Ducati Monster Forum

For background, my 696 is my commuter vehicle. In one year, I put over 10k miles (mostly highway) on it. Recently, I had the ECU reflashed to try to smooth out the low RPM's a bit. Unfortunately when they flashed the ECU, my mileage plummeted from almost 50 mpg to 35 mpg. The mechanic keeps trying to sell me a dyno tune and just have one good map that will give me the mileage while keeping the grin factor. I am not sure that can be done (fun always comes at a cost of gas). So, my thinking is that I would like to have a PC-V where I can switch back and forth between a high-mileage commuting map and a fun for the weekend map.

Does anyone else do something like this with the PC-V?

From what I've read it's possible.

what in the world did they do to the ECU though? if they reflashed it i'm assuming they built a custom map? or did they put on the DP ecu and drop the O2 sensors?

That's a huge drop.

I asked to remove the O2 sensors, not sure what kind of map they put on it. Pretty sure they did not build a custom map, probably just loaded a Rexxer pre-made map.

And yes, the drop in mileage is disappointing, especially since my riding is mostly tame commuting with no opportunities to really twist the throttle.

since the o2 is out.
you can skip the mech and get the PCV and Autotune and create two maps that way.
the 0 PCV map will basically keep the map you have now, and the Autotune can be finetuned as close to lean as possible for highmileage.

Just give Donnie a call late today, use my name, and give him the background info on your bike. Donnie does R&D for Dynojet and will level with you. He might be getting slower right now and may have time to help you with this too if you want to take the bike up there. He's 90+% likely to get it right the first time too.

Thanks Curmudgeon. Hopefully dropping your name will not cause a dropped call...   [cheeky]
I might be able to schedule a day trip in the coming months and trailer the bike there.

Raux, can the PCV read what is currently in the ECU?

no, it just adjusts the fuel spray of the injectors + or - fuel.
if you get the autotune it automatically adjust the pcv map via wide band o2 sensors.

Try it; you'll like it, especially if Nathan answers the phone. 8)

Like you, Donnie is an engineer by trade and training and is a man of few words..., and NO BS. ;) You have to give him all the history up front though. Needless to say, he has all the hardware to do whatever you want. Nathan can order the necessary pieces.

IMO, the only thing the 'switching between 2 maps' feature is good for is evaluating map changes while riding.

I've not heard a convincing argument for having a 'fuel economy' map and a 'power' map.

Brad Black has done a lot of dyno tuning, he'd have some good input, I think.

I think it would be interesting to see a full 14.6 AFR map
vs
the power map that dips down into 13's and 12's

I had read somewhere on the Internet at 14.2 was considered lean for E10 ethanol gas, and 12.6 is considered rich.

Speeddog, when i calculate the difference in the cost of gas vs the miles that i put on, there would be approx $400.00 per year difference based on mpg variance. So something like the PCV would pay for itself if I could get the results i am looking for (at least in theory). If the bike was not my primary source of transportation, I would agree with you totally... Just trying to be money conscious.

14.08 is Stoic for E10 (true E10)

edit: a cool read
http://books.google.com/books?id=r4CcIjtDU5QC&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=what+is+the+stoic+afr+for+e10&source=bl&ots=gr-bAXyheq&sig=rRQhMpg0dhczZU4Cv4304on7FSU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8AGRUK_0F5Ka8wSu1IGgBQ&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=what%20is%20the%20stoic%20afr%20for%20e10&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=r4CcIjtDU5QC&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=what+is+the+stoic+afr+for+e10&source=bl&ots=gr-bAXyheq&sig=rRQhMpg0dhczZU4Cv4304on7FSU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8AGRUK_0F5Ka8wSu1IGgBQ&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=what%20is%20the%20stoic%20afr%20for%20e10&f=false)

Thanks for the link. Interesting book, lots of information. Looks like I will be breaking out the credit card.

If your exhaust has removable baffles, you can have a map for each setup.

Interesting idea, hadn't thought of that. Not sure if removable db killers do much to change the backpressure, but need to do some research. I have noticed more popping on deceleration without them.

db killers do make the bike richer.

Track bikes that are required to meet sound level tests at some tracks and add killers run richer.

Are you saying that you can do both mileage and power in one map?

That's what I'm saying.

Freeway cruise or around-town 35-45mph throttle openings are pretty small, 20% or so.

is it that significant that it would affect performance?

most db killers affect performance.  i have dyno runs for s4rs, gt1000 and bmw k1200r with and without on my site.  less air moving in a non airflow measuring system will mean a richer mixture.  it's just chemistry.  good use of a second map function.

the "one map for economy and one for power" thing is just crap sprouted by make the beast with two backswits.  on a n/alpha system you have them leaner at low throttle and richer at high throttle.  simple.  do you need max power when cruising?  no, because then you wouldn't be cruising, you'd be accelerating.  as long as it's not missing or melting, it's fine.

how did ducati save fuel with the gp bikes?  they leaned them off at part throttle, like what you use in the middle of a corner when you don't need much power.  i don't understand why it was so newsworthy, but apparantly no one had thought of that before.  must be a race bike thing and not needing to be well tuned at part throttle.  allegedly.

i really try to keep my mouth shut when i lack understanding of a subject, pity other people don't as well.

play with ignition timing too, that brings up the fuel economy.

what map did they put in it?  surely it's not a good one if the economy dived that much.  if it's a rexxer let me know the name of it and i'll have a look out of interest.

I never really understood the whole two map thing either.  The only time it made sense was having a more tame rain map for the really powerful bigger bikes and touring bikes.
My custom map on my S2R800 with PCIII is mapped so when I get above 50% throttle the bike really comes alive.  If I really need gas mileage I can just be easy on the bike and there is still enough power.  Now I have yet to do that on a tank because I can never seem to stay off the throttle.  [evil]  I get about 40mpg and consider my riding somewhat aggressive.  I know I can get a lot more if I didn't accelerate so fast off of lights and what not, but where is the fun in that.   ;D

The Nemesis ECU I have on the M900 also has the 2-map capability which I actually found pretty useful while playing around with the mapping: Stock map for regular running and warm-up etc, and the map to test as the secondary map. If the test map was crap, I could just swap back to the stock map and go on riding.

Other than that, I´ve never used this function.

Brad,
wouldn't a full map at stoic give cleaner burning and better fuel economy? although i would assume it would also run hotter reducing longevity of the motor?

That's what I've done on my Microtec ECU on my S4.

Good thing you have the Microtec. Should be functionally about the same as a Nemesis, I hear, but without the Nemesis misfire which is really dreadful :-X

If anyone has that problem with a Nemesis, my M900 finally works almost OK after I fitted the "big" ignition coils from the ST4s. But I would prefer a Microtec [drool]   

Thanks for the response Brad. Unfortunately, I do not know which map they installed. I have Quat-D titanium slip-ons and stock intake, so I would assume they used whichever map would be appropriate for that setup.

Funny, when I first considered flashing the ECU, I thought I would get a map that was exactly as you describe; efficient at low throttle position, and more responsive at higher throttle position (kinda like the premise of only adding nitrous at WOT). But since the reflash, I have been "disagreeing" with the techs about what the mapping should be... which is why I decided to ask about using 2 maps. The techs lead me to believe that there is no such thing as a map that is efficient at low demand and responsive at high demand. I mean, I know when I want more power. And when I do, I will twist the throttle to get it. The thought of running rich while cruising at 4,500 RPM is ludicrous.

In any case, thanks for your assurance. Sounds like I just need to be more assertive with the techs and more specific as to what I am looking for. Or maybe get a Rexxer User.

I fail to see how a Rexxer user could help you. You can't edit your fuel map with it.

Do you know what the map is? Where did you have it done? Ask for specifics, you paid for it.

I'd probably skip the advice of these techs and get the PCV + auto tune and do it yourself.

The autotune another option. However, does it give the user the type of control over the AFR as being described in this thread? Lean or stoic while cruising, moving toward rich at 60%+ throttle? Or does it assume that the user only wants max power at all times? I am asking because I don't know...

This sounds like the solution that I am looking for.

since you have no o2 sensors with your ecu
you will have complete control of the afr table with the autotune

^
this

the autotune has a table with the same rpm and throttle opening breakpoints as the pcv fuel map.  at each of those points you can set the desired air/fuel ratio.  some may run a blanket 13.2 or so, which will make the bike run nicely, but you can take it back to 14.2 or even leaner at low throttle openings (especially if doing both cylinders individually) and it'll be fine.  and there's around 10% difference, which can mean a similar increase in fuel economy when cruising sort of thing.

i generally run them at 12.8 at wot and taper back to 14.2 or so from there.  but if you start at 13.2 across the whole lot you then have a starting point.  it's about procedure as much as numbers.

Thanks Brad, especially for confirming the numbers that I suspected would be good numbers. I notice that you change the AFR based on throttle position. Would you ever change the AFR based on RPM or gear position?

Question for the forum... Would it make sense to have a map for E10 and a map for regular gas?

IMO, absolutely yes.

Thanks. This is the direction I am probably going to go.

Had the bike on the dyno twice, and it seems like the techs only care about WOT. Maybe I am just talking to the wrong techs... or they are trying to bait me for another run on the dyno... or maybe I just want "It All". Oh well, enough pondering. Time to warm up the credit card.

PC-V and Autotune arrived today. Woohoo!