right?

Now relax and do it again.
Where are your elbows in relation to before when you hand them forced to your side?
Really, only one way they can go but...  Ahhh yes... they have moved up and out as you rotated at the shoulder to allow your hands to lay flat more easily

Now, assuming your fingers are roughly parallel from one hand to the other when you put your hands on the counter, find the easiest way to end up with your hands aligned so that an imaginary straight line from the fingers of each hand would intersect and a right angle.
Hmm, flexing the wrist isn't the easy way...
But if I rotate a bit more at the shoulder, and my elbows come up just a bit more - Bam that right angle's formed.

So now take the right hand and close it up like you would on a screw driver handle and give it a twist - icer ans easy huh? Fine control right?
That's your throttle!

So, elbows up!

Alright! First time outside of a demo ride on a real sport bike!

http://leediehrphotography.smugmug.com/Summit-Point-10-28-2013/n-Kpxrg/i-djcF553 (http://leediehrphotography.smugmug.com/Summit-Point-10-28-2013/n-Kpxrg/i-djcF553)
- Can post the image directly, deal

Still getting used to it, but went pretty well for feeling out a new steed

Nice choice of motos!

Ok, got copies of the images.

(https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1380236_10151784087453843_1385441972_n.jpg)

- Little hard to see what's going on in the photo. But self eval
The bad
 - More practice time... only riding a tiny bit this year
 - Still adjusting the new bike and adjusting too it made things a little awkward
 - Hips are tight keeping the leg closer in than I might hope.

The good
 - Did pretty well keeping light hands on the bars at all times. Legs are sore, core's a bit tired ams and shoulders are just ducky!
 - did decently at keeping my torso low and over the grips.

And other thoughts?

Looks pretty good.  [thumbsup]

You're a bit crossed up there, and your outside arm looks a little stiff. Try to work on straightening it some and pushing the bike away from you. That's a hard habit to break though. I give myself the same advice every picture I see of me!  [laugh]

Given that lean angle you should probably still be on the brakes as well...trail braking.

Not 100% sure, but I think that photo is from part way between 1 and 2 on this map

(http://www.summitpoint-raceway.com/images/stories/trackmaps/summit_main.gif)

So being off the brakes is right since the tightest turn (1) in that section is behind you.

Arms... Though will be rough. I've got stupidly long arms for my height. I stand a bit shy of 6'. Middle finger tip to it's opposite with arms parallel to the ground is almost 6'5" - so there's probably always going to be some extra arm...

Makes sense on the corner...always hard to tell from pictures.

Yep, all about context.  Granted i was not pushing the braking hard that day either. But I'm pretty sure that's an 'opening up' section

I'll play along.


LOL


(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd86/scbaran/IMG_6141.jpg)

Minis or are you just a Giant?   Of all of the racing and riding that I've done this year, I'm almost ashamed to admit that my stint on a KX65 produced the biggest grin...  6-hour endurance race coming up in a couple weeks!

KTM65.

I agree, huge grin. ;D

Hmmm, that track looks familiar.....  Apex?
 (http://i39.tinypic.com/538oiq.jpg)

November 23 @ APEX - 6-hour Mini Endurance Race.  The field is a mix of road racers, MXers, sumos, wives, lushes, plumbers, the whole gamut...    Whip a team together or choose to do it Solo Ironman. Either way, come out and do battle with Team Man Chest Hair United!!!    Should have a much bigger turnout.  After 6-hours, the grin should be permanent, though you might not walk right EVER AGAIN.    DO IT.   If you need any details, just drop me a bell.  Jim @ 714.317.6413
(http://i39.tinypic.com/2ekkin8.jpg)

Endurance, hmmm.
Yep, APEX.

Don't mean to spam the site but there's racing this weekend with the STTARS series at Apex.  5-10 lap sprint races.  Practice, heats, and mains all for just $60 bucks and just $20 more to add a class.   If you get a wild hair you should come out.  Peeps will be practicing Saturday and racing Sunday.  Supermotos, minis, just about anything... https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=475103769275338&set=a.263286207123763.59690.245598728892511&type=1&theater (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=475103769275338&set=a.263286207123763.59690.245598728892511&type=1&theater)

More info can be found at http://supertt.com/index.html (http://supertt.com/index.html)

To validate this post and bring it back on topic,  both minis and supermotos are the perfect training tool for understanding motorcycle handling dynamics and grip.  There's a reason why on any given day in Southern California, you might find your self on track rubbing elbows with the likes of Max Biaggi, Josh Hayes, Melissa Perris, etc.   I tried supermoto for the first time last year for poops and giggles, and to get a better understanding of how a tire behaves at the edge of it's grip.  With the roadbike on the big tracks, I was discovering these limits, but the risks and consequences were obviously exponentially higher.  With the weight, travel, and reduced speeds of a supermoto, you are really able to find a level of comfort while riding well past a tires grip potential.  As my friend and pusher told me before my first session on a sumo,  "If/when you crash, that means that you've completely ignored at least 5 different warning signs the bike was trying to give you..."    These bikes telegraph their grip very well and the long travel suspension gives you a very large buffer for recovery once out of shape.  I never truly experienced front tire "push" until on a sumo and now find myself dribbling the front end like a basketball and correcting without giving it a thought.  Braking, trailing, throttle control, weighting, set-up,  I could go on and on but I already feel as if I'm wearing a plaid suit and trying to sell a used car...    Happy Riding!    - Jim.

I'm so jealous you guys can ride supermoto. The track neighbors got ours shut down a couple years ago.  :'( I'd be racing every weekend if it wasn't for those asshats.

so how was the race Jim?

Had a stellar two weekends of fun racing!  In the STTARS supermoto series I took wins in Unlimited and Vet30, managing to seal up a championship.  For the 6-hour mini race there were 22 teams entered and we managed to finish 4th overall and took fast lap honors with a KX65.   My personal highlight was battling the legendary madman Don Canet of Cycle World who was mounted on a modified 100 4-stroke.  Our differing powerplants would allowed me to pull him on the back straight but every lap he would divebomb me on the brakes into treacherous turn-2.  Splitting lappers through the infield was like a cage match until he finally flew off course attempting "The Impossible" pass.   I still crack up every time I think about it, and I'm sure that everyone involved came away with similar stories of valor! Drop me a bell sometime or PM me if you've got any interest.  There are two independent series that are starting in December and January so the opportunity is always there.  Or for sumo look up Socal Supermoto where for $199 you can dip a toe in and have photographic proof! 

Here are a few Monster pics to contribute to the thread...
(http://i42.tinypic.com/1znbcyv.jpg)

(http://i39.tinypic.com/29gg1mo.jpg)

(http://i43.tinypic.com/2w2kktu.jpg)

(http://i39.tinypic.com/vo0juf.jpg) [thumbsup]

Awesome shot. [thumbsup]

Great shot

Coming into a decreasing radius uphill right hander with some really shitty pavement.


(http://www.stephaniehilzphotography.com/img/s9/v91/p877284037-4.jpg)


Need to get my head further to the right, but maybe I did when I dropped into the corner.

 That looks like an awesome time and couldn't imagine any type of criticism.  Outside thigh is firmly anchored into the bike, allowing the rest of the body to move about as required without upsetting the bars.  It's been at least 2 years since I've been on the street but I'd imagine that dropping the head lower or farther to the right would actually LIMIT your options should a mid-corner correction be necessary.   I feel that the greatest form is the one that puts a smile on your face that sticks out of your helmet and then gets you home to share the experience with the people that understand.  I sometimes wonder how much the pursuit of vanity gets in the way of bike control and feel.  Lord knows that I've been through it myself, but wanting to look like Marquez on your local back roads is thankfully a club that I dropped out of...  Fast, loose, and confident,  are styles that I enjoy seeing on track but due to the simple dynamics of physics, wanting to emulate your idols at public highway speeds will often work against you.  I feel that speed, lean angle, and body position, are all bound together and require a perfect fluxing balance.   And that is before you even factor in the particular turn, surface, and conditions that you are adapting to...    Geez, it kinda sounds like I'm arguing with myself;  older me lecturing the squidly me.   Just know that my opinion is addressed to nobody in particular. 
  I'm going to dig out my license plate this year and would love to go on some rides.  My first resolution!   Hopefully we'll be in touch. 
 
-Jim

That is truly sad to hear.   For reasons beyond me, supermoto seems to be making a comeback here in Cali.   I'll keep my fingers crossed for you that things will turn around in your neck of the woods...

BTW,  enjoyed watching one of your races from a chase cam.   Incredible drives on your corner exits!  Keep kicking ass and enjoy the ride in 2014.

Ya, it's lame. The neighbors hassle the track any chance they get, and this is another way. The track was only licensed as a go-kart track, so that's what they're using. Nevermind that the karts are louder than the SMs.  :P Getting the license modified requires public input, so... Pisses me off when people move next to a loud business that's been there for a long time, and then complain about the noise.

Thanks! I was slow into the tight left hander so I had to get good drives out of it!  [laugh] I worked with a fast AFM racer this past June and he really focused on technique to safely get good drives out of corners...seems to have helped. Now I just have to go faster everywhere else!  ;D

Well, this shot in the lovely weather is from the end of October which had a warmer day than last weekend when I was supposed to go to the track

Taking the new steed out for the first time. new lid, new steed, same old rider. need to get that inside arm up a bit more *tisk

(https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t31.0-8/965332_10151784087453843_1385441972_o.jpg)

Don't be so hard on your self.

Just get low in some comfortable position and have fun.

You're not doing this for a living after all ;)

I'm really not - but since I started this thread I do belive in a bit of humility. And there's always room for improvement - so why not try?

Do or do not...

;D

(http://www.rickclemson.com/UploadScript/Gallery/GM_33299.jpg)


This low enough? ;D

so before my friend crashed on my monster... me and the guy who used to ride in sneakers :D :D

(https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t1.0-9/10269440_10202476471125660_6154903324372422582_n.jpg)

(https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1.0-9/10173552_10202476475045758_3490678062345129406_n.jpg)

and although some vid... watch in HD

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10202476103636473&set=vb.1011107752&type=2&theater (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10202476103636473&set=vb.1011107752&type=2&theater)

Breaking in the new race bike a couple weekends ago.

(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n258/JJGeo/RidgeT6041214-small_zps3a5853af.jpg)

(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n258/JJGeo/RidgeT10041214-small_zpse04c6667.jpg)

Two thoughts-

A) awesome!

B) I think you could get your head and upper body lower which would stand the bike up more.

Your right arm looks bent 90 degrees. Shoot for 45 degrees and that would shove your upper body over more.

Unless you have T-rex arms. In that case just keep on keeping on ;D

Get them elbows down.  ;D

Upper picture has better form...it's a long left hander though, so it's easier. The bottom pic I can definitely get off more. FWIW, pretty much everyone looks like this here though...part of it is the nature of the turn...the other part is I'm not as young and flexible as I used to be!   :P

Right elbow is relaxed and laying on the tank in both pics, which is what I shoot for with my outside elbow. I do need to extend more though.

I can improve quite a bit still, and will continue to work on it a bit, but in the end I think it's "good enough". Now I just have to go faster! There are a lot of guys faster than me that look worse. I think body position is important up to a point, after which you just have to twist the throttle more and hit the brakes later. Bayliss, Schwantz, Pegram, etc. all have shit form but are stupid fast.  

(http://images.craigslist.org/00303_jme5swPokxS_600x450.jpg)


For conversation. ;D

I don't even know where to start [laugh]

A couple from last track day. I am postong some record-shattering slow times out there  [laugh].

(http://www.robbedroot.org/album/i.php?/upload/2014/04/20/20140420121007-70df3b3f-me.jpg)
(http://www.robbedroot.org/album/_data/i/upload/2014/04/20/20140420120743-e50ef13c-me.jpg)

Need to fix my hands. Anything else?

Yup, go faster and push on that inside bar harder. [thumbsup]

Yeah! I think when I get my hand correct in the "screwdriver" position like it's suppose to be, I should be able to do that a bit easier, thanks!

Saw this video on ebilbuk and thought I would share here . . .

Don't look sideways at 140mph (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtbMr-hElDY)

Ouch!!!  The world comes at you pretty fast at 140mph.

JM

This perspective seems to have helped, thanks. Here's a shot from yesterday, where I consciously worked on straightening my outside arm.  [thumbsup]

(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n258/JJGeo/10312122_760638133966455_862217472085532542_n_zpsc882e398.jpg)

You're on it there! [thumbsup]

Inside arm/elbow looks like how I want to do it.

Really like the body position.

Nice job J, looks the biz.  [thumbsup]

Yeah buddy!   You're bringin' it!!

How'd it feel riding that way?

Felt good. As soon as I did it I knew I got it right.  [thumbsup] Then I just had to work on repeating it. It's a lot harder than you would think to figure out.

Reminded me of the 1st time I made a turn on a snowboard and thought, "oh, that's how it is supposed to feel".

Easy does it, no need to overdo things  [cheeky]

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l394/stopintime/Rudskogen18mai2014ReneSkaret_zpsa645ae6f.jpg)

Dude!

Hang off at least a little :o

Nope - when I go flat out I can just hang my upper body a little inward - that's all it takes at my size/weight - on road tires. If I was on slicks and wanted to use the added grip, then I'd need to hang off.

90% of the track day riders I see hanging off, don't need to - often with ass off and upper body resisting - upsetting the bike and disturbing their smoothness - IMO

Update...the revised body position translated into dropping my lap times by 3 seconds this past weekend, while still feeling comfortable.  [thumbsup] This puts me up there racing with the "fast guys". I still can't hang with the top 5 or 6 guys in the open classes, but I'm getting closer, and I can hang with the rest of them. 4 of the top 5 number plates in our club race in the open classes, so that's what I'm up against.

The suspension guru also doesn't just tell me to just go faster anymore...he actually makes little tweaks to help out.  [laugh]

Well, then I'd say you're where the rest of us would lobe to be [thumbsup]

I'm basing my comment on lean angle.

What happens when you abruptly need to tighten your line to miss something (it happens more than you'd think)

You're gonna end up feeling like a buttered pony.

I think you're right - it would give me flexibility to tighten my line without running out of tire - good point. On a known track with little traffic, I choose to stay seated because I gain more by being stable than I loose by not being 'flexible'. Just one, of many ways, to deal with the forces.

If you lean over any farther you're gonna have to start sticking your foot out sumo style ;D

Awesome dude!

I've been working on a lot of stuff since being here last (jeez, it's been ages). One of which is looking at how Marquez changed the way to ride a bike, and especially a Moto2 600cc no-electronic-gizmos bike. Now when the rear gets light I don't move back to settle it, I keep my weight forward and ride the front end into the corner like a unicycle. As you start to turn and the rear is unloaded it will float to the outside (centrifugal force making it like a pendulum). With the rear wheel unweighted and light you don't have much braking from it (engine brake or tire friction) but as you trail brake into the apex it sets the rear down, while sideways, while you're counter steering, while you're leaning into the turn and you just pick your line, slide the rear tire a bit (chatter is taken up by the slipper) and pick up the throttle through the exit.

Obviously not every turn is like that, usually whatever is slow and just after a straight. But it's been working lately so I'm stoked. Try it out (don't be afraid of the bike moving under you, just trust and feel that front tire and suspension).

Oh, and a pic!

New lid, new leathers (yes, I've already crashed in them pretty good), new bodywork and paint, new suspension tuning, new confidence, new scratches on my elbow slider...

(http://media.ziptied.com/members/files/128/Novice%20Heavy%20ZB__4599-Jun1414%20copy_2.jpg)

Looking good Lindz!  [thumbsup]

Are you racing yet?

Yup, racing with MWGP out here. Started last season and going a lot more this season (have to miss a round here and there due to schedule conflicts... ya know the usual).

I just grabbed a shot of me scraping elbow from my GoPro and I got to 58° of lean in Riverside corner at Buttonwillow. 4th gear, pinned. FUN!

Nice!  [thumbsup] [thumbsup] [thumbsup] Racing is a blast!

(http://media.ziptied.com/members/files/128/Race%2006%20Novice%20HW%20ZB__6805-Jun1514%20copy%202.jpg)

(http://www.1904photography.com/Palomar-Mountain-motorcycle/2014/June-22/i-qHwMpVT/0/M/20140622_Palomar%20Mountain_2589-M.jpg)

I remember when he took this shot, felt like I nailed this corner, this is upon entry to the corner, decreasing radius uphill right-hander.

Here's one of me in T9 at PIR at MotoCorsa's last track day.  This was my second track day in the C group; I think I'm going to sign up for the B group for the September session.  It's super discouraging to try to work on cornering techniques when you're behind dudes on their brandy-new Superbikes that pin it on the straights and then stand on the binders to dawdle through the turns.  [bang]

(http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii181/Staggerlee101/e332a806-5c5e-4c83-bed1-0cef0f7cc2ec_zpsa017f03f.jpg)

Nice shot!!

keep working on the head position.

I'd like to revive this thread, if you don't mind :D

This picture is of around a month ago. No leather pants yet so very conservative with the knees and speed. I'd love some input, please. Although it's not the ideal photo.

What I do know: Need to lossen my grip on the bars more

By the way, any 696 owners here, helplessly scraping side stands?

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/10599493_569035113208339_6063271569249180461_n.jpg?oh=9ed32a853dcf790f3bebd1607972a4ff&oe=549A6379&__gda__=1422769999_3f403ef53c386870fa99eb661357aa80)

I had my sidestand-scrapes on my 696. Chances are you're leaning the bike over more than it has to be. Get your head down near the mirror and load the inside peg, have a cheek or so off the seat and it should stop.

Not a pro by any means but I've been there. More likely to scrape my toe now than my sidestand :).

Thanks Pesto,

I think you are right. I hang off a little, but it seems not enough to touch knee before sidestand. I'm using pretty much all of the tyre and I'm around 6ft tall. It shouldn't have to be.

:)

Alright,

I finally had my first trackday (ever!) on the Monster this past Sunday.

What an experience...I think I can finally relate to what people say about this. I don't even feel motivated to go to my favorite twisties. It's just another league.

A local guy took some photos of everyone, so I have some material:

(https://scontent-b-gru.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/q81/p480x480/10665980_10204090577237280_6187644300169668833_n.jpg?oh=95103e601bf68cf533c0dc4495728ee0&oe=5486448D)

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/p480x480/10676123_10204090567717042_162593641835319869_n.jpg?oh=d0d8322167b4d2dde428e66425ade815&oe=5490D20D&__gda__=1422678325_dbdcea62be96dbf0952582503a7af533)

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/p480x480/10404508_10204090577837295_5856675424304904343_n.jpg?oh=72b5316afeaa6d314a6749f1c81e071f&oe=548FDC84&__gda__=1422066555_15c825982e17a96895c76ab6c7156c56)

The good:

-Even though I have a LOT to improve regards laptimes and what not, I consciously kept the bike as upright as possible, by hanging off, and comparing with other riders (even slower) on the same corners, I have much less lean angle: it works! :D
-I was never extremely crossed up.
-I look through the turn (bmx years doing 360s sure help!)

The bad:

-I guess I could hang off more. The track is short and technical, I'm so tired... it's very physical, and on some corners I just didn't feel like moving over AGAIN! Need to improve my stamina, too.
-I'm not terribly crossed up, but I'm barely making a parallel line. Need to get my upper body lower towards the "mirror".
-My knee is not perfectly extended. I just couldn't bother... as I said, constantly changing direction, I just wanted to learn good lines.
-My inner hand is trying a screwdriver grip, but again, I constantly felt I had no time to really get myself in a "perfect" body position. I know it's my fault, need to learn to move faster and more efficiently.
-Same with feet. My toes COULD touch down (never did).
-I need to breath. I was so excited, and impressed by the experience of taking corners faster than I thought advisable, my face looks tense even on the photos. My mouth dried up constantly.
-I need to loosen up more. I was never stiff-armed, but on tight corners I had this weird sensation that it was dangerous to hang off more, as if I was too low and could scrape my body on the inner side of the corner  ??? ; of course, pictures tell me otherwise haha Need to have more confidence in this, and hang lower, with a more relaxed body. It's hard to explain, but I felt like I had to hold myself up on the bike, including the knee. I see Lindz photos again, and damn, how must HE feel then!!

Open to more critique :)

Exactly  [thumbsup]


I know that feeling..."If I gun it here I'll just have to brake hard later...not worth it"  [laugh]. Truthfully, I take a break each session for 2 minutes off the track to get my breath and recompose myself, then get back on. YMMV.

The 2nd part makes sense. When I hear "hang off" I sometimes wonder. I've found I don't really have to move my butt that much, it's the upper body. Sounds like you're on the right track....so to speak.  Mind that sidestand, too.

Good luck and thanks for posting, I love seeing Monsters on the track!

Your butt half way off the seat is plenty as far as hanging off goes. Some do more, but it isn't really necessary. What's important is finding something comfortable.

figured that this might be something that the male contingent might like to study, both good forms and bad form...
(http://i57.tinypic.com/a4k0m.jpg)

Ow ow ow make the beast with two backsing ow...

The first one, in red is already crashed, she's just not hit the Tarmac herself yet. The second is about sure to follow. There was some nasty rash doled out moments after that photo

Shenanigans.

Red jacket girl has been (badly) photoshopped in; mirror-imaged and sloppily cropped.

I'll go along with the crashing and not on the tarmac yet, just not in this picture.

Black jacket girl is doing a good job of hanging off Doohan Style.

I'm more concerned about the apparent target fixation on the concrete wall on the outside.

Maybe looking for an exit line?

Red jacket girl is photoshopped in.

No exit line necessary, apart from just completing the corner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--kJkdy9I5E&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--kJkdy9I5E&feature=youtu.be)
Id say this bloke has a good grip on things, enjoy

I know this is old post but you have it backwards. If you were on slicks you wouldn't need to hang off for added grip. The slicks will provide the grip.

You're close to you max lean angle. Hanging off will allow you to keep the bike more upright and give you more grip if something unexpected arises.

My primary reason to hang off (if on slicks and going faster) would be to avoid dragging parts (pegs and boots).

Hanging off, to have a little spare contact patch in case of something unexpected, is ok. It can be done to allow for adjustments, but also have a price in the form of instability.

My point is that track day riders often/"always" hang off without needing to.

In my opinion, if hanging off is what's causing the instability, then it sounds like you're not locked onto the bike. I have noticed the the Monster is harder to get locked on compared to say a zx6r or a RC51 (I have experience with these 2 bikes) due to th shape and size of the tank.  You should consult a track instructor or professional about this.

The track days I attend promote "hanging off" to one degree or another. Half a butt cheek and keeping the body in the same line is fine for the street just in case you encounter the unexpected.

They usually promote hanging off to make it a habit for when/if it becomes a requirement.

I'm locked on and very stabil because I don't hang off  ;) Grip pads and custom tank center hump help me with that.

My point isn't about me. It's about how many/most riders don't gain anything by hanging off, but since it's a sensible idea to make it a habit for when/if they become fast enough...

The instability is obvious though (mostly during braking and exit).

Besides addressing ground clearance, lean angle, and tire profile,  proper "hanging off" is the only way to get enough weight onto the front tire for particular bikes, set-ups, corners, and speed.   This does not apply to all motorcycles, but I've been on bikes before where stretching my neck out to get my chin just a bit farther forward is what it took to keep the front tire from pushing...    Motorcycles are awesome!

To be stable when hanging off one needs to lock the outside leg by pushing it against the cut out in the tank by leveraging the pegs. It takes some getting use to because it uses muscles usually not used.

How the heck do I post photos!!

Link them through something like photobucket.

I would have to link it to the whole page though, not just the photo...right?

Either would work. but if you have the URL for the image, you can post that inside the correct formatting tags

One of the buttons above the text window when you reply will pop in the tags for you, and just paste the url between them

Any of you motard guys got any techniques to practice for quick canyon riding? Its the ride postion thats throwing me.
I am used to track racing sport bikes and dont have a dirt background. Its like changing from boxing to MMA. I guess organizing my body positioning to get the bike leaned is my issue. It feels awfully high up with a precarious high centre of gravity. I will work on drills this Spring with any suggestions.
Cheers.

Push it down? Or hang off? What's your flavor?

Im ok hanging off on sweeping corners and long fast corners, but the tight stuff is throwing me. I may have to learn the push it down, dirt bike drop for tight corners. I just have no confidence with that at present. :P   I hang off knee down on my Gixxer and can push it under through tight esses to set up for the exit corner drive, but Im still learning where to anchor myself on this giant chook chaser. Like learning another language.
Actually hanging off sportsbike style might initially help my confidence. Im having trouble getting down low on this thing. In some corners Im quicker than on a sportsbike, but the tight stuff has been difficult for this old dog to learn new tricks. :P

Riding the new track in Palmer, MA on a new to me bike. Damn this bike is fun! By mid morning I was riding close to midpack in the intermediate group.

I can see that I might be hanging off too much on lefts turns but that was because I was concerned with ground clearance. Now I know clearance is not an issue and I think I will hang off less in the future, but it is fun! Constructive criticism is welcome. Gotta figure it out and get on my toes more. Although it doesn't look like it, I was working on gripping the bars like a screwdriver to get my shoulds points in and help with getting my upper body lower.

And GoPro of one of the earlier sessions.

https://youtu.be/H-mDbjtrVgE?t=30s

Hanging off too much perhaps. I can hang off less to give my outer arm more slack to use for leveraging the bars for maneuvers.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3693/19658759092_d1efb9b276_o.png)

I think this one is almost on the money. Constructive criticisms welcome.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/437/19676993792_f3055eb206_o.png)

Slightly crossed up, and toes hanging low (damn exhaust) so need to get on more toes more.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3800/19043271564_024f9ef0a1_o.png)

Not bad Swift!  [thumbsup]

My main recommendation would be to try to get your upper body lower, as you look like you're sitting fairly upright. Like you said, you don't need to hang off that much...one butt cheek off the seat is enough. Not a big deal though IMO. It's important that your comfortable, so if you are, then all is good. The good news is you aren't crossed up. You are a little on the right hander, but not terrible. How good my form is depends on the corner...long, fast ones and I look pretty good - slower, tight ones and I tend to be crossed up (like a lot of riders).

I wouldn't worry about your feet either. What your doing is OK. When you start dragging your toes you'll figure out a way to tuck your foot in more.

   I'm assuming that you're talking about riding a Hypermotard which unfortunately I have not yet had the pleasure of flogging.   Although the handlebars, seating, and foot positions are similar to what we use in supermoto,  the massive weight difference coupled to the fact that it still has roadracing DNA and an L-twin (where supermoto bikes tend to be motocross based, lighter, and naturally more nimble) makes me unsure if "foot out" style would be much better on anything but tight kart tracks.  Still might be a hoot though.  Here are a couple of casual vids from a local supermoto school that covers a few of the basics...

https://youtu.be/agpIDUN3i4I
 and
https://youtu.be/_5Hi1rUKuPQ

   As technology and grip have improved, the elite riders don't tend to move their butts too far off to the outside as might have been the norm in days past.  For examples, look up any Luc1 video and branch out from there.   
   In comparing the two styles, I am able to ride my 450 supermoto bike at similar solo lap times at many tracks but the bike requires a set-up change to do so.  In simple terms, knee out puts more weight on the front tire and can be balanced by raising the front end (lowering forks in triples).   Riding foot out is more neutral to rear and so I lower the front end.  In a standard race situation I feel that  foot out is far superior for both attacking and defending where swooping momentum lines are complimented by knee down style.  But no matter how you ride, if you're having a good time doing it, you can't be too far off...
   You mentioned issues with body position and leaning, as well as feeling "a precarious high centre of gravity".   I'd suggest researching and practicing counter-steering and how it pertains to quick flicking/turning a motorcycle.   With both the ground clearance and handlebar leverage that you have, the high center of gravity should actually will work to your advantage and possibly eliminate the need to even move a muscle off of centerline, for all but the most extreme corners.  In a nutshell, to flick a bike to the right, I would PUSH the right bar FORWARD, causing the bike to fall/drop to the right, then transition into a normal steering input to catch, control, and complete the turn.  As your speed increases, so does the amount of force required to flick the bike and initiate the lean. (I tend to be a "puller" but am told that it's a bad habit...)  Whether you are aware of the physics behind it or not, setting up a simple slalom course with cones or cans is a sure way to familiarize yourself with slinging a bike around to the point where it becomes second nature.
   

Thanks MWG.
Im actually a pretty hard countersteerer. I guess Im struggling with being sò high "up there". Im gonna practice crawling all over the bike, getting my torso low and finding anchor points. Its probably just all in my head and requiring the appropriate desensitization program. [Dolph]

Just do it exactly like this guy... (I know it's not N.Hayden)

https://youtu.be/Stmu0PEUQX4

He has a pretty exaggerated form at times but does not seem to have to move his butt or torso much while transitioning from corner to corner.  The onboard footage is also a fine example of soft hands (vs. death grip) and clutch work.

Just noticed that at the 4:40 mark is an example of what some call a hip flick which uses the outside knee of the current corner for steering leverage as you transition into an opposing corner.

Cool vid. I will go with traditional hanging off first to build my confidence as that's what this old dog knows. The vid shows it can be done quite smoothly actually. I notice the taller riders get knee down easily on these tall motards. Im 5'8" with ducks disease, so I'll work on my anchor points.
Cheers.

Ya I get it. I'm 6' tall and I'm scooted all the way back. I can get lower but have to make a hard conscious effort to do so. Will take some practice and getting used to this bike. I will work on not hanging off my lower body as much and more on the upper body as it's more practical for the street as well.

Palmer is pretty technical. Totally new track this year and trying to figure out the lines. Most of the corners are either late apex or double apex. Plus it's got 190' of elevation change and it's mostly in the corners.  Here's an aerial shot

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/341/19722279246_2ebba57c21_o.jpg)

That looks super fun!!

It does...looks to be a little lacking in the run-off area though.

It is fun and it does lack some safety features. They're actively under construction. But this is a trackday track, not a race track. And primarily a car track. We are told to ride well within our limits around 60-70% as a result of that.

The track layout is just amazing. Like a favorite loop in the mountains of Vermont.

After a long time...


(https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t1.0-9/11846740_10205660614127245_1248508028519039276_n.jpg?oh=5bd59850f0e614db77f7d2cd4e436251&oe=564B8DD1)

(https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10370414_10205660656128295_4356586768941077726_n.jpg?oh=47726d9cff573d6b151501ad1d0c3d07&oe=5636C611)

Two years ago

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-hNDj4QEIY_g/UccJ22ss9kI/AAAAAAAAAeE/MuJ6u-w-AAY/w866-h577-no/IMG_0095.JPG)

 and today
(https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/t31.0-8/p180x540/11864775_1178878702127772_1986851175316463224_o.jpg)

(https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/t31.0-8/q85/p180x540/11872008_1178878792127763_5554181351611912287_o.jpg)



(https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/t31.0-8/p180x540/11046322_1178878405461135_1530869942938069725_o.jpg)

Nice to see you staying on your side of the line.

It can get dicey if you don't. ;)

Good form in that you're nice and straight, and your head is low. I don't think you need to hang off that far though. 1 butt cheek is generally all that's needed.

When I do not hang off so much I scratch my stand on left and my rear brake lever on right.. So I hang off more to increase speed without scratching anything... Thanks a lot... I enjoy it so much..

I just want to say this thread is excellent! I don't have the luxury of photos of myself but analyzing others have made me notice that I am more crossed up than I thought I have been. It doesn't help I came from an MX background and got into road riding maybe a little late so any help is good.

So guys.. I have sold my M620 and bought 749... do not have any photo riding it instead of this one...

(https://scontent-frt3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xlf1/v/t1.0-9/12523874_10207128788790694_3350613837292349194_n.jpg?oh=78532d136cd6bd4fb2da3d362148e96d&oe=5776E267)

Looking good!  [thumbsup]

Finally some better photos...Not going fast, filming slower guys from behind..

(https://scontent-frt3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13118939_10207362626276485_566312605551453003_n.jpg?oh=333b2553c2eddfd2045de1f29fc96c55&oe=579DA485)

(https://scontent-frt3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13173781_10207362622356387_2155550860976095413_n.jpg?oh=304c385f72f349c2cfaeb553b4ede007&oe=57E48084)

Here vid.. taken from Aprilia RSV


https://youtu.be/4qCn8U3MlV0 (https://youtu.be/4qCn8U3MlV0)