So I posted a while ago that I thought I bent a valve when I ran the bike with messed up timing. Well, I didn't; I instead broke a rocker arm.
I need some opinions:
-actually try to replace all the broken pieces (at least one rocker arm)
-buy a used head
-????
help!!!
If replacing the entire head is the choice option, where might I get one? I don't see many on ebay...
Also, which cylinder heads cross-fit?
I believe the 800SS will (being the SAME engine)
What about others?
do you have the head off?
are you absolutely sure none of the valves got bent?
if the valves and valve seats are ok, I'd just replace the broken bits
I got the head partially off and took the head covers off to get a good look. The valves and guides look okay, though I'll likely check them again soon after it stops raining.
So I guess no, I'm not entirely sure the valves aren't bent... :-\
The cylinder doesn't have any obvious imperfections either, so I may be okay there.
If anybody has any leads on a horizontal cylinder head...:)
SOOOOOOOOOOOO FRUSTRATINGGGG GYAAAHHHH
Sorry... :P
If this were my bike, I'd pull the head and do a full disassembly. It's the only way to be sure nothing is bent.
Valves need to come out, be put into v-blocks with a dial indicator on the end of the stem or something similar. If the force was enough to break a rocker arm, I'd guess it was enough to tweak a valve. A little bend will do a lot of damage to the guide over a few hundred miles...
That said, before I pulled the heads I'd do a cylinder leakage test on both cylinders. This will help you ensure the pistons aren't cracked if the valves did infact hit them - otherwise the magnaflux type crack-finding is in order for the pistons.
Does anyone know what heads are compatible with the S2R 800? I am pretty sure the SS 800 heads work, and am looking for everything else that might. I think the 620 heads bolt up, but have smaller valves or something. Any info is greatly appreciated.
A cylinder leakage test will tell you all you need to know.
If it were me, I'd replace the head with a used one
Check the valves first, slap it on and ride
I picked up a pair of 748 heads for $300... not bad
i feel your pain. I cant know for sure, but i suspect at least 1 or 2 bent valves from my recent debacle. Buying a head is nice and dandy, but you can get all 4 valves repalced with kibble whties and guides for around $600 bucks and get a better running engine.
IME, if you've broken a rocker arm due to valve/piston conflict, your chance of no bent valves is zero.
A bent valve usually cracks the guide.
Pull that head off to assess the damage in the head, and also what condition the piston is in.
695 and 800 have the same valves and cams.
Not 100% sure the heads are identical, but I suspect so.
Also, 800s are one of the engines built with both 8mm and, later, 7mm valve guides. What year is your 800? Make sure you buy the right stuff!
It's a 2006 S2R 800.
Are the KW valves good? I looked at them but have read mixed reviews. If they're adequate, I may just redo the valvetrain and jump on it. I can get the rocker arm(s) for ~125/pop.
Darn...just when I was beginning to think an S4 engine was the only viable option...XD
They are better than stock, but there are better options. Theres a shop if i can find their name, that makes custom guides matched to valves so you get the best fitting possible, and if u just cut the seat good you should get a great seal and itll be better than stock for sure.
Found a full set of rocker arms (8 pcs) on ebay for ~$150, so I was all over that. I'm going with KW valves in the next few days unless someone has a suggestion otherwise!
I don't know for sure if any but the one rocker arm I saw is bent, but I figure having a whole set for about the price of one won't hurt anything.
I may also just buy both valves/guides because I got this set so darn cheap.
So, any FHE with KibbleWhite valves/guides?
And for those who know: If I get used rockers, new valves/guides, can I just lap the valves in, set the clearances/etc and call it good? Is that about how it goes? Or is there some other voodoo involved?
If you get new guides put in, the seats must be re-cut to match the new guide position.
depending on which motor you have, it might be cheaper to buy a new motor 900 and 695/620 motors are pretty cheap.
Quote from: He Man on August 10, 2012, 12:05:13 PM
They are better than stock, but there are better options. Theres a shop if i can find their name, that makes custom guides matched to valves so you get the best fitting possible, and if u just cut the seat good you should get a great seal and itll be better than stock for sure.
My understanding is that the proper fit between guide and valve (and between valve and seat) are accomplished by reaming and honing.
http://ladywrench.net/projects/the-top-end-reaming-and-honing-valve-guides (http://ladywrench.net/projects/the-top-end-reaming-and-honing-valve-guides)
The idea is that you first ream the head so the hole for the guide is accurately round and 2 thou under the size of your guides. Then when you've pressed the guides in, the inside of the guides will have closed up a little making for a tight fit on the valve stem. You need to ream and hone this to size accurately, and then cut the valve seat to match.
I can't think of a way anyone could make a valve guide that's a good fit without the reaming and honing.
yes that is how i understand it to work as well, but i figure if you have a guide that is desinged to be honed so that it is as true as possible to the valve stem, you wont have issues with guide that necks in the middle but flares in the end.
Valve guides need to be reamed to proper diameter after installation. After reaming the center will be slightly different than it was with the original guide so the seat must be cut to correct for this with proper equipment. Usually the seat will need to be topped and throated to attain correct seat width and contact area.
So, just to clarify, these procedures (reaming, honing, etc.) are all things done when one buys new valves and guides?
It would seem intuitive that cutting/honing would be necessary if only one or the other is replaced. Perhaps I misjudge the precision of the pieces involved.
Also it would make sense to ask if this is something a poor DIYer could do. From the mention of equipment it would seem not.
As Howie said, if the guide is replaced, the seat needs to be re-cut to align it with the position of the new guide.
It's marginal to then install a used valve into this new guide and seat.
Best to fit a new valve as well.
It's OK to fit a used valve that's been re-cut, as long as the shank isn't too worn.
If the guide is *not* replaced:
You can fit a new valve.
Best to get the seat re-cut to mate with that new valve.
Looking at the $/labor standpoint:
By the time you've got the head off, and all the valve gear out, and bought some new parts....
The cost of getting the machine work done (to get the most out of what you've already spent) is small.
From a DIY standpoint:
Buying all of the equipment necessary to install, ream, and hone the guides, and then properly cut the seats, is quite a bit more expensive than paying the local cylinder head shop to do it.
But that shouldn't stop you from doing it if you want to.
Check out suzyj's thread, lots of info there:
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=56614.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=56614.0)
FYI, I'd consider suzyj in the top 1% of DIY'ers.
Quote from: He Man on August 18, 2012, 10:24:15 PM
yes that is how i understand it to work as well, but i figure if you have a guide that is desinged to be honed so that it is as true as possible to the valve stem, you wont have issues with guide that necks in the middle but flares in the end.
My shiny new Kibblewhite guides have an ID of 6.98mm, before being fitted. The valves won't physically fit without reaming.
Quote from: Speeddog on August 20, 2012, 09:57:19 AM
FYI, I'd consider suzyj in the top 1% of DIY'ers.
Crawler. ;D
Can we see the broken rocker?
Per request, for your viewing pleasure at my expense:
(http://i46.tinypic.com/fxgq6q.jpg)
Such a sad sight...
Quote from: uberranger on August 21, 2012, 01:09:42 PM
Per request, for your viewing pleasure at my expense:
(http://i46.tinypic.com/fxgq6q.jpg)
Such a sad sight...
That'll buff out! [cheeky]
Yeah...about that [roll]
So anyway, I finally got the horizontal head off (been really busy moving and such). After closer and more thorough inspection, the rocker arm is the only thing obviously broken. It seems silly to hope that the corresponding valve could be alright, but I believe the other valve/rocker arm set to be fine.
With that in mind I suppose I'll order a KW valve and guide and have a friend who works in a machine shop do the work getting everything trued up. I will then adjust the valves (something I may have to ask about in another thread) and ride off into the sunset- hopefully.
Are there any flaws with this course of action, or any steps left out?
I've been riding my dad's XT350 and really really really want my bike to be running.
Now.
Quote from: suzyj on August 20, 2012, 11:34:52 PM
My shiny new Kibblewhite guides have an ID of 6.98mm, before being fitted. The valves won't physically fit without reaming.
KB states that they are all oversized to allow you to fully ream out the whole valve guide. to my understanding the stock OEM guides arent built to a tight of standard as this so you get a bottle neck effect where the tip and top of the valve guide might be looser than perfect, and the middle of the guide is perfect. This is what KB told me on a chat when i was trying to decided between foxwoodperformance and KBs.
of course all that is out the window since im not longer installing either.
The actual cost of machining both heads is roughly $300 from the calls ive made (NYC pricing). the real cost comes in reinstalling the valve components. Its really not worht it because the unique tools you need are essentially one time use since you probably wont be digging into the heads all that often.
if your going to remove one head and swap teh guides, it might just be worth while to do both heads.
To clarify, I'm not just going to replace the guide and hope the valve is ok. If the rocker arm is broken, the valve almost must be bent.
Ok, so here's my current status and revelations in case it might benefit someone:
Valves are in fact NOT damaged...I don't understand this. The carbon deposits, upon further inspection, are not disturbed (same for the piston) and the valve slide open/springs shut with no resistance. It also will hold water (important?)
I now believe I bought the bike with a broken rocker arm. I don't know how it could've happened though. Any thoughts?? One of the guys at Ducati Indianapolis said the same kind of thing happened to him in the vertical head because he didn't let the oil circulate up there before taking off (cold start).
Anywho, I now just have to replace the rocker arm (of which I have a full set). The problem is getting the darn shaft out. You need a draw-bolt type thing (or the special ducati tool, or one of the cheaper knockoffs). I'm currently waiting on a machinist buddy of mine to look it over.
Another update, in case anyone is listening.
The valve was bent...I was too excited by the fact that I couldn't see anything immediately. The intake (larger of the two) valve was bent ever so slightly, but enough that the local guru couldn't just grind it down to fit. He said it would probably run ok, but leak some oil, blah blah blah...so I ordered a KW valve as per his recommendations. It should be in by the end of the week, along with some new half-rings (one of which shattered during this whole debacle).
So, barring exigent circumstances, I should be one Duck happier in a week or so.
:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Thankfully, last update on this, if there is anyone interested.
I took the head and new valve to the aforementioned guru, and he cut/honed/voodoo'd the valve into the head all good. I then froze the rocker arm shaft, put the rocker arm/valve/shims all back in, checked the valve clearances (within spec...?!...) and put it back on the bike.
After setting the timing and waiting on a battery from a buddy as mine was dead, I fired it up and it sounded wonderful. Everything seems to be alright (except that it was loud as hell because the exhaust wasn't attached all the way)
So...moral of the story is set your timing correctly.