Ducati Monster Forum

Articles:
http://www.crash.net/world+superbikes/news/185167/1/ducati_panigale_makes_group_test_debut.html (http://www.crash.net/world+superbikes/news/185167/1/ducati_panigale_makes_group_test_debut.html)
http://www.gpone.com/index.php/en/201210158558/Positive-debut-for-the-Panigale.html (http://www.gpone.com/index.php/en/201210158558/Positive-debut-for-the-Panigale.html)

New bike seems to be almost on pace, right out of the gate.

uh.. aren't all the other bikes, right out of the gate as well? new specs right?
plus 4th? this was the bike that is supposed to crush the competition, not be close behind.

sorry. I'm a big skeptic on the 1199 due to the GP frameless tech.

Raux...keep 1 thing in mind...every other bike out there in that test is an evolution of the previous years machine with telemetry data to base everything off of whereas the Panigale is a revolution in how different it is in many, if not all, aspects. They are using pretty much no previous data and starting from scratch. When Checa rode the bike before, I would guess he wasn't exactly riding it in anger like he probably was today. He is gathering all the info he can for setting that bike up currently and readjusting to the loss of the 6kg penalty weight.

I thought the entire Superstock season was all about gathering this data.

if every rider rode the exact same bike with the exact same settings...sure...

and since when is a superstock machine similar in set-up to a superbike machine?....different electronics package as well as allowances in terms of modification in comparo to each class....

I recall reading that the financials of their Superstock effort had fallen apart.

BTW - More reviews from Superstock:
http://www.worldsbk.com/en/news/46-sst-news/12688-marinellis-view-of-new-panigales-first-racing-steps-.html (http://www.worldsbk.com/en/news/46-sst-news/12688-marinellis-view-of-new-panigales-first-racing-steps-.html)

They can gather all the data they want in Superstock, but I suspect that SBK specs are different enough from Superstock that you'd need a fair amount of testing and tweaking to become competitive. There's a big difference between forks that ship with the bike and the $25,000 superbike cartridge forks on the big machines. $500,000 per bike buys a LOT of complexity ;D

they showed the WSBK spec bike nearly a year ago. I'm sure it's running on test tracks the entire time gathering data.

I'm just saying, that as a 'game-changer' bike I expected more. I mean the 1198R without the 6kg disavantage was winning. so a bike with more power, 'better' handling frame(less), etc. should have at least been at the top if not far and away better.

when did they show the WSBK spec bike a year ago?....

and the 1198R didn't get the 6kg penalty until it had won "X" number of races in comparo to the other manufacturers....and at 1st...it was a 3kg penalty that got upped due to the number of Ducati wins/podiums in the constructors points IIRC....

We all want a pony. But sometimes the process of making a pony is messy ;D

I don't recall whether WSBK has testing restrictions anywhere near the level of MotoGP. It'd be nice if Derby or GM2 had some insight there.

http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2011/10/another-day-another-ducati-1199-panigale-spy-photo/ (http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2011/10/another-day-another-ducati-1199-panigale-spy-photo/)

zooom and desmoquattro are right.  there's a BIG difference between debuting some adjustments for new rules, and debuting an entirely new design at this level.  If you think thisn kind of stuff is easy to get right the first time and win "right out of the gate", then whatever it is you do for a living is the wrong thing and you need to get yourself over there and show them how it's done.   [roll]

[laugh]

PhilB

Ducati 'right out of the gate wins'


888
916
996
999
1098

you could argue the 888 was an upgrade of the 851 and the 996 an upgrade of the 916
that still leaves the 916, 999, 1098 as out of the box designs

Not sure about the other manufacturers, but it's been done.

Sure. And were any of those out of the gate wins (a) in an environment as competitive as WSBK is today and (b) were they preceded by stellar test results?

The season is a long way off.

I'm just saying this design was supposed to be light years ahead of everyone else. yet it's not.

And I'm saying we don't know that yet.

Superstock runs on DOT race tires.
SBK runs on pure race slicks.

Therefore, Superstock setup data means make the beast with two backs-all for a SBK bike.

I've been reading old test results and forums on the 999/1098 shift... lol... oh how history repeats itself

I now respectfully hold my judgement.

LOL! I'm impressed you went and dug those up! Given Ducati Corse's recent history developing bikes in MotoGP, I think some skepticism is warranted. That said, I suspect that developing and racing prototypes is a far different effort than developing and racing production based bikes and I have a little more faith in Ducati to get that right.

I'm telling you: they should've pushed to bring Rossi into WSBK on a Panigale...or Spies for that matter ;D

and with the 916 introduction, they still campaigned the 888. Same as when they introduced the 999, they still raced the 998, and when they introduced the 1098, they still raced the 999. All of these were a year to introduce the machine for homologation and potentially race it in smaller supported classes to put units out there

and they did the same for the 1199. they raced the 1098R this year.

Not just "could argue" -- the 888 was a minor update of the 851.  The 916 was a development of the 888.  The 996 was a minor update of the 916.  The 999 was a development of the 998.  The 1098 was a development of the 999.  NONE of those were "out of the box" designs.  NONE of them were based on a different concept than the bike before it.  Each was a step in a continuous path of development -- like the other manufacturers' bikes in WSB this year are, and like the Panigale is NOT.

Do you have any experience in technology development, in any industry?  Expecting any new tech to start out as better than the highly developed forms of the old tech is simply irrational.  The new idea *always* has to be approximated, tested, developed, and refined -- often for quite a while -- before it is better in practice than the previous tech.  That any new tech is even in the ballpark of the best of the old tech, right out of the box, is amazing and is cause for celebration.

PhilB

888 to 916 disagree. swingarm frame both new tech
998 to 999 disagree. againt swingarm new tech
1098. ok maybe a revamp of the 998 but even then swingarm different

the 1199 had years of development on the gp grid you all said it yourself

correction: portions/aspects of the 1199 were developed in GP, but overall, the bike as a whole is a new untested property and is a completely revolutionary bike in comparison to the 1198R previously raced.

day 2 times...

Pos. Rider Bike Time Diff Prev
1 Tom Sykes Kawasaki 1:57.6     
2 Max Biaggi Aprilia 1:57.8 0.2 0.2
3 Leon Camier Suzuki 1:58.1 0.5 0.3
4 Eugene Laverty Aprilia 1:58.4 0.8 0.3
5 Michel Fabrizio Aprilia 1:58.4 0.8 0.0
6 Carlos Checa Ducati 1:58.5 0.9 0.1
7 Loris Baz Kawasaki 1:59.2 1.6 0.7
8 David Giugliano Ducati 1:59.4 1.8 0.2
9 Josh Waters Suzuki 2:00.2 2.6 0.8
10 Alex Hofmann Aprilia 2:00.8 3.2 0.6


and notes http://www.motomatters.com/results/2012/10/16/2012_aragon_world_superbike_winter_test_.html (http://www.motomatters.com/results/2012/10/16/2012_aragon_world_superbike_winter_test_.html)

I'm pretty torn btwn rooting for Sykes next year or rooting for Checa.

No, none of those were new tech; they were ALL developments and redesigns of the OLD tech.

No, in this case it is *very* different.  The MotoGP bike had a completely different engine, and a frame made of CF for most of those years, then with some aluminum inserts, and very briefly with an aluminum version.  They learned some things, enough to make a decent start on the Panigale's design, but the Panigale itself is still a clean sheet, a very different bike from anything they have built before.

PhilB

Not a great start, Checa's 1199 blew up and oiled down the front straight.

how'd the s1000RR do it's first year?

In manufacturer standings...
2009 - 6th (highest finish: 5th)
2010 - 6th (highest finish: 3rd)
2011 - 4th (highest finish: 3rd)


"God created Ducati to train the faithful."

(http://cf.ltkcdn.net/cheerleading/images/std/126197-383x254-oops-sign.jpg)

Ouch!

It'll be interesting to see how reliable the 1199 turns out in racing. Seems like a pretty radical engine design.

Back in HS/college (late 60s / mid 70s) we used to salivate whenever a really nice Italian car (or chick   ;)) came along, but no one ever seriously considered buying one because we all knew they were very, very high maintenance....

So, nothing's changed in 35 years?  ;D

Considering that this is the first off-season testing, I wonder how much Ducati Corse is sandbagging or simply trying different things to see how the bike would react.  They do have riders new to a bike with brand new setups (and reduced weight).  Even if the Panigale is fast, I wouldn't want to show my cards at the flop.  IMHO. 

why not?....more privateer teams riding your product under race condition if it comes out being the bad-ass outta the box...

nope.

Maybe I are relating it to pre-season in football - you don't run all the plays and formations during pre-season, always save some for the games that count.  Racing is different, I suppose?  

I would think so...how else do you attract the Effenbert's and Pata's and other teams that don't have the direct factory link for their team...they want the best bang outta the box they can buy, and quite frankly, the only 2 manu's that make a pretty much race ready machine out of the box are Ducati with the "R" or "RS" series bikes, and the Priller "Factory" bike....everything else, I think they pretty much tear it down and rebuild the whole bike from scratch almost....I could be wrong on that to a small degree...but more or less, that is my understanding.

Well, I guess it makes sense (cents) to go fast right out of the gate then.  :D

Wonder how much MotoGP (rider) feedback went into this new bike?

only the RSs, and any team worth it's salt will take those apart and reassemble 'em, too.

In a sense, no.  I can't speak for the Italian chicks, but the Italian machines back then were the same as now -- as good as anything else in the world IF you (a) do the recommended maintenance, or close to it, and (b) USE the damn thing and don't let it sit and rot.

I grew up with Alfa Romeos; that's what my parents drove.  Our main family cars for almost 20 years were a pair of 1967 Giulia Super sedans, each of which nearly hit 200K before expiring (one by rust, the other by teenage driver).  I had a 1973 Alfa Berlina in college; bought it with 70K, added another 70K, ran great.  If my roommate hadn't wrecked it, I'd likely still have it.

And I'm over 200K on my Ducati.  Still runs strongly.

PhilB

I'd say Ducatis are as reliable as any other make for general use.

For racing, not so much. From what I've seen (and experienced), they break more often than their Japanese counterparts. There's a reason most club racers (i.e., self funded) don't ride Ducatis.

That was certainly true in the 1098/1198 series, especially for crankshafts and engine cases. But according to the guys at Desmotosport (who service a good number of the club racers around here) they were expecting the 1199 to be more robust and reliable for racing. It'll be interesting to see how Tigre and others get on with it next season, not to mention the folks in BSB and WSBK.

Hopefully that's true...would be great news!  [thumbsup]

I know of quite a few 1098s and 848s with broken cranks, along with my 749, and my old 748 (guy who bought it from me). That's not to say the Japanese bikes don't break...just doesn't seem like they do as much.

Tigre broke quite a few cranks over the last 2 years on the 1198s he's been racing. They've shaved that metal down so much that they tend to break under racing stress, especially where the oil passages are drilled. Some racers are putting Superbike-spec cranks in their machines just to stand up to the stress. Big $$$.