Hi everyone,
I recently bought a used 99 Monster 750. I planned on riding it a bit more before I started asking questions here but I ran into a mechanical issue this evening that surprised and worried me. I rode the bike Saturday without any troubles, but when I took it out tonight I noticed that the engine seemed rather weak. I wasn't getting nearly the pull when starting and while it's never very smooth in first gear, the choppiness seemed stronger than usual. It really struggled to go fast at all, topping out under 30mph (though I wasn't trying to push it too hard). It was idling like it wanted to stall, and sure enough, it stalled several times as I rode just within a couple blocks from my house. Had a really hard time restarting it, and when I did I let it sit a bit longer, revved the engine some and noticed the strong scent of gasoline (I always smell a little though). I'm not sure if I didn't let it warm up enough or if there's something more serious going on. I'm new to riding and know even less about the mechanics of motorcycles (something I need to learn so I'm open to suggestions for resources). I'll probably need to get it looked at by the Ducati dealership nearby, but I thought I'd see if there might be some ideas you all had that I might investigate further before taking her in. When I bought the bike I had the previous owner meet me at the dealership where a mechanic took a very quick and superficial glance at the bike and asked many questions about the maintenance history (which was consistent with the paperwork) and said it looked like a great bike. Not sure what my first step should be. Hopefully someone here can talk me through a couple ways to troubleshoot and maybe we can narrow it down. Your collective expertise will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!
Any gas overflow to the ground from the carb hoses?
Does the bike blow black smoke when it misses?
Pickup coils/sensor. Sounds like the bike is dropping a cylinder. Quick troubleshoot, when the bike starts doing this again, pull off one of the spark plug wires, if the bike dies, reconnect, restart. Try the opposite wire, if the bike continues to run with no apparent change in roughness at idle/throttle. You aren't getting spark to that cylinder. The pickup sensor is a known failure on this model (I have replace two on carbed M750s). Check and report back.
Follow that ^^ first.
On an older bike it's also quite possible your carbs need some TLC. Parts like the needles in the carbs do wear over time and can use poor or no running. Floats can get stuck or restricted etc etc. I'd first track a known trouble maker like HK noted, then start to ensure everything was is proper order after. Spark plugs replaced and gapped, check the air filter and intake. Replace filter if needed etc etc.
x2
if it's been a while, it'd probably be a good idea to clean and/or rebuild the carbs either way. it couldnt hurt, could only make things better.
for the pickup coils, you can unplug them from the ignition units (the two-wire plugs) and check the resistance between the two wires. it should be 95-105 ohms.
the actual ignition coils could also be an issue if they are original, might want to look into replacing those with aftermarket ones if all else fails.
whats funny is I have a '00 M750 with the original pickup coils, and one of them is actually cracked, but still is within spec and has never missed a beat :p
Thank you all for the suggestions. I'm gonna try to troubleshoot the pickup sensor per your advise, HK...that is, if I can figure out how from the manual I downloaded. I don't suppose there's a book on Monster Maintenance/Repairs specifically, is there?
I'll have to inquire with the previous owner about the condition of the carbs. I'd have thought the Ducati mechanic would have pointed that out or taken a closer look just to see if something needed attention. I know he had the 6k tuning as soon as he acquired the bike last year, and it was a little late at 7500 miles (he put about 4000 miles on it since then). I didn't notice any gas dripping or black smoke. I'll take a look in the morning and report back if I find anything; my boss has tools he said I could borrow if I need them but won't have access til later in the day. Thanks again everyone! The info here will prove invaluable in no time.
Quote from: Saxofoto on July 11, 2012, 11:09:55 PMI don't suppose there's a book on Monster Maintenance/Repairs specifically, is there?
yes, there is, I have it sitting right in front of me right now. that's where I got the specs from and the testing procedure that I posted above.
It's the Haynes Manual, number 3290. titled "Ducati 600, 620, 750 & 900 2-valve v-twins '91 to '05". it covers all '91-'02 M750's, I bought it on ebay for around $30, I recently used it to do a complete overhaul on my '00 M750, including a complete engine overhaul/rebuild, and to diagnose a few minor issues it had previously as well. I literally rebuilt my entire bike from the ground up. It's extremely easy to understand and provides PLENTY of pictures, and even has full color wiring diagrams
there is also a spec for setting the ignition timing and the air gap between the pickup coils and the flywheel, but that should not be an issue because that doesnt change unless you actually physically move the parts yourself, so it wouldnt be something that would just start to happen on its own.
Ok, so finally today I had a chance to troubleshoot the problem as recommended by HK. And thanks also to motoxmann for the tip on the Haynes Manual. I ordered one from Amazon for $35, had a gift cert, and signed up for prime to get it asap (arrived yesterday). As predicted, the engine died pulling one spark plug wire (horizontal), but not the other (vertical). When pulling the vertical plug, I noticed that there seemed to be angles where the power was delivered properly and the engine revved higher as a result. That happened by accident; as I pulled and the wire finally gave, it came out of my hand a recoiled back toward the spark plug from whence it came. It landed in a way that seemed to rev the engine higher. I killed the engine at that point not knowing what that implied. I decided to retest the process though to be sure. Given that info, what is the likely culprit thus far? Is there a temporar or alternate solution? I called the local dealer who told me pickup coil replacement would cost around $350 with parts and labor, and they can't even run a diagnostic for two weeks (I'm gonna have them inspect the bike then anyway) plus another two weeks to get parts for it. I'd like to see what else I can manage on my own; see if I can get it ridable, otherwise I have nothing to ride for a month. What do you guys think?
I'd probably put in a new set of plugs first, but it sounds like you have a bad spark plug wire, or perhaps the connection with that wire and the coil.
the spark plug caps screw onto the plug wires. if they rotate easily on the wires, pull them off, cut the end off the wire and screw them on again. use a lubricant like silicon spray to make it easier. this is something i often do at service. replace the plugs too.
always start with the bits you can see. they tend to be cheaper and it's much less effort.
With a bike that old it could be anything, so start with the cheap stuff. 1st, go to an electronics store and buy a can of contact cleaner. I like CAIG ProGold, because it coats as week as cleans, but there ate a lot of brands.
Replace spark plugs (after spraying contacts with contact cleaner.) see if your problem goes away. If not replace spark plug wires with some good ones. Problem remains, then think about replacing expensive electronic parts. $350 for OEM COILS? BS. Buy a pair of Dynacoils and install them yourself. (After checking them as above, of course)
Good luck. Electrical problems can be tough.
FWIW, I have a can of CAIG and a tube of dielectric grease and I clean/coat every electrical connection within reach every time I dig into the bike. It's amazing the problems you can avoid.
And new spark plugs. At low engine speeds increased gap means higher voltage, which helps a fouled plug fire.
Thanks for the ideas. It definitely makes sense to fix the cheaper things first and try to clean the contact points. I was just messing around with it with a friend who rides and is only slightly more mechanically inclined. It seems more and more clear that the problem is at the interaction between the wire and the spark plug. If I keep the plug just barely on where there's no metal connection and the rubber just starts to cover the insulator, the cylinder will fire and I can hear the spark plug clicking. It seems crazy to me but as soon as I push it on more the connection is somehow short and the cylinder drops. Could it just be the plug end of the wire? Where would I get a replacement part to test this? I might replace the spark plugs too but they actually look fairly new, probably less than a year old. I feel better that this probably isn't going to be a major repair.
I don't suppose the plug cap is damp or dirty? From your description, the problem could easily be moisture or dirt on the plug cap conducting to ground when the rubber+dirt/moisture connects to the head. Try thoroughly cleaning and drying the cap - WD40 and elbow grease to clean it, maybe followed with denatured alcohol to dry it.
As Brad mentioned, the plug caps screw onto the wires, so one diagnostic option would be to swap the horizontal and vertical cylinders plug caps, and see if the problem changes cylinder or not.
big
i wouldn't increase plug gap on a carby bike. anything over 0.7mm with std coils impacts cold and low speed running. even with dyna coils my 600 liked 0.6mm.
the ca cycleworks coils are well worth the money should you suspect the coils. they're worth it anyway. plus you get new leads and caps with them.
Quote from: brad black on July 14, 2012, 03:36:41 PM
the spark plug caps screw onto the plug wires. if they rotate easily on the wires, pull them off, cut the end off the wire and screw them on again. use a lubricant like silicon spray to make it easier. this is something i often do at service. replace the plugs too.
always start with the bits you can see. they tend to be cheaper and it's much less effort.
x2 to this. unscrew, or simply pull the spark plug cap off the plug wire. cut about 1cm off the end of the plug wire, then screw the cap back onto the wire making sure it stays properly centered as you start to screw it on so the terminal actual goes into the wire itsself and not the surrounding insulation. one it screws on roughly 1cm and begins to tighten up, put a new small ziptie around the boot to clamp it to the wire, and try again.
I've found this is almost necessary every 5k miles or so on almost every bike I've ever owned, especially dirtbikes that saw a lot of moisture and vibration
alright, latest update. I've tried trimming the wire with no success. Having exactly the same issue still. A couple mechanically savvy coworkers think that most likely the whole wire needs to be replaced, not the spark plug or coils since current is running through (one also wondered if there's supposed to be a crimp at the end that goes into the cap . I just don't get how the current can go through all the way to the spark plug when it can arc over the air but is shorting out with the cap all the way on. Why doesn't that implicate the cap instead? Wouldn't a short in the wire prevent it from EVER delivering the current all the way across the length of the wire to the plug? I have an appointment at the dealer to do an inspection next Wednesday, which I'll do whether I figure this out on my own or not. If there is an explanation as to how that's physically possible, I'm open to it; I just don't understand it thus far with my limited knowledge. Next thing I'd like to try is swapping the caps to see if the problem stays with the caps or the wires. My concern there is that the horizontal plug works and I don't want to mess that up (could it fray/tear the functioning wire?), but it seems worthwhile. Can anyone shed a little more light on this shorting issue?
The wire itself should be 0 ohms or close to it. The terminal cap should be 5K ohms + 10%. If your coil wire is integral with the coil it should be 13.5K ohms + 20% from the end of the wire to ground. Keep in mind, since things don't get bad until hot, you need to test hot or all might test good.
Another way to go about this is to switch parts one at a time until the misfire switches to the other cylinder.
The cap us supposed to screw into the wire so there is no gap. Oh, you did try new spark plugs, didn't you?
I've never encountered a bad cap, nor heard of one, but anything is possible.
if the juice is making it to the cap, I doubt there's anything wrong with the wire itsself, and assuming the cap might be bad is probably a pretty good guess and explanation. so yeah, I would definitely try switching the caps, and as howie said one part at a time until it switches cylinders
So the caps are meant to come off normally? Doing so won't damage a healthy wire? I haven't tried new spark plugs because both are definitely capable of producing sparks under certain positions of the wire.
Just tried switching the caps and the problem didn't switch cylinders. I guess that rules out the caps. Maybe I'll try switching the spark plugs next if I can borrow the right tools. Replacing the wire seems sensible too, just not sure if I have the know-how, but I'll look at the Haynes manual for guidance if I decide to try. Does anyone have a recommendation for spark plugs or new wires/caps? I might locate my own parts in case I end up having the dealership fix the problem and I'll probably save some money and time.
correct, the caps are meant to come off normally without damaging the wire, so long as you unscrew them off and dont just yank them off. but you can only do it a couple times before needing to trim the wire again, because the threading of the probe in the cap that goes into the wire will start to damage the wire after a few times. personally I always trim the wire at least a little bit any time I reinstall a cap just to make sure it has fresh wire to connect with
I suggest starting with factory recommendation of plugs: Champion RA6HC, Autozone stocks them, as well as most motorcycle shops. make sure they are gapped to 0.024"-0.025". the plugs with come with large top tips installed on them (cap end), but your bike is meant to use them with the small threaded tips. simply grab a pair of pliers, hold the plug in your hand and grip the tips with the pliers and unscrew them a hair to crack them loose, then unscrew them the rest of the way by hand.
and if at all possible, use a torque wrench to tighten them in the cylinders, torque them to 18 ft/lbs. doing it by hand/feel could be hazardous to your bike's health, as I have actually broken a few of these spark plugs at a mere 22-23 ft/lbs before, and 15 ft/lbs or less is too loose and will often allow the plug to rattle free
A couple of points:
If your ignition system is suspect, your can order a pair of Dynacoils from CACycleworks that come with top notch new spark plug wires for around the cost of 1.5-2 hrs of dealer shop rate.
You can buy a case (12) OEM Champions for about the same price as 4 from a local auto parts store from www.sparkplugs.com
Thanks, Dlearl476. That might be the way I have to go. I ordered a couple cheap spark plugs just to try but I doubt that's the culprit here. It seems to be the wire even tho I can't understand how the physics adds up. I talked to the dealership today, and they don't think the wire can be replaced without replacing the entire pickup coil assembly bc the wires are sealed in. Can anyone verify that? It's really annoying that the 50 cent wire can cost $300 to replace as a result of that design, but I guess that's the life of owning a Ducati. I will definitely go the dynacoil route if need be. I want to try to replace it myself, but before I go that route is there anything else I can check (besides spark plugs) to make sure this will solve the problem before I spend $160 or so? What about the ignition control unit? Is that replaced seperately or is it part of the dynacoils? I browsed that site a bit and prices seem reasonable. Thanks again.
The wire is in the coil, not the pick up coil, which is in the engine. Whether the wire is integral (one piece with the coil) or separate is a mixed bag. Ducati used both designs in the '90s. Just see if the wire pulls out.
Also,
Quote from: howie on July 18, 2012, 04:14:52 AM
The wire itself should be 0 ohms or close to it. The terminal cap should be 5K ohms + 10%. If your coil wire is integral with the coil it should be 13.5K ohms + 20% from the end of the wire to ground. Keep in mind, since things don't get bad until hot, you need to test hot or all might test good.
Another way to go about this is to switch parts one at a time until the misfire switches to the other cylinder.
The cap us supposed to screw into the wire so there is no gap. Oh, you did try new spark plugs, didn't you?
You can buy a cheap meter for less than $25, cheaper than replacing coils as a guess.
This is all a bit confusing, and I was also confused looking at the Haynes manual in this regard. When you say "the wire is in the coil, not the pick up coil..." do you mean the ignition HT coil then? I can't quite picture the whole assembly that's giving me problems. The wiring diagram in this guide isn't making it clearer to me what connects to what. I'm looking at this on CA Cycleworks for visual reference: http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/2vcoils (http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/2vcoils) Are these the dyna coils? What does "dyna" mean? These are ignition coils and not pickup coils, which was the first recommendation in this thread. This seems like a worthwhile upgrade anyway as it appears to smooth out the low end, but would this definitively solve my problem? Would these wires help if mine aren't integral: http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/cr58515 (http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/cr58515)
As for the metering, I'm not really following you. I get what these numbers mean generally, but I don't understand what they mean in reference to my issue. Can I adjust these somehow or is it just to see if I can locate a point where the ohms are out of spec? And as for a gap, the gap I mentioned is the one between the spark plug and the wire's cap that somehow manages to deliver the current to generate a spark and ignite the cylinder (when that gap is closed and the cap is in the proper place is when my issue occurs and I lose the cylinder; I still don't understand how this is possible).
Thanks again for everyone's input.
The coils in question are the high tension coils. "Dyna coil" is a brand name that is known to produce a better spark than the factory coils. Chris Kelly no longer sells them, he now sells his own product, "exact Fit Coils", as in your link. The pick up coils could be your problem, though they usually fail either completely or when hot. The pick up coils should read 95+5 ohms. Test them at the 2 pin connector at your ignition modules.
The specs I am giving you are resistance. Ohms is a measurement of resistance. If there is too much resistance in a conductor (wire or connection) it needs to be repaired/replaced. If there is too much resistance or to little resistance in a winding (in your case, coil or pick up) the part is defective (open or shorted)
If spark plug is fouled increasing the gap (pulling the plug wire off the spark plug a very little bit can increase the available voltage to the spark plug, helping it fire. If you want to fix this problem by guesswork, plugs are a lot cheaper than coils, a little over $3 a plug at Ca-Cycleworks.
Ignition may not even be your problem. It can be fuel or mechanical, or even those expensive, pesky ignition modules, bet tested by switching from one cylinder to the other.
Have you considered taking the bike to a local competent shop? Fixing things by the "shotgun method" can be expensive and time consuming.
Your problem
Quote from: Saxofoto on July 19, 2012, 08:50:54 PMI talked to the dealership today, and they don't think the wire can be replaced without replacing the entire pickup coil assembly bc the wires are sealed in. Can anyone verify that?
it seems the conversation with the person at the dealership had both of you confused, because it sounds like the dealership guy thought you were referring to the pickup coils, which are a completely different part than the current topic in this thread; the ignition coils. the dealership guy is correct; the wires to the pickup coils can not be replaced seperately, they are an integral part of the pickup coils, and that assembly is like $300. but that is the incorrect part, at least in reference to what we are currently discussing here. the pickup coils may still be at fault, and we've referenced how to test those a few different times, but from what I can gather you haven't tested those yet. that is what I mentioned on the first page, and what the guy a few posts up referred to again. testing the resistance of the wires with an oem spec of 95-105 ohms, which should be done asap to eliminate from being a possible culprit, or determining it to be the actual fault.
the topic at hand here currently/recently though is the spark plug wires and the ignition coils. and as the guy above said, some spark plug wires are integral to the ignition coil, and some are replaceable seperately. I have a 2000 M750, which is identical to your 99. My spark plug wires appear to be replaceable, but I have never attempted to disconnect them from the coils, so I dont know for sure if they are replaceable seperately or not. I would offer to check for you, but I honestly don't know when I'll have the opportunity to do so, so maybe someone else here can be of more assistance in determining if they are in fact replaceable seperately or not.
My '99 M750 has ignition coils with replaceable plug wires - there's a screw-threaded spike in the hole in the coil that screws into the middle of e plug wire. Like Howie says though, with Ducati in that era, the actual parts that ended up on your bike could be a bit of a crap shoot, the only way to know for sure is to take them apart.
Big
I've noticed that the black coils had removable plug wires and the grey coils had integral wires usually. Depends what Luigi found supplied in the parts box on that days production run. [laugh]
What color were your coils?
This has shed some light on my frustration. I was definitely conflating the two for awhile, even after I had figured out they were indeed separate components; just didn't know which coils the spark plug wires connected to. I am going to get a meter to check the resistances tomorrow now that I've reread this part of the Haynes. When I dig into the bike a bit I should be able to see if my wires are replaceable. Tomorrow is my day to figure as much out as I can and hopefully at least rule out the pickup coils. I think I want to get the dyna (ignition) coils regardless as that may solve a separate thing I noticed about the bike's jerkiness when starting (could have been this issue in its early stages too). Howie, your last post makes more sense now too, so I'll be checking/replacing the spark plugs as well. It sucks to have an issue so early into owning a bike, one that renders it unrideable, no less. But it's been a tremendous learning experience so far; kind of makes it all worthwhile. I'll report back when I uncover something new. Thanks again, everyone!
Look on the bright side, at least you didnt experience what I did:
Bought my 00 M750 with it barely running, and got it fairly cheap due to this. I knew it was just a clogged fuel filter and gummed up carbs. New filter and carb cleaning and it was good as new two days after I bought it.
It needed an oil change, so that was next. And with the excitement of just buying and registering it, I didnt want to wait on an oil filter so I tried napa. Sure enough they had a listing, and the filter was chrome, and it fit perfectly, and appeared identical to a ducati filter, and was of good quality and had celophane over the end and everything. Drain old oil, it's blacker than black but perfectly clean. Well, turns out there was metal debris inside the napa filter on the clean side, because over the next 300 miles I started hearing a knocking sound that got louder and louder. Sure enough, at the 300 mile mark I drained the oil and it was extremely light colored still but FILLED with metalflake! Looked like heavy car paint. Engine nearly destroyed. So two weeks after I bought the bike I needed to do a complete engine overhaul.
Upon disassembly I discovered both rod bearings to have 1/8inch grooves in them from large debris getting to them. And the metalflake that was in the oil damaged several other parts.
never again will I buy an oil filter at napa, car or bike
Alas, I fixed the problem. It was the freaking spark plug the whole time. [bang] I bought some tools today at Sears and spark plugs from Autozone they had shipped in for me after matching my bike to their database. I went to swap one out and noticed immediately that it was the wrong plug. Armed with my new socket wrench, I swapped the vert and horiz plugs and sure enough the problem swapped cylinders along with them. Called Autozone back, this time with the proper part # for the NGK plugs and they had them in stock! I feel rather foolish, but this was definitely a worthwhile experience. I feel a lot more comfortable getting hands-on with bike mechanics, and with the knowledge bestowed upon me in this thread, I think I'll take a stab at installing dyna coils myself; gotta get my $$ out of these tools! I will start a new thread on that subject as all the search results seem out of date now that CA Cycleworks doesn't sell Dyna.
Thanks again to everyone here for the help!! Such valuable knowledge among you all and so grateful the Internet allows us to share it.
Why not Chris's Exact Fit coils?
Are they as good as the dyna? I just hear about dyna coils a lot; wasn't sure if they were especially good or if Chris' would work just as well.
As you were typing, my bike just crapped out on me and won't even start. I'm waiting for a cab to pick me up and take me home. Perhaps I didn't tighten the spark plugs enough? Neither cylinder will fire now.
which NGK plugs did you get? I can't seem to figure out exactly which are the correct NGK plugs for our m750's.
I previously tried a set that is most commonly suggested and had immediate major issues with them. best I've used yet is still the champion RA6HC plugs. I'm an NGK lover though, so I really want proper NGK plugs in my duc
NGK DCPR8E #4339 I see also #4179 here: http://sparkplugs.com/results_cross.asp?pid=dcpr8e&x=0&y=0 (http://sparkplugs.com/results_cross.asp?pid=dcpr8e&x=0&y=0)
Only difference I can find there is solid vs removable terminal nut. I know the part # is correct as it's on the dealership's maintenance record from 1 year/4000 miles ago. I used their application link and found our bike: http://sparkplugs.com/results_appOther.asp?otherMotiveID=224608&mfid=1 (http://sparkplugs.com/results_appOther.asp?otherMotiveID=224608&mfid=1)
Seem like the right ones. I'll also get a beam torque wrench tomorrow to makes sure they are fit properly. DAMN! So close...
http://www.carpimoto.com/EN/Bike_Ducati_Monster-1100/Specific/1053_DPR8EA9-NGK-DPR8EA9-Spark-Plug.htm (http://www.carpimoto.com/EN/Bike_Ducati_Monster-1100/Specific/1053_DPR8EA9-NGK-DPR8EA9-Spark-Plug.htm)
that looks like it's for the 1100. This has the M750 listed as well: http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/products/electrical/ngk-dcpr8e-each (http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/products/electrical/ngk-dcpr8e-each)
You are correct in what NGK says. http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/apps/motorcycles/make4.asp?id=3955&type=reg (http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/apps/motorcycles/make4.asp?id=3955&type=reg)
Ok, I'm seriously stumped again. I thought it was feasible that I was out of gas. Engine sounded like it was trying to start but just wouldn't turn over. I know I got the bike when it was low on fuel and as a rocked the bike back and forth I didn't hear any swoosh of liquid in the tank. So I put about a half a gallon of premium gasoline in there. As I've been trying to start it up, it sounds weaker and now all I hear is clicking (perhaps my spark plugs clicking). Looking at the Haynes guide indicates it could be many issues, none of which presented themselves until now. I feel like the most obvious thing would be something I just adjusted/fixed myself, a user error. But who knows? Any ideas?
the battery is now dead from trying to start it so much. the clicking is the starter relay operating, but without enough juice for the starter to turn. get a motorcycle battery charger on that battery asap
sounds like the ngk plugs did exactly what happened when I tried ngk plugs. this is why I always suggest people get a set of oem plugs for testing purposes: champion RA6HC, autozone stocks them. this is the exact reason why I still use champions in my bike.
or, you left something unplugged, or you have the spark plug wires switched
That's what I concluded so I just got a small charger that fits the specs for this battery. Do I charge the battery with the cell caps in or out?
Do you think the spark plugs had something to do with the battery dying? These are exactly the plugs that were installed a year ago during the bike's 6500 mile check by a Ducati dealership. I got them from Autozone and their system didn't find Champion plugs for it, but then again it suggested the wrong plugs anyway. I could go back in there with the exact part number and maybe they'll find them. Could it simply be because I hadn't ridden the bike for a couple weeks? Or perhaps just a coincidence and the battery was already dying causing all my problems to begin with? The electrolyte level was low until I just topped it off. Hopefully this fixes it, but I gotta figure out if the cell caps should stay on or not.
If you crank the bike long enough you will run down the battery. On anything. Crank long enough without allowing the starter to rest and you will need a starter too. If you want to determine if the battery is good, charge it up and get it load tested. If you use a trickle charger you can leave the caps on.
Yes, you can have many issues. The possibility is good it is something you did. Go back and check your work. Also check for spark after you solve the battery issue. Pull the spark plugs. Are they fouled? What color are they? Not sure? Post good photos.
NGK plugs of the proper heat range and design are just fine. At some point the NGKs or Champions got the OK from Ducati. From the owner's manual:
2006 M620
Spark plugs
Make:
CHAMPION
Type:
RA 4 HC
Make:
NGK
Type:
DCPR8E
2003 M1000
Spark plugs
Make:
CHAMPION / NGK
Type:
RA 6 HC / DCPR8E
Not only that, as you can see from the above, the same NGK covers a wider heat range. Most of us have been running NGKs for years without problem. And yes, many Ducati dealerships were using them for years before getting Ducati's blessings
Battery charged last night, tested at Autozone this morning and looked good. Bought the Champion spark plugs just in case since they're only $2 a piece. Reinstalled the battery and swapped the NGK's for the Champions. Got back to the engine trying to start but it still won't turn. Haven't been able to find a torque wrench that'll give me a proper reading that isn't $80+, so maybe they aren't set right? Seems like it should still start and problems would arise later. I'm puzzled since it went from half the engine starting consistently and reliably, to the full engine starting with a new plug, and finally to dead battery and no starting at all after less than 2 miles of riding. I forgot to bring my phone with me this morning so I didn't record anything, but I think I will so you can at least see/hear what I'm hearing.
Quote from: Saxofoto on July 23, 2012, 10:48:40 AMHaven't been able to find a torque wrench that'll give me a proper reading that isn't $80+, so maybe they aren't set right?
the torque should not affect the bike running or not. too much will break the spark plug, not enough will allow it to rattle loose.
you can however make a makeshift torque wrench if necessary, I've done it before. the torque setting is measure by force at a specific distance. ie: ft/lbs is a specific amount of force in weight in pounds, measure 1 foot away from the axis of rotation.
meaning you can: use a wratchet handle 1 foot or longer, and buy a spring scale with pound increments, with a useable range in what you are looking for. our plugs should be torqued to roughly 18ft/lbs, so you'd want a scale with a useable range of 0-30lbs or 0-40lbs. then hook the spring scale to the wratchet handle exactly 1 foot from the center of where the socket attaches, and tape it in place so it doesnt slide. pull on the spring scale to turn the wratchet handle to tighten the sparkplug. watch the scale, and the weight will increase when it starts tightening, and pull slowly and smoothly until the scale reads 18 pounds.
as you do this, put your thumb of the hand not pulling on the scale against the socket extension near the wratchet handle so it doesnt allow any sideways force on the socket trying to bend the sparkplug over, if you know what I mean
Quote from: Saxofoto on July 22, 2012, 09:15:30 AM
Ok, I'm seriously stumped again. I thought it was feasible that I was out of gas. Engine sounded like it was trying to start but just wouldn't turn over. I know I got the bike when it was low on fuel and as a rocked the bike back and forth I didn't hear any swoosh of liquid in the tank. So I put about a half a gallon of premium gasoline in there. As I've been trying to start it up, it sounds weaker and now all I hear is clicking (perhaps my spark plugs clicking). Looking at the Haynes guide indicates it could be many issues, none of which presented themselves until now. I feel like the most obvious thing would be something I just adjusted/fixed myself, a user error. But who knows? Any ideas?
Did you put gas in it?
Yes, as indicated by the very sentence you've highlighted. :) Am I missing something?
check my last post on page 3, I'm guessing you missed that one [thumbsup]
Quote from: Saxofoto on July 24, 2012, 08:31:44 AM
Yes, as indicated by the very sentence you've highlighted. :) Am I missing something?
I meant to say did you put more gas in it ;)
I didn't but I probably will after I've tested a few things I should test anyway, namely the resistance measures for the coils, both pickup and ignition.
Well, today I got to run through the critical resistance checks, thanks to the help of Motoxman, but unfortunately to no avail. The pickup coils, ignition coils - primary and secondary - and spark plug cables and boots all tested within spec. I was rooting for failure of the ignition coils or at least the cables (which, by the way, appear to be glued into the coils) so I could a) solve this problem and b) upgrade my ignition coils. So I'm back to square one, or worse, actually, because before I could at least start half the engine, plus my bike is stranded a mile away from my house/garage. Looking like tow trip to the dealer is inevitable. But I'll ask one more time for any suggestions now that I've run the resistance checks.
Quick recap: bike started like a champ when I got the bike a month ago (with no choke or throttle); one day I'm riding and it drops a cylinder; engine starts reliably but can't fire the vertical cylinder; I switch the spark plugs and the problem switched to the horizontal cylinder; I replace both spark plugs with the same NGK's that were in for the previous year and the bike fires up like it did when I first got it; I ride one mile down a straight road up to 35/40mph and something fails so I pull over and the bike stalls before I get to a stop; trying to restart it drained the battery; I recharge battery and put 2/3 gal prem gas in the tank; bike won't start at all, engine turns, ignition circuit tested for resistance with engine cold, fuses checked, got Champion spark plugs as well with no difference.
What's the next most likely culprit and/or the easiest thing to check myself before I have it towed?
What color were the plugs?
Take out the sparkplugs, connect them to the HT leads and rest them on some metal part. Crank the motor over with the starter and take a peek at the plug gaps. If there's no sparks happening you have ignition problems.
If you do see a spark at each plug pour a few mls. of petrol into each plug hole, replace the plugs and crank the motor. It should at least give a cough or even fire up. If the motor does fire up and then dies you have a fuel delivery problem.
Quote from: WTSDS on July 26, 2012, 02:46:51 AM
Take out the sparkplugs, connect them to the HT leads and rest them on some metal part. Crank the motor over with the starter and take a peek at the plug gaps. If there's no sparks happening you have ignition problems.
If you do see a spark at each plug pour a few mls. of petrol into each plug hole, replace the plugs and crank the motor. It should at least give a cough or even fire up. If the motor does fire up and then dies you have a fuel delivery problem.
I'm startimg to think that. That could have been an excellent first reply.
Dont give up yet.
I listened to your sound file. it sounds like its getting absolutely no spark, or absolutely no fuel. do what the above guy said to triple check it's actually getting spark. if it has spark on both plugs (which I'm assuming it will due to all the tests we went through), it must be having a serious fuel supply issue; either nowhere near enough fuel, or way too much fuel (flooding).
as for what the guy above asked in reference to what color the plugs are, part of that question is also: after cranking it to try to start it, take the plugs out and look at the tips. what color are they? are they wet or dry?
Ok. I tried these tests. Spark plugs looked like they were sparking. Tried the fuel test but didn't get it to start and I don't think I heard any "cough" either. Spark plugs appear dry after testing, and they are the same color as when they were new. My gut is leaning toward fuel supply as well after the resistance checks yesterday. When the plugs were out of the sockets, I did feel gusts of air coming out of each cylinder. Maybe it just needs more gas in the tank? If it was empty before, there's probably only 1/3 gal in there at the most (previous estimate was high). If I have a fuel issue, will it be harder to fix with more gas in the tank? While I think i can fix this, I leave town Saturday and get back Tuesday, and my diagnostic test is Wed, and I don't want to postpone that. Need to fix or tow the bike by tomorrow, basically.
Follow the fuel line down to the pump and disconnect it to see if there is enough gas to feed the pump.
If this bike has a vacuum petcock it too could be faulty even if there is gas in the tank.
Scratch that...retried the whole test and put a little more fuel in. Got it to 'cough' but it didn't start. Tried once more with choke engaged and it started weak at first, then revved really high so I gradually let out the choke until it held on, and I gave it a little throttle. Killed the engine, waited 5 min and just restarted instantly with no choke. Looking good for now but I spoke too soon last time I thought I was in the clear. Hopefully I can get it home now and maybe try some more testing before I leave town. No need to tow til Wed if at all.
Puts some gas in the tank! You can always drain it out into a container if needed. When the bike is cold/first start use the choke. I hope it is that simple for you.
reviving this old thread as it somewhat relates to my problem, the op and I have similar problems but my cylinder loss is intermittent, I had a bad coil in the past that would cut out when it got hot, on another bike, but it didnt have a pickup sensor to deal with, does the fact that it is intermittent narrow down the possibilities mention in this thread ? I to have a 99 m 750, I dont have a haynes manual yet (its on its way) but I do have a same year 900 service manual and I read that they are about the same, please advise thanx
Your problem could be a coil, ignition module or pick up. Diagnosis would be easy if the problem was not intermittent. Problem is, when everything is working all will test good, so you either need to duplicate the problem or diagnose on the road. easiest way to do this is swap the two easier suspect components one at a time and see if the problem switches cylinders. Pick ups no so easy, but if the other components check out good bring an ohmmeter. Each pick up should read 95-105 ohms.
Probably a pick up.
I guessing its heat related, when I started it a few minutes ago, its purred like a tiger, nice and cool (comparatively) right now, a couple of days ago on my first ride on her its was cooler as well and no problems, the then second ride gave me the problwems, it was much warmer then, I'm gonna ride her in the morning for 20 miles and again in the heat of the day for 20 miles and see what happens
I may have figured it out, I couldnt get the cylinder to quit firing again but I now know how it got so hot, the other day it was warm up here (around 92) . I keep my bike in my shop which is one of those steel arch buildings, and if any of you have one of these building you know how hot they get in the summer. I'm guessing it was at least 100 to 102 in there and the bike immediately dropped a cylinder on startup, since I only had the bike a couple of days I wasnt sure. After I got one the road I knew for sure but suddenly it kicked back in. The air cooled it down enough. Then at a light it dropped again. Back up to speed, in the wind, and full power again. So after some research I read about the pick up sensor temporarily failing as the case heats up and expands. I dont fully trust the source of this info but it sounds possible. Any inputs on this will be appreciated. I dont know when it will be warm enough to replicate the issue as it gonna be in the upper 70's and lower 80's for a couple of weeks so I doubt it will get that hot in my shop.
A pick up or any winding such as an ignition coil can open at a specific temperature causing a temporary open circuit. Even a wire can do that.
yea I'm aware of potential coil issues as well, had it happen on and old kaw, will just have to chase it [bang]
Check your spark plug boots for cracking. I remember one would run fine until it reached temp (like you could ride it a few miles then it dropped a cylinder) the, a crack in the plug boot expanded enough that the plug grounded out and the bike dropped a cylinder.
JM
they (THE PLUG CAPS) look good, I should clarify, when I said the case expands with heat I meant the "engine" case expands causing the pickup sensor to temporarily FAIL
Usually the pick up windings themselves open under heat. Rarely, but not so rare on some older BMws there could be a break in the wire. When the insulation is tight the wire has contact. Insulation gets warm, wire opens. Case expansion is not the cause, a failed part is.
thanx howie, for the info, like I said the source was suspect, same end result however, now the trick is to replicate the that heat and test it quick enough before it cools off
ok well that theory went down the tubse, today was cool and it dropped one, no rhyme or reason, reversed plug wires on the road and the bike wouldnt even start, changed back a I'm off, 95 % of the ride it purred like a tiger, bike's got some giddyup, so I can eliminate what based on today????
In this case of the pick ups hot refers to engine temperature. Obviously ambient temperature affects engine temperature. I had a pick up fail in my bike once. After removing them I tested them by heating them in water. The bad one would open at 190ish (don't really recall) o F. This was after swapping modules on the road and and testing coil resistance on the road. Do not reverse plug wires, swap components. Oh, I failed to mention one suspect component, A Journeyman said, spark plug cap. There is a resister in it that can open when hot.
Coil specs:
small terminal to small terminal 4.5 ohms + 10%
one probe on ground, one on the spark plug wire 13.5K ohms + 20%
spark plug cap 5K ohms + 15%
You could also bench test these components using a heat lamp and thermometer with maybe a little vibration.
thanx will do
ok problem solved I think, I decided to swap coils. Apparantly one of the wires from the CDI was loose, there are two on each coil one larger and one smaller. When I took one of the coils off the smaller wires kinda fell off. I went ahead with the swap and when reattaching the wires I noticed that it was really difficult to get the smaller one back on, when I got it on I double check and it hadnt gone into the metal clip, it lodged between the plastic case and the metal clip, I finally got it properly inserted when it hit me, someone, had not properly inserted it in the first place and thats why it fell out so easy upon removal of the first coil, so thats it
Quote from: Saxofoto on July 21, 2012, 09:35:01 PM
NGK DCPR8E #4339 I see also #4179 here: http://sparkplugs.com/results_cross.asp?pid=dcpr8e&x=0&y=0 (http://sparkplugs.com/results_cross.asp?pid=dcpr8e&x=0&y=0)
Only difference I can find there is solid vs removable terminal nut. I know the part # is correct as it's on the dealership's maintenance record from 1 year/4000 miles ago. I used their application link and found our bike: http://sparkplugs.com/results_appOther.asp?otherMotiveID=224608&mfid=1 (http://sparkplugs.com/results_appOther.asp?otherMotiveID=224608&mfid=1)
Seem like the right ones. I'll also get a beam torque wrench tomorrow to makes sure they are fit properly. DAMN! So close...
Not to back track too much, but I'm a little OCD when it comes to links. Those links aren't working anymore, but I went to the liberty of finding replacement links since I'm nice like that. (Plus I was looking up that plug anyways) ;)
(1) http://www.sparkplugs.com/SearchResults.aspx?kw=DCPR8E (http://www.sparkplugs.com/SearchResults.aspx?kw=DCPR8E)
(2) http://www.sparkplugs.com/product.aspx?zpid=9705 (http://www.sparkplugs.com/product.aspx?zpid=9705)