Ducati Monster Forum

I've been reading all the threads I can find as I consider getting an Ignitech TCIP4  (http://www.ignitech.cz/english/aindex.htm) for my carby 750.  I'm rebuilding the harness now and the TCIP unit would accomodate future engine mods. Obviously I'd be getting the most current revision of the Ignitech unit buying it 'today'.

I've been through the long thread on TOB, Brad Black's pages and this thread about the need for resistor plugs (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=48442.0) which is the basis of my quesion.

The coil/wires/plugs setup (all from CA Cycleworks long ago) I've run with the OEM modules for about 7k miles is:

• Coils - Dynatek green coils (DC3-1; 3 ohm; impedance: 13.3MH for the primary and 56.8H for the secondary)
• Wires - NGK CR5 #8515 spark plug cables with a 5k ohm resistor built in to the plug end cap
• Plugs - NGK NON-RESISTOR spark plugs DP8EVX-9

I can’t afford to replace burned-out TCIP units, so I want to try to get this right from the start.  I’d rather take a conservative/protective approach in regards to the TCIP unit.

QUESTIONS:
With the resistor in the plug wire cap, should I also change to resistor plugs just to be sure I don’t damage the TCIP unit?
What is the downside of ‘doubling-up’ on the suppression with both resistor caps and resistor plugs (danger to components or performance problems)?

EDIT – SUMMARY OF CONCLUSIONS FROM ANSWERS BELOW:

• Coils – 3ohm coils are OK but offer no significant advantage over 5ohm coils
• Wires – High quality non-resistor wires/caps are preferred
• Plugs - RESISTOR spark plugs are needed to protect the Ignitech unit

TIA

(ps- I’ve compiled an edited version of the long Ignitech TCIP thread from TOB with out-of-date group buy posts and non-technical posts (attaboys, etc) removed.  It is still a long document but has great learning curve information from the early adopters of this unit.  If you would like a PDF copy, send your email in a PM).

I remember having a discussion with Ducatiz regarding this question. He had some helpful insights, but I no longer have the pm. Maybe he will chime in, or you could pm him yourself.

I'm no sparky, but a few points stayed with me from that thread:
1) Igniteck recommend using resistor plugs
2) Resistor plugs have been oem for a long time
3) The failures were linked to using non resistor plugs
4) The use of high output coils and low resistance performance leads was ok if used with a resistor plug.
5) Bike manufacturers specify resistor plugs to protect ECUs, etc.

FWIW I'm running high output coils with NGK race leads and iridium projected reach resistor plugs with large .9mm gaps and no problems.

Welcome any contributions from any sparkies out there.

I agree with your summary.  I guess what I'm really trying to decide is, when (not if) I install resistor plugs, should I change my leads back to a non-resistor cap-type, or is it OK to keep running the resistor caps, too?

If this is the “NGK race lead” (note mention of the 5k ohm resistor in the “resistor cover”) (http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/products/performance/racing_wires.asp) you’re running, that may be my answer.  Those are what I currently have.  If you’ve been running those with the resistor plugs, your “no problems” experience may be the empirical proof it’s OK.

If your NGK race leads are without the resistor cap, can you point me to that item?

Thanks!

EDIT - finding other sites that say use resistor wies OR plugs OR caps but don't combine 'em .... calling all 'sparkies' out there ..... help ! ???

Correct. I was advised to use low resistance leads (no resistor in cap) with resistor plugs. You can get race cable and fit the cap of your choice. By race leads I meant leads with low resistance (no resistor) and high conductivity, but get well insulated ones!

Edit.

Where did you buy the race leads with cap resistor?

The leads I have came with the coils & plugs as a package from Chris Kelley long ago when he sold the 'Dyna greens'.  By fluke I still have the original packaging for all of that stuff - that's where I found mention of the resistor in the cap, confirmed by info on NGK's current site (they're still sold as "race wires").

The wire itself is a plain copper lead - good stuff with good insulation.  Though the resistor cap is a nice molded end, I suppose it could be replaced with separately available non-resistor NGK race caps.

Spot on.

Do not use non-resistor plugs with the TCI unit.

I have a beautiful set of spark wires I got from Chris Kelley/CA which are "MAGSTAR" type wire and have no resistor in the cap.

NGK makes 0,3,and 5Ω caps for making your own kit.

There is no issue with using 3Ω coils, but the real performance gains are minimal compared to good quality standard 5Ω coils.

Thanks Ducatiz
So would you run the wires with a resistor cap and resistor plugs? Too much resistance? Power robbing or possible damage to the coils?
For example Dyna coils or Exactfit coils with the aforementioned NGK race wires and NGK DPR8EA-9 or DPR8EIX-9?

Or should we use a non resistor wire with such plugs as Carbmon suggests? I also have used straight copper wire with screw on black non-resistor NGK caps.

Anyone tried Dragon Spark Plug wires from TPO?

Carbmon
Thanks for the pdf file. Its now in my ignition file.

I would run either R caps or R plugs, not both.  I use the DPR8EIX-9 plugs and the Magstar wires which are defintely not resistor type.

Also, it's always a good idea to put wires on a multitester.

I think the Dragon Spark wires use Magstar wiring.

Thanks Tiz, it's as we thought. I saved our past pm discussion on this somewhere.. Couldn't remember where, so had to ask again!

I was saying to Carbmon that intuitively, I liked the resistor at tne end of the ignition chain (in the plug).

Thanks V Much Ducatiz and koko64, I’ve summarized these conclusions in an edit to my first post:

• Coils – 3ohm coils are OK but offer no significant advantage over 5ohm coils
• Wires – High quality non-resistor wires/caps are preferred
• Plugs - RESISTOR spark plugs are needed to protect the Ignitech unit

So for me to get to the ‘preferred setup’ I need to change the wires to non-resistor caps and switch to resistor plugs.

Looking at wires, some choices are:

Convert NGK red Racing Wires to non-resistor cap:
Cut the end cap off and install  NGK LZFH 8381 non-resistor caps (http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/docs/Resistor_Covers.pdf).  Koko64 just PM’d me that he did this end-cap swap with great initial results: “I was most surprised to have a stronger idle! It was immediately noticeable” (he’s running resistor plugs to protect the electronics from RFI). This provides empirical support for Ducatiz’ suggestion that ‘doubling up’ resistor plugs with resistor caps is not a good idea (as if we needed support for Ducatiz’ advice [cheeky]).

Magstar wires:
Not on the CA Cycleworks website that I can find but per Ducatiz, contact them and see about this item.    Magstar wires claim good RFI suppression with only 100ohm/ft resistance (http://www.generalcable.com/NR/rdonlyres/775E4514-AE80-4AFB-B743-503DC9DA3DEB/0/GEN35221MagstarSS_FA.pdf).

Dragon wires:
 Available from TPO for the Ducati (https://tpoparts.com/cat093/index.php?route=product/product&path=1_13&product_id=39), TPO says these sets use  MSD Super Conductor wire claiming <50ohm/ft resistance with good RFi supression (http://www.msdignition.com/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=15032386783).

Wire resistance test:
Ducatiz suggests a test of wire assemblies, I assume that’s the simple check  illustrated in this MSD tech sheet (http://www.msdignition.com/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=15032386688), looking of course for a value appropriate to the length of wire in hand and the ohm/ft rating of your wire.


Thanks again Ducatiz & koko64 for the guidance!  I’m lots more confident now that I understand what is needed to protect my Ignitech investment [thumbsup]

Been tuning a 944 Superlight. Strong bike.
Those of you tuning Igntech and not just running the default, canned map, just a reminder that depending on how old the unit is will determine the PC/laptop operating system and the Ignitech program required to access it.

I am running a V80 model and it worked ok with Windows XP. The Superlight has a V75 model and it likes older software to talk to. It will not talk to XP and you can forget Vista! There is an older model again that probably needs Windows 95 or 98! I have the disc software for each model so thats no issue and you can download what you need from the Ignitech website to suit your model. You will know pretty quickly if your software is incompatible as you will be notified of this on screen (usually).

So that old clunker of a laptop you were going to throw out could be useful. The modules use a serial port so I run a serial port/USB adaptor cable and disc with the driver software to download. I had to find an older laptop we still had with XP to use with my bike.

So don't panic if you struggle to get a connection once you plug in with your laptop. It could be incompatible PC/laptop software with the module, the serial port driver (or lack of), the communication channel (you have to choose one that actually works out of those listed and often only one out of twenty or so actually works), or the Ignitech disc software not being compatible with your model module. I received the incorrect disc with my module and was stuffing around for hours before realising. I downloaded all three of the programs to disc to make sure.

As a product it's brilliant and has very useful features, but there are some half arsed aspects in regards to user friendliness and instructions to get it operating. Once operating it is vert user friendly I reckon. Once you are up and running you realise how cheap and nasty the stock ingnition is! Later models let you see on screen in real time whats going on with the ignition in regards to diagnosis with the bike running, very useful indeed.

Brad Black goes into great detail about the system on Bikeboy.org and the DMF Ignitech thread is a beauty to search out. I thought I'd post this as a reminder to those considering the unit or haven't played with it for awhile.
Cheers.

I have TCIP4 version 54, 75 and 80 all running on a Windows 7 system with no problem.

The only problem is if you have a pre v54 system and no hard-wired serial port as that software does not recognize virtual COM ports.  v54 recognizes up to COM16, V75 and 80 both recognize up to like COM30 or so.

I have no idea why you have problem with vista or Win7 with v75.

Wow, really?
Good to hear, but not my experience unfortunately. I will try Vista again with my V80 and serial/USB adaptor. My V80 was fine with xp. Maybe another driver might make it work. The V75 didnt like it with xp or Vista. "incompatible software with ign75" kept appearing on the screen.

What's the full message?  Do you mean in the TCIP4 software?

That was the full message with the tcip software (in bold red letters). So it would run but not read  the module. The adaptor cable was active as it has a light to show this, so it was working with the computer ok.
I'm starting to wonder if the V75 has it's own issue.
I'll let you know how I go.

I have mapped mine in XP & W98SE, w/o problems.
My software is like 6 years now, don't remember version.

I tried again this morning and got Vista to work with my V80 unit. I used a different download process for the USB/Serial adaptor driver download. So there was an interface issue there. XP worked fine with my V80 previously, but this is the first time I could get Vista to work. Vista wouldn't work with the V75 unit, but maybe its the driver software "sandwhiched" between the various Ignitech units and whatever computer program is being used. Just something to be mindful of.

Anyway, if your Kokusan units fail, or if you want to do major performance mods, they are an excellent option with good features.

Just fitted an Ignitech TCIP4.V80 to my trusty M750 commuter.

Plug and play, pretty much.
Frankly, had more trouble getting it to find what port my USB/serial converter was on....
All in all, very easy.

Not sure my SPA tacho likes being on the coil terminal with the TCIP, it's a bit twitchy at times.
It seemed to be perfectly happy there with the Kokusan boxes.
Test ride will tell more.

Well, that was a bit aggravating.

Runs fine at idle, and moderate throttle typical cruising around.

Craps out severely with higher rpm and big throttle.

Switched back to the OEM Kokusans and it runs fine.

There should be a connector port on the block for a taco. Maybe they aren't playing well with how its wired.

Did you read what the timing was in the upper rev range on the computer? The canned map may not be right. Could be too little or too much max advance over stock (maybe). Check also for where the rev limiter is set.

Did you select the correct mode re the pick ups?

Just some parameters to check.

Yes, there's a port on the Ignitech for the tacho, that'll be next if I can get it to run decent.

Timing is:

Base advance 6*
6* @ 1300
9* @ 1800
20* @ 2200
32* @ 3000
35* @ 4000, 5000, 6000, 700, 8000

Rev limiter function verifiied, I set it to 3000 to test it in the shop.

Rev limiter is set to 8500 now.

Dwell is auto, "Type" is set to Classic (1 lobe, 1 or 2 pickups).
Both of which I understand as being correct for Ducati.

Runs fine at moderate throttle and rpm.

That all checks out to me.
That canned map should work.

I would plug in the laptop and run the bike and give it a rev to see what the system says on each cylinder, if its advancing, etc. Nice feature  in real time.  I set the laptop on a stool next to the bike.

Looks great.

I was working on a potentiometer to attach to the throttle to imitate TPS.  It would be more accurate than MAP and easier to implement than real TPS.  It would just report the degree of the throttle control, which is a direct relation to the actual throttle position.   

I'm pretty sure that the issue was (and still is) a dodgy connection to the horizontal coil.

The wiring is quite stiff due to age and heat, and wrestling it around to match the different layout of the Ignitech has pulled a connector completely off once, and I suspect was responsible for the wacky behavior on first install.

I plan to do a TPS or MAP install down the road.
That needs a longer lump on the flywheel to get any gains from it, so a bit more of a project.

I built a completely new wiring kit for my Alazzurra for the Ignitech.  Same basic plugs, just different layout for the Bosch ignition.  I eliminated a bunch of connectors and wiring so the new ignition loom goes straight into the ignitech plug.  Easy to swap back.  I also uprated all the wires some with GXL type wiring.  Took some effort, but there is clearly a happier bike running and the wiring is much cleaner.

There is a TPS version of the FCR carbs available. 

Glad its only an old wire.

[EDIT: this is in response to the OP by carbmon, regarding the use of resistor plugs / caps, just to clear the confusion for those who read this post and did not understand why I posted this]

Resistor plugs vs resistor caps vs suppression wire.

Ducati electronica make some really good electronics packages. They also make some really shite wiring harnesses. Like any manufacturer, they need to provide a reliable package, but costs are an important factor. So somewhere, a decision is made regarding cost vs performance vs reliability and a compromise is struck. Enter the dark days of ducati v-twins (not the lucas electrics days, but not forgetting the Prince of Darkness either..)

One of the problems we encounter on an almost daily basis with Mercedes-Benz vehicles, is the owners who do 'home' tuning on them.

Partly because they want to be seen as a mechanically minded person, and also because many want to save a few $$ on servicing.

The problem is, for the most part, they do not use the service manuals, or OE spec parts.  

A classic example of this is most '81-92 models that have electronic ignition (EZL) units, come into the workshop and have poor running, or wont start or idle, to name a few scenarios..

Inevitably, opening the bonnet (particularly on the v8 engined models) reveals a set of 8 super chunky silicone ignition wires and resistor plugs bought from the local auto parts store.

This causes 2 problems.
 1. the distributor cap burns out, as the EZL unit pushes more voltage to the coil primary than a normal High energy ignition system. the Bosch coils used have a huge secondary winding which puts out about 20kVa more than an MSD type setup - it's a DANGEROUS spark, not just a healthy blue one. It can cause defibrilation, if not tested correctly.

2. use of resistor wiring & plugs causes the coil to overheat, creates what's known as 'back voltage' and the EZL blows.   That lot just cost the owner big biccies. a coil is around $150. an EZL is 10 times that (and up to 50 times that for some models) Aieek! Now you know why you don't want to own a car without a good service history from a dealer or specialist independent…  [laugh]

What has that got to do with this thread you may ask.  well it's simple.   You use resistor plugs, or resistor caps. and never the twain shall meet. (There is a caveat to this, which I will explain later)

Early engines used a magneto, solid copper HT wires, bakelite plug caps and a spark plug which was essentially a steel conductor insulated with porcelain.
Things changed a lot over the next 80 odd years - technology developed during the wars, lead to subsequent use in civilian production engines.  One of these was a 'resistor cap' which fitted onto the end of the HT lead, and the reason for it's use was to control the spark, to stop plugs from burning electrodes and the copper HT wire conductors.
These were common on aircraft, which needed reliable spark at high altitude, where a/f ratios and atmospheric pressure cause all sorts of issues.
Also remember that magnetos which were used to create the potential difference are powerful beasties and generate that high voltage required to create a spark directly from the crankshaft or camshaft in the engine…  more rpm, more kVa, bigger hotter spark and no real way of controlling combustion temps and spark except by that old chestnut 'swapping out plugs' - a very common theme of the 30's, 40's 50's & 60's. A hot plug to start and a cold one to run.

When the kettering ignition system was put into production vehicles, things like dwell angle and advance were far more easily configurable, and coils were able to be sucessfully wound to suit specific applications. This meant that the spark plug wires had a known length, and thus the resistance was known, and an appropriate specification plug, along with a specific coil would ensure RELIABLE spark and for quite a long period. Problem was the points inside the distributor… instead of being a low voltage trigger, the secondary voltage jumped the gap. Still, it was only one thing to replace instead of several. The design would evolve.

Move forward to the 1970's and the transistor era.  diodes rule OK.  Some clever fart at Robert Bosch Gmbh developed a transistorized ignition, along with an electronic fuel injection system (which we all know as bosch D-jetronic, the precursor to all modern motronic injections systems used on all efi vehicles today) and that ignition system was essentially a kettering system, with all of the distributor guts ripped out and replaced with a set of trigger points. The very first incarnations still retained the mechanical contact points however - a slightly ingenious design, whereby if the transistor package failed, you simply rewired the transistor feed to the coil primary, and you had the prehistoric points in the kettering system to get you home…. that's german engineering for you….

But things get more and more complex, and the average Joe, who doesn't have an engineering degree, much less understand what transistors are (remember, joe grew up with valve radios and crystal sets) decides that when his fancy car with all this electronic gadgetry  wont idle, chews fuel like there's no tomorrow and fouled plugs and is now unable to start…

*lightbulb moment*

I'll just go down to the parts store and buy me some leads, plugs and a dizzy cap…  maybe a rotor button.

So Mr ABC auto parts gives him some cheapass leads, an aftermarket dizzy cap and a rotor button that looks the same as his old one, except the brass bit on the end is shiny and it says 'made in PRC'  on the side.  Yep, All good!

What the dickhead did not do, is read the service manual for his car. So instead of buying the OEM style Bosch or Beru ignition lead with the solid wire core and 5KΩ resistor cap which is what the owners manual and service manual specifically states, and the bosch non-resistor plug that matches the leads, he takes a lead down to the parts guy and the parts guy gets some Super Cheap / Best Buy / Autozone branded silicone suppression leads, to replace the old grey wire with a metal cap thingy on it - 'youre leads are shot'  because the agent has no f-ing idea what a resistor cap is, doesn't carry MB spec parts and reckons the silicone leads are better. he says they wont cause interference with the radio, and thats why the resistance is in the leads...

(see where this is going?)

What could possibly go wrong?!  

So Joe Average goes home, determined to fix the car and impress the missus with his repair skills. he fits everything. the new stuff works!  Joe cleans himself up, and goes inside for dinner.

THe car runs fine for about a month. then the missus complains it's 'stalling at the lights' so joe goes and gives the car an italian tune up, and all appears well.

a week later same problem.  Joe pulls plugs. theyre black and sooty and some are wet with fuel.

"damnation!"  after all he just replaced the leads, the plugs the dizzy cap and rotor with all new parts!

Now, this might not make sense to those of you with GM or Ford or Chrysler vehicles that are over 20 years old, but European cars, the MB's, BMW's, Audis, Renaults, Fiats, Alfas, Peugeots & Citröens have used the resistor cap leads for over 40 years.
Beru & Bosch, who make the parts, did so, to control the voltage at the spark plug, and the best place to put resistance in a high tension lead is as close as possible to the plug - from a troubleshooting perspective and from a reliability perspective. having a solid conductor all the way to the cap gives you the ability to simply change a cap, and not the whole lead. no more throwing copper. just replace a ceramic plug cap (unscrew) and put a new one on, and away you go.
And you know if a lead is crook…  if it doesn't have the exact  1kΩ or 5kΩ resistance, the cap needs changing. simple.

Now, insofar as running resistor plugs with resistor caps….  It's not necessary, provided the total circuit resistance is not LESS than specification. Sure, running a resistor plug and a resistor cap makes the coil work REALLY hard and Will give you a weaker spark, most plug manufacturers nowadays have stopped making non resistor plugs, with the exception being racing plugs or special use aviation plugs.  

So what happens if the plug you needed was an old KLG or Bosch w9dc or some brand that does not even exist any more??

Well, despite the many pro/con arguments about the use of resistor plugs with resistor caps, the manufacturer comes out winning. Bosch, who stopped making non-resistor plugs then issued a service bulletin stating that no safety issues exist when using the resistor plugs in lieu of the standard plug. What they did not disclose is that the electronic units they manufactured were only designed to cope with a certain amount of resistance. Some are 1kΩ others 5kΩ. Motorists started having to replace plugs more often, because the cars started misfiring and fouling plugs, and eventually, tried other non oem parts (which is where the silicone leads come in).

One thing to note about resistor caps versus resistor leads:

Resistor caps are fixed resistance. the HT wire is a solid /multistrand copper core wire with absolute minimal resistance per metre.  Silicone resistive leads, have a rated resistance of about 3kΩ per metre (depending on manufacturer). Now, as an example, not many v8 engines have metre long leads, and some require considerably shorter leads - in effect this means resistance is not consistent across all leads / plugs and this creates a variation in the spark, load on the coil, and can even affect ignition timing. Not good.  In fact, as soon as we put a set of standard Beru or Bosch leads on a car, 9/10 times the problem is solved, without having to replace a distributor cap or rotor. So if your engine came with resistor caps, you should use them, and not the silicone type leads. It's a classic example of 'who's right' and the OE manufacturer knows best (in most cases)


Bosch and NGK still make some 'special application' plugs for older vehicles, but the original reason for making the resistor plugs in the first place was for RF suppression. The secondary reasoning was the Bosch HEI (reluctor coil) system developed for GM vehicles. Given there are so many variables in different manufacturers systems, a plug manufacturer has to make some concessions with regards to manufacture, and if a more 'generic' resistor plug can be used over a non-resistor plug and the manufacturing process is cheaper due to greater volume and demand, which way do you think they will go?

Unfortunately, Ducati, like Mercedes-Benz, used technology for their application which is (was) perfectly reliable in it's day. The fact that it was european meant it came with a stigma that it was 'complex and expensive' a complete falsehood in reality, and one that still to this day, costs people more money than it should because the people providing service and advice to owners of 'eurotrash' do not: 1. read service manuals or specification; 2. do not understand what they are talking about; 3.try to sell inferior parts which are not up to OE specification or design.

So if the bike is being modified, and the specification from the part manufacturer says you need 1kΩ of resistance, then so be it. If a resistor plug cap fails, it is the same as a broken lead. No spark. Infinite resistance. If a coil output cannot handle a dud lead or plug, then it shouldn't be used in the application. And a coil driver should be able to function without failure on a closed or open HT circuit. If it doesn't, then the design is not very tolerant, or something is very wrong with the wiring.

I read your entire dissertation...^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

and I can't , for the life of me, figure out what it has to do with the ignitek...

what did I miss?

That's quite a lot of information there.

I'm having trouble extracting what your main points were....

Nothing. It was actually related to an earlier post in the thread regarding the use of resistor plugs with resistor caps and whether or not there is an issue.

I did not quote the post, but should have. I'll try to fix the earlier post to provide some clarification.

Sorry for the confusion.

it was more of a precis of ignition systems and why people have so many problems with them - and not directly inferring there is an issue with the ignitech as such.

There is a lot more detail involved with the rating, specification and delivery of the high voltage to the electrode. I was just trying to demonstrate how history and urban myth combine to provide a diy mechanic with incorrect information.

No worries. A  bit of a rant, but an informative one.
You could do a thread on it. It's great for members to access expertise in different areas.
Cheers.

actually....

The early Ducatis (79-84) used a Bosch ignition but apparently Bosch didn't consider that it would be submerged in hot oil, so they did not use an oil/heat proof wire sheating.  Pickup failures were rampant on this model era (Pantahs).  They had the proper materials available, but for someone reason, the memo was lost.

It's not hard to replace the wiring with correct spec wiring . I've rewired dozens of bikes, mainly to make them simpler for track use.  Eliminating the Molex connectors in favor of 21st century connectors (TE or similar) makes a huge difference.

The saga continues.

The (apparently) good trigger has wires that are broken.
The (apparently) bad trigger has good wires.
 [laugh]

Consequences of fiddling with 15 year old wiring.

I have a wire seller that will even stripe them if you need.  If you are interested, ping me, I'll dig up their info.

They have TXL/SXL/GXL.. I use only GXL as it's a good balance of thickness and chemical/heat resistance.

It's pretty easy to make an ignition loom

I'll have to pull the triggers out to see if they're both good.

Figures, I changed the oil 250 miles ago.  [roll]

Correct. Bosch did supply Ducati, - to ducati's specification.  Bosch actually sold the same part under a different part number for Laverda & Moto Guzzi, and the problem was noexistent on those bikes. Especially the Lav. I jad an 81 Jota which I sold only a couple years ago, still with the complete original wiring, and no problems. the v50 Guzzi's and the v7's didn't have the problem.

Let's not forget that  Ducati were not exactly rolling in money in the early 80's. The first Pantahs had some pretty big issues. Not just electrical ones. Clutch basket rivets, clutch shaft failuers, flywheel nuts, case seals, cush drive failures, oversprung forks….  I could write pages. But we love them because we can fix them. We don't love them when they leave us stranded with blocked carby jets or failed regulators. The only reason I still don't have my 82 900SS is because I was dumb enough to sell it.

bevels or belts, it doesn't matter. The bikes quality has improved 100 times over in 20 years. the new bikes rolling off the production line put out more than twice the power and are 10 times more reliable. When you have an older bike, you just have to put up with these little distractions that pop up every now and then.  [beer]

All is well.

Replaced my triggers with a (hopefully) good used set I had in my spares.

Ignition performance is good, especially nice to have some realistic idle speed control when warming up on the choke.

Now to undo the "while I was in that far" jetting changes.  [bang]

 [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh]

bt, dt.

like you have time to work on your own bike.

I just got the standard TCIP4 unit.. not installed yet.
 before that: after my pickups failed, I replaced them with the P8s and the bike is running 'fine' again.. all stock right now, I noticed some backfiring..  :-\ what could be the cause? I think it's more when decelerating.

back to the TCIP, I don't know exactly how to wire it. they sent me the wiring to match stock units and there's a pair of black connectors and a white one.  ??? which one's for the horizontal and which for the vertical?

then the base advance  -  do I have to change it from the stock setting? this horrifies me because it's not really a pleasure to get to the pickups again..  :o

thirdly, where can I get some maps from ;D I don't even know where to start...


 [thumbsup] Thanks in advance!

http://www.bikeboy.org/ducati2vignition.html (http://www.bikeboy.org/ducati2vignition.html)
lots of info.

since i wrote that report i have found the later units i've had do not have a delay with increasing rpm.

the base advance is just the trailing edge of the lump.  it should be 6 degrees if the bike has not had the timing changed.

You mean the v80 units or have you gotten one of the v10 to test?  They aren't selling the v10 yet

The V80 .

Below are screen grabs of v.80 software, with the settings I'm using currently on my '98 M750.

The advance curve feels reasonable, but hasn't been dyno-developed, so YMMV.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8099/8546144372_682a6ca7bb_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/79721557@N02/8546144372/)

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8382/8545046945_1bfb1b5f95_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/79721557@N02/8545046945/)

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8252/8546144564_25f3f0f3c1_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/79721557@N02/8546144564/)

Alternate view options for the advance table; a 2-D and 3-D view.
3-D view is only useful with a TPS/MAP sensor setup.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8243/8545047189_2e7f2c5f5d_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/79721557@N02/8545047189/)

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8389/8545047109_bece9aabb1_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/79721557@N02/8545047109/)

so basic advance is 6 or 10? for stock bike :-\

Base advance 6.

Finally finished up my extended lump flywheel.

For reference, OEM:

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8396/8674120332_33b378e6e1_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/79721557@N02/8674120332/)

After welding:

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8519/8674120776_ce74535813_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/79721557@N02/8674120776/)

After machining:

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8543/8673018407_71b7e6b470_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/79721557@N02/8673018407/)

Other side:

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8529/8674121074_34e037a262_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/79721557@N02/8674121074/)

You can see the additional drillings to restore balance, as there's more material on the lump.

Also, lightened it while I had it in the lathe, from 2052g to 1726g.
Not a huge reduction, but all of it taken off the large diameter area, so significant reduction in inertia.

And, seeing what Brad Black did with colored dot timing marks, I decided to go one better.
Nice series of dots, so no color code chart needed.
one dot for 10 degress, two for 20 degrees, and so on.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8544/8674120656_39b01ecf43_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/79721557@N02/8674120656/)

Looked the dogs bollocks on the bench.

But behind the window, in a hurricane of oil, lit by the timing light... can't see make the beast with two backsall. [laugh]

I've put in a timing curve with a step from 35 to 40 degrees at about my highway cruising RPM, so I can play it back and forth to see if it feels any different.

Oh, and I fixed the jetting that I "improved" while I had it open to put the IgneTech in.... [roll]

Nice [thumbsup]

How much to order one?

Well, the jetting change got it back to running the way it was before.

The 5 degree timing 'step' was nearly undetectable while riding.  :P
Perhaps even totally undetectable, as I knew where to expect it, so my butt-dyno may have been generating bad data.

Tiz, producing the flywheel required borrowing time on a lathe, so not very practical.
Perhaps in the future.......

i know someone with one of them.  hrm.

Just curious how you re-balanced it?  Send it out to a balancing shop, or were you able to do it in house? 

Thanks

Balance shop just around the corner did the work.

Since the 5 degree timing step was nigh on invisible, I decided to try 10 degrees.

Like this:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7322/8727446426_38eea2a8a5.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/79721557@N02/8727446426/)

Still couldn't feel much, if anything.

 [bang]
I've conceded defeat in this battle.
If I can't feel that big a change, there's no point in pursuing a TPS or manifold vacuum advance strategy at this time.
If I had free dyno time, perhaps.

Went back to the curve I have shown in my March 10 post.

The TPS would be for decel only, that's where you'd get the most.  Maybe a little with roll-on accel if you do it right, but then again, not much. 

I'd be curious to see what the manifold vacuum curve in the DigiPlex is.

Oh, here, Brad has it.  [beer]

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-dw8YGG8eDLI/T6uC7FGHW2I/AAAAAAAAANk/zaREpJiPZBA/s1600/Paso+digiplex.png)

Perhaps it may be worth it after all to try the manifold vacuum.

the issue with the manifold vacuum is that the cruise vac is a much greater % of max than the throttle opening.  so, you need to narrow the range of max and min voltage.

if you want a heap more advance at cruise, and it cruises at 100km/h at 10cm hg, and wot is 0cm hg and max vac is 50cm hg, then cruise is 80% tps voltage.  these were the sort of # i saw when logging my 750.  maybe 15cm hg at cruise, but definitely no more.  throttle opening wise you might have 10 degrees at 100km/h, max being 82 to 85.

so if you want a wot line that is accurate, you need the 80% line to be much the same as if it's not then you still have tapering adv to wot.  so if you want 30 deg at wot and 60 at cruise, you need cruise to be 60 degrees or less tps equivalent out of the map, and that's where the manifold vac/tps interrelation sort of falls over in terms of outright low and high used as equivalents.

so the 0cm hg map output voltage is your tps high figure, but instead of tps low being 76cm hg (actually, my map was 0v at 65cm hg), it might be 25cm hg.  this gives a break resolution of 20% = 5cm hg, so your 80% line is 5cm hg vac, and you wouldn't want it any higher vac wise than that I don't think.

a 900 will pull more vac than a 750, a 600 less too.

if that make sense.

just something to look out for.  generally, more adv will help fuel economy.  you might not feel it so much, but it should use less fuel.  brutale 750 certainly does.  but you need +20 degrees, up to 30 if you've got it.

Stressing that MAP will be widely different for each modelby cc  and for any differences in head work.  Setting up map advance points shouldn't be too hard though but you have to have some way to log mercury height i.e dyno

Thanks, Brad.  [beer]

I'd read the most recent stuff you posted on the old board, and I think I get the gist of it.

I've fitted a standard automotive diagnostic vacuum/pressure combo gauge.
My test ride verified that the 1/3 of the gauge sweep dedicated to vacuum made reading accurate numbers virtually impossible.
Freeway cruise vacuum was in the range of 5-10 inHg, near as I could tell, anyway....
That's only about a 5mm needle sweep, and the vacuum signal pulsation was usually at least that much.
So I need a dedicated vacuum gauge and very aggressive signal damping to get acceptably accurate data.

My modified flywheel can give me ~60 degrees of total advance, which should be enough.

I figured the way to test it would be to do a loop with a single line adv and then repeat the loop with the map active and compare fuel economy.  that's about the clearest way to show a benefit.  I don't know if you'd really notice it otherwise.

I just used a normal gm green map sensor.

I've got a pretty good loop for commuting, 100 miles round trip, about 65 miles highway, 30 miles farm roads, and 5 miles urban.
The bike's pretty consistent on mileage, and traffic's pretty consistent as well.

I've got one steep and long hill on the highway going in, I've got to get a good vacuum reading on that.
I don't think I could hear it pinging, and I'd rather not injure it...

GM green, eh?
I'll see if I can get one of those for a decent price.

Hi,

sorry for interrupting but can anyone tell me what would be a good map for a Monster 600, carbed - stock?
And if could someone explain how these advance values influence the running of the engine - I am trying to understand how it works. Sorry for the noob questions..  :-[

maybe like this one?

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/accessories/COMP-Cams-1-bar-MAP-sensor/_/N-268u?itemIdentifier=891268&_requestid=827454 (http://www.autozone.com/autozone/accessories/COMP-Cams-1-bar-MAP-sensor/_/N-268u?itemIdentifier=891268&_requestid=827454)

http://wbo2.com/hw/im/gm1bar.jpg (http://wbo2.com/hw/im/gm1bar.jpg)

maybe by green I meant black.

Which 600, left or right side clutch slave?

I have a '96 600ss with the right hand side slave and I have the ignitech fitted.  I used the 1.1 curve as a starting point and tweaked it here and there.

Generic GM-style MAP sensor, same as what's on my Saturn (seemed a good idea to get one that I could re-use if necessary).

Appropriate pre-made connector and pigtail.

Only needed to attach the terminals and stuff them into the proper spots of the Ignitech connector.
Well, that, and piggyback the two trigger ground wires onto one terminal, as I needed the other one for the MAP sensor.
Ignitech took the easy way and used up both sensor grounds with their harness.

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7288/8737040808_a1d655bd0f_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/79721557@N02/8737040808/)

Very cool. Looking forward to the outcome.
 [popcorn]

hi, it's from 2000, clutch slave on the left. would you mind sharing your version? your bike is stock?(exhaust & intake)

Thanks!

Pardon me;

I'm hooking up my own Ignitech today or tomorrow. Skimmed the entire thread, wasn't conclusive. I have the CA-Cycleworks Exactfit coils with the wires Chris supplied with them. I will be using the NGK-DR9EA plugs. Are the wires that come included with these coils the ideal non resistor type? Just want to be sure I have the right setup.

thx

Plugs are resistor.  You're good.

shoot me your email.  Mine is not stock at all but that should not matter.  600 and 900 use the same advance.

Hooked the whole kit with the MAP sensor back into the bike, plugged it into the laptop and gave it a look.

Straightaway, ran into a rather big problem.

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7286/8738484339_cac79ec8e8_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/79721557@N02/8738484339/)

Voltage vs. Vacuum curve for the MAP sensor is great.

However, the IgniTech won't budge off of 100% TPS until 5 inHg (~3.8V).
That's not good.

I've got to spend some time talking to a sparky to figure out if there's a workaround.  :-\

you set the tps min and max voltage to wtf you want in the ignitech set up.  misc (1st) screen, select the tps yes button to make it appear.

that should make it work from my experience.

of course, if what i'm saying is not what your issue is, ignore as required.

Yah, that's what I did.
Enabled the TPS, then hit the 'SET TPS 100%' button with the the MAP sensor open to the air.
Then put 20 inHg vacuum on it, and hit the   'SET TPS 0%' button.
TPS% wouldn't come off of 100 until the voltage got below ~3.8v. 
I altered the TPS max voltage up and down, but it wouldn't budge off of 100% TPS until the sensor voltage got to ~3.8V or less.

Ya just want a divider to reduce the voltage a little to get it into the TPS range - it depends on what the input impedance of the TPS is though.

I'd start with something like 330 Ohms in series with the sensor output (between sensor output and TPS in), and 1K from TPS in to ground.

Season to taste.

I knew suzyj could guide me out of the wilderness!  [beer]  [bow_down]

Wired in a 2.5 kOhm trimpot as a voltage divider, did a bit of adjustment, and it's really good now.

New graph, not all that exciting really, but I took data to confirm function, and you must have a graph to show results to the boss.  [laugh]

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7290/8743312550_d56260b14f_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/79721557@N02/8743312550/)

As an added bonus, in the process of sourcing the trimpot, I found the awesome electronic supply store I've been looking for for years.
They've got a 10' x 10' wall area just for zipties, it's like a freaking candy store.  [drool]
No more trudging to Radio Shack to negotiate with ignorant dolts and buy total crap.
I can go to a real store with knowledgeable staff and get quality parts.

very nice

Ripper!

well, that's over my head.

you can also manually set the tps values, which is what i was doing.

I never actually realised there as an auto set thingy.

The Auto-set may have been an upgrade on a software revision.
I recall that the screen images that you have on your blog are a bit different from what my screen shows with the v80 software.


Thanks for your help!  [beer]

Now, the annoying part.

The TPS table breakpoints are coarse (40%, 60%, 80%, 100%) in the range I'm interested in.

Is there electronic trickery that can be employed to invert the voltage signal?

I assume that if I swap the +5v and ground going to the MAP sensor it will let all of the magic smoke out of it....

Speeddog,

How did you know from the 1st TPS/Voltage curves that something was off? From just looking at the plots, I assume that something was wrong b/c TPS never reaches zero. Is my assumption correct or is there another explanation? I notice after using the potentiometer that TPS reaches zero and doesn't hang at 100% as long. Very interesting thread and I look forward to incorporating your hard work over to mine when all is sorted [thumbsup]

Yes, the sensor won't appreciate that.

You need an op-amp to invert the signal. A suitable one is http://www.linear.com/product/LT1494 (http://www.linear.com/product/LT1494), but any rail to rail op-amp that will run at 5v should do fine. I chose this one because they're common and the manufacturer does free samples.

Connect the power for the op amp to 5v and gnd, and wire the + input to the middle of an equal resistance divider. 2x1k resistors should be fine.

Now wire your map sensor to the - input via a 1k resistor, and connect another 1k resistor between the - input and the output pin. Then finally connect the output pin to your tps input.

If you want to trim the zero point, use a trim pot in place of the divider on the + input.

Here's a picture of what you want:

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-RKiEPVM2oWc/UZVAEKTIprI/AAAAAAAACng/L_yRtxY4mdo/w1621-h1211-no/1088FCC1-73F0-4A31-A273-E6B00E9E68FB.JPG)

Good luck

LMFAO  [laugh]

I read your post prior to you updating it with the schematic.

Ran off, googled, read up on op-amps, scratched my head, read your post again, and did this:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7283/8745815440_2c25c7acb1_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/79721557@N02/8745815440/)

 Then came back to post, and found you'd added the schematic.
[laugh]

Good news is it's the same schematic as yours, I just didn't flip the op amp +/-, and I used the trimpot, as I just *happen* to have a very nice 2.5 kOhm trimpot.  :)

Scary part is I'm pretty sure I understand how it's working.  :o

(Truth be told, from an electronics standpoint, it's likely only a little more advanced than tying my shoelaces.  :P)

in v80, if you click on the voltage, a little up/down arrow box appears next to it and you can adjust there.

don't mean to harp, but I know I went thru this too.  0 volts has to be lower than 100 tho, so can't invert that way.  I have no idea what the above stuff means too.

Yes, I played with that as well, adjusting both by filling in a number and clicking the button to automatically set it to whatever the value was at the time.
Button click is great for a regular TPS, I'm sure.

I tried setting the 0% TPS volts high and 100% TPS volts low, and the Ignetech had none of it.  [laugh]
Too smart!

I'm enlisting suzyj to help me understand how to make a little magic electronic box to translate the MAP sensor signal into something that's much like a TPS signal.

As always, your input is valued, you've done quite a lot with the Ignitech.
Dunno exactly the OZ meaning of 'harping', but no problem here!

Harping-- to repeat or revisit.   To have a raging case of harpes.

(http://harpsaustralia.com/new/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/playing-small.jpg)

I was respectfully telling you how to suck eggs, in the full knowledge that you knew how to, but maybe there was something you were missing sort of thing.  it's been so long since I played with it that I don't recall exactly what I did, but it did give me some agro with voltages not as I expected which kind of made me give up.  ish.

No worries.  [beer]

I think I've got it worked out how to get the MAP and Ignitech to play nicely with each other.
Remains to be seen if it's worth the effort.

I'm sure it'd be easier from the electronics perspective to just throw in the towel and fit a TPS, but that's an (at best) awkward solution on carbs.

Yes and no.

Remember that the TDM850 used the same carbs (different spigot) and has a TPS. 

The FCRs for the TDM have a spot for the factory TPS.  I've talked with Sudco about it and they have no problem swapping a set of FCRs for the TDM with the ducati spigots and jets.

I was really thinking about the difficulties of fitting a TPS on the OEM Mikunis on the Duc.

I know, just throwing that out there.  You can find the TDM Mikunis for around 100 on fleabay.  Usually have to buy the TPS separately.

you have PM

cheers

I saw people limiting at 8500 - 9000 rpm.. why that?
and secondly - what's the dwell setting for OEM coils + which coils should I upgrade to?


M600 from 2000

cheers

RPM limit of 8500-9000 because power is already dropping off, so no point in revving higher.
Setting yours at 9000 would be fine.

I left the dwell on 'auto', seems to work fine.
here's what my 'miscellaneous' page looks like:
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=59800.msg1150973#msg1150973 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=59800.msg1150973#msg1150973)

California Cycleworks has some nice replacement coils.

thanks! what about this pair of dyna coils? http://www.ebay.com/itm/380532406996?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/380532406996?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649)

So I got the dyna coils - and according to the other Ignitech thread, using resistor plugs is the trick for the module.
I will be using 3 ohms Dynas, NGK racing leads (red) and NGK resistor plugs - is this setup safe with the Ignitech? I believe the leads have resistors too

cheers

Yes as long as you have the R plugs.  You'll work your alternator/regulator more with the green dynas.

ChrisK used to make a kit for them but no more.

hmm.. that's not good news.. is there the possibility to break them? I remember having a lot of trouble with the regulator on a 94 Cagiva Elefant.. clearly not their strongest point.. If I'm better off without them, I would cancel the order..

Yes, possibility but not overwhelming.  The 3ohm models use more juice, which means you'll be working the alt and regulator more, that's all.  The spark difference isn't enough to recommend it.  Some have used them and swear by them, but none of the racers I know use 3ohm they all use the 5ohm (black) with uprated wiring and are doing fine.

I understand. for the 5 ohm coils, what do you mean by upgraded wiring?
I have wrote them to cancel the order for the 3 ohm ones.
thanks

If anyone wants to hook up a TPS, this might help:
http://www.ducati-upnorth.com/forum/showthread.php?15246-900SS-Ignition-Project/page4 (http://www.ducati-upnorth.com/forum/showthread.php?15246-900SS-Ignition-Project/page4)


He used one for cars, see page 3.

@speeddog can you please give more details on hooking up the MAP sensor?
I've checked the link posted by greenmonster on installing a TPS sensor on Mikunis but I thought the MAP is easier to install and what's odd I found a GM sensor in my garage:>
which pins uses on the ignitech module and do I have to link it to both cylinder intakes? Thanks

 [popcorn]
Great thread.

Hi guys,

I found cape's take on wiring both a TPS and a MAP on the Ignitech module which looks very neat  - would this work for Ducatis as well?  ;D and I believe the MAP must be connected to both intakes..
here is the topic on laverdaforum.com
http://www.laverdaforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=83123.30 (http://www.laverdaforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=83123.30)
cheers

Base advance etc:
http://www.triumphrat.net/maintenance-tips-and-tricks-for-the-t3-classics/99853-igniter-remap-and-low-cost-stock-replacement-30.html (http://www.triumphrat.net/maintenance-tips-and-tricks-for-the-t3-classics/99853-igniter-remap-and-low-cost-stock-replacement-30.html)

Any custom option could work.

However, if you are ok with your Mikuni 38cv carbs, then buy a salvage set of Mikunis from a Yamaha TDM.  They are identical to Monster/SS factory carbs.  Rejet them to your preferences, and plug the TPS right in. 

my base advance is set to 6 deg but I have noticed that while connected to the laptop, if I rev the engine the max advance displays 33deg with yellow highlight.. why that? isn't 36deg max advance?

There is a lag in advance after around 5000.  If you have advance set at 36 deg from 4000 on, it will show a lag of about .5 to 1 deg every 1000 rpm past 5000 or so.

- sub'd -

oh, and don't use 3 ohm Dyna coils. Our kit is only a few $ more and if you have any problems, we send out replacement parts without hesitation. Even if it's your fault if something went wrong. Our 1st run of coils were a bit much, they scaled it down a notch so the v2 models shouldn't EMI the ignitek so badly. ;D

when were the v2 started?  how can i tell them apart?

the early tcip4 had a lag of 1 degree per 1,000rpm over 3,000 rpm, which you could see with a timing light.  the later units i had put a light on seem to not have that delay.  have you seen later ones with a delay izaak?

v2 started shipping in the past few months. They have the logo writing in a grayish silver color and say v2 on them. :) If you have old ones (have proper black logo on them) and want new ones, let us know and we'll send them to you. If the old ones work, they technically have higher output... but I haven't built a test bench for those yet!! Maybe that's "next"...?

@suzyj: check out my latest creation (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=64324.0), you might appreciate it being able to draw an OpAmp circuit and all...


@suzyj and @Speeddog, check out fritzing.org (http://fritzing.org/), it really helps with designing simple circuits. ;D

Hi guys and thanks!
it's true that my maximum advance is set to 36 degrees and on idle it shows that correctly but -like you said- on higher rpms it goes down to 33 or 34.
So is it reaching 36deg in the end? I mean, is it just a display problem or it actually won't pass 33deg. Should I leave it to 36deg max advance?

@chris
I haven't got the dynas, still on stock coils.. I've checked yours and as I'm coming to US in August I might order them there.. if not, could you ship them to the UK?

thanks a lot guys!

the timing light will tell you what you have.

No, it is not reaching 36 deg.

You need to change the curve in the TCI to compensate.

Thanks. will change the curve then

Seems like possibilities f mapping beyond lobe in new version:

http://www.ducati.ms/forums/57-supersport/187881-new-unofficial-ignitech-manual-4.html (http://www.ducati.ms/forums/57-supersport/187881-new-unofficial-ignitech-manual-4.html)
The other two changes I made was to enable the 'spark before lobe' feature I got with the latest firmware update and also re calilibrate the TPS.

http://www.ignitech.cz/english/tcip/tcip.htm (http://www.ignitech.cz/english/tcip/tcip.htm)
We produce new version V88 from 2013 year. New software for this version is here: TCIP4.EXE (version 88).

Nice.  But no usb yet...  :-(

New design on site and new toy:
http://www.ignitech.cz/en/vyrobky/accessories/map_switch/map_switch.htm (http://www.ignitech.cz/en/vyrobky/accessories/map_switch/map_switch.htm)