Hi all,
I may have made a [bang]. I am replacing my timing belts (12,000 miles) and have removed the old ones.
I am in the process of installing the new ones and am having an issue with the horizontal pulley alignment.
I have successfully aligned the vertical pulley with the dot on the pulley and the dot on the cover. I have also aligned the drive pulley with the mark on the crank case. When it comes to the horizontal pulley, there is a dot on the pulley but NO dot in the case..anywhere...
I'm not sure where to align the horizontal pulley as there is no mark on the cover....Some videos show to align the pulley to the top of the case. Unfortunately, the cover on my particular bike has no marks, cut outs, holes, or any other distinct features. It is a seamless round shape with no markings or indentations anywhere...I have since moved the pulley from the original position it was in before i started so im a little stuck.
Anybody have any ideas as to what I should align the horizontal pulley with?
Thanks!
I just did mine and I took pics and marked the position before I removed the belts. I couldn't find any marks on the covers either.
Horizontal cylinder
The lower mark on the cover is for the hole in cam pulley
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff68/007wabbit/2aa83fb8.jpg)
Vertical
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff68/007wabbit/f45e3fdf.jpg)
Crank
Mark on pulley aligned with notch in clutch side case.
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff68/007wabbit/c7165bf5.jpg)
You could try counting the number of teeth on the vertical cylinder.
Hope that helps but this is the first time I did a belt and valve job on my 696 so maybe some one else could chime in.
DON'T do anything until you find out from someone who knows exactly where the alignments are, it will be costly otherwise.
I haven't touched a 696 yet - my son has one so eventually I'll end up delving into his whether I want to or not :-), but I suspect the alignments are the same as the M900.
I wouldn't be going from the holes as shown in DucatiSTi's pics, you need to align the markings on the actual pulleys which don't show up well in those pics. Obviously his pre-removal marks are correct for his motor but I suspect the little holes he has used could be in a different position in other motors.
There's stuff in the Tutorials section of DMF which show how it's done and the idea is to first get the central pulley lined up with the marking on the case, then line up the horizontal pulley's dot, then the vertical.
If you have turned the crank while the belts are off you will need to go back to basics, I'd get a degree wheel mounted onto the crank ,get the cams positioned so all valves are closed, work out where the TDC for each piston is and go from there.
i did one last week, no marks that i could see either. not sure what they're thinking is. well, they're thinking you pull the little screw at the lh side of the head in the cap and put the cam locating screw in there and use that to position the cam. you need a m8 screw with a 6mm point on it from memory.
Thanks for the heads up...mental note, align whatever I can find, then make my own alignment marks BEFORE pulling the belts. [thumbsup]
that's what i did.
I think what i have found in my research is that every bike is different and every bike will have different marks on the covers...
My and my owl eyes noticed the faintest red mark on the horizontal pulley cover and i aligned the horizontal pulley dot with that mark...
I crossed my fingers and the started her up and she was running and idling just fine so I am guessing that mark was correct...
So here is the million dollar question...If i didnt line up the pulley correctly, would the engine run? What type of result would I expect to see if it wasn't lined up correctly? Would it run or would it refuse to start? What would happen if i didn't line them up correctly but the engine still runs?
TIA!
UPDATE:
I think i found the way to perform the alignment without using the dots...there is a service tool that you use to engage the slot on the cam. This ensures the pulley is positioned correctly regardless of where the dots are...
This part i can do...what i wanted to confirm was this:
Does the dot on the drive pulley always align correctly with the mark on the crank case? If so, i can get the vertical and horizontal pulley aligned using the above method..just wanted to make sure that i can safely align the drive pulley with the dot on the crank case...
TIA!
Do a search for "bent valves " - it's what I was trying to warn you about.
If the cams aren't aligned properly the piston/s can hit the valves, and cause expensive damage.
Glad you got it right.
Thanks for the reply...
I'm still somewhat confused about my current setup...Even though I know how to align them correctly now, I have not been home yet to actually do the work...The current setup on my bike is what I thought was marks on the cover...
Did i just "luck" out with the horizontal pulley alignment? If i didn't align the horizontal pulley correctly, would the engine still run? Would I hear the piston hitting the valve? I will make sure to check the valves when i get home but i know the engine ran fine, idle'd fine, and i didnt hear any clanking...What would I expect to see out of the engine or hear if the horizontal pulley was not aligned correctly? I'm starting to freak out a little bit and will verify my valves are ok when i get home but I know the engine worked, idled fine, and i didnt hear any clanking...Would this be the behavior i would expect if the pulley was no aligned?
there is a tool for locking the crank at horizontal tdc. there are the pins that lock the cams. you lock it all up, loosen the pulley half screws to allow the cam pullies to float on the cams, fit and tension the belts, tighten the pulley half screws and remove the locking tools.
if the cam is one tooth advance it will bend the inlet valve. no question. if it is retarded it will run like crap if at all (i did that on a sport 1000, marks were close to half off either way. i did the lock it all up and check thing to fix it).
the mark on the drive pulley aligns with the line on the cases at horiz tdc firing. somebody may have put marks on your heads previously. easiest way to do it.
** UPDATE - FINAL **
So i got home and prayed to the bike gods that I didn't mess anything up. I must be the luckiest mofo alive because the good news is that I did everything correctly...the bad news is that it was just dumb luck...Turns out i had the horizontal pulley exactly where it should have been...That faint mark on the cover was in fact the alignment mark but just got rubbed away after multiple years. I have no idea why all of the tutorials and videos out there reference these stupid marks on the cover when securing the cam is the only sure fire way to do it...
I took off the timing belts and valve covers for both the vertical and horizontal. I checked the valves and they all looked good...within clearance and in perfect shape...I then started scratch from the very beginning. This is the procedure i followed...This was used in conjunction with the workshop manual so it may not be 100% complete...Use it as a guide but not a comprehensive timing belt service...
1) Remove both spark plugs
2) Remove current timing belts
3) Put the bike in the highest gear possible
4) Align the drive shaft mark with the mark on the crank case (This is the only mark you will align)
5) Unscrew the bolt on both the vertical and horizontal cam covers to allow access to secure the cam.
6) You're supposed to use the Ducati service tool to secure the drive shaft so it doesn't move but i didn't have one and it was pretty tight as is and it never moved so i skipped this part.
7) You're also supposed to use the Ducati service tool to secure the cams but i didn't have one and my research of the components led me to believe you don't really need one and a tight fitting drill bit did the job quite well.
8) With the drive shaft aligned with the mark on the crank case, put the solid part of the drill bit into the access hole to secure the cam on the vertical cylinder. Rotate the pulley on the vertical cylinder until the drill bit engages the hole in the cam. The pulley should lock and you should not be able to rotate it anymore...
9) Repeat step 8 with the horizontal cylinder by using another same size drill bit and engaging the slot on the cam and securing the horizontal pulley in place.
10) With both pulleys secured and the drive shaft aligned with the crank case mark, install and tension the new timing belts
11) Replace the cam access bolts on both cylinders and re-assemble the bike.
[thumbsup]
The only question i still have remaining is why does the drive shaft need to be secured? It's pretty tight and never moves but the workshop manual calls for inserting the service tool to prevent the driveshaft from moving....It never moves in the first place...Any ideas?
Is it worth picking up any of the Ducati tools for this? I'll be doing it probably this coming winter or next spring?
No Ducati or special tools needed. I would recommend watching Chris' how to video Ducatitech.com: Ducati 749/999 Timing Belt Change Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNsC8Mn6big#) on this subject a couple of times to familiarize yourself. He has clips for both, single and dual valves. FOLLOW the Chris' instruction and you will be fine.
I replaced my 07 S4RS' belts recently and the job was much easier than I anticipated. I also replaced my 2010 696's belts last year; also a piece of cake.
That video was not for the 696 but it may help someone out there...The problem with the 2 Valve 696 is that there is really only 1 video out there that is tailored to the 696 and it shows to use those stupid marks when securing the cam is the only and best way to guarantee 100% alignment. No ducati tools are required as the drill bit method works well....I would recommend to use the 696 video as a good guide but DO NOT use the marks...secure the cam...you will save yourself alot of $$$ as stated above with the possibility of bending your valves...
LSD - does the 696 video show how/where you're securing the cam with a drill bit?
If not, does anyone have a photo or sketch?
Just trying to line my proverbial "ducs" in a row before tackling this... :D
No the video does not show the securing of the cam...It shows how to line up the marks (not the best way in my opinion)...
Below i have some pics that may help you out in securing the cams...
The pics are referenced from http://www.ricix.net/Ducati/usa/GT1000_07_N_4B9_00.64.1.html (http://www.ricix.net/Ducati/usa/GT1000_07_N_4B9_00.64.1.html)
This image shows the location of where the access bolt is to insert the cam securing tool or the drill bit
(http://www.ricix.net/Ducati/images/GT1000_07_N_4B9_00.64.1.46.jpg)
This shows an exploded view of the cam and the hole on the cam in which the tool or drill bit locks into it...Note (This will not be visible in a normal change...there is no need to remove the entire cam cover) This was just for illustration purposes only...
(http://www.ricix.net/Ducati/images/GT1000_07_N_4B9_00.64.1.47.jpg)
[thumbsup]
THANKS!
i'd say the 696 is unique in not having any marks to align the cams on the cam pulley surrounds. first one i've seen in 18 years that doesn't. all the other previous models do. well, except 998 on 4v. they don't have any. and they moved the T shaped groove in the end of the vertical cams on the 1198 to both aligning at horiz tdc, just to confuse us.
i always mark before removal. well, i try to look for marks and mark if required.
moto guzzi daytona don't have marks either, i found rather unexpectedly. and no locking or positioning features. and infinitely variable vernier style pullies that you can use to set the timing again once you've come to the admission that there is only one way to unmake the beast with two backs the make the beast with two backs up and that's make tools as required and then to check and reset the cam timing. takes a few hours to fix that one. one of those "wish i'd paid more attention about 10 minutes ago" days.
Rather than create a new thread, I had a few questions related to accessing the timing belt covers.
How do you access the vertical timing belt cover bolt that sits right behind the trellis frame? Do you just use an allen wrench? How do you torque it to 10 N-m?
What is the best way of removing the O2 sensor on the horizontal exhaust pipe?
Is there supposed to be an exhaust gasket/seal at the horizontal cylinder exhaust port (where the pipe flange meets the head)?
Would a smartphone app (like gstrings tuner) work as well as the frequency-counter program that CA Cycleworks recommends for checking the tension of the belts?
About the O2 sensor, I unbolted the header and loosened the connection to the mid pipe. This gave me enough room to remove the veridical belt cover. With the cover removed, you can remove the header with the O2 sensor attached by disconnecting it's wire and rotating the pipe so that the sensor is on the bottom.
All I need now is the cam-locking tool. I put the order in 3 weeks ago!
The cam locking tool isn't really necessary.
i still don't get where locking tool goes?
the cam locking tool goes into the cam from the lh side of the head, through the central screw hole.
you only need to do that if you are undoing the little pulley half screws in conjunction with locking the crank. this ensures the cam timing will be as inaccurate as the original design intended.
most people just remove the old belts and fit new ones.