Went for a run to the store last night and 1/3 of the way there I could here an odd clanking sound. I pulled over and pulled my flashlight from under my seat to take a look. I found some black woven material wrapped into the pulleys of the horizontal belt. Nothing at all on the vertical belt. I'm assuming the clanking was the cylinder no longer in proper timing.
First some details on my bike:
S2r 800
Recently adjusted valves
Bought from ca cyclewerks
Belts are 1 year and at most 5k miles old
I run with the belts open
So my questions are:
How can I determine the level of damage to the cylinder?
What could have caused the belt to suddenly come apart like that?
What needs to be done to fix it?
Thanks for any help you can provide
-Andrew
running open belts
could have been a rock
or with recent valve adjustment
could have been belt tension
and likely you have damaged valves
you purchased the bike from ca-cycleworks or do you mean you bought their belts.
who did the vakve adjustment?
pictures would help.
belts dont just come apart like that. Ive ran 3 pairs of exact fits and they wouldnt shred like that unless you jammed something in there (a member by the name magnus had the same thing happen to him, just threads everywhere)
If you run open belts its always a danger but you are the first ive heard of having this problem on a 2v!
sounds like you bent both valves on the foward cylinder.
youll need to check the valve stem for openign and clsoing clearance, you can also do a leak down test on the foward cylinder, or a compresion test, bent valves wont have a good seal. lastly you can just pull the head.
Running open belts exposes them to more weather and more importantly debris. All kinds of shit gets kicked up from the roads. Rocks, bolts, ask IZ about screws... A sudden failure like that is probably due to damage from an external input - aka something hit it or got sucked in.
Also with exposed belts, you're exposing the tensioner bearings to weather. So it's possible that a bearing or two in the tensioner 'system' has bound up or is binding and causing friction
To be sure about damage, 100% sure you need to have the head off. A less invasive check would be to pull the belt, and manually turn the engine to drop the piston. With the belt off and the piston out of the way you can hand turn the cam. The action should be smooth with an increase in torque needed to turn it as you come up against the helper spring, with it then spinning a touch on it's own as it goes over the nose with the spring pressing the rocker on the lobe. If you feel binding, grinding etc - that's not good.
You should have the inspection covers off while doing this also so you can see the action of the valve stems.
The melting could also indicate a seized tensioner/idler pulley bearing.
Quote from: ducpainter on September 18, 2012, 08:36:19 AM
The melting could also indicate a seized tensioner/idler pulley bearing.
+1, most likely cause.
I can get pictures to you guys later tonight when I get home. The belts were from ca cyclewerks, not the bike. Ok so I'll try and pull the belts tonight and see how it feels in regards to the cam. How could I go about checking if those tensioners are frozen/unstick them? Thanks so much for your help already guys!
Quote from: ANedelka on September 18, 2012, 10:58:04 AM
How could I go about checking if those tensioners are frozen/unstick them?
They are jsut sets of ball bearings. They should turn easily and smoothly. If it takes more than a tiny bit of force to turn one or there's a crunchy feeling like sand's in there those are likely signs they are failing/failed. Obviously if they don't turn at all... then it'd dead
Quote from: ANedelka on September 18, 2012, 10:58:04 AM
I can get pictures to you guys later tonight when I get home. The belts were from ca cyclewerks, not the bike. Ok so I'll try and pull the belts tonight and see how it feels in regards to the cam. How could I go about checking if those tensioners are frozen/unstick them? Thanks so much for your help already guys!
You can't 'unstick' them.
Like SP says, if they have any grittiness at all they're done.
You might be able to find replacement needle roller assys at a bearing house, or from Ducati.
Ok perfect, I'll check that tonight! Would anyone be willing to ballpark a cost on repair for this?
Quote from: ANedelka on September 18, 2012, 11:07:10 AM
Ok perfect, I'll check that tonight! Would anyone be willing to ballpark a cost on repair for this?
Not until you pull the head to see if the guides or head are cracked, guides probably are, and whether the piston is damaged.
Impossible at this point. It'll vary wildly depending on what is found. Could be lucky at it'll be a new belt for about $40. The mobile tensioner is $72, the fixed one is $54
But if you've bent a valve or have other damage the price is going to go up quite a bit.
You can look up the parts cost:
http://www.ducatiomaha.com/products.asp (http://www.ducatiomaha.com/products.asp)
Ok well I'll pull everything apart this evening. How does the head come off? Just those bolts at each corner or is there more?
Remove the carb, the belt, and those 4 nuts and it should come right off.
If it's the horizontal there is a sensor in the valve cover to disconnect also.
Carb? I thought the s2r was injected, or does carb mean something else? Also, a stupid question but I assume both belts need to come off? once the head is off what should I be looking for? You guys have been awesome with your help, thanks so much
Quote from: ANedelka on September 18, 2012, 01:09:25 PM
Carb? I thought the s2r was injected, or does carb mean something else? Also, a stupid question but I assume both belts need to come off? once the head is off what should I be looking for? You guys have been awesome with your help, thanks so much
Yeah sorry, it still has a throttle body.
I think to get the horizontal belt off you need to remove the vertical also.
Look to see if the valves are seating. You can pour a small amount of gas into the ports to check. There shouldn't be much, if any, seepage on a good seal.
If the valves don't leak you're golden. If they do you should remove them and check the visible part of the guide for cracks. Also, check the piston crowns for dents/dings.
You don't need to remove both belts, the horiz is on the outside. Just make sure you remove the plug on the vertical cyl if you don't remove the belt.
I just went through this with my bike (2006 S2R 800) because I initially set the timing incorrectly. There's a thread titled 'Broken Rocker Arm' here if you wanna look it up, I believe there are part references in case you end up needing something.
Head Removal:
That said, you can remove the horizontal head by removing the four bolts around it. They are some special 15MM bolt requiring a special tool. They can be had on eBay for <$25, just make sure you get the 15MM one (the 4Vs use a different size which is also sold, I believe).
After removing the head bolts, you can detach the oil cooler and let it hang down (two allen bolts on either side).
After that, you have several options. You can loosen the intake manifold clamp and jerry-slide it out (what I did, also a pain) or take the tank, airbox, and throttle bodies off (the official/correct way). Either way, at this stage the head comes off.
At this point you can remove the valve covers (2 X four allen bolts, don't bother with the cam cover) and inspect the rocker arms (broken in my case) and take the valves out (there are tricks to do this without removing the closer spring, what I did)
Replacement Parts:
Rocker arms can be found on ebay for cheap or a lot, depending on your timing. I've seen them for $125 a pop (still less than half what Ducati wants) or $150 for all eight (what I got)
Valves can be had on eBay as well, though I would suggest looking at KibbleWhite (aftermarket) valves. They were far cheaper than from Ducati, and about what a used OEM would cost anyway. All the local gurus and internet reviews told me that they were good, and I've not had any trouble yet. They will obviously have to be reshimmed unless they happen to match (my case).
If you end up needing the info, I can detail how to replace the rocker arms and valve, as well as give part numbers for replacement valves from KW and rocker arms.
Good luck!
Quote from: uberranger on September 20, 2012, 12:13:16 PM
I just went through this with my bike (2006 S2R 800) because I initially set the timing incorrectly. There's a thread titled 'Broken Rocker Arm' here if you wanna look it up, I believe there are part references in case you end up needing something.
Head Removal:
That said, you can remove the horizontal head by removing the four bolts around it. They are some special 15MM bolt requiring a special tool. They can be had on eBay for <$25, just make sure you get the 15MM one (the 4Vs use a different size which is also sold, I believe).
On Amazon one can find it for about $12
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001DKT5LG/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i00 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001DKT5LG/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i00)
Ah...I forgot that the distributor tool works too. Yes, that's a great solution.