Ducati Monster Forum

So the great debate in my household was once again brought up today.. I crashed about 8 months back, still a little unsure of what happened. My mate instantly said it was due to the wet and going too fast, I think it was oil.. Just sharing to grab some opinions.


Down goes the Monster.. 659 crash + Close call with car (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-Tf8-DOmos#)

Low speed high side off my 620 a few months back. I flew and bike stayed. Opposite your accident. Glad you're ok. I hit a small puddle and that did it.  Also, the (no) traction on the old front tire may have been also been to blame?  Did you possibly hit the paint in road?

Se ya over in riding techniques.

The answer, 100%   no argument is...

























...you ran out of traction.

 [cheeky]

I saw this posted somewhere a few months back?

It is hard to tell in videos but it seems to me from the video it was a case of not riding to the conditions.

Likewise mate, the front wheel was definitely the one that brought me down, I had originally though oil but probably not


Only ever been on youtube unless you've come across it on netrider, think my mate posted it up. Thanks I agree, should have been going much slower.


[thumbsup]


Guess so lol, thanks.

It doesn't look like you are doing anything too aggressive. I ride like that in those conditions all the time.  How long had you been riding that session when you fell? Cold Tires?

This has always driven me crazy. If you are riding so fast on the STREET that you have to worry about your tires being "heated up" you are flat out riding too fast ON THE STREET.

Just my thoughts.

Mark

How long since tires were changed? Hard rubber can do that.
You did seem to have very little lean angle, from the camera view.

Interesting that you have a video of it - I've never had the opportunity to replay my wrecks but wish I did.  It looks like the street was wet, recent rain.  How long had it been raining?  Around here auto oil drips and exhaust, rubber, coolant will build up over long periods of dry.  Then when it finally does rain the first hour or so all the accumulated fluids will wash up and make the roads very slick until it has rained enough to rinse the roads clean again.  I watched to see if you might have touched the front brake but couldn't tell from the video.  I am very light on the front brake in fresh rain and diesel spills etc.  Tire condition as mentioned plays into it too.  Proper inflation, condition of the tread and rubber - that is hard to know.  I had a wreck very similar to that and I've been extra careful in the rain ever since.

to me it looks like you were steering into the turn instead of counter steering.

not sure if that was the cause of the traction loss or not but working against the bike's nature when traction is already limited can lead to unpredictable results.

This looks like it to me. Recent rain after a period of dry = very slick roads. Also looked like you were going a bit too fast, but not excessive...could just be the video perspective too.


Not true. Even street tires need to warm up a bit, especially if they're supersport tires (i.e. Pilot Powers). They don't need to warm up like a race tire does, but a cold street tire does have less grip than a warm one.

just a little bit of comedy, but when the guy asks are you okay, you go

"im fine, have me jacket on!!!"

ok, back on topic.
Weather looks like it was a quick shower and it was really humid? When was the last time it rained>
How may miles are on those tires? 
Is it fine grain asphalt that you are riding on?

Usually on super fine asphalt, they make it smooth so its quiet to drive on, but a flash rain will cause it to be SUEPR slick since the water soaks ina nd pulls the oils to the surface and it sits on top. To me, you are riding to fast for those kinda just rained conditions.

^What he asked.^


Since your ok and all...im glad you crashed on film so we can have the opertunity to disect it!!  (wish i had my lowside on tape >:()

Also fresh pavement is slick with oil (tar is a petroleum product after all) 

Im not going to tell you you were riding too fast because I know my gopro videos are misleading esp when its set to the fast frame rate.  (and I drive that fast if not faster)

As for the tire being warm/cold...thats still a legit concern on the street.  My 696 had a BT054 on it, and if the temp was below 50, it would do roll-on burnouts in 1st just by whacking the throttle.  So I wouldnt count out cold hard rubber+wet road+speed...

No matter what, glad your here to talk about it!

Quite hard to tell due to the position of the camera - bit it looks like you might have chosen a poor line. There's an area to the right, near the center at that runs through the course of that turn, that appears to be the outer edge of where the auto tires have been running. In cases like that the autos push all the crap towards the outer edge. So that strip would be wetter and have more crud, oil, etc etc than the sections where the car tires had been running.

Can't really tell if you hit that or were still in the car tracks.

See that long shiny patch in your line just before you go down? May be oil or water, either way, keep clear of anything like that in the wet (or dry for that matter).

Too fast, wet road, cold tires.

What's a Ducati 659?

+1

my thoughts as well although I don't want to accuse you of that for certain as it may have been your bars turning once you started to lose traction.

If you did happen to steer into the turn and touched your front brake at all, you're very likely going to wash out in those conditions.

Definitely one of the factors I see. Other is speed. The perceived (in the video, at least) lean angle is more than I would have had in similar conditions. Of course, I'm a bit of a chicken shift in inclement weather (has kept me upright so far).

That you bounced right up, and really didn't hit anything (you or the bike) is pretty good karma.

Whats on the back tire? Looks like it has the label still on it, the center-line wasn't just painted and still wet was it?

^^ This.  

^^ This too.

Its an Australian market learner-legal special, a detuned, reduced capacity M696.

Yeah.. Whats that white stuff on your rear tire? From 0:15 - 0:21

The bike actually just skimmed the big white barrier.. I went up and touched it just after and white chalky crap got all over my fingers.


Definitely will in the future, thanks!
Thanks mate, I was going a little fast.. the zone was 60km/h (bend rated for 35) I was going 60-65.


Was on my way to work.. at 730am after some rain 5-630am I think. Had gotten about 4km. Definitely cold tires.

As for the rest of you guys, thanks for watching and giving your opinions. Thanks! ;D

Good thing the dude in the car was paying attention.

Looks like the consensus is wet roads + cold tires = no bueno.

Glad you're ok.

"Cold tyres", crap, unless it was minus 20 deg. 

Sheesh mate, somebody upstairs was looking out for you that day.

I shuddered the 5 times I watched it!

I would go with the too fast for the conditions, plus oil on road theory too.

Glad you got up okay. What damage was done to you, your gear and the bike?

GK

Thanks mate, I do believe so. The pants I was wearing where Levi's, deep abrasion all over my knee, to this day if I bump it hard enough it swells up and really hurts. Jacket held up absolutely wonderful but then again I only put my left arm down, so much so I still sold it to a friend (putting on the kgs lmao) Boots where OK but I burnt them on the pipe so they look weird, traded up for some alpinestars smx plus.. helmet I think hit the barrier too, there was a chip out of it but I didnt feel a thing on the head. Sadly had to fork out the excess on the bike cracked the steering lock right off the frame, bent bars, front axle grinded down.. termis surprisingly had nothing on them. Oh and the crankcase needed replacing too.. One thing for sure.. is if I go down again I will be having the bike transported to my house THEN to a repairer, ended up in a holding yard costing me 200 for trasportation and another 200 for holding it for 2 weeks as the shop is backed up.

Thanks ung!

I'll beg to differ. I can feel a difference once temps are consistently below 45 F. But we digress

I don't think it's a digression, true enough on dry twisties going hard, you'll get better grip with warm tyres , but in this situation, 60k (35mph) and a wet road?

Glad you made it through OK!

Hard to say, but my experience, when the front washes it has a tendency to turn in.  
I generally find when this happens "standing the bike up" a little takes care of it, push the outside grip to reduce bike lean angle and hang off the bike a bit more to keep the turn rate.

I see a lot on this thread about cold tires and avoiding gunk in the road, riding in the car tire tracks.  Attention to these aspects is important, but let's face it, wet roads are just unpredictable.  Even riding in the car tracks is no guarantee, good traction in one spot, covered with oil from an earlier accident at the next.

It doesn't look to me like the lean angle is too aggressive, or going all that fast.  It does look to me like the rider turns in and gets right on the throttle - good form in good traction. In wet road riding, though, I tend to handle the bike much more gingerly, slow and lazy to turn in while coasting, neutral throttle just maintaining to the apex, and then smooth acceleration as I'm actually picking the bike up coming out of the turn.  Maybe not the fastest way around, but where I can't predict the traction I like to keep a bit of margin.

 [beer]

Ok then.

Wet road + _______ = no bueno.

X + y = no bueno

Agree or disagree with the variables its the same result bub. He asked for conjecture, the man got it.

BTW, OP, do you always ride with a camera recording? I mean, you were riding to work. I don't know if you're commute is an exciting one. But I'm guessing you video record as an insurance safety net. True?

I do most of the time, unless I'm in a hurry and forget.. I stated that I had the footage when dealing with the insurance company but they didn't ask for it, I use mine for all purposes.

You explained it much better than I did, but this is what I believe I see as well, based on the video.

But again, it's really hard to tell for sure simply based on the video.

Glad you're OK.  Thanks for posting the vid.  Aside from the fact that you were riding on the wrong side of the road ;D, were you trying to brush off some power going into a slick curve?  Looks like you squeezed the clutch a bit just before you lost it.  Might you have tapped the rear brake as well?   

I liked your video so much that I looked at it again on my office computer instead of my cell phone.  Sure looks and sounds like you broke rear traction after you applied the clutch as you leaned into the curve.  That could put you down pretty quick on a slick road.

Thanks mate, when I touched the clutch I just downshifted with a little blip. I didn't tap the rear brake at all as I ride with the my heels resting on the pillion extender part of the rearset with my toes on the peg, I hate the duckfeet look lol. Though as FrankenDuc stated, wet roads are just unpredictable. Whatever the cause may be it will definitely make me think twice when riding on slick roads.

What I like about your video is that you can see some crtical inputs fairly clearly.  Wish I had video like this of my wrecks.  I wasn't very clear in my earlier post, the clutch move that I noticed was a second after the downshift blip you mentioned - all seems well at that point before you begin the curve.  

What I'm talking about happens right at 0:02.  You might have to replay those few seconds several times over (that is if you can stand watching your bike go down over and over  ;D) but if you watch the fingers on your left hand, you'll see a slow but firm squeeze on the clutch lever.  Looks like it goes past the lever free-play and is well into the range to disengage the clutch just nanoseconds before you go down.  Again, the critical moment is when you're in the curve between 0:02 and 0:03 - begin curve, squeeze clutch lever, lose traction, engine revs up a bit, clunk, and you're sliding.  Slick conditions and it all happens in an instant.  

Again, I wish I could replay my wrecks this way.  I hate mysteries especially when they put me in the hospital.  I might be wrong but I still wanted to bring your attention to what I'm seeing there.  I've been riding pretty hard over 30 years and still fight the almost instinctive reaction to grab the clutch when things get a bit sketchy.  Thanks again for posting the video.


Added:  Crap, I don't know now.  Looks like you might have let go of the clutch lever altogether after you downshifted.

I apologize for the extremely late reply, I must have missed it somehow. I've studied the footage many times and noticed my fingers tighten up after you stating this, I remembered reading something about a survival reflex (In a great book on riding by keith code) and can now associate this instance with one. I do remember the bike feeling as if it where on ice for the fraction of a second before I went down, I felt this and my grip tightened up automatically, Its something they teach you in superbike school to "overcome" in a sense. As other instances of the survival reflex are not so harmless, e.g. the "When in doubt, GAS IT!" phrase used to combat a potential highside. I think the main thing I did wrong was not adapt to the conditions, the corner may have had trucks sitting in traffic dropping all kinds of crap for all I know, one thing I am happy about is it didn't discourage me from riding in the wet, when the bike was being repaired I had anxiety about it, funnily enough I picked it up in pouring down rain and within 1 hour I was back to normal. Cheers :)

Glad you're ok.

Agree with Johnny, looks like you pulled in the clutch mid-corner, while on the throttle, which caused the rear wheel to spin in the wet conditions with reduced grip, causing the low side.

Good point about what they teach at CSS, and Keith Code's book. You should should try and get all your shifting done before corner entry, which it looks like you did, but then you kept covering the clutch. You should not cover the clutch mid-corner to avoid this type of  error.

Like others have said, it's great that you got it on camera, and that you can figure out what happened. Everyone crashes, learning from them is key, as it will make you a better rider. Nothing worse than crashing and not knowing why.

Glad you're back on the horse.  [thumbsup]