I saw this in the 696 appreciation thread, and being completely ignorant about even the most basic vehicular mechanics, I decided to ask here.
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
Is this a good idea at all? When I purchase my monster, I plan on following the prescribed break-in methods, unless anyone with lots of mechanical expertise can convince me otherwise.
ah... that guy... [popcorn]
I, for one, trust the mfr's break-in routine. I'd like to think that the folks who built my bike know what to do w/it...
Ive hear of the "throttle it like its 1999" approach, my friend did it on his 572cid Chevelle drag car and it worked great. I believe race bikes are broken in the same way. Another thing that doenst make sense to me is, Ducati facotry dynos all the engines prior to install them, and they will warm the enigne up, run it to redline for a few runs and make sure its making the right power. Thats already breaking hte factory rules. So what gives?
now if you scroll down to where it says
"Here are some popular engine tuning concepts in which the truth is
quite the opposite of what is commonly thought:"
you get the following list
- Bigger Ports
- Polishing The Ports
- Ignition Advancers
- Flatslide Carburetors
- Fuel Injection Tuning
- Cam Timing
- Jetting
So, you can pretty much say that this guy is retarded. but his method *which really isnt even his own, is something people have done, but i cant tell you if it works or not, becasue im not rich enough to own a new ducati. My friends 572 makes something like 800hp on pump and 1000 on race gas, and never gets babied and its in tip top condition. I have another friend who rode it hard to break in his new 3.8L Supercharged Tbird Supercoupe engine, and that thing was in tiptop shape (engine wise atleast)
well, yes, engine testing is one thing, but they're not running it at WOT for hundreds of miles on end...
and race motors get rebuilt... how often?
Quote from: teddy037.2 on June 27, 2008, 08:20:58 PM
well, yes, engine testing is one thing, but they're not running it at WOT for hundreds of miles on end...
The process doesn't state to run it WOT for hundreds of miles on end.
"
Then, using 4th gear:
Do Three 1/2 Throttle dyno runs from
40% - 60% of your engine's max rpm
Let it Cool Down For About 15 Minutes
Do Three 3/4 Throttle dyno runs from
40% - 80% of your engine's max rpm
Let it Cool Down For About 15 Minutes
Do Three Full Throttle dyno runs from
30% - 100% of your engine's max rpm
Let it Cool Down For About 15 Minutes
Go For It !! "
And honestly, you could apply the exact same stress on your engine by accident when you first get your bike.
Quote from: teddy037.2 on June 27, 2008, 08:20:58 PM
and race motors get rebuilt... how often?
Race motors get rebuilt after every race, but I can't comment on how often they have to "break in the engine" after they rebuild it and replace xxx parts.
Again, it is a controversial topic, and I'm not even close to anything knowledgeable on it since i've never done it, but I knew 2 guys who did it and their engine is running fine. Thats the extent of my knowledge on this topic. HOWEVER if the OP does decide to do it, you let us know how it goes! [moto]
point taken... and I admit, what I was typing was.. more than a bit of exaggeration... but the occasional new engine over-rev on the street is nothing compared to "three full throttle runs from 30-100% of max rpm." this dude's method reminds me of that youtube clip of the guy running in his Ti header-back exhaust to get that cool color on his pipes.
controversial? yes. I can't argue that. and I am far from knowledgable in this respect... I'm a fabricator, not an engine builder/racer... ;)
I didn't think 30-100% was that bad. If max rpm is 9000, and during break in, you're not supposed to exceed 6K, that right there is almost 70% of the max rpm. Just a thought... [roll]
IMO, that procedure is the best for a hand built blueprinted engine. Production engines are less perfect. The most important condition to avoid on break in is constant throttle constant load. In other words, avoid the slab. On carbie engines avoid full throttle also.
I follow the break procedure within reason, I change the revs all the time, so no long runs at a set rev, Don't let the bike sit in traffic running very hot (Air cooled) Give a the engine a decent rev from time to time, nothing silly. Best thing to do I find is find a decent mountain range and ride up and down that a number of times.
And I always change the oil and filter after about 500KM's (about 300 miles) Maybe that's being a bit cautious.
Done that on 5 different bikes now and they have all run very well.
Quote from: Adamm3406 on June 28, 2008, 01:59:29 AM
I didn't think 30-100% was that bad. If max rpm is 9000, and during break in, you're not supposed to exceed 6K, that right there is almost 70% of the max rpm. Just a thought... [roll]
...and is almost 70% of the max rpm=100% of the max rpm? you're still dealing with an
additional 3000 rpm, assuming your redline is 9k.
just a thought. [roll]
<engineer>
The man has no data to back up his claims. None.
He'll tell you it'll work better on any given engine but I'd stake serious coin that at no point has he ever rebuilt two identical engines, then broke one in the traditional way and the other with his method, then checked their health at intervals over the years/mileage/use to see how each one survived. He has pictures of this...but did he do it? No. Was it done in a controlled environment? Recorded? Documented in any way that doesn't include a picture on a website?
No testing, no data, he just happens to say it works. What are his credentials again? Oh look....none.
Every engineer at every major manufacturer somehow knows less than this idiot. Keep in mind some of these engineers work at places like oh, Honda, Toyota...manufacturers who are 1) known for reliability and long engine life and 2) who have a huge selling point based on the previous. Does anyone *really* think they all just teamed up to have people break in their motors in the wrong way because it would somehow make them look good if their cars lasted a short amount of time? How about if they made less power?
This guy is an idiot. Absolute nutter. He can't prove shit about a damn thing he says. I would not listen to him.
</engineer>
Quote from: someguy on June 29, 2008, 08:22:07 PM
<engineer>
The man has no data to back up his claims. None.
He'll tell you it'll work better on any given engine but I'd stake serious coin that at no point has he ever rebuilt two identical engines, then broke one in the traditional way and the other with his method, then checked their health at intervals over the years/mileage/use to see how each one survived. He has pictures of this...but did he do it? No. Was it done in a controlled environment? Recorded? Documented in any way that doesn't include a picture on a website?
No testing, no data, he just happens to say it works. What are his credentials again? Oh look....none.
Every engineer at every major manufacturer somehow knows less than this idiot. Keep in mind some of these engineers work at places like oh, Honda, Toyota...manufacturers who are 1) known for reliability and long engine life and 2) who have a huge selling point based on the previous. Does anyone *really* think they all just teamed up to have people break in their motors in the wrong way because it would somehow make them look good if their cars lasted a short amount of time? How about if they made less power?
This guy is an idiot. Absolute nutter. He can't prove shit about a damn thing he says. I would not listen to him.
</engineer>
<old guy>
I also have no proof...
I believe that nutter makes some sense
I also feel the manufacturing engineers are being ultra conservative with their recommendations...there was a lawyer looking over their shoulder when they were writing them...shocking. ;D
The biggest problem with manufacturer recs is that people never run the engines hard enough..meaning enough throttle..to
ever seat the rings. You can use lot's of throttle and not exceed rpm limits, and that is what the nutter is trying to say.
</old guy>
Quote from: ducpainter on June 30, 2008, 04:57:36 AM
<old guy>
I also have no proof...
I believe that nutter makes some sense
I also feel the manufacturing engineers are being ultra conservative with their recommendations...there was a lawyer looking over their shoulder when they were writing them...shocking. ;D
The biggest problem with manufacturer recs is that people never run the engines hard enough..meaning enough throttle..to ever seat the rings. You can use lot's of throttle and not exceed rpm limits, and that is what the nutter is trying to say.
</old guy>
[thumbsup]
the last part is the clincher.
i broke my r1 in "hard" in a similar manner to what he describes. not only was it the most powerful stock r1 measured on the most commonly used dyno in dallas, it also didn't burn oil... and my buddy's r1s (to the letter factory breakin) were
notorious for drinking oil.
so yeah, it's anecdotal and not very scientific, but i seemed to get favorable results and i'll continue to break in my bikes in that way
Of all the engines I have rebuilt, car engines not bike engines, the best are the ones that are driven hard after a 20 or 30 minute warm up. There are many different schools of thought on this. I always tell my customers to just drive the car normally as they would drive any other car. Don't take it to redline every shift but also don't just hold it at a constant RPM. For a bike I would say a lot of backroads with plenty of twisties and different engine loads and speeds. This is just my professional opinion. I don't have any hard data so you can take it as you like.
Seating the rings isn't really an issue with nikasil cylinders, unless you break them in dry like the BMW Airhead guys do - and they deal with high-mileage engines.
Traditional "breaking in" of an engine was more concerned with relieving the thermal/mechanical stresses in the pistons so they didn't go out of round. However, manufacturing processes (even Ducati's processes) have improved so much over the years that pistons don't really need to be annealed in the engines anymore, but the break-in procedures of the 70s live on.
However, this is not to say that breaking an engine in hard and putting it to bed hot is going to give you more power and longer life. The power part is pretty much fixed by the engine configuration. The longer life part is often the luck of the draw.
Run it like you stole it if you want, just don't put it to bed hot.
Don't ever put an engine to bed hot.
whats bed hot?
Quote from: He Man on July 10, 2008, 08:50:23 AM
whats bed hot?
Putting an engine to be hot means to shut it down at the end of an acceleration without giving it a chance to cool down a bit. Pistons, valves, and cylinder heads (especially air-cooled) undergo a lot of thermal stress when operating at high energy output. What we're saying is that you don't chop the throttle from WOT and shut the engine down without giving it a minute or two to cool down; preferably while the bike is moving.
Quote from: porschaholic on July 02, 2008, 03:50:43 PMI always tell my customers to just drive the car normally as they would drive any other car. Don't take it to redline every shift
You're not making sense: do I drive it as I would any other car, or do I avoid taking it to redline every shift? I can't do both! [evil]
My S4R went straight from the showroom to the Dyno, where it was run up in a similar sequenced manner, it made 113HP, a strip down after 6,000 mile showed no excesive wear or damage.
Kevin Cameron wrote a good article on break in and stressed the requirement for temperature cycling.
I just bought an '07 S2R 800 with 137 miles on it and am bringing her home in a couple of weeks. The dude that sold it to me bought it at the end of fall '07 and didn't ride it all summer because he was strapped for cash (having bought a 2nd house around the same time and not being able to sell the first) and wanted to retain some resale value for the bike. So I don't think it is nearly broken in at all. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to break it in since it's been sitting idle for so long? Is there anything I should be aware of or should look out for? I've got a 6-8 weeks max to do it before winter hits as I am in Canada, and will have to store the bike for 5 months. Should I get 600 miles out of her and change the oil before I put her away? Thanks, Donzo.
Um, just do a quick over look over her. finger bang her all over the place, let her idle for 5-10mins to make sure there are no leaks then good to go. Do you think you can put on 600 miles in 6 weeks? If so, let her rip. up to you on how you want to break her in, but id personally go with what was posted on this threads original post. warm her up and let her rip, keep the RPMs varied, and ride the balls out of it.
I'm just over 300 miles on the 696. Break in is a PITA according to the rules in the book. Don't go over 6000rpm, but at the same time, don't lug the motor, and be sure to vary the RPM. This only leaves 2000 rpms to play with! [bang]
Under 4k, the motor feels like it's lugging. So coming out of a turn, I need to downshift it an extra gear, but then shift quickly again to stay under 6k. The salesman at the shop said that the manual is being a little conservative on the RPM recommendation.
For now, I'll go over 6k just a bit when before upshifting. Patience....
Any thoughts?
Can we move this thread out of Tutorials and into Tech, please? :) Gracias.
Just found this thread and I will wake it up from the dead and also throw in 2 cents from the racing engine world and vehicle testing world. I have raced cars for 22 years now and I have been testing vehicles for various manufacturers for 6 years. I have asked the break-in question to several design engineers over the years....Here is what they have said from my experience in the automotive industry..... The legal department writes the break in procedure. That is the short and long of it. What the engineers suggest is vary the RPM, vary the RPM, vary the RPM!!! Also they suggest giving a good amount of throttle aka hard accel for a few seconds in order to build cylinder pressure on the rings. This is to occur every 10 minutes or so when running the engine. Your engine is broken in after 300 miles or so. When you bring your bike in for the first service, they dump the dyno oil and go to synthetic. Trust me, after they put the synthetic in there will be no more breaking in the motor. The funny thing here is your manual says it will not complete the break in until 2500KM? On synthetic? I don't think so...Now when I did the launch and testing on the Nissan GTR the break-in procedure that I performed was, I went on the track and hit redline the first accel run...I drove the car as hard as I could for 1500 miles with out failure. The same car then went out to all the magazines for write ups. How do you think magazine editors broke the thing in? Still no failures. the car had 16,000 miles on it when it came back to Nissan. Still runs today no failures.. Now what I would suggest is following the procedure for the brakes, chain, etc. I asked my dealer mechanic how to break in my bike and he told me the same as always vary the RPM and ride the crap out of it. Everything I have heard, read and believe is don't run the engine at a constant RPM and yes do not put it to bed hot.......There is my 2 cents...
QuoteThe legal department writes the break in procedure.
Thank you for saying this! A lot of people have been saying the same thing but it carries more weight from someone who actually knows the engineers.
QuoteTrust me, after they put the synthetic in there will be no more breaking in the motor
I agree with what you posted, and agree that most of the break-in is complete within a hundred miles or so - except I'm still dubious about the above statement. I think the synthetic has some major advantages, better VI and especially better high temp performance which is important with Ducs. I've used synthetic oil in everything I own for a long time and my experience is that engines run exclusively on synthetic oil wear just like engines run on dyno oil. If they wear they will also break in. I am sort of cynical and suspect that the "synthetic oil is so slick that your rings will never seat" legend was started by the synthetic oil vendors as a marketing ploy. However, I still break in my engines with dyno oil...
Quote from: Langanobob on January 19, 2009, 06:21:24 AM
Thank you for saying this! A lot of people have been saying the same thing but it carries more weight from someone who actually knows the engineers.
I agree with what you posted, and agree that most of the break-in is complete within a hundred miles or so - except I'm still dubious about the above statement. I think the synthetic has some major advantages, better VI and especially better high temp performance which is important with Ducs. I've used synthetic oil in everything I own for a long time and my experience is that engines run exclusively on synthetic oil wear just like engines run on dyno oil. If they wear they will also break in. I am sort of cynical and suspect that the "synthetic oil is so slick that your rings will never seat" legend was started by the synthetic oil vendors as a marketing ploy. However, I still break in my engines with dyno oil...
There is some truth to synthetic oil being bad for break in if you are talking about car energy conserving 5 0r 0W-30 oils, but if the oil is a moto specific oil formulated for wet clutches there is no way it is too slick. Full throttle acceleration is bad for a carbie engine, well, not so much the acceleration but deceleration from full throttle, since fuel will be drawn in from the high vacuum that can dilute oil. This would not be a problem with FI. I would use dyno oil for break in because you will be dumping it so quickly.
Does anyone know for sure what oil is put in by ducati?
<engineer>
Legal departments, bean counters, and managers make more decisions about things than most people realize.
</engineer>
[cheeky]
Quote from: Capo on January 19, 2009, 10:15:38 AM
Does anyone know for sure what oil is put in by ducati?
Mine came with virgin olive oil... EXTRA VIRGIN at that.
I will hopefully be purchasing a 2009 696 in the next week. My First bike was 2002 620 Dark (buddy dropped it....never make that mistake again) and I currently own a 2007 Harley Davidson V-Rod Night Rod. The V-rod was the first bike I'd owned new and I lived in Alaska when I got her and it was winter, so I had a longgg time to research everything, too include break in. I found the exact article posted in this thread, and with that I contacted my friend who was a certified HD mechanic. I was told ride her like you would ride her, period. When I finally got it on the road, I opened that baby up and rode her like I ride her right now. Sometimes hard, sometimes smooth, worked through all the gears, did engine breaking, etc. I have never had a problem with the performance of this machine. If I get a new monster this week, I plan on riding it home and I plan on putting her through her paces and I expect no problems. I think the mfr break in process is tedious and ridiculous.
Oh yea, I also put a new exhaust on my V-Rod before ever breaking it in too.
To each there own but I know what has worked for me.
Cheers
Peyton in FL
Bringing this back from the grave.......
I brought a brand spanking new Monster 696 home over the weekend, and am concerned about engine break in & warranty. I have had great success with hard break in on every other new engine I have had, and had decent to OK results with motors that were too babied at the start of their life.
Ducati specifies 600 miles below 5.5 to 6k and then what like another 6-700 miles under 7k which is weak sauce IMHO. My question is, can Ducati use the DDA port to verify how high the motor has been revved? If not, I'll feel more comfortable breaking in things my way.
TIA
Quote from: ChrisH on June 29, 2010, 02:45:36 AMcan Ducati use the DDA port to verify how high the motor has been revved?
No. It's just a port. Even if you actually had a DDA plugged in, it doesn't have a massive memory. Besides, your dealer simply doesn't care how high you've revved the engine or whether you've really followed proper break-in procedures.
It's your engine. Treat it the way you like.
My wife is trying to follow the recommended procedure for breaking in her 696. I'm struggling to do so on the MTS 1200S I picked up 3 days ago. Our success is limited.
Awesome, thank you! Once this darn rain goes away I'll give it some more revs then. I'll continue of course to vary throttle & load like you should on a new engine, but the 6k limit seems overly protective. Too bad that after waiting a month for the bike we get rain forcasts that cover every day for the next week [bang]