Ducati Monster Forum

And coming soon to a hillside near you, 4 horseman.

i mean, not at all surprising given the bridgepoint thing.

but at the same time, holy shit.


there'll be 900 NASCAR references made.. but if they can figure out a formula that makes GP competitive/fun again and make superbike rules global, then ok.  i guess.

hard facts are that GP is suffering and WSBK is flourishing.  GP can't go away, and the same co owns both.  so you... fix it.  whatever that means.
 

You... make a true Protype level and leave it the hell alone. THIS is the reason I don't like GP. the 81mm bore limit, etc etc.

can't really argue that they haven't been able to fix F1.

We shall see...

Faaaaack... :'( :'( :'(

Stoner knew what he was doing.

Rules do not ruin prototype classes.  Formula 1 is really fun to watch again, and you can't say they don't have rules and regulations that everyone must adhere to.

cc limit is one thing. but with the bore limit you force 4 cylinders to get to the cc limit.
both kill engine innovation.

same with the spec ecu coming.

at least in WSBK you get to pick your motor configuration and cc limits are the way to even things out.

to me, WSBK is even more adventurous than MotoGP, yes ok, they have to be based on production bikes. but that production bike can be pretty damn ingenious if they want it to be.

fixing MotoGP... build some rules around weights/cc's/max electronics then let them go.

The best times in F1 in my opinion... 3.5l motors, a max on intake TB and the rest is up to you...
there were V10, V8, V12..

what do we have now in GP, V4/I4 because of the bore limit.
i'd loved to see a Triumph triple in there along with Ducati bringing a kick as twin. and maybe a Guzzi 6 cyl

dont even get me started on the moto2/3 crap.
spec motors... NASCAR anyone? putting everyone on the same bike.. sure in a series race like the 848 challenge.. but prototype-spec? that the hell is that?
I love the tech spectacle just as much as the racing.

I'm on the fence. This could suck or not be so bad. Notice I didn't say suck or great. Not so bad is as optimistic as I can get right now.

I personally feel that DORNA is screwing the pooch with MotoGP. Hope they don't do the same with WSBK. [popcorn]

what was everybody using before the bore limit? that's right, 4-cylinders.


let's get back to this in a sec...


yes, but most of that ingenuity has be homolgated and sold to the public. there's an inherent cost-containment aspect to this.

fwiw, there are things on the production bikes that aren't allowed on the race bikes. active suspension (bmw and ducati), for example.


current rules are (simplified) minimum weight and max bore. how do you enforce "max electronics"? that's right, spec ecu (just like formula 1).


yup, and a big "performance limiter" in those days, iirc, were the tires.


you have 4-cylinders because that's what works. honda tried a twin in the 90s, they canned it. roberts tried a triple in the late 90s, early-2000s. not competitive. in the 990 era, honda built a 5-cylinder "because they could," and then went back to a 4-cylinder.

the bore limit, quit simply, reduces cost. otherwise some manufacturer with super-deep pockets would try to build an ultra-high-revving motor out of unobtainium.

if you removed the bore limit, ducati isn't going to come out w/ a gp twin. if they thought it would work, they would've already done it (when the rules allowed it).


best on-track racing in the series.


you apparently don't know the regulations.


i love the tech, too, but the manufacturers can still innovate within the bounds of a rule structure.

which they sure as hell did with the 800s.
 

There won't be as many areas to innovate by the time all the bikes have headlight decals. ;D

[laugh]

this whole thing is also like debating whether or not it's audi or lambo that owns ducati.  bridgepoint already owned both, they're just doing some kind of PR consolidation/smoke job.  likely so that they can ease us into the more outrageous changes that are coming.  politically astute.
 

Fixed it for you.

My feeling is this is entirely about money. Consolidate to spend less and monopolize to make more.

As for rule changes, they will do whatever they need to do to maximize viewership while not pissing off the manufacturers too much.

Also, bleh.

IROC baaaaaby

IROC... good one! [laugh]

Isn't EVERYTHING about the $$$... I know that's what my ex-wife thought. :P [roll]

Wonder if they're teaching Danica Patrick to ride a two-wheeler?

They are still teaching Danica how to turn left

Do you reckon that in a few years it could all end up on the same weekend? SBK world championship production class as support race and 600s rolled into one?

and cut the money in half for each series? i say no.

I don't see any changes in the foreseeable future. If anything some rounds that have lost viewership might be merged. For instance, they might drop some rounds in tracks that don't attract enough crowds and move them to places where they are sure to sell a shitload of tickets.   

I just read the version of the announcement posted on motogp.com

http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2012/Bridgepoint+brings+together+MotoGP+and+World+Superbikes (http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2012/Bridgepoint+brings+together+MotoGP+and+World+Superbikes)

I feel...

dirty.

Maybe they will bring a subscription streaming package to WSBK finally !

 [thumbsup]


Maybe there is room for a new rouge series to start up based on purely prototype bikes if the interest is really there. 


mitt

Dirty in the sense that it always seems to come down to maximizing money, acquisition & power?

Read me like a bodice ripper...

http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/184614/1/fim_responds_to_bridgepoint_announcement.html (http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/184614/1/fim_responds_to_bridgepoint_announcement.html)

The FIM statement is supportive of the move, and also confirms that changes will be made to create more of a separation between the prototype (MotoGP) and production-based (WSBK) championships.

I guess it's no surprise that I seem to enjoy watching vintage GP races more than the current stuff, even though I already know the outcome.

the current motogp races would likely get more exciting if they dialed the tire technology back a few decades.

moto2 and moto3 are fine.  ;D

or backed off on the electronic rider aids.

my favorite was 500cc gp.

i never see moto2 or moto3 available on the tv, and i don't have patience to stream stuff.. :-/

i think the worst part is the electronics..  it's just a handicap

it's like parking assist in cars.

if you need it, it means YOU CAN'T FRIKKIN PARK

iirc, moto2 airs race-sunday afternoons on speed and moto3 airs the following tuesdays.

yep.  almost always anyway.

I don't know about that comparison. Maybe if the parking assist was on a 600 hp muscle car that wouldn't idle below 4,000 rpms.

Pretty sure GP riders can ride whatever you give them.

It would be nice to see that again

Yeah, I think that's what Rossi told Stoner ;)

At the rate we're going we'll see a riderless series in a few years.

"Google vs. Microsoft"

Its an imperfect analogy but not incorrect.  Racing without electronics requires far more skill.

What he said!^  [thumbsup] [Dolph] I want the riders to ride again. Not flip switches and just hang on. Yeah, I know... talent still gets you on the podium but like derby said, nothing like the crazy 500cc GP days. All the racers had their personal ortho doc in the pits with a 55 gallon drum of cast plaster! [laugh]

I think you'd still see the same guys winning races without all the electronic aids as you do now. Fast is fast. The difference is the races might be closer, as winning might not require such as precise style.

I do agree that most of the electronics should go. However, I have no problem with traction control. I like to watch racing, not crashing, and I'd rather see healthy riders battling it out the entire season. Look how boring things got since Stoner left this year.

I'm not positive that would be the case because the skill set might be different.

I think they'd have to be more precise to avoid the crashing.

I completely agree about the racing vs. crashing though.

Ya, hard to say for sure, but fast guys tend to be fast on whatever.
 
I think they'd have to be more precise with the throttle, but not on their lines. Right now they're riding right at the edge, where missing an apex by a foot or two can be a big deal. If they weren't able to ride right at the edge lap after lap (i.e. less precise), then mistakes could be overcome more easily. Basically, it's the precision between WSBK and MotoGP right now...WSBK is much less precise overall (at least seems that way to me), despite them having traction control.

True, but all those guys are fast...even the 'slow' ones. The lack of so many electronics would make the guys with lower budgets faster if the guys with the resources of the big teams couldn't pin it everywhere

I was referring to the throttle precision.

I agree on the rest.

You mean, MotoGP's not going to add stick-shaker or butt-vibrator components to the bikes to warn of impeding washouts/highsides or imminent inside passes by Marc Marquez?

There was a good article this spring/summer in Roadracing World about British Superbike's (seemingly successful spec ECU) ban of traction control....no carnage as predicted.

electronics have driven, but also kept up with, the development of the bikes.  and tires.  don't forget that things in GP are measured in very small increments.  a tenth is a huge advantage.

it's clearly still possible to highside, always will be.  outside TC the advances have been in fuel management, mapping, engine braking, location, yadda yadda.  ways to eek out the best possible lap every time (..800s faster than 990s).

the BSB ban of TC was about cost more than anything.
 

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2012/Oct/120903ool.htm (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2012/Oct/120903ool.htm)

+3


+2

I liked the "old" racing, the 500 the beginning of "liter" class . ..  down to 800 back to "1000" . . .thru the past 10~12  years I've seen guys coming from the "lower" categories without "many" electronics to riding a computer with an airpump and not making it . . .then the "old school" guys not making into the geeky racing . .. that's MHO

We should start a DMF racing series. ;D

RUN WHATCHA BRUNG BABEY!!!

 [thumbsup]

Whats the budget?

mitt

We're going to fall far short of the 11 Billion Euro that Bridgepoint leverages. ;)

there is 1 possibly good thing that could potentially come out of this....

much like a MotoGP.com subscription for races, as apposed to SPEED or Eurosport or whatever...we can have WSBK webfeed.

Surely Carmelo will want to maximize his pocket.

Just think...2 subs at how much? 100 buck each?

I'm still not getting the warm IZ_...

american fans have been asking for a worldbsk stream for years. warm IZ_ or not, there's a market.

Yup...

and after all...

it's all about marketing...

right?

Sucks.

WSBK is now better than ever, due mainly to the strong direction of the Flammini brothers that have actively adapted the series to changing market conditions, instead of buckling to manufacturer demands... exactly what has killed AMA and is killing MotoGP. At one point or another, several manufacturers have attempted (esp Ducati) to bully WSBK rulemaking in their favor, only to have the Flamminis tell them to go pound sand. Some of those manufacturers have quit over this and other various reasons (like trying to fund a MotoGP campaign), but now they're all back in one form or another. Good, focused leadership has produced the best racing series on the planet.

OTOH, MotoGP is a train wreck, thanks to Dorna and Ezpeleta; There are only 3 manufacturers left, Repsol is the ONLY remaining sponsor of any significance, top riders are quitting or defecting to WSBK, and CRT is a joke for what's supposed to be The Premier Class. Even Johnny Rea, after being given a 'dream' ride, stated he's happy to return to WSBK. Honda pretty much gets what Honda wants, and threatens Dorna to quit the series otherwise... which now Dorna cannot afford. Once Rossi is gone, MotoGP will really tank, badly.

Now with Dorna in the WSBK driver's seat, WSBK is in peril......

And like the article mentioned, Dorna is now holding the manufacturers balls. So HRC can't just pack up. They will need to work with Dorna or not at all. No manufacturer can afford to quit both MotoGP and WSBK. If anything they might all decide to focus completely on one racing series and leave Dorna holding the bag. What would happen if MotoGP turned into a CRT only series? This seems to be the direction they were going anyway. Move all manufacturers to WSBK where you can compare apples to apples. Prototype series dies a painful death.

I do like the idea of finally streaming WSBK and you can bundle it. Would you be willing to pay $150?

Nope

The race looks just as good a couple hours later...even a day later. ;)

It's all about the marketing remember?

I'm gonna start selling headlight decals. ;)

I of course agree that wsbk as a series is far more healthy than GP these days, however..

 - the Flamini brothers haven't done much to adapt the series to anything, other than a spec tire and the recent (sorta) 1 bike rule.  they market it very well, expand into other countries, it's moderately affordable to be there, and are aided by the racing being so good.  that last bit is conveniently underscored by the racing getting worse and worse in GP.

 - the current (slightly improving) train wreck that is the AMA is most definitely not a product of the series buckling to manufacturer demands.  it's the opposite of that.

 - agreed GP is a mess, but it's not Dorna or Carmelo's fault.  it's the manufacturer's fault.  specifically the MSMA.  as fans and GP purists we may not love the decisions Carmelo has made in the wake of the mess, but it was Yamaha and especially Honda that got us there.  5 million euro to lease a satellite bike?  get the f outta here.

You cite the problem with GP being the present state (CRTs etc), which aint pretty for sure, but it was that or let the series die completely.  If budgets are the single biggest problem, and you're down to 12 bikes or whatever it was on the grid, what do you do?

of course johnny wants to go back to wsbk.  he's a racer: he wants to win.  that's for sure not happening on a CRT bike.
 

I'd be all over it if they give us the same as MotoGP.  Give me WSS and WSBK, plus qualy rounds, and team/rider interviews, plus maybe some "classics."  I spend just as much time watching non race coverage with my MotoGP subscription as I do watching the actual races.

How about a pair that'll look like the bike's rolling its eyes?

A series of articles, oldest to newest:

http://www.bikerglory.com/2011/12/gp-wsbk-some-home-truths/ (http://www.bikerglory.com/2011/12/gp-wsbk-some-home-truths/)

http://www.bikerglory.com/2012/04/gp-wsbk-one-vision/ (http://www.bikerglory.com/2012/04/gp-wsbk-one-vision/)

http://www.bikerglory.com/2012/10/gp-wsbk-as-predicted/ (http://www.bikerglory.com/2012/10/gp-wsbk-as-predicted/)

Gobert... What a wasted talent.

http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2012/Carmelo+Ezpeleta+Press+Conference+Transcript (http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2012/Carmelo+Ezpeleta+Press+Conference+Transcript)

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2012/Oct/121026c.htm (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2012/Oct/121026c.htm)

I had no idea all this was going on. I haven't watched a Moto Gp or WSBK race yet this year.
I hear Speed is not going to cover F1 next year. I wonder what channels I have to give up to get rid of speed channel?

If I drop Speed, I drop BBC and therefore Top Gear . . . think just gonna keep it  . . .

I found some other stuff to drop that doesn't affect BBC.  Looks like the only thing gonna be worth watching on speed is Gears.

with either cable carrier, in order to keep BBC is to keep speed , foxsports .. . but, I already have fox sports . . . uhm . . .

Well I figured out some stiff to drop which saves me about $20 month.

I might watch some SBK next year even if Haga isn't racing.
Then again I might not.

See, I would only get the WSBK 'short version' or highlights not the entire race . . . since I installed the router, I lost my download ability . . .

In Oz we get Moto GP and F1 (who cares) on free to air. SBK is only on cable, it used to be on free to air years ago and I hope it comes back. I hope the owners clinch a joint deal with Channel 10/One.

In the US, we get NASCAR and NFL on free to air.  With all the Budweiser commercials you can stomach.

Hate Nascar.

Hate NFL.

Hate Budweiser.

I hate Bud too, but they did something cool for Sandy victims, which I have to give them props for...
(http://www.packagingdigest.com/photo/298/298630-Anheuser_Busch_emergency_canned_water.jpg)

http://www.packagingdigest.com/article/522647-Anheuser_Busch_produces_canned_water_for_disaster_relief.php (http://www.packagingdigest.com/article/522647-Anheuser_Busch_produces_canned_water_for_disaster_relief.php)

sorry for the slight threadjack off topic tangent....

I have nothing against them as a company. I even took a tour of one of their breweries and was quite impressed. But the beer is just no good. I can't fathom how they can screw that up.

It isn't good beer for your taste (or mine either). However, read up on the history of brewing in the US, and you'll understand how they're beer evolved into what it is today (along with the other major breweries, as well as America's taste preference for it). It makes complete sense given the conditions at the time (i.e. very little barley was available, but there was plenty of corn). Their beer is good for what they are trying to achieve, and their ability to reliably produce it in the volumes they do is quite impressive.

Interesting comparo of WSBK & MotoGP bikes, and the marketing challenge posed for MotoGP in light of the shrinking gap between them:

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/811/15057/Motorcycle-Article/Backmarker--Production-Bikes-vs--MotoGP.aspx (http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/811/15057/Motorcycle-Article/Backmarker--Production-Bikes-vs--MotoGP.aspx)

oh yes, very interesting article

I apologize if this is a derby:

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/racing/january-2013-motogp-wsbk-story/ (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/racing/january-2013-motogp-wsbk-story/)