So for a long while now with my '07 Monster 695, I have had strange demons in my engine that no shop could seem to exorcise... There was an intermittent backfire through the intake while accelerating and occasional other problems like a low or hunting idle. I took it to a shop multiple times over many, many months and hundreds and hundreds of dollars, but it was all to no avail. I had the 15k mile service done early at 12k miles, had the valves done and re-done, TB's synced and re-synced, but alas, the demon remained. A shop even told me I had worn valve guides and I then had them replaced (free parts from Ducati) but lo and behold, the problems persisted!
I searched, I read, I posted (you can find my previous threads). I tried everything. No one could figure it out. So guess what, I decided to ignore it and ride on until there was a serious and definite problem. Well... that day has arrived.
I was riding down the highway steady at around 65 mph (with a passenger, no less!) when I heard a metal clang/bang and then loud buzzing/clattering. My instrument lights lit up like a Christmas tree and the bike died. I was focused on maintaining vehicle control and safely guiding the bike from the left hand lane around a left hand turn across three lanes and into the shoulder, but my passenger reported smoke from the exhaust as well.
Sick of shops and inspired by brave souls on this and other forums, I ordered my shop manuals and decided I was going to take matters into my own hands. (Actually this was a few months ago, but I finally now have the balls and the money saved up to take on this project.)
I started tinkering and removing things yesterday and quickly remembered the severe case of the mod bug I had right before the bike died. So while I'm at it, I will probably take this opportunity with practically everything on the bike apart to do a few mods I had in mind to begin with. (I debated starting this thread in the Tech section, but hopefully this will involve lots of modding, too...)
Anyway, here's Day 1:
(http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p594/C11Gidasi/Day1_zpsc36a1555.jpg)
And here's a list of everything I hope to accomplish:
In the Definitely Category:
- Either replace the engine altogether or simply rebuild it and get it to run again.
In the Probably Category:
- Add oil cooler
- Pod filters
- Crank case breather
- Tail chop
- Replace my crappy bar-end mirrors
- Clutch/Brake levers
- Obtain seat cowl (PO never included one when I bought the bike)
In the Maybe Category:
- Rear sets
- Rebuild shock...?
After getting the exhaust pipes off of the headers, I was disconcerted to discover pieces of metal falling out of the exhaust pipes. Completely off, I emptied them out into my hand:
(http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p594/C11Gidasi/MetalFragmentsFromExhaustPipe_zps7421c68e.jpg)
Then, looking up into the horizontal cylinder exhaust manifold from underneath, I was horrified by the carnage that lay within. The exhaust valve had broken completely off and was floating around inside the horizontal cylinder. If you look very closely you can see it in this picture:
(http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p594/C11Gidasi/BrokenExhaustValve_zps28fa9a7c.png)
Again, here are all the pieces I have discovered just in the exhaust pipes so far. The largest piece looks like aluminum and is about 3/4 inches in diameter.
(http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p594/C11Gidasi/MetalFragmentsFromExhaust_zps36d4fe7f.jpg)
Half (the dark pieces) are magnetic and half are not, which is interesting because the shop manual states that the intake valve guides are cast iron, I believe, while the exhaust valve guides are brass. Taking a peek into the intake manifold of the same cylinder, I could see that somehow half of the valve guide had broken off there, too.
There was also fine metal powder in the oil. Not sure how normal, if at all, this is.
(http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p594/C11Gidasi/MetalPowderinOil_zpsadaae267.jpg)
A shame it was practically new oil! [laugh]
Anyway, I'm hoping to have the engine out tomorrow. I'll keep you posted.
Allow me to ask my first question. Would this be a good opportunity to send my rear shock in for a rebuild while everything is apart? It's a 2007 and I have about 15k miles on the bike. I have no idea when this type of thing should be done or what it entails for that matter. If this is about the time I might want to get it rebuilt, where do people send them? Thanks for your input.
I knew practically nothing about motorcycles or engines when I bought the bike but I have learned a lot from the fine folks on this forum in just 2 years of ownership. I am sure I'll be learning a ton more on this project as I go, but I also thought it would be a dire shame not to document my progress so that others who are in my shoes can learn as well... I haven't found any really fantastic rebuild threads, let's see where this one goes...
Dan
unless you know how to replace valve guides, which aren't easy from what I've seen, you'll have to send the head out for repair.
I have a friend that has tons of horror stories about the stock Ducati exhaust valve guides. they're too soft.
he hand crafts special guides from a special material, won't divulge to me the material, and rebuilds heads.
http://www.italo-teilemarkt.de/ (http://www.italo-teilemarkt.de/)
http://www.italo-teilemarkt.de/main_fuehrungen.html (http://www.italo-teilemarkt.de/main_fuehrungen.html) if you read German is about the guides
This thread is about an engine failure.
It should really be in tech.
You can start a new one about your mods in the appropriate section.
Good luck, you've got a bit of work ahead of you.
You'll probably need a new piston.
Possibly need a new head.
Intake valve needs a good looking over for damage from being bashed
Jug might need to honed and plated or replaced.
Basically to top end of that cylinder is likely buggered up, but good.
And FWIW, your shock is way over due for a rebuild if it's not been done before - forks too. But leave that for after the engine and any mods after that..
Has there been any funny business with the belts condition/tension before your engine grenaded? I wonder if she jumped timing and beat herself to death.
Also, good on you for looking to tackle this yourself. You'll be surprised how much can be done in your own garage. [beer]
Quote from: Dellikose on January 21, 2013, 07:04:49 AM
Has there been any funny business with the belts condition/tension before your engine grenaded? I wonder if she jumped timing and beat herself to death.
Also, good on you for looking to tackle this yourself. You'll be surprised how much can be done in your own garage. [beer]
Why thank you! I'm sure I will be leaning on you all here at the forum a lot for this project. Cheers! [bow_down]
As for the belts, the only thing other than the normal service, was about a month or two before the faliure, I adjusted the tension using the 5mm hex key method... The belts look good as far as I can tell but I need to learn how to do timing to be able to tell for sure.
The metalflake oil might warrant digging deeper than just the top end.
A more cost efficient option would be a replacement engine.
Quote from: ducpainter on January 21, 2013, 07:39:07 AM
The metalflake oil might warrant digging deeper than just the top end.
A more cost efficient option would be a replacement engine.
Thanks DP,
I've been doing some searching on ebay (though I would much prefer an engine from a forum where I would imagine I can trust fellow Ducati people a bit more), and I have come across a few options:
This one is by far the cheapest and looks beat up on the outside, but I talked to the guy on the phone and he said it ran well before he took it out of the bike.
- Ebay 695 Option 1 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/07-Ducati-Monster-695-Engine-Motor-27-/170890115703?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item27c9d83a77&vxp=mtr)
The others all seem to be much more expensive and are typically from wrecks and have road rash.
Example:
- Ebay 695 Option 2 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ducati-Monster-695-M695-Motor-Engine-GUARANTEED-/140777819835?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item20c7030ebb&vxp=mtr)
This one seems like potentially a good option (does not include side covers) but I do not know what "one of the rings is bent" means...
- Ebay 695 Option 3 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/DUCATI-2008-08-695-MONSTER-MOTOR-ENGINE-LOW-MILES-1-132-MILES-145-150-PSI-/380532456655?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5899807ccf&vxp=mtr)
I figured an option would be to drop a new engine altogether into my bike so that I at least have something to ride while I am able to work on my current engine at my leisure (mostly for fun / to learn). I do only have one bike (money is a factor - I am but a wee Lieutenant at the moment.) However, the hesitation I have with this is that I do not really know what I am getting with a used ebay engine. Like I said, I had problems and aggravation with this engine for a long time before everything exploded and I do not want to buy one that has only the same (or worse) problems.
Any advice/suggestions greatly appreciated.
I wouldn't be afraid of that first link. It looks good.
The 695 is the same engine, basically, as an 800. I believe the cranks are the main difference. I also think the 695 has bigger valves...I might have misunderstood that part.
I'd also consider picking up an 800 bottom end/engine and redo your heads...voila...hopped up 800.
You would probably have to have your ecu reflashed for an 800 map.
Another option would be to get a 1K engine and scrap the 695. There are a half dozen of them on ebay ranging from $1K to $2.5K.
I just think that by the time you're done with a possible complete o/haul, or at least a disassembly and clean you'll have more than you anticipate into repairs.
Redoing the heads could cost you that depending on how much you can do yourself and pricing in your area for machine shop work.
It all really depends on how much you can/want to spend.
id replace the motor way sooner than replacing any parts.
also check out CL depending where you live for a spare motor.
I would be cautious about a 1K motor just because of the valve guide issue. Worn guides were quite common on a DS1000
if you really want to hop it up, look for the new EVO1100 motor.
I swapped my motor out for one and the total cost was about $1300 not including motor (reflash, random parts and dyno tune), however, i already had the TB, Harness etc.
That's another thing, I wouldn't mind going up in size, but how do I know exactly what engines will fit in my 695 frame? It seems that this type of information is painfully difficult to piece together across the far reaches of the internet. What do dealers have so that they are able to tell me quickly what will fit and what wont? Whatever that is, I want that. [laugh]
Also here's my first bit of trouble with which I could use some help. I'm trying to get the front sprocket off, which I understand is normally a fairly simple task with the bike in gear. However, my bike is in neutral and 1) I have already removed the gear change lever and rear set, and 2) I do not want to put it in gear and use the engine's compression (if one cylinder has enough anyway) to try and do the job in its current state of affairs inside my cylinder(s).
Is there any way to remove the front sprocket with the bike in neutral? Thanks!
Use a rattle gun. but you are better off using the transmission...it transmits considerable power, its not going to cry about a breaker bar on it.
Someone can calirfy this better than i can, but there is a certain year where tehy changed the size of the motor mounts, if you stay above that year ( i think its 2002) then any 2v motor will physically fit in your frame. the only isse is the swingarm, any DSS will fit your DSS. The only tricky one is the DS1000, DS1100 and EVO1100 motors.
Even if you get a motor with smaller bolt holes a drill will fix that in short order.
I think HeMan is correct though. All the later motors use the 12mm bolt.
another issue on your rebuild would be to make sure you use the older style crank bearings that fit in a metal sleeve rather than the new bearings that are bigger and don't use the sleeve
the new bearings have less bearings and are more prone to failure
this is what bit me in the ass on my wifes 696
the shop that is doing my rebuild uses the older bearings when they do crank bearings
Quote from: ducpainter on January 21, 2013, 09:41:37 AM
~~~SNIP~~~
The 695 is the same engine, basically, as an 800. I believe the cranks are the main difference. I also think the 695 has bigger valves...I might have misunderstood that part.
~~~SNIP~~~
Difference between 800 and 695, is 800 has longer stroke crank and shorter deck height pistons.
Front sprocket is only held on by the plate, which is held by 2 5mm bolts.
You can hold the sprocket with a pair of pliers.
Or just put it in gear, they're not very tight.
I ended up using the gearshift lever to put it in gear with my hand. You're right they were easy to get off. I hope it can stay that way (in 1st) for the rebuild since I wasn't able to easily get it back into neutral so I then just removed the sprocket and bled and removed the clutch slave cylinder.
Anyway here's a progress update...
Day 2:
(http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p594/C11Gidasi/Day2_zpsd255685a.jpg)
For simplicity's sake, I think a 1 for 1 swap of another 695 motor is the best choice. I wouldn't mind more power, but here are a few factors:
1. The 2007 695 engine makes just about as much power as an '01 900. It's been plenty for me.
2. Like has been mentioned, I don't want to deal with the DS1000 valve guide issues.
3. Swapping a 695 for a 695 is just so easy. There are too many factors to consider, on which I have no expertise, if I change the motor out for a bigger one: having to deal with the ECU / wires / new TB / will my existing fuel pump even work??
4. It's cheap. Buy one, drop it in. Done. If I really want to get fancy, I might as well buy a new bike.
Thoughts??
Also, here's another Ebay option I came across... Looks like a potentially decent one:
- Ebay 695 Option 4 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/390522536547?item=390522536547&viewitem=&vxp=mtr)
Quote from: Lieutenant Dan on January 21, 2013, 09:25:03 AM
This one seems like potentially a good option (does not include side covers) but I do not know what "one of the rings is bent" means...
- Ebay 695 Option 3 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/DUCATI-2008-08-695-MONSTER-MOTOR-ENGINE-LOW-MILES-1-132-MILES-145-150-PSI-/380532456655?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5899807ccf&vxp=mtr)
For an update on this engine, I contacted the seller and he says that "one of the rings is bent" means: Quote: It is actually the locking tab for the nut that is shown in the fifth picture. This will not effect the motor in any negative way.
I believe he took that line off of the item description afterwards.
Its a locking tab, if one side isnt bent, it isnt a tab and it aint locking! its normal.
I am going to call this guy (Engine 4). Any tips on what to ask him. I have no experience with such an endeavor...
I'm thinking
1. Mileage
2. Why it was removed
Open to more suggestions to help me make sure I don't get an engine with problems...
Thanks,
Dan
Got the engine out today... ;D
(http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p594/C11Gidasi/IMG_9724_zpse5f8cfee.jpg)
I feel accomplished...
Of course, I couldn't help but start investigating. Everything under the horizontal intake valve cover looked normal, but...
(http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p594/C11Gidasi/IMG_9727_zpsc85bbab0.jpg)
Is it normal for oil to pour out of your exhaust valve cover when you loosen the bolts?
Yes. Oil from the valve train tends to sit there. I always keep a drop bucket handy when removing the valve cover from the horiz. exhaust.
+1 - the horizontal exhaust cover and galley have a low spot, so some oil will collect there. So expect that oil every time you open the cover, given that the engines been run since the last time. Good news is you look to have gotten all of it out ;D
Just some photo updates from this weekend's venture into the horizontal cylinders valve covers...
(http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p594/C11Gidasi/IMG_9730_zpse71cd04e.jpg)
The exhaust valve stem (along with the mutilated valve guide) just fell right out.
(http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p594/C11Gidasi/IMG_9732_zpse39c736e.jpg)
so interesting
So in trying to check the timing, I needed a way to turn the engine over by hand and with no rear wheel attached nor the fancy Ducati crankshaft turning tool, I opened the clutch cover in order to grab the clutch and turn it by hand.
So I labeled and numbered then removed the bolts on the clutch cover:
(http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p594/C11Gidasi/IMG_9733_zpsf44ebc29.jpg)
And with a little persuasion of a rubber mallet, the cover came off very easily:
(http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p594/C11Gidasi/IMG_9735_zpsaa548868.jpg)
Now, here's the thing. Rotating the engine by hand via the clutch was easy in one direction and more difficult in the next (gears turning or something). However, what surprised me is that the crankshaft can rotate about 150 degrees and comes to a distinct stop. I'm seeing the intake valves open and close ALMOST fully but then, clunk! I am thinking I must be doing something wrong, because if the piston was just impacting the busted valve in the horiz cyl, then I would imagine it wouldn't feel like such a distinct stop I am hitting against.
However, the timing looks like it's good as far as I can tell. Even though it won't go to TDC, all the timing marks on the pulleys line up to the same amount away from their respective matching marks on the engine. That's all I need to know, right?? Does this mean the timing is good?
Furthermore, anyone have any experience with why the engine hits a stop after about 150 degrees of crankshaft rotation? Maybe the piston is hitting the busted exhaust valve head or perhaps is there something I just missed about turning the engine over?
Yes, piston hitting head of exhaust valve.
I know when I turn the engine via the rear wheel there is resistance, but only in certain spots. It feels like it may come when either the horizontal or vertical cycle comes to TDC.
I have to give the rear wheel a couple of quick, sharp pushes, then the engine continues to turn and I can hear the air being pushed out of the cylinder.
Pulled the heads today. Some interesting pictures of the damage the horizontal exhaust valve head did:
(http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p594/C11Gidasi/IMG_9740_zpsc3f7652e.jpg)
(http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p594/C11Gidasi/IMG_9741_zps28fdb31d.jpg)
(http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p594/C11Gidasi/IMG_9742_zpsf82a57a6.jpg)
The exhaust valve back together again (almost):
(http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p594/C11Gidasi/IMG_9747_zpsa7e7ae1f.jpg)
Yep, that head is rooted.
cheapest option at this stage would be 2nd hand engine. in the meantime, disassembly and removal of horizontal barrel and piston will allow you to look into the case to see how much metal made it's way down there.
rod may also be bent, and not visible to the untrained eye.
Keep the pics coming :)
Those pictures are porn.
plain and simple.
please post more.
Wow - total internal carnage.
Given the bike history outlined in the first post, any theories about the failure mode?
BK
I haven't followed this thread, and had my first look right now. Sympathy, never fun, but things beeing what they are, thanks for sharing. Can't find a "smiley" to suit the occasion ....
what ever happened?
Mother of Pearl! You are sure the timing was right? Only thing I could think to cause this unless the guide failed so much to allow it to fall into the head along with the valve. Sheet loads of fun.
[popcorn]
Maybe a piece of the guide broke off and jammed between the valve and the seat holding the valve open. Piston comes flying up and BAM.
Good idea sticking with the same motor, gives you some spare parts from your original engine in the unlikely event you need clutch, gearbox, 2nd cyl head etc.
Well it's been quite a while, but I finally got the time to work on the bike. Here's an update:
(http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p594/C11Gidasi/DucNewEngineFittingSwingArm_zpse7c84b47.jpg)
Got the new engine fitted to the frame. Now I'm attaching the swingarm where I have hit my first snag. (Need more shim washers. No idea where to get them).
dealers should have stock of swing arm shims
This thread is interesting. All the best. My engine is dying and wish I had the knowledge to do what you are doing. My mechanic no longer wrenches. Trying to have the guts to learn. This thread is encouraging.
Quote from: ab on July 08, 2014, 07:20:29 PM
My engine is dying and wish I had the knowledge to do what you are doing. My mechanic no longer wrenches. Trying to have the guts to learn. This thread is encouraging.
The maintenance manual for your bike plus this forum are perfect! Trust me, I knew nothing about wrenching on bikes before this project - and I'm still learning a ton as I go! I highly encourage you try it! There's nothing you can't overcome with the help of this forum behind you!
Here's an update of my (slow) progress! I just got the throttle bodies, sprocket, chain, rear wheel, brake, crank case breather, voltage regulator, and various engine electrical controls reattached. Next I'm refreshing the oil, filter, and spark plugs, then going to put on the exhaust, battery, and air box. Should be almost ready to run after that!!!
(http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p594/C11Gidasi/IMG_0316_zps2f42b12c.jpg)
I need some help: the manual is very ambiguous about the torque specified for the oil mesh filter and the plug that goes over it. As a result I just made them pretty 'good n' tight.' Any problems anyone foresees with this approach? Thanks!!
42 Nm. 'good n' tight.' works if you have the feel.
Quote from: howie on October 26, 2014, 11:48:08 AM
42 Nm. 'good n' tight.' works if you have the feel.
For both the mesh filter and the plug over it? I wasn't sure because the mesh filter was barely hand tight when I removed it.
Yep, Ducati made it easy here - 42Nm for the oil drain plug, the cap to the mesh filter and mesh filter itself.
BK
Thanks. You guys are awesome!
In other news, I just tried to bleed the rear brake and I simply cannot get tiny bubbles to stop coming out of the system. I ran about 5-10 reservoirs completely through the circuit and little tiny bubbles won't stop coming out. I'm worried I might have a bad seal in there somewhere. (The system did sit pretty much empty - full of air - for about a year, now.) In reading the forum, I will give it a rest and try again after a day or two.
Can anyone with experience either confirm or but my fears to rest? Thanks!
Is your caliper is mounted on the bottom of the rotor? If so, remove the caliper, turn up side down so bleeder is on top, place a piece of wood or metal about the thickness of your rotor between the pads and bleed.
Bleeder screw points up on the 695 with the caliper mounted.
You might be getting some air in by the threads of the bleeder after each pump. Sometimes it helps to put a little grease on the bleeder threads to help it seal, crack it only a bit, push down on the bleeder a bit and close the bleeder just before the flow stops.
If things are all frothed up in the system, letting it sit overnight can help the little bubbles become bigger bubbles.
BK
The day has arrived! Had to buy a new battery, but I finally got her started again!!
It cranked a few times extra but started about as quick as I would imagine. I let it idle for a while and then took it around the block. It ran like garbage!! Maybe not complete garbage, but I have surging issues. Since I had surging with the last engine as well, I know it's due to some component that remained unchanged. Yes, I used fresh gas. My best guess is dirty fuel injectors. I plan on taking a few steps to try to fix the surging.
1. I will use a fuel injector cleaner and give her the ol' Italian tune up (throttle) for a tank of gas or three.
2. If still unfixed, I will replace the fuel filter.
3. If still unfixed, I will send the injectors to a shop (AMS?) in Dallas to get cleaned.
I have a few questions regarding the above:
1. What fuel injector cleaner does anyone recommend and how to use it (if other than what's on the label)? I have seen people on here talking about Techron??
2. Anyone know what kind of fuel filter to get or where the best place is to get one? The manual is very ambiguous about this.
Thanks!!
How many miles on this bike?
Filter ever been changed?
I'd do that before I ran any weasel piss through the bike.
I have used Techron injector cleaner with good results on a few bikes. It can't hurt, so why not try it?
Quote from: ducpainter on November 23, 2014, 05:02:43 PM
How many miles on this bike?
17,000
Quote from: ducpainter on November 23, 2014, 05:02:43 PM
Filter ever been changed?
Not that I know of. Thanks! Now I just need to know its specs and where to get it...?
Found this on another post: http://www.monsterparts.com/pc/FUELFILTER/Maintenance/FUELFILTER.html (http://www.monsterparts.com/pc/FUELFILTER/Maintenance/FUELFILTER.html)
looks like its the $30 one for me. Anyone have experience with this?
parts list says 42540101A, which is the grey fiamm filter for which there is no a/m direct source afaik. you could use the later kl97, which is also plastic. i'm wary of the kl145 metal filter in a plastic tank, as most of the plastic filters are earthed. although is that only in metal tanks? not sure now. no earth wire shown in the m695 parts listing, filter is just screwed to the main frame of the pump assy.
Do change the filter first.
OK, so I just managed to complete the fuel filter change. To my knowledge, the filter element inside the old filter looks like a happy fuel filter (clean). Slapped on the new one and fired it up: same issues. [thumbsdown] Backfire (especially when cold) and surging. I'm going to resort to fuel injector cleaner next (if I can even get it running well enough to ride it) - but I doubt this will fix anything either. It's looking to me like the culprit is not the fuel system.
I'm looking for ideas as to what could be causing this (backfire and surging just like pre-engine swap existing AFTER a new engine is installed). Any other ideas? I'm thinking of starting a new thread to aid in diagnosis.
Check fuel pressure and check that the TPS is set properly and giving appropriate readings.
Good ideas. Is there a way to do this without computer equipment in a shop?
You can check fuel pressure with a standard pressure gauge, just have to 'tee' into the existing circuit, should be ~45 psi.
TPS readings require some form of diagnostic software, like VDSTS on a laptop, or the dealer electronic diagnostic equipment.
As an update, this bike runs well now. Added a Fat Duc 02 Manipulator and a shop in Dallas put it on a Dyno and was very impressed. I have since moved to Tucson, AZ and am being stationed overseas. The bike is now for sale - see the classifieds section of this forum. -Dan