Ducati Monster Forum

So, my 695 has a lot more lean angle than many other bikes I've owned. Now, I'm not the most naturally talented rider in the world, but I am committed to getting better. Tonight I donned the leathers and took the 695 to a parking lot to really work on some cornering.

I think I'm doing all the right things:

1) Breaking done early
2) Finding the right gear
3) Looking through the turn
4) Delaying the apex
5) Hanging off (chin first, butt last)
6) Rolling on the throttle and accelerating out of the turn

Though I feel like I've made significant progress on cornering - especially after tonight, I still don't think I'm close to knee-dragging territory. I measured my chicken strips after my practice and had 3/4" on the right side, and 1" on the left. I know it is subjective, and I'm not really giving you a lot of information, but is that a reasonable amount? How much further do I have to go before I need to start worrying about enough tread? Also, how much further do I need to go to get the knee down? (I'm 6' by the way). I feel like in order to get my head down low and to the inside of the handlebar, I have to scrunch my body up.

I'm not obsessed with chicken strips or anything, but they are at least some kind of gauge as to how well you're cornering.

BTW, I know it'd be much easier to diagnose if you could see a video. Perhaps I'll take one and add it later.

Is the goal really to get your knee down, or is the goal to corner better?

By the same token, is the size of chicken strips as important as how quickly you get around the track? Aren't they just a rough guide to how much lean angle is being left on the table? (If that's the case, I'm guessing the answer to your second question is "3/4' on the right and 1' on the left.")

Sure, the fastest riders often put their knees down, but aren't they doing that because otherwise they'll run out of lean angle and won't be able to go faster?

I'm no expert on any of this, just asking.

I want to be able to put my knee down in a safe way, with a healthy margin for error. It is a goal for me. Of course, with practice I am getting faster through the corners, and pushing the bike further over. Just wondering how far off I am from pushing the bike to it's limit, and the rider to his. ;-)

Sounds like you might be ready for a track school.

<my.02cents>  It sounds like you are too preoccupied with things that shouldn't matter too much on the street.

Keep in mind that some tire profiles will allow you to drag hard parts before clearing the whole strip.

Just ride, and stop looking at your tires.  It will happen eventually.  Baby Steps.

If you really have to get rid of the strips, and get your knee down ASAP.  Get that done at the track first.

Being in such a rush might cost you in repairs, and cause injuries.   </my.02cents>

+1 because getting your knee down on the street is just silly  ;)

that said, you still should be able to lean your bike over more than having 1" of strip on a side.

Thanks all. FWIW, I don't intend to be riding to work dragging knees. Out here in North Georgia, it's actually a reasonable goal on the exquisite mountain roads.

I will keep practicing, and continue to NOT actually be obsessed with dragging knees, and await a track day.

I used to practice in the cul-de-sac at the end of my street before they built houses there. I'd just start slow and end up at about 35mph going around it. It's the easiest way to get rid of the chicken strips and pose as an elite track star to all your friends.

 [thumbsup] right on.

now, given the assumption that your 695 has the same sort of profile on the rear tire as my 620, you can safely throw the bike over a little bit more than you are already (of course, given that you understand lean angle and corner speed).

I've gotten myself into a couple of corners hot where my thought process was "trust the bike..." and press on the inside bar more in order to get me through.  and, at the time, it was a bit of a pucker moment, but gauging chicken strips alone, I still obviously have some tread left on the side.

since then, I don't pay much attention to it, and just focus on being smooth and controlled through every corner I take, instead of being the 'fastest'  ;)

Why do many people assume that the desire to improve cornering speed/ability, hang off, and even drag knees where appropriate is some sort of desire to pose? For me, it is just one visible sign my bike is still capable of more than I currently am. The desire to bring that ratio closer to 1, shouldn't be seen as some desire to appear to be some kind of track god, it is simply a desire to be a better rider.

For the record, I expect that even when I do eventually get a knee down, I will still probably have some tread left, as getting a knee down, by definition, means the bike requires less lean angle.

Does anyone know how much lean angle is left with about an inch on either side of the tires? Should I, at this point, if my form were correct, be able to touch a knee down? A real answer to that question is all that I am looking for. If the answer is yes, then I will know that my form is off. If it is No, then I will know that I need to push the bike over a little more.

By the way, thanks everyone for weighing in on this subject. I value the board's collective feedback immensely.

I imagine it would depend on a number of things like type of tire, tire pressure, ride height, etc...

The short answer is probably not. If you have that much left on the edges. I see guys go out for their first or second trackday and they use the whole tire and still can't get their knee down. There are several factors to this equation and I'm talking about riders on smaller rear tires like what you are using. I'm assuming you are running a 160 rear? Now for the longer answer ;D
There is no 100% correct answer here, but from what you are describing and the bike you are on, I'm guessing that you have to lean more to get a knee down. Hanging off is crucial to fast cornering. Until you adjust your brains "oh shit" sensor (lean angle), you will have a hard time with the concept. When you are hanging off far enough, you will feel like a monkey. You won't be able to get a knee down until you hang off, and lean far enough.
Now, about those factors. The Monster in stock form is not set up to lean hard, or corner fast. Chances are real strong that you will scrape hard parts before you get your knee down. The bike can be set up to do that but it will take some work. I'm not saying that it can't be done but odds are, you will scrape bits first. If you are really tall, you might actually scrape your knee first but it's going to be hard to figure this out on the street. That brings me to my next point. If you really want to improve your cornering skills, do a trackday. One trackday is worth ten years of street riding. Most trackday organizations will have an intro program where you can follow instructors around the track and ask questions about your form. It's really hard to corner hard, work on your form, carry speed, etc. on the street. For you to corner hard enough to scrape your knee, you are not riding safe for street conditions. Also, it's nearly impossible to give you advice on your form without seeing pictures or video. I've helped a lot of newer riders on the track with their form, but it's because I can watch them from the corners or follow them on a trackday.

I'll attach a photo of a guy I race against. He's tall and he's on a short bike. I call him Xaus (WSBK racer who has a similar style), because of how he hangs off. I'm attaching this link to show you what you would likely have to do to scrape your knee with your bike in stock form. Notice that he is hanging waaaaay off and the bike is more upright. I'm faster than him through all of the turns but it sure is fun to chase him down because this is the view I get. (until I pass him) 
http://momentumphoto.net/events/cra/08jun/220/images/CRA08_BIR06_0229.jpg

EDIT: ok that picture won't attach so just click the link...I can't get pics to attach ???

 If you look at photos of me on my monster in the same turn, I am leaned over way more because I don't have his reach. His bike is more upright than me therefore he has more contact patch. Dragging your knee is not necessary to go faster or have proper form but it will indirectly do just that. The reason is that you use it as a gauge. It becomes muscle memory like closing your eyes and touching your nose. Once you touch your knee down and get comfortable with it, you then reset your brain's lean sensor and actually feel how far you are over. You know when your knee is down how much farther you can go based on that muscle memory. Most of us racers just touch down our knee then we pick it up a little because pucks are expensive to wear out! :(

I don't think so.  There are too may variable to that to be a good measure.  For a given corner, you speed, rate of lean, amount of hanging-off, brake points, throttle opening, etc...all affect "chicken stripe"

You're putting too much thought into chicken strips/dragging knee, it's a recipe for disaster.

Worry about being smooth and maintaining proper form, everything else is just an empty meaningless benchmark.

Do what I do. Use some WD40 and spray all over both tires paying special attention to the rear. This will lessen the traction and cause you to effortlessly 'slide' around corners, which is the fastest and coolest way to do it.

Ok, don't do that. It's silly.

My 2 cents - If you have no unused surface of your tire and you are mainly street riding, chances are you are riding way too hard for the street. That's already been pointed out. That said, it is a goal of many riders to eliminate 'chicken strips' and 'get a knee down'. There's nothing wrong with wanting to do that. It will come with time. Saying don't bother trying to get your knee down to a motorcyclist is like saying don't do wheelies.

I would just go to the track and ride, don't worry too much about technique, just get a feel for things and learn how to 'appropriately' trust your bike and your own abilities and it will all come with time. Take a course when you feel ready, this will help with the 'trust' thing.

I know guys that can go round in tight circles with their knee scraping with one hand off the bike all day long, it sure is pretty impressive. At least to me. But then again most of these guys are on R6's or R1's, which are arguably a little more appropriate bikes for this kind of riding.

Hit the track.  It's the best place for this.  Take a look at the picture below, starting from the left is my first track day, moving towards the right is a handfull of track days after.

(http://www.mysimplelife.com/img/motorcycles/race_track_comp.jpg)

After a while you'll get comfortable w/the bike and it's lean angle and you'll be able to really throw the bike over as in this picture:

(http://www.mysimplelife.com/pix/albums/userpics/pahrump_ontrack/LA5Q7753.jpg)

Do this in BABY STEPS, if you jump the gun you'll more than likely eat shit.  Focus on your body position and your corner entry speed, the knee on the ground and the lack of chicken strips will follow.

GL!

Thank you guys so much for the encouragement. I'm not in any big rush to eat sh!t, so I'll take an incremental approach. [moto]

If you're only worried about chicken strips just buy some race tire take offs and wam-o chicken strip free.

As MsI stated, time to hit the track man!

Dude, couldn't agree more, but what happened between pics two and three? I've noticed the new bodywork...

You'll also notice a new helmet between pics 1 and 2  :)

Angeles Crest Hwy is what happened, coming out of blind turn I hit a rock that was directly in my line.  Soon after that I converted the bike to track trim only and sold all the stock body work.

+1 I've only been to one track day so far and it made a huge difference on my cornering ability. On top of that I would say make sure your bikes suspension is set up for your weight. That made a big difference for me as well, as far as how it handled throught the turn. Now I have zero Chicken strips but I didn't get the knee down.

Man, sorry to hear about that! You get away unharmed?

Luckily I did - just bruised up.  [thumbsup]

I know how ya feel wonked!  i started a 2000 mile trip with an new tire and barely used any of it.  the chicken strps were about 3/4 to 1"  and damn i was riding hard  [evil]  i learned from this that the chicken strip meant nothing!!!  as i rode for sometime more i found my groove  right know now i am running about 0" of un-used tread on the left side and about 1/2" on the right ---- NOW i am ready for a track day.  good luck with your skills.   ;D

Pan

Or buy a sandpaper and scrub the sides of those tires,there's your chicken stripes. [beer]

As many people have pointed out - and I really like the way PanDuc makes the point here - chicken strips are something you get rid of by focusing on something else.

And in order to focus on that something else, you need to lose any obsession with the chicken strips. They just don't matter (tho I appreciate and applaud the OP's explanation for why they matter a little to him).

Here's another way to think about it that might help. If you were on the track, and another rider on a similar bike overtook you and pulled away, and then when you both returned to the pits you checked and his chicken strips were wider than yours, what could you conclude from the strips?

Here's a suggestion: that he was a better rider than even his superior speed indicated (and perhaps was just cruising on a fresh tyre).

Well, I've adjusted the tire pressure in my bike to 36 front and rear, I suspect that to eliminate a little of the squirreliness I was getting in the curves. I'll practice more later this week and see how much that helps.

Again, many thanks to all who've contributed with a limited data set. I will also post some video.

That's seems to be on the high side.  Let us know how you like it.

That's actually down some (I was running at close to max PSI). What do you guys run?

 :o  Max PSI is the limit before the tire manufacturer denies any implied warranty on their products!
For the S4RS, manual states (approx) 2.1 bar for the front and 2.3 bars for the rear.  That translates (loosely) to 32psi for the front and 33psi for the rear.

I tried running the suggest manufactured pressure on my S4RS and it the bike felt like shit.  It wobbled and bounced all over the place.  I went back to 36 F/R and all the wobbles and pogo stick feeling went away.

Having said that, I'm running Pilot Powers and I weight 215lbs.  So for ME a higher pressure works and feels best.

Before your step 1, you can shift your weight to the inside corner and it will be easier to get your knee down.
Sounds like you can really use a track day but then you might be selling your monster once you are hooked   ;)

The width of the tire that you're not using is not a sign of how awesome you are (or aren't as the case may be), I'd be more concerned that they were different than how wide they are. If you have somewhere to practice, try to make sure your position is a close as possible on both sides and work on that.

I'm running 30.5 in the front and 29 in the rear on the 675.

Bridgestone BT-002 PRO (Soft in front and medium in rear)

I'm weighing in at 180lbs and I run 31 front and 32 rear, seems to work well for me. But I also had the suspension set up for my weight. Which also made a huge difference in the cornering.

I am a noob to riding, but I take pride in how well I have learned to corner. My friends keep asking how I do it. You have to do what feels natural and ride within your abilities.

I know how to drive my car on a track and those same principals are used when riding. So apply the principals and stay within your comfort zone and work your way down. No rush.

Note in this pic, the rear brake lever is grounding
(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm143/Tarugo996/lean1.jpg)

Knee down on the Monster
(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm143/Tarugo996/lean2.jpg)

My strips are actually growing - due to a change of rear tire.
I finished the stock Bridgestone Battlax 014 and put on Metzeler Sportec M3, which seems to have a rounder profile. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I guess the flatter 014 would allow better grip up to a certain point, where the M3 will allow even further lean angle at the cost of grip (the kind of grip that makes a noob like me more secure).

Point is that tire profile count as well. My strips were 1/3 and changed to 2/3 without really changing speed or anything else (I think).
Now I'm working on all the other factors to improve my cornering. It seems I now have a tire that requires better skills than the old one did. In return it will make the bike/rider team faster if we're up for it.

What I know is that the strips will not be gone while on public roads.

Holy smokes!!  [thumbsup]  You are jamming on that thing!  [clap]

Capo - damn impressive [thumbsup].

damn capo

Man! that looks awesome! wish i can get my form like that! [thumbsup]

Grow some long spider like legs. Bam done deal.

When I attempted to track my monster, my pipes, and rear sets dragged before I was close to a knee. But even if I can drag knee I normally don't, it's just a gauge for lean angle not something I strive to perform.

Track day baby...good times. I don't know my S2R is stock right now, anyone think it can handle a track day?. I had a modded R6 few years back, which I brought out a good amount to the track and that was a blast.

cg

Yea, I have been wondering the same thing about my S2R 800.  It has done really well in my last few 400+ mile mountain rides with my friends and their rockets, but I wasn't sure how it would hold up to a day at the track (which would be my first).  I am leaning toward a school that provides bikes and instructions.  That might even be a manditory thing, I haven't really researched it yet. 

hey wonked where do you live in North GA? Im Around Chattanooga.

I would like to ride sometime. First my knee has to recover from surgery, and i have to get some new sliders for my leathers.

when i first started riding i was aware of my wear on my rear tire. It seemed as i thought about it in a corner i couldnt improve my lean angle. As i rode more and more i learned to think about NOTHING but your cornering.  learn to hang off the bike more.

Does anyone else hate the knee cutouts, or lack there of, on the monster tank?

Any bike can do a track day, it's just how fast the bike's potential is with you on it.  To be totally honest, mods other than hp gaining ones (only help really on the straights) don't help much until you get to at least a quick beginner group pace.  If you need suspension work, it will show up on your tires (you'll get what's called cold tear).  Sure, those inline 4 liter bikes will go plaid in front of you on the straights, but you can't win a track day.  Go at your own pace.  It will be a great way for you to learn YOUR bike.

Trucinduc, I'm in Atlanta. There are legion of us here.

haha my last track day my ride along instructor told me, "You won that session, you're moving to B Group next session."

I WON! :D  [moto] Then I lowsided and messed up my track bike :(

I always win at track days.  The last time I went, I won the privilege of having to buy new tires for the next outing.   [moto]

Hahaha... I know everyone is tired of hearing about my throttle issue, but for the first turn, the guy behind me said I looked awesome.  Then the next turn, I crashed.

ok wonked, i think the atlanta group and the chattanooga group, all 5 of us, should get together for a ride sometime. How far do you have to go to get to twisties?. i go about half a mile, lucky me.

oh and i wish i had my scooter here to take a pic of the rear tire. its worn almost to the edge, as far as i can go cause i drag the hell out of the center stand. It throws up some nice sparks though.

Please explain? (I'm up for a complete suspension job)

Here's a great resource: http://www.feelthetrack.com/tire-wear.html


I think your best bet and cheapest solution is to have a pro set up your suspension at a track day. Here it's about $40 for him to set it all up for you and work with you all day if you have any adjustments needed. Dave Moss (link provided earlier) has guides you can purchase for setting up your suspension.

Cool  [thumbsup] I'll take photos after my next(first) trackday and show my guru.

Thanks!