Bike: 2002 S4
Mileage: 13,435
Recent Service: 12K (Everything was changed as the bike had been sitting for a bit)
Resting Location: Stored Inside. Temps not lower than 60 degrees
Background: (Sunday) Changed the tank and did everything right but the gas lines. Crossed the lines so when I tried to start the bike, gauge swept, indicator lights came on and pump primed but the bike failed to start. Tried starting her a couple of times and then apparently killed my Shorai battery. Figured out the issue, fixed the line and then put plugged in the battery tender to give battery some juice. Pulled her off after several hours and she started right up. At this point I didn't put her back on the tender.
(Today) Pulled the bike outside and fired her up. Was about 40 degrees outside. She took a couple of attempts to and had to use the fast idle to get her going. Bike idles at around 1200RMP. Let her get warm and started to work. She died a little more than 15 minutes later but started right back up. However, bike idled low during the entire ride to work (40 minutes). Parked in garage around 50 degrees at 8. Came back at 10 and tried to start her, took a bike and noticed the dim headlight. Even while bike was on, light stayed dim. Came back around 1:00 to test start her, same issue but she started. Left work at 4 and it took a while for bike to get running and idled low. Added bonus to dim light the highbeam indicator was on despite the bike being in low beam. Made it home but had to rev engine every now and then as when at traffic lights she idled around 1K. Can't understand why the highbeam light stayed on the whole ride despite not being in highbeam mode, why the battery didn't charge during my ride and why she feel like she wants to die all the time....
Checked other threads and most had some of the same issues but not the highbeam issue while riding.
So is the battery gone, the starter gone, the R/R gone or something else?
Dont want to throw money at this problem.....
Check battery voltage and voltage while running.
Sounds like it isn't charging.
Quote from: ducpainter on January 29, 2013, 05:09:52 PM
Check battery voltage and voltage while running.
Sounds like it isn't charging.
Gotcha.....What should it be reading if correct/not correct and how long should I let the bike run for to determine? If it's not charging what's the fix or are there several options?
Also hooked bike up to tender. Green light on tender. While it's hooked up to the bike turned the ignition switch; gauges sweep, HB indicator still lit and headlight is still dim....
Quote from: MonstaS2R on January 29, 2013, 05:15:07 PM
Gotcha.....What should it be reading if correct/not correct and how long should I let the bike run for to determine? If it's not charging what's the fix or are there several options?
Also hooked bike up to tender. Green light on tender. While it's hooked up to the bike turned the ignition switch; gauges sweep, HB indicator still lit and headlight is still dim....
While running at about 2500 rpm you should see 13.5-14.5 at the battery.
The dim HL makes it seem like a battery issue, but it could also be a ground.
I believe the high beam light is trying to tell us something...not sure what.
At 40 degF, you'll need the fast idle to get it started, for sure.
Idle when fully warmed up, and fast idle lever at full 'off' should be ~1200 RPM.
They *can* idle reliably a bit lower than that, but it's not a good plan.
As DP said, check voltages.
even if the light is green on the tender, it needs to be on there for more than a 2 days if you actually drained ur batt fully (the amp rating is really low on charge mode and its even lower on trickle/tender mode AFAIK). The amperage drops dramatically on tender mode and the voltage is only slightly higher than the batterys native voltage.
that is unless u have a tender specifically for LiFePo4. then ignore that, im assuming u have the deltran batt tender.
Quote from: He Man on January 29, 2013, 08:20:23 PM
even if the light is green on the tender, it needs to be on there for more than a 2 days if you actually drained ur batt fully (the amp rating is really low on charge mode and its even lower on trickle/tender mode AFAIK). The amperage drops dramatically on tender mode and the voltage is only slightly higher than the batterys native voltage.
that is unless u have a tender specifically for LiFePo4. then ignore that, im assuming u have the deltran batt tender.
Don't have a charger specifically for the LiFePo4. Plugged the bike back in for the next day or so to sort through the charging issue will then tackle the HB light issue.
As others said, your symptoms sound like the charging system is not workingHere is a link to test your charging system. Pay special attention to the connector where the three stator wires (yellow) connect to the regulator. http://www.electrosport.com/media/pdf/fault-finding-diagram.pdf (http://www.electrosport.com/media/pdf/fault-finding-diagram.pdf) Engine ground too!
A Battery Tender (Deltran) will not fully charge your Shorai battery. Around 14.3 volts is is fully charged. 13.3 is 90%, 13.1 70% and 12.8 not much more than 20%. Put your voltmeter in series between the charger and your battery. Whatever the voltage is when the green light comes on is as good as it will get.
Quote from: howie on January 30, 2013, 04:59:26 AM
As others said, your symptoms sound like the charging system is not workingHere is a link to test your charging system. Pay special attention to the connector where the three stator wires (yellow) connect to the regulator. http://www.electrosport.com/media/pdf/fault-finding-diagram.pdf (http://www.electrosport.com/media/pdf/fault-finding-diagram.pdf) Engine ground too!
A Battery Tender (Deltran) will not fully charge your Shorai battery. Around 14.3 volts is is fully charged. 13.3 is 90%, 13.1 70% and 12.8 not much more than 20%. Put your voltmeter in series between the charger and your battery. Whatever the voltage is when the green light comes on is as good as it will get.
Thanks Howie. And the charg reading is...........
Quote from: ducpainter on January 29, 2013, 05:19:35 PM
While running at about 2500 rpm you should see 13.5-14.5 at the battery.
The dim HL makes it seem like a battery issue, but it could also be a ground.
I believe the high beam light is trying to tell us something...not sure what.
Let's see what happens with the charging system first. Then we will worry about the headlight. Hopefully the high beam light problem will go away.
Quote from: howie on January 30, 2013, 10:29:05 AM
Let's see what happens with the charging system first. Then we will worry about the headlight. Hopefully the high beam light problem will go away.
I'm waiting with bated breath... ;D
Update:
Checked battery charge, battery is reading 13.34. When I turn the ignition key the bike reads 13.23. Now when I try to start the bike, the voltage drops all the way to between 8-9 volts. Never had to check this before. based on the previous posts the battery can charge. However, should voltage drop to around 8 or 9 when trying to start? if yes, where should I check next?
Kids asleep so I can't start the bike to test idling voltage until the morning.
That is excessive voltage drop I believe.
Check all battery connections including grounds
Quote from: ducpainter on January 31, 2013, 05:42:28 PM
That is excessive voltage drop I believe.
Check all battery connections including grounds
Thanks....When I do start her, what would you say is a typical voltage reading when trying to start?
I'm thinking...if my addled brain is working...no less than 10 volts.
howie will be by to straighten me out. ;)
8 or 9 volts is no where good. As DP said, test all connections and grounds. This video should help and ave me typing http://video.answers.com/how-to-voltage-drop-test-your-car-158075314
I would also suggest trying a known good battery. I can't tell you anything about testing a Shorai, but perhaps they can help http://www.shoraipower.com/contact.html
While you are at it, check the connector on your headlight. Dp is onto something about a bad ground. It is possible the headlight may be trying to ground through the high beam indicator.
lithium batts have huge output with minimal voltage drop. At 8 to 9 volts that battery is dead i think. Below 9 volts and the ecu begins shutting down.
So these are my next steps. Check connections and grounds, check the headlight connection and if tose all check out replace battery and then check voltage at rest (without bike started). Start and check with idle voltage reads. If low check for grounds, etc....
Quote from: He Man on January 31, 2013, 06:11:15 PM
lithium batts have huge output with minimal voltage drop. At 8 to 9 volts that battery is dead i think. Below 9 volts and the ecu begins shutting down.
The results do indicate a bad battery. Excessive voltage drop, bad ground, bad starter or mechanical engine problems can give that result too. On a conventional battery a load test would determine if the battery is good a lithium...well...dunno. New technology, new learning curve.
Don't be too hung up on idle voltage.
You want to know what it reads at 2500 rpm.
My Shorai doesnt seem to drop below 11.4V on start up. After a good long ride it sits on 14.3V. It doesnt fall below 13.5 after frequent short rides with headlight on.
I found that my car charger wasnt topping it up fully. Some forum members suspect that your bike's charging system is doing the same. I invested in a Shorai charger which was worth it because I have two bikes with them, as do customers. It would hurt to have to buy a special charger for a single expensive battery.
There's a port on the charger/diagnostic gizmo that downloads data to the right program which the distributor should have . If that Shorai is under warranty you can send it to the distributor who can test it, balance charge it, or replace it.
Good luck with that voltage reading at fast idle/low rpm. You want to see 14V going into those batteries at +3000. My old bikes 350W single phase system struggles to do that at low revs.
I believe i read the specs to be, you must maintain 3000+rpms for it to actually be charging.
A load test can be done on any battery i think. i was skeptical with the lithium battery if you could do it. I was going to ask autozone to do it on the Ballisitc battery (they are asking i return it and since its beign scrapped i might as well see if they can right?)
He Man, is your Ballistic being replaced under warranty?
nope. the money is being replaced. they are offering full refund. which si pretty damn sweet of them. ive alraedy gone back to an AGM
Took her out and fired her up. Voltage reading at a steady 2K RPM stayed at 14.7 or so but every now and then voltage bounced down to 10, 12 or 13. When i blipped the throttle to 2K or higher it dropped down to anywhere between 9 and 13V.
The bike is charging.
It seems the battery is not holding that charge.
Quote from: ducpainter on February 01, 2013, 04:09:40 AM
The bike is charging.
It seems the battery is not holding that charge.
Should normal behavior be that when the bike starts, the battery voltage should drop a bit and then bounce back at idle. And then when revved it battery voltage should increase and never decrease as the system should be charging while riding, etc...Just wanna make sure I've diagnosed correctly before pulling the trigger on a new battery.
Now for that constantly lit HB light.....
That pretty much sums it up.
Quote from: MonstaS2R on February 01, 2013, 04:04:36 AM
Took her out and fired her up. Voltage reading at a steady 2K RPM stayed at 14.7 or so but every now and then voltage bounced down to 10, 12 or 13. When i blipped the throttle to 2K or higher it dropped down to anywhere between 9 and 13V.
Not good. Charging should be steady at speed. First, make sure your volt meter connections are good. You may be getting erroneous readings. Then go to the Electrex trouble shooting link I posted. Check voltage from the stator windings. Within range and steady? Stator is good. Regulator (or more likely) loose connection. Do look for signs of excessive heat where the stator connects to the alternator. To eliminate the battery variable substitute a known good battery, preferably lead acid.
Quote from: He Man on January 31, 2013, 07:46:54 PM
<snip>
A load test can be done on any battery i think. i was skeptical with the lithium battery if you could do it. I was going to ask autozone to do it on the Ballisitc battery (they are asking i return it and since its beign scrapped i might as well see if they can right?)
Correct, but the value are a mystery. The standard of 9.6 volts at 3X the ampere rating won't work since the Shorai is stone dead at...well... http://www.shoraipower.com/s.nl/it.I/id.5/.f (http://www.shoraipower.com/s.nl/it.I/id.5/.f) scroll down to chart. Also note that letting a LiFePO4 battery run low greatly endangers it.
Listen to howie.
I need to stop reading at 5:30 am. [bang]
Quote from: ducpainter on February 01, 2013, 08:20:06 AM
Listen to howie.
I need to stop reading at 5:30 am. [bang]
Your advice is always welcome.
Quote from: howie on February 01, 2013, 07:27:24 AM
Not good. Charging should be steady at speed. First, make sure your volt meter connections are good. You may be getting erroneous readings. Then go to the Electrex trouble shooting link I posted. Check voltage from the stator windings. Within range and steady? Stator is good. Regulator (or more likely) loose connection. Do look for signs of excessive heat where the stator connects to the alternator. To eliminate the battery variable substitute a known good battery, preferably lead acid.
So double checked voltage again and then took her outside to confirm earlier email. Inside, voltage reading as 13.4v, then took her outside and cranked her over. First crank didn't start. Second crank fired up and kept a steady rev at 2,500RPM, volt reading increased to 14.7. Volt reading didn't consistently hold at 14.7, every now and then like this morning it fluxed between 10-13v's before going back to 14. Even in the 14v range it would go from 14.7 to 14.3 or 14.5 before going back to the 14.7/14.8 range. It slowly increased but you volt reading would drop every now and then before going up.
Based on Electrosport, revved bike to 5K RMP, and it jumped all over the place above and below 14.8v. So it seems the charging system is ok. But this is all relative to an acid-lead battery and not a Shorai.
Howie- still gonna check reading at strator tonight when back from office to see what the reading tells me.
How should I go about checking the headlight ground?
Quote from: MonstaS2R on February 01, 2013, 09:36:55 AM
Your advice is always welcome.
So double checked voltage again and then took her outside to confirm earlier email. Inside, voltage reading as 13.4v, then took her outside and cranked her over. First crank didn't start. Second crank fired up and kept a steady rev at 2,500RPM, volt reading increased to 14.7. Volt reading didn't consistently hold at 14.7, every now and then like this morning it fluxed between 10-13v's before going back to 14. Even in the 14v range it would go from 14.7 to 14.3 or 14.5 before going back to the 14.7/14.8 range. It slowly increased but you volt reading would drop every now and then before going up.
Based on Electrosport, revved bike to 5K RMP, and it jumped all over the place above and below 14.8v. So it seems the charging system is ok. But this is all relative to an acid-lead battery and not a Shorai.
Howie- still gonna check reading at strator tonight when back from office to see what the reading tells me.
I think howie is suggesting that the voltage readings should not jump around, but should remain constant at ~14.5. You might have a bad connection or a connection/wire that is getting ready to fail. I'd check the connector at the regulator and the one coming from the stator...yellow wires.
This assuming you have solid meter connections.
Quote from: MonstaS2R on February 01, 2013, 09:38:00 AM
How should I go about checking the headlight ground?
Remove the sealed beam and check continuity from the ground wire inside to the bike side of the H?L connector. Not sure what color it is...black or brown...maybe.
The ohm meter should read 0 resistance.
A little fluctuation is OK, particularly with temperature change is OK, going down to battery, or notably below 13.5 is not. Over 15 volts can damage the Shorai battery, as will letting it sit at less than 12.866V according to Shorai. Over 15 volts can also damage other components. Over 15 also can be an early waning of regulator melt down.
The ground wire for your headlight is black. Yellow/black should be high beam. Also run the ohmmeter between the high beam wire and the ground wire. If there is any reading other than infinity there is a short in the harness. I suspect you will probably find the socket itself is not in good shape.
Quote from: howie on February 01, 2013, 01:00:17 PM
A little fluctuation is OK, particularly with temperature change is OK, going down to battery, or notably below 13.5 is not. Over 15 volts can damage the Shorai battery, as will letting it sit at less than 12.866V according to Shorai. Over 15 volts can also damage other components.
Thanks Howie.
Quote from: howie on February 01, 2013, 01:00:17 PM
The ground wire for your headlight is black. Yellow/black should be high beam. Also run the ohmmeter between the high beam wire and the ground wire. If there is any reading other than infinity there is a short in the harness. I suspect you will probably find the socket itself is not in good shape.
If there's a short in the harness, what's the remedy? Please don't say a new wiring harness :'(
Quote from: MonstaS2R on February 02, 2013, 11:21:43 AM
If there's a short in the harness, what's the remedy? Please don't say a new wiring harness :'(
One step at a time. Let's see what the problem is first. Harnesses can always be repaired. The high beam wire overheated and fractured, causing an open. I cut into the harness and replaced the wire from inside the main harness to the connector for the switch and back to the indicator light. Not pretty enough for your bike with the great paint and all, but I wanted to be back on the road. Been fine for around three years now, maybe longer.
So update:
Fixed HB light [beer] and dropped new battery in bike. Strator good and R/R good. New issue though is, bike took a few more cranks than should be necessary to start. Once i finally had her running and turned her off, white smoke was coming from the cans.....Do i need to pull/replace spark plugs?? Not sure why the bike could be so hard to start at this point.
Quote from: MonstaS2R on February 04, 2013, 04:30:29 PM
So update:
Fixed HB light [beer] and dropped new battery in bike. Strator good and R/R good. New issue though is, bike took a few more cranks than should be necessary to start. Once i finally had her running and turned her off, white smoke was coming from the cans.....Do i need to pull/replace spark plugs?? Not sure why the bike could be so hard to start at this point.
You need to start riding it in between starts. ;)
Quote from: ducpainter on February 04, 2013, 04:33:13 PM
You need to start riding it in between starts. ;)
Polite way of saying it's all in my head at this point and the bike is fine [beer]
Quote from: MonstaS2R on February 04, 2013, 04:35:03 PM
Polite way of saying it's all in my head at this point and the bike is fine [beer]
...or not.
Sitting and basically idling is not these bikes forte` is all, and not easy on plugs.
Put some miles on it and decide if you need to look further.
It seems the bike is charging and won't strand you because of a lack of juice.
Take a chance...Columbus did. ;D
Quote from: MonstaS2R on February 04, 2013, 04:30:29 PM
~~~SNIP~~~
Not sure why the bike could be so hard to start at this point.
What was the ambient temperature when you were starting it?
You were using the fast idle, yes?
Quote from: Speeddog on February 04, 2013, 05:41:59 PM
What was the ambient temperature when you were starting it?
You were using the fast idle, yes?
Started it indoors before moving her outside temp was 55 inside when i turned her on and then mover her outside. Used the fast idle about halfway.
So with new battery here are symptoms:
- Using fast idle bike takes a bit to start (air tempt 55 degrees)
- Rear taillight flickers when bike is cranking to start
- Once bike starts, hold a constant charge level and increases when revs > 2,500 RPM
- Highbeam indicator now functioning properly
Do I need to run through the electrosport diagnosis again?
If the charging rate is reasonably constant, no. I would follow Nate's advice, plus, if your pockets are deep enough, maybe new plugs and see what happens first. Tail light flickering during crank is normal. And, yep, use the fast idle.
Thanks for the insights and help sussing out the issue. Guess I need to reset my brain and stop expecting the S4 to start and idle like the S2R. ;D
FINAL UPDATE:
Rode the bike for the last couple of days despite rain and cold weather and battery drain kept coming back despite charging system working properly. So took her in to get a second opinion. R/R was putting out 18v, thus melting some of the headlight wires, cause it to improperly function. R/R was replaced with a MOSFOT R/R, headlight wiring was replaced with new one and bike seems to be running like a champ now.....
Very thankful for everyones help here. Learned a ton about the charging system R/R and strator on bike. Big [thumbsup] to DMF members.