Ducati Monster Forum

from the No Shit department.  but still nice of him to go on record ;)

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2012/Oct/121023boring.htm (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2012/Oct/121023boring.htm)

http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/185404/1/rossi_puts_boot_into_boring_motogp.html (http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/185404/1/rossi_puts_boot_into_boring_motogp.html)
 
 

Gonna sound like fastwin here: get rid of all electronics and get off my lawn!! Damn kids...

Amen

Let me expand. The electronics allow the engineers to work around chassis and suspension issues inherent to the bike. If you remove the electronics, not only are you putting control back onto the riders "traction control is in the twist of the throttle", but you're also putting pressure on the manufacturers to put effort in designing a chassis and motor that handles well.

sucks when you are losing huh, Rossi?

they already do this.  a lot of effort.  remember that this is the pinnacle of the sport; they work themselves to death to find .02 seconds.

i don't disagree with any of this, but electronics aren't going away.  hopefully (unfortunately..?) they get democratized.
 

please.  he's been saying this since 2006.

To me, stop forcing the bikes to be similar is the solution.

there are too many rules put into place to limit the design of the bikes.

tires, limits, etc.

get a second tire manufacturer involved
let them build a overbored short stroke motor that revs to the moon
keep the fuel limits to force them to keep things reasonable
but limit to no electronic rider aids. no abs, no tc, no antiwheelie, no launchcontrol, etc etc.

Formula 1 has got it right. No electronic aids. That's about it.

Egads, I hope not.  That would make computer use awful

 [laugh] [laugh] [laugh]

I have a formula for you...

you get "X" alotment of tires from whatever manufacturer you choose...this alotment allows for a similar # to what they are currently allowed for testing, and a quarterly alotment of the remainder for the race season at 24 tires per round ( which includes slicks and rains )

you have a budget under which to build the bike and your engine alotment for the year of "X"...

you have a specific budget for which to build your chassis development parts and spare parts and other upgrades of "X"

You have a fuel limit of what the CRT's are currently allowed per race condition

You have a spec ECU that is tunable with approved mapping parameters for trim and air and fueling only, ...data monitoring/aquisition for telemetry as a passive function reading only measure with no active traction control.

the rest of wild west go for it and run whatcha brung!

I did not fill in $$$ figures as I don't have a clue what those guys really spend between a CRT team and what a GP or satelite team REALLY spend...so I didn't want to put a lurid figure that is ridiculous...

there was talk in the last decade or so of "team budget caps" in formula 1... my biggest question was "how the hell do you enforce that"?

teams that own their own wind tunnels vs teams that have to rent them?

factory teams vs teams that have to buy their motors?

how would you address something like, for example, mclaren or ferrari selling engineering or materials "services" to the race team at a "loss" to obfuscate the actual cost of those services?

you could never enforce it.  and the cost of trying to would make it a non-starter.

what if HRC had no line item budget b/c Honda corporate decided to make it part of R&D?  rider salaries are Promotional, etc.  and they're going to give internal auditing rights to Dorna?  no way.

rider budget could and should be scaled under a different umbrella...

when I said a budget under which to build the bike, materials cost would be the bigger key in this as labor is such a raquet under which it could get simply ridiculous really quickly.

I think the key to reducing costs is to simplify things, get the electronics under control, and quit changing the rules.

- 1000cc 4-stoke motor
- Spec ecu with standard traction control system and a 19K rev. limit (no other aids, GPS, etc)
- No active suspension
- No ABS
- Min. bike weight (including the rider)
- Engine limit equal to 2 races per motor (so the factories don't just build grenades)
- Tire limit per round, manufacturer open
- 2 bikes per rider limit
- Cost limit on what the factories can charge for motors and chassis, but both must be made available separately. NDA's can be required, and the factories don't have to sell to other factories (in case that is a concern).

My suggestion:

- No brakes, just engine braking
- Vaseline on seats/grips
- Hammer pants
- Bears running wild across the tarmac
- Fire

Two ideas:

Death race--you get traction contol, extra revs, more fuel, etc when you run over the square on the ground that lights up in front of you.  CRT bikes get grenade launches and automatic weapons.  Hellfire missiles for last lap.  Alternative:  everyone gets the extras (revs, fuel, etc), but make their application completely random.  Ex:  Traction control for 3 seconds on, then five seconds off, then 1 second on, then two second off.

Frogger -- CRT riders have to stop their bikes and cross the front straight twice on each lap.  No debris flags if someone gets hit.  And have hte corner workers chuck bricks at the riders. 

In all seriousness, I agree with OP.  When I got my bike not too long ago I had no interest/intention of trackdays, MotoGP, etc.  But through the culture (and things like DMF) I was exposed to racing and thought I'd look into why you all were such avid followers.  I rented FASTER, FASTEST, ON ANY SUNDAY, etc. and thought holy s***, this is awesome!!!  :o  So when I sat down to watch my first live MotoGP (well, not live, a reply of Motegi on Speed) I was ready for some wild competition.  ZZZZZZZZZ!  I ended up spending the hour clipping my toenails and paying bills online.  Where was the fun?

Is there anything else I should be watching instead of MotoGP---Moto2/3, dirtbike,...??---because, frankly, my nails are already clipped and bills already paid.



 

yes.

Too bad the season's almost over....those nails are gonna stay really short for while.

Or, you could find/watch past, great races like Laguna Seca 2008, etc.

But isn't this the essence of racing? Man driving the machine... Instead of man along for the ride?

true, but there's too many electronic aids now

aside from Moto2/3....WSBK, BSB, Isle of Mann TT races, Northwest 200, AMA DSB class or whatever that 600 class is called now.....that should keep you occupied for a while...

Agreed. I can see electronics on the engine, allowing the engine to perform at maximum. The rest should be up to the rider.

Suspension control should only be mechanical, so the pit crew can dial it in manually for each race / track condition. Limit tires during the race, but not during practice between races or in the off season. (hah, practice, what a novel concept)

As Derby said, definately watch Moto2/3.  Also WSBK and WSS if you can catch it.  I'd get a MotoGP subscription and watch all the classics for some entertainment.  I still watch every MotoGP race, but at this point its just to see the final days of Stoner going sideways, if Rossi will pull a miracle, and screaming for Pedro to beat Lorenzo.  I try to make my own entertainment out of each race.  Dovi/Crutch fights are usually good, although Crutch crashes out of every race and ends my fun.

100%

I really prefer knowing that the riders are controlling traction with their hands and bodies rather than a computer doing.

I think traction control is great in a commuter, but I want racers to be skilled drivers -- TC is for people who cannot drive properly.

I would happily accept lower top speeds for more skillful riders.

+1

If you guys really think the riders are not skilled and are just along for the ride  [roll], then I suggest you get on a race track with a modern liter bike (even one with the electronic aids) and see how you do when someone is timing you. Then, imagine the bike had an additional 50-75 hp and weighed 50 lbs less. Modern liter bikes are a friggin' handful to ride at any sort of race pace, even with traction control. I can only imagine what a GP bike is like.

Saying you want to see more skillful rider is just plain silly...the fast guys now would still be the fast guys. Lap times might be a few tenths slower, but the same guys would still be laying them down.

I don't like the electronics, like the GPS-based fuel mapping and such, or launch control (or ABS, which no one uses now anyway). I have no problem with traction control though. As we've seen this year, it still doesn't stop all high sides.

the groups would be tighter and there'd be more passing.

Of course the guys currently riding are skilled.

I never said they were not.

However, I think it's clear that a rider on a ECU controlled bike has a lot more margin for error than a rider on a non-ECU bike. 

It's sort of like having a car that has ABS all your life, and then one day you drive a friend's old car with no ABS -- and you're in the ditch next you know it.

Of course the current crop are skillful riders, but I think there are far more body/mind calculations going on with a non-ECU controlled engine/traction/braking bike is used.

I agree. I'd still expect to see the same 3-5 guys up front though, just hopefully they'd be in a pack. I can't believe some people imply that the current riders are just along for the ride.

Doesn't Stoner usually ride with settings where the TC is less intrusive? I thought I had read that somewhere.

On the non-serious side of this thread this is some funny shit. [laugh] I like the idea of corner workers chuckin' bricks! [laugh] [laugh]

And speaking of stating the obvious in douchelike fashion...

http://www.news.com.au/top-stories/casey-stoner-says-valentino-rossi-is-one-of-the-major-reasons-why-motogp-has-become-boring/story-e6frfkp9-1226503440825 (http://www.news.com.au/top-stories/casey-stoner-says-valentino-rossi-is-one-of-the-major-reasons-why-motogp-has-become-boring/story-e6frfkp9-1226503440825)

i agree that rossi is probably bored with not winning, but i don't think that's the point valentino is trying to make.

i don't think rossi contributed any more to the electronics situation than every other rider on the track.

Again, stating the obvious is a douchelike manner. Rossi has contributed as much as any alien, with possible exception of Stoner that kinda prefers the bike to handle like a bucking bronco. Rossi has any received praise for being able to provide engineers with workable feedback. If this in turn is used to build an electronics package that make the bike smooth like mantequilla, then you can blame Rossi for doing an excellent job.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that MC electronics do the exact opposite...tame (optimize) a bike that, in one or more instances, is on the edge of uncontrollability for one reason or another.  Not sure how one "develops" electronics - as they're a control system, not a bike's mechanical fundamental.  They can be added, removed, damped up, damped down, tested for their effectiveness, etc., but that's not the same as bike development - unless they've become/acknowleged as "a part of the bike" without which it would not work...

If anything, Rossi's contributions to the GPXX needing less electronics would be a better measure of how much he's contributed.

It's too bad Stoner is leaving. With all this trash talking, there could have been some nice battles between the two next year with Rossi returning to a competitive bike.  [coffee]

Stoner would get a lot more post-racing-career respect (from me, at least) if he dug into his own pocket a little and kick-started some of those Oz rider-development programs he whines aren't there...

But that's out of Carmelo's pocket...

make the beast with two backs him... ;D

The GPXX handles like a dog so bad that, try as you may, you will never be able to fix it with any electronics. They have tried swingarm changes, but still not helping. The frame has not changed from the beginning of the year. The only thing they have not tried is the engine configuration. In the end, all factory riders can be attributed to enhancing electronics, mainly because they provide feedback week to week on specific changes they can apply in every corner of a track. The engineers in turn can make small changes through the ECU to go faster.

they've got to change the engine orientation.

http://www.motomatters.com/analysis/2012/10/27/2012_phillip_island_motogp_saturday_roun.html (http://www.motomatters.com/analysis/2012/10/27/2012_phillip_island_motogp_saturday_roun.html)

some snippets:

"...Honda's seamless gearbox, the 650,000 euro unit which allows gear changes to be done much more quickly and without upsetting the bike."

that's $840,000 for just the gearbox. $1.6MM per rider, $3.2MM per two-rider team.

"Honda's gearbox could well be a major contributing factor to Honda's opposition to a spec ECU. If HRC have had to spend a lot of time writing software to deal with the special circumstances created by a seamless shift gearbox, then they would be loath to give up that advantage. There is more to the electronics package than just fuel economy and throttle response, the ECU and its software also have a massive role to play in engine braking, getting the bikes smoothly and without drama into the corners - see the Moto2 bikes for an example of a machine without sophisticated engine braking strategies."

goes further to the idea of "developing electronics"...

Seems the racing would be better if the bikes weren't so smooth into the corners...see the Moto2 bikes.  [coffee]

^^^Yes,  the point is to introduce error, human error.  That is what keeps races close.  Not saying WSBK does not have electronics packages/aids, but Biaggi is a fine example.  He consistently runs wide in corners when pressure is applied to him.  He makes errors that allow others to close gaps.

Errors in GP result in crashes.  We need human error to play a more prevalent role in racing.  Machines and ecus don't know the difference between round 1 and the last lap of the championship that is a must win situation.  That is a level of awareness and pressure that adds excitement to human sport.

^^well stated

+1

So I took everyone's advice and starting watching Moto 2/3.  Much better.  Much.  Only caught from Malaysia on but that was enough to hook me.  Now I just have to learn who the people are.  I find myself rooting for the Malaysian guy (begins w/ "K") in Moto 3.

Quick rules question: why do some people start the race in pit row?

Most likely because they had issues with the bike during the warm-up lap and had to come in for a pit stop.

tire changes, bike issues, or they're over the limit for engine allocation.

While looking for a motorcycle tow service, I googled upon this take on the state of MotoGP:

http://www.citybikerblog.com/2012/11/a-tale-of-two-riders/ (http://www.citybikerblog.com/2012/11/a-tale-of-two-riders/)

For those with click-through aversion, he compares Rossi to current best riders (Stoner, Lorenzo) and praises the latter for not adopting the winning-is-everything attitude.  I gotta say, I completely disagree---the "now I just need to finish 7th or better and I can win a championship" attitude sucks.  Not that I want to see risky riding that endangers people.  But when I watched Marquez (?) push through to 1st place in Moto2 at Valencia when he was however many back and already had the championship locked up was, well, exciting!  If I wanted people safely competing for ties I'd watch soccer.

 

i think the goal for the older guys was to win races, I believe because it was more competitive. We you had multiple guys on the grid with the talent and machinery to win on any given Sunday (and in one case Saturday), you always had to go for broke. When you have at best 2 other guys that are in your league, you don't have to worry as much. Just being consistent will win you the championship. Boils down to the lack of competition, which gets even worse with Stoner retiring. Hopefully Rossi gets back into form and Marquez kamakaze's his way to the top.

consistency wins championships, period.

sometimes that means "consistently win," and sometimes that means "don't crash and takes points where you can".

Agreed, but when you're fighting against 1 other guy like this year consistency means that the guy that's the safest wins. This turns into boring racing. We can go on for hours complaining about it, but it boils down to competition, beyond the manufacturers developing bikes that are rockets on 2 wheels. Go back less than 10 years and count how many different guys were on podiums. Now do the same for this past season. This is not a machinery issue, well not 100%. There is a reason why they removed the rookie rule. The guys fighting it out today in Moto2 have the talent, but not the maturity. More than anything, if I was Carmelo, I would be looking at finding competitive machines for half those guys or at least get them as much seat time on 1K bikes for them to learn. Look at A. Espargo and what he did on the ART. They need talent like that on all the CRT's and not the bottom of the barrel that they have been fielding because the teams have no money to pay for the bigger names that are in Moto2.