I have a 2010 M696 ABS. I chose this bike for two primary reasons - 1) I'm short and the bike can accommodate that 2) I love to ride the twisties and the bike is light and easy to turn. Having said that - lighter is better. I would like to develop a long tern strategy for parts replacements and upgrades which will yield a significantly lighter and better handling bike and I'm hoping some of you have thoughts along this line...oh and the cost effective part. I can't just buy every ti and carbon piece made as my pocket wouldn't love me...so I probably won't be getting the ti frame either.
I already plan to 1) replace the battery with one of the new Li Ion ones. One can shave several pounds - like about 6 or so - and the batteries are only about $200. I'm not sure at this point if one brand is significantly better than another but it sure seems like an easy choice for weight loss even if it is sprung weight. 2) Tail tidy - probably Evo kit - and integrated tail light (motodynamics??) I don't know the weight loss but this is mostly for looks anyway. 3) I may very well reduce the weight on the rear rotor. I see that some companies drill them for weight savings and it's only marginally useful since it's a rear brake anyway...and unsprung weight! 4) Put on lighter weight than the original tires when they are due to change. I'm generally figuring a Pirelli but haven't gotten into particulars yet. I figure this is also fairly high up on the cost for weight savings effectiveness since the weight is both rotational and unsprung.
What item(s) would you replace or alter for cost effective weight savings?
Quote from: jcmjrt on January 31, 2013, 02:57:44 PM
<snip>
What item(s) would you replace or alter for cost effective weight savings?
I went on a diet.
I lost almost 30 lbs and it didn't cost a dime. ;D
Congratulations. Actually, I'm losing a few winter pounds myself and hoping to make it about 10. I sure wish that I could drag out my credit card and delete pounds off of me! ;)
To be completely honest, my thoughts are that suspension upgrades will make your bike better handling, and you a faster rider quicker than any weight loss program...
be it for you or the bike.
I guess I'm assuming that is your goal.
Quote from: ducpainter on January 31, 2013, 03:13:45 PM
To be completely honest, my thoughts are that suspension upgrades will make your bike better handling, and you a faster rider quicker than any weight loss program...
I think that suspension upgrades sound very reasonable, however, weight loss can be pretty significant for improving handling...I'd guess especially for we who are a little smaller.
What specific upgrades would you recommend? Which would you do first - front or rear?
Most significant benefit from weight loss is wheels. Two problems though, $$ and not much is available in your factory 4 1/2 wheel "off the rack". Lighter rear rotor? Not much benefit.
Quote from: jcmjrt on January 31, 2013, 03:28:51 PM
I think that suspension upgrades sound very reasonable, however, weight loss can be pretty significant for improving handling...I'd guess especially for we who are a little smaller.
What specific upgrades would you recommend? Which would you do first - front or rear?
Rear upgrades are easier, because they are typically bolt on...nothing is cheap
Depending on the fork manufacturer, front upgrades can get pricey.
Keep in mind, all upgrades cost.
My thinking is that for the minimal weight loss you can achieve with battery swaps and rear rotors the money would be much better spent on a better shock and fork valving.
What is your budget?
You have two goals, lighter and better handling.
They don't necessarily follow the same path.
I encourage you to get the suspension sorted out for *you*, as at 5'2", you're very likely below the design weight for the bike.
I know it's a bit rude to ask, but this *is* the tech section.... how much do you weigh?
Biggest gains in handling are getting the bike sprung to the rider's weight, followed by better damping components.
Beyond that, as far as reducing weight and improving handling at the same time, lighter wheels is the best route.
Exhaust is typically another area where you can shed many pounds. Don't know abou the M696, but it's shocking how much some of the OE exhausts weigh compared to Termi or similar. As the others have already pointed out, suspension and wheels/tires will give better return on investment than anything else (in the handling sense). You'll go broke trying to add lightness with Ti and carbon fiber bits!
BK
If your battery and exhaust pipes are high on the bike, you can lower the center of gravity with light weight replacements. This aids the confidence of us shorties.
I dropped 17 1/2 pounds off my bike with Termi carbon pipes and a Li battery.
I agree light wheels are most effective, but cost a kidney.
Wheels (Carrozzeria could make custom 4.5" IIRC)
Suspension (1100S forks and shock are best options)
Ti/AL replacement (brake rotors/caliper bolts and axles)
Brake Rotors (wave type rotors)
Rear Sprocket (several lightweight options)
exhaust
Battery
CF everything
Ti/AL replacement on everything else
This would be the order for lightweight/handling improvements IMO.
My opinion:
Tires and battery when it's time for replacement anyway - 'free'.
Start saving now and by the time your skills have developed to where weight matters, you'll be closer to having the funds for wheels. At about the same time, or a little sooner, good suspension components will be 'necessary' (springs and adjustment ASAP to get to that level)
I haven't tried it yet, but will soon - the hype says that Explosafe gas tank material stops the gas from sloshing around and stabilizes the bike a lot... they say it makes the bike feel a lot lighter...
Quote from: Raux on January 31, 2013, 10:20:25 PM
Wheels (Carrozzeria could make custom 4.5" IIRC)
Suspension (1100S forks and shock are best options)
Ti/AL replacement (brake rotors/caliper bolts and axles)
Brake Rotors (wave type rotors)
Rear Sprocket (several lightweight options)
exhaust
Battery
CF everything
Ti/AL replacement on everything else
This would be the order for lightweight/handling improvements IMO.
It's a good list. I'd rearrange it a bit.
Wheels (The biggest change you can make on a bike. Do some research. Forged aluminum or CF wheels make a hell of a difference in handling, but are they worth it? It's up to you.)
Suspension (Do this. Trust me. Went from factory new non-adjustable Sport Classic forks to freshly serviced 848 Superbike forks with appropriate springs. Even getting new springs/valves will make the bike feel much more planted in corners.)
Exhaust (The actual performance difference may not be that much, but the combination of weight loss and audio feedback makes it worth the trouble.)
Battery (Losing 5 lbs of mass by switching to a different chemical cell? Yeah. Worth it.)
Everything else he mentioned, in order.
Quote from: ducpainter on January 31, 2013, 03:51:14 PM
Rear upgrades are easier, because they are typically bolt on...nothing is cheap
Depending on the fork manufacturer, front upgrades can get pricey.
Keep in mind, all upgrades cost.
My thinking is that for the minimal weight loss you can achieve with battery swaps and rear rotors the money would be much better spent on a better shock and fork valving.
What is your budget?
I don't have a specific budget at the moment. I'm still riding and thinking about ergonomics and what needs to change how....and I really am trying to develop a strategy about upgrades so that I do them smartly. I'm not afraid to spend a dollar but I'd at least like to do it reasonably well informed and smartly. e.g. I wouldn't want to spend big bucks on ti bolts for the riser. I might lose the same amount of weight as going ti on rotor bolts, however, rotor bolts are unsprung weight and more significant....but maybe a ti axle or aluminum rear sprockets would lose more weight at a lower cost. The truth is that I figure ti and carbon bits are not going to dominate my bike; they are too expensive for what they bring to the game...ususally. ;0
Having said that...what would you do for a rear shock - an Ohlins, Penske, or...? And front fork....go with a new cartridge or..?
Quote from: Speeddog on January 31, 2013, 08:14:37 PM
You have two goals, lighter and better handling.
They don't necessarily follow the same path.
I encourage you to get the suspension sorted out for *you*, as at 5'2", you're very likely below the design weight for the bike.
/quote]
Lighter typically works well for me but I do understand that they aren't the same. What is the design weight rider for the bike? 160? or?
Quote from: BK_856er on January 31, 2013, 10:03:20 PM
Exhaust is typically another area where you can shed many pounds. Don't know abou the M696, but it's shocking how much some of the OE exhausts weigh compared to Termi or similar. As the others have already pointed out, suspension and wheels/tires will give better return on investment than anything else (in the handling sense). You'll go broke trying to add lightness with Ti and carbon fiber bits!
BK
I'll have to take a look at weight loss for the aftermarket exhausts. I had rather written them off as an idea as mostly I hear about them for performance upgrades but the monster isn't easily pumped up like some bikes. It's hard to think that Termis lose enough weight to be worth the money on weght savings but it's definitely worth checking closer. I do agree about adding ti and carbon bits which is one of the reasons for looking for other ideas...like this.
do a complete fork replacement not a cartridge.
Quote from: koko64 on January 31, 2013, 10:19:45 PM
If your battery and exhaust pipes are high on the bike, you can lower the center of gravity with light weight replacements. This aids the confidence of us shorties.
I dropped 17 1/2 pounds off my bike with Termi carbon pipes and a Li battery.
I agree light wheels are most effective, but cost a kidney.
Wow! 17 1/2 pounds is pretty significant.
Quote from: Raux on January 31, 2013, 10:20:25 PM
Wheels (Carrozzeria could make custom 4.5" IIRC)
Suspension (1100S forks and shock are best options)
Ti/AL replacement (brake rotors/caliper bolts and axles)
Brake Rotors (wave type rotors)
Rear Sprocket (several lightweight options)
exhaust
Battery
CF everything
Ti/AL replacement on everything else
This would be the order for lightweight/handling improvements IMO.
Those Carrozzeria wheels are beautiful and they only look to cost half of a kidney ;0
Wheels and suspension seems to be a theme. :)
Quote from: jcmjrt on February 01, 2013, 12:38:22 AM
I don't have a specific budget at the moment. I'm still riding and thinking about ergonomics and what needs to change how....and I really am trying to develop a strategy about upgrades so that I do them smartly. I'm not afraid to spend a dollar but I'd at least like to do it reasonably well informed and smartly. e.g. I wouldn't want to spend big bucks on ti bolts for the riser. I might lose the same amount of weight as going ti on rotor bolts, however, rotor bolts are unsprung weight and more significant....but maybe a ti axle or aluminum rear sprockets would lose more weight at a lower cost. The truth is that I figure ti and carbon bits are not going to dominate my bike; they are too expensive for what they bring to the game...ususally. ;0
Having said that...what would you do for a rear shock - an Ohlins, Penske, or...? And front fork....go with a new cartridge or..?
I went with an Ohlins. The price was right and the availability was good. I re-sprung it, but did not vary so far from the deign weight that the valving no longer worked. Penske also makes a great shock. Again, it's important that whatever you buy is tuned for your weight. If you buy an off the shelf unit and have to change the spring for your weight it's possible the valving would need to be re-tuned to get the most from the shock.
I believe the 696 has a Marzocchi fork. Traxxion Dynamics makes replacement cartridges.
My opinion is the suspension upgrades will give you the most bang for your buck.
I'd avoid aluminum sprockets...not enough longevity.
Quote from: jcmjrt on February 01, 2013, 12:50:49 AM
Wow! 17 1/2 pounds is pretty significant.
For sure.
The Termis only lost 6 1/2 ibs, the rest was off the battery. My Shorai battery weighs 2lbs. My old Monster had one of those ancient lead acid types that are no longer oem. It was like a Hyundai battery [laugh].
The battery on the old M900 sat quite high under the tank so it was very noticable. You may only save 6-8 lbs, but that is still substantial.
My Penske shock saved 1 3/4lbs over the Sachs.
Shaved 2lbs off the flywheel.
Light clutch parts saved 4lbs.
Etc, etc.
It's a sickness. :D
QuoteI think that suspension upgrades sound very reasonable, however, weight loss can be pretty significant for improving handling...I'd guess especially for we who are a little smaller.
QuoteYou have two goals, lighter and better handling.
They don't necessarily follow the same path.
"I" think, reducing weight (for short riders) makes difference more in a situation such as
1) getting on / off the bike
2) pushing the bike backward while still sitting on the bike
3) parking lot maneuver / u-turn (real slow speed maneuver)
4) going off balance, you may or may not drop the bike
5) pushing the bike on uphill
rather than "handling" (especially at street riding pace.)
For that purpose, better strategy is to focus on
1)reducing weight where hi and far from the center of the bike
(eg, handler bar, mirror, fuel tank, tail section, exhaust (silencer), front and rear fender,etc)
2)moving weight (heavy components) "in" (closer to the center of the bike) and "low"
(this is what BMW did with M3(E46) CSL ... , focusing on moving the weight "in" (center of the car) rather than raw amount of weight could be reduced.)
So, "cost effective" way to do things ...
I'd say
1) suspension upgrade
It would make the biggest difference at reasonable cost in "handling" (assuming that you'd get the one that's tailored to you, not off the shelf stuff) at this stage.
2)Reducing weight in exhaust (silencer )
This would make most difference the way you feel when pushing the bike around / picking it up. ( losing 5-6 lb at that location (hi and far back of the bike) makes more difference (in the way you feel) than losing 3-4 oz around the wheel hub area, even though silencer is sprung mass and brake rotor and rotor retaining bolts are sprung and rotational mass ...)
then, you can start shaving off a bit here, a little more bit there ...
Quote from: ducpainter on February 01, 2013, 02:17:35 AM
I'd avoid aluminum sprockets...not enough longevity.
http://ca-cycleworks.com/products/final-drive/rear-sprockets/50602l-46 (http://ca-cycleworks.com/products/final-drive/rear-sprockets/50602l-46)
This is what I run, steel
Same here.
It's a good compromise.
Thanks for some really good info and food for thought. After I get a few ergonomic issues dealt with, the next big one will probably be suspension. I'll do some searches on here for Ohlins, Penske and Traxxion. Is Lindeman well thought of in the community; he's local. Of course, any time I need to replace a part, like when the battery goes (who thought I might be looking forward to that!?!) and I can shave weight, I am headed in that direction. I didn't know you could save up to 4 pounds with just lighter clutch parts. I do believe I feel myself catching the sickness. :)
I had thought a fair amount about rotational and sprung weight but hadn't really thought of the exhausts as both a source of a few pounds and at a location - high and back - which is particularly ripe for weight loss. And the lightened rear sprockets are a great idea when I end up changing out the chain, etc.
A lighter flywheel would save weight but would you get as smooth of a ride? I know that it being light it would power up quicker but it also powers down quicker too. Does it perceptibly change the way the bike handles?
the lightweight flywheel has been one of my favorite mods, hands down.
LE being local is handy.
The carbed flywheel was about 4lbs stock. The clutch very heavy. Flywheel weight can be a personal preference regarding smoothness and engine braking. You will need further advice on your model (than I can give).
Reducing the rotating weight of engine internals also contributes to handling agility, but people mainly do it to promote acceleration [evil].
LE has an outstanding reputation and you probably can't go wrong there, but Lindemann passed away a few (?) years ago and others are running the operation. I would try to get some current recommendations to be sure it's the best option for you. If you're local to LE you are also local to Catalyst Reaction and Dave Moss and Nichols and others. You are fortunate. A good local suspension guy is a huge plus.
BK
Another vote for suspension and wheels, in that order.
A good suspension shop should be able to re-spring and valve front & rear of your bike for about $1,000. It'll make a big difference...as much as you'll ever need on the street. Ohlins are nice, but unnecessary on the street IMO (nice though if you have the money). If you're local to Dave Moss, then that's where I would go...he's good.
Wheels will make a massive difference in handling. Massive. Sure they're expensive, but they're still the best bang for the buck as far as handling goes. Do your research on weights though. The Carrozzeria wheels are "cheap" for a reason...they aren't as light as other options. Unless something has changed in the 3 years since I researched and bought wheels, OZ wheels are the lightest for forged aluminum (Marchesini are about the same, but more money). Personally I think the OZs look the coolest too. BST CF are the way to go if you can afford it though.
I put OZ wheels on my 748 race bike 3 years ago. Keep in mind, it was a race bike, so everything that could be removed had been and it was already way lighter than a street bike. WHOA...massive difference the 1st time I took it out. Everything was noticable better...cornering, transitions, braking, maybe even a little on acceleration. Best money I ever spent on that bike.
I think your estimates for revalving and springing a Marzocchi equipped bike are low Triple J.
Quote from: ducpainter on February 01, 2013, 02:53:49 PM
I think your estimates for revalving and springing a Marzocchi equipped bike are low Triple J.
Possibly. I've had 3 bikes done and they all came in about that price, but they were all sportbikes (748, 749, R6) with adjustable suspension. I assumed it'd be the same for about any bike, but I'm by no means an expert.
Quote from: Triple J on February 01, 2013, 03:36:11 PM
Possibly. I've had 3 bikes done and they all came in about that price, but they were all sportbikes (748, 749, R6) with adjustable suspension. I assumed it'd be the same for about any bike, but I'm by no means an expert.
The Marzocchi equipped bikes pose a different problem in that the valving isn't user friendly.
The bikes you mentioned were all Showa equipped and components are available...not so with the Marzocchis.
OK, so now you have me looking at BST CF wheels (and selling a kidney or cornea or sumpin'). Dave Moss and some Keigwin track days look really interesting too. I'm just not sure I have enough time...although I'm willing to try. :) I've committed to sailboat racing this season so every other Sunday is getting eaten up....but those track days with suspension tuning and training and just having some good fast fun sounds like it may have to happen at least once or twice this year. I've never been to thunderhill. Is it a fun course?
Anyone taken any of the one-on-one training or suspension school? Is it worthwhile for someone who isn't experienced at the track? I did some mini bike racing a couple years ago and ride street but I'm DEFINITELY NOT some big fast track maven...more like old with breakable bones...but at least a little foolish ;)
You gentlemen are giving me some good reading and ideas for fun!
Thunder Hill is a great track, especially if it's your first time. Lots of safe run-off. Plenty fast and plenty challenging, too. I can highly recommend the Keigwin 2-day novice school. You'll get all the 1:1 you want, plus basic setup and a superbly organized event. Go with a buddy or two for added fun. I think the suspension school you refer to is geared to the advanced track rider/racer and has a minimun lap time requirement.
BK
Keigwins puts on fantastic track days, and T-Hill is definitely a fun track. [thumbsup]
Track days are the next step up from practicing emergency stops and defensive maneuvers you can't, legally, perform on the street.
Super +1 on light wheels, I was fortunate enough to put BSTs on my 900 and it changes everything. The biggest difference for me was not acceleration gained, but the ability slow down much faster, especially corner entry. I have put 5k miles on the new wheels and I am still getting used to how deep I can brake into a corner.
I would definitely spend money on suspension next.
Then work on going light on all your rotating and unsprung mass:
- Tires Michelin Power Pures, 2lbs lighter than previous Pilot Powers (as a set) which is equivalent to 6-8lbs of weight saved on the wheel (not sure how other brands compare, so too each his own...I am Michelin for life) due to the tire being the furthest from the axis of rotation.
- My Superlite Aluminum Sprocket is holding up very well (granted its only been 5k mi), but steel will likely outlast your ownership of the bike. If the Superlite lasts 20k miles, it will have cost me less than half a cent per 100mi. I can live with that.
- Flywheel makes a significant difference, I went from 4lbs to 9oz. and also saved a bit of weight on the clutch side. Turn in effort is greatly reduced, also aids ability stop faster as engine braking is increased. It will hurt your low speed operation, i.e. you will have to feather/work the clutch more. Personally, I am happy to overcome that detraction.
- Battery and other weight savings from the top down to lower your center of gravity. My 900's battery was high, under the tank. I went with a 12cell Ballistic Evo and it made quite a difference! Taking 8lbs from the top of the bike was immediately noticeable, so work your way down the bike with priority going to the heaviest, highest items.
Rotational mass reduction significantly improves deceleration/acceleration and reduces turn in effort.
Suspension increases stability, traction and your confidence (most importantly) through corners.
General weight reduction/lowering COG improves how "light" the bike feels.
Sorry for the ramble, but I am a devout follower of "lighter is better"! You are asking the right questions and the investment will transform your bike. I literally feel like I am pushing a pedal bike out of the garage now, and as you refine your bike it will become more of an extension of your body, until you only think and it reacts.