Ducati Monster Forum

Wanting the DMF to weigh in because apparently I'm an ass.

I paid $250 shipped for used Diavel master cylinders from a board member here. They were described as excellent condition with only a "1/4 of your pinky nail" mark on the ball end of the clutch lever and the brake side being "flawless." I didn't ask for photos because the member seems to have a good reputation here.

I receive them wrapped in shop rags and inside sandwich bags, coated in brake fluid. The clutch has three major scuffs on the lever ball, a gouge in the reservoir, and the cover and the lip of the reservoir is stained from brake fluid contacting it. The brake has no scuffs but is also stained in the same manner from fluid contact.

I messaged the member and did not get a response. I waited a week and sent another message and was told to send them back. I told him to hold off, maybe I get source replacement parts for cheap and not have to bother him. I looked around and decide it would cost me too much to fix them and I would still have stains. I asked for an address and get that three days later. I ship them out four days or so later and send the tracking number and ask for a refund. I also mention that it was frustrating to have to spend $25 to ship back parts I wouldn't have bought if they were described properly. He tells me he will refund my $250 when he gets the parts. Ok.

The parts are delivered around 2PM yesterday. I ask for a refund around 8PM. I'm told he has to look at the parts when he gets home. Ok. I check this morning and I have no refund. No knowing if I will ever get a refund, I file for a refund with Paypal and give him a heads up. I let him know to feel free to refund my shipping too. What the heck it doesn't hurt to try. I get my refund of the original purchase amount only with a note that I'm an ass for overpaying for shipping. He apparently only paid $5 to ship them to me. I also get other great comments via email about my mechanical aptitude and questioning my integrity.

I personally would make the buyer whole but I also am super careful never to inaccurately describe an item.

My shipping cost included a new box as the shipper won't insure items shipped in a used box, $250 worth of insurance, and UPS shipping. I thought I was being responsible with his items. Apparently I'm just stupid.

"Apparently I'm just stupid. "


aren't we all


too bad it all went down like that.

let me ask you this...what do you really expect to get from this? reality is it sounds like you aren't going to get anything ( sorry to play the devils advocate here), so why are you putting this out here? just as a general vent/rant?

I just wanted to take the pulse of the board and see what you guys thought. Do I have any reason to feel slighted? Or am I being an ass for even asking to be made whole?

honestly,
i wouldn't air the dirty laundry

take it as a loss and lesson, always asked for detailed pics.

I would like to think idealistically, it would be right to made whole....on the flipside...caveat emptor when it comes to buying something unknown/unseen...I kinda also lean moreso towards Raux though...

Yeah, I hear you guys. I just expect more from members of this board, even more so from a guy that runs a dealership.

After this thread was posted he offered 1/2 the shipping. Still no apology for misrepresenting the items. I told him to do whatever he thinks is the right thing to do.

Glad to see he voted.  [laugh]

His response to my "do what you think is right" was to say, amongst other things (bold added): "If you expected new masters at 20% of retail, you might have asked for pics. You received an amazing deal for fictional Very good condition masters."

Holy shit. Did he just tell me I got a great deal on some make believe parts?  [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] Holy shit that's some funny stuff.

I'm all for airing the dirty laundry. if a vendor or person here is a douche.....i want to know it.

I haven't any problem with airing dirty laundry either. This is a community. If we all lived amongst each other the same thing would be said just face to face.
That said, shame on the OP for not asking for pics. I mean why wouldn't you?

I know. I didn't ask for them because he's been a member here for a few years and I asked pointed questions to verify the condition. In other words, I chose to trust. You are right. Shame on me.

I had a similar experience; relied on the same things you did, didn't ask for pictures, and got the same (poor) quality part.

And got the same kind of BS response when I called him out on it.
HIM: "My tech told me it was in perfect condition."
ME: "He'd have to be blind to miss that."

From the same guy?

IMO, "good condition" is a term based on opinion and expectation.  I believe my bike is in "good condition" and would state that in an add if I was selling it, but that is for a bike that has lived in New York City since 2001 and has 66K miles on it.  I also agree with you that my expectation of "good condition"  would be higher for masters off something as new as a Diavel. 

That said, if he got the masters to you for $5.05 you could have got them back to him for $5.05, so that is what he owes you. 

How would we know?

Unless I missed something no names have been named.

i bought an entire bike unseen except for 'cycle trader' images ... yeah, i'm a
moron so don't bother with that comment.  i asked specifically and was told
that it was 'all original'.  when i received it, it had a destroyed upper fairing
(described as a small scratch ... you won't even notice it) and an aftermarket
brake master.  when i called them, the sales a$$ had the balls to ask me
"what did you expect, the original air in the tires?"

they have since closed, saving me a trip and the cost of a molatov cocktail.

i have since adopted a much stricter policy related to internet / mail order
purchases.  its a sad outcome, but i don't really trust people who are
selling stuff.  

The items weren't described as being in good condition. They were described as "excellent other then a 1/4 of a pinky nail mark in the ball end of lever" and "flawless."

About the $5.05. I value your opinion. I just thinking I shouldn't be out a dime since I was lied to.

Oops. I figured it was pretty easy to find via some searching. I bought the items from BlackKat, the Northern Ohio Ducati guy.

I didn't try.

Interesting...

and he wanted to be a sponsor here.  [roll]

If it's the same guy that Speeddog dealt with, then this would be the reason stuff like this needs to be aired.

I didn't say otherwise.

 [laugh]

Yeah, I was responding to the couple of guys that questioned airing this type of stuff. If this is the same guy, and Nick had let it be know, this thread wouldn't need to exist.

And I gave the guy every opportunity to make things right. Instead this is the note attached to my paypal refund:

Note:   
you're the dumb ass that spend $25.00 to ship. usps would have been faster and $5.05.

Normally I believe private transactions should remain just that.

I do think you gave him the chance to make things right, and monetarily he's come close.

What I don't like is this guys attitude with respect to the board rules and our members.

He's been spamming the board since he went to work with the dealer he works for, and has been spoken to about it more than once, as well as some of his threads in the classifieds being deleted.

I don't understand why anyone would do business with him considering the quality of service from our sponsors.

There is some truth to the old adage that you get what you pay for.

He didn't refund my money until I filed a claim with Paypal. I should send you the emails if you want to see attitude. And I edited my post above to include the message he added to the paypal refund. And he never sent the 1/2 of shipping he offered. I told him to do what he thinks is right and apparently that's to send $0.
I'm the wrong guy to cut off as a customer. 7 or 8 Ducs in 15 years. 3 sets of BST's. 7 or 8 exhausts and everything else under the sun. Yep, as Julia Roberts once said, "Big Mistake."

Diavel M/C's have been selling on ebay and the like for about $150 each so at $250 it was a good deal but not like I was stealing them or anything. I probably would have kept them and replaced the levers and covers if they werent fluid stained. That was the deal killer for me.

I have more than enough correspondence with him to be aware of his attitude.

I have been on both sides of situations like this. It is a tough call on the return shipping. Per eBay and most internet websites you, as the buyer, eat the shipping. Sometimes you eat it both ways so you only get refunded for the item. If you were wronged though I think you should be made whole. This also means shipping the part back the same way it came to you and refunded for that. If he only spent $5 and you spent $25 I can understand why he doesn't want to refund it.

This is why you always get pictures! Sometimes even pictures, video, trust, reputation, being a long time member, ect... don't help you though.

I hear you on the price differeance. I seriously doubt I could send the item from So Cal to Ohio insured for $5. It was about 5 lbs. The if it fits it ships thing is about $10 and doesn't include insurance.

And this wasn't ebay. This was a transaction between DMF members. I believe in a higher standard amongst ourselves.

OK...I suppose its about time I clarify all sides of the story here so this will be a long one....

Speeddog...As far as that Crank.. I told you my tech inspected it and it was fine but if you had an issue send it back. Never heard from you again about it and I'm fairly certain that you have bought something from me since...As have MANY members of the forum.

Now...to respond to Scott...I won't even address the issue of condition...A $250.00 set of radial masters with crazy low miles is not worth an argument about condition. There will always be disagreements on condition. I have to say I've been super busy already this riding season so I haven't been on the forum in a while and as a result I didn't see Scotts first PM about the condition, For that I apologize...I checked in a few days later and as soon as I saw it...said "Please return them"...

He then said he wanted to see what parts he would have to buy to put them to his standard...ok fine. A few days later he discovered the parts were too much and he wanted to return them. Again..not on the forum EVERY DAY... When I check in again (MIND YOU, HE HAS MY EMAIL FROM PAYPAL) he mentioned he didn't have the address any longer. I responded with my shipping info...

4 days later-I mention this because if I were in any hurry to get a refund on something I wouldn't wait 4 days- I get an email (YES, an EMAIL) with tracking information and asking for a refund based on the tracking number. I don't know anyone in their right mind that would do this..I said when it gets here, I'll refund the payment. He also mentions that he wants $25.00 for shipping...I'm sorry, thats absurd!

I paid $5.05 to ship them out to him (He didn't pay me for shipping either-it was part of the price) USPS PRIORITY MAIL...FLAT RATE...doesn't matter what it weighs by the way! Take it one step further..I don't care what venue it is, I have NEVER seen anyone refund shipping. Thats the reality of online shopping.

Yesterday, it gets delivered. I worked very late and didn't even open the box when I got home. Its been a matter of hours and he starts in about getting his refund/paypal dispute...etc...etc...again..odd for someone who waited 4 days to ship it. But I really wanted to look at it first. We've never done business before, so I trust him as far as I can bowl him.. What if he destroyed them due to ignorance in ability, what if he sent me back something that wasn't mine? What if the box had a couple rocks in it and not the masters at all... THESE ARE ALL THINGS THAT HAVE HAPPENED TO ME IN SELLING DUCATI PARTS HERE AND ON THE OTHER FORUMS..Point is I don't know him but from a few emails.

So, I apologized to Scott for calling him am ASS...but why should I jump through hoops to give him a refund for something I told him weeks ago to return to me with no questions, when he has taken his sweet ass time in doing so? He comes across as an impatient child...quite honestly, I was nasty too him, but good grief..RELAX MAN!

NOWWWWWW..... to address ducpainter...

We have had many PM exchanges. Even before I pissed you off I wanted to be a board sponsor. You never got back to me...thats fine. You have your reasons. I accept that. This place is great, more homey feeling than some of the other Ducati forums. I've met some great friends and many times referred people here.

That being said, there is some really bad advice being given, some misconstrued tech advice and always untrue rumors. I proposed to ducpainter that we have a section called ask a dealer to help remedy some of this. Not necessarily tech stuff.

In talking to other dealers, we all agree that when a customer starts out a statement with "I read on a forum..." that 90% of the following statement is horrific. Thats what I wanted to help with.

I'm by no means a bad guy. I'm realistic. Maybe arrogant due to the information I have access to, but not a bad guy at all. If you guys don't want me here, thats fine. I joined before I worked for Ducati in hopes to learn more about my hobby. I like to think I have made more friends than the few I have pissed off-albeit the founder of the forum.

I apologize to Ducpainter, Scott, Speeddog for all ill communications and to all of you who have read this thread and more so, wasted time reading my ramblings.

Why won't we address the issue of condition? Thats the entire issue! When you lie about the condition of course you are going to have problems with the buyer. You also seem to be hung up on "how great" the price is. The price is not great when the item needs $200 worth of covers and a lever to make them marginally acceptable. When you drained brake fluid all over them you devalued them even more. And to have you questioning my mechanical ability and other tech advice on the board when you violated the rookie rule in brake fluid? Seriously? 

Regarding checking in. You ignored my first PM. You do know we can see when your last login was right? Thats why I was forced to send you a second message.


No, I said I wanted to see how much the parts would cost to fix what you sent me. I did not say I needed to see if they would/could fit on my bike.

No, I did not have your email from paypal. I sent you money. I checked the transaction before I tried to mail them out and there was no address. I asked for the refund when I sent the tracking number because I was hoping you would be apologetic about sending me bad parts and want to refund my money. To say I may send you rocks or whatever is ridiculous.


I agree, I don't normally ask for return shipping. But when you lie about what you are selling why should the buyer be out anything?


Six or more hours after it was delivered I asked for my refund. You said to wait until you got home. I waited. The next day still no refund. What am I supposed to think? I have a guy flat out lie to me about something I bought and I'm supposed to chill and wait for you to get around to giving me my money back?


Arrogant due to the info you have access to? You have been around Ducati for what 2-3 years? Wow.

Sorry, this isn't failed communications. You sold damaged parts but passed them off as "flawless." That's an integrity failure. For any dealer to let you have access to peoples bikes/funds is a mistake.

Here is where you tell me the condition:


Here is the awesome quote from your email agreeing to send me $5.05 for shipping:

"I ll send you for 5.05 as that's what it cost me to ship them to you. I m not paying for your ignorance. You can pay for that for the rest of your days. Ass!"

I was going to lock this...but it's getting good.  [popcorn]

I think the shipping should be refunded. That's what I would do, and have had done for me when I've had issues. I've also done it for others when they've had issues because I think its the right thing to do.

On the other side of that, Scott should have asked for pictures. I know it won't solve 100% of misrepresentation but it'll get most of it.

Live and learn.

I'm shocked. I checked my Paypal and still don't have $5.05, $12.50, or $25. All this free press Kevin and you still haven't stepped up?

I agree. I've already said I blew it in that regard.

Here's some pics:

The crank you sent me is on the left.
Another crank on the right.
One crank is fine, the other is most assuredly not fine.

Either your tech has no idea of what the surface of a rod journal should look like, or you're trying to throw him under the bus to save yourself.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8244/8644558684_bc82c862f9_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/79721557@N02/8644558684/)

A bit closer picture to more accurately depict the 'fine' condition of the crank you sent me.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8528/8643463345_5de3d4cf69_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/79721557@N02/8643463345/)

Furthermore, I have most definitely NOT purchased anything from you since.

Thanks Duc  ;D

As I said, condition is about perspective. I learned long ago that its rare that people will agree on condition. I have other hobbies where things are bought and sold on a used market as well and there is a clear definition of condition. Thus, why when you first messaged me and I saw it...I simply said, PLEASE RETURN THEM. You're missing that point. As far as ignoring you.. I rarely actually log out... I have the same 8-10 windows open on my laptop at all times and when I visit, I do...but I have no reason to ignore a request for refund...its not like $250.00 is a huge sum of money and I'm flying off to retire on it...C'mon man...be realistic. There is no sense arguing or addressing condition when I just accepted that our opinions were different and told you to return them.

You said...Like I would put rocks in the box....I ASSURE YOU... I'm not the only one that has had this happen. Again... I HAVE NO IDEA WHO YOU ARE OR WHAT YOU ARE CAPABLE OF! You lecture me about how you gave someone a $360.00 refund for over paying you on something... OK GREAT..People NEVER make things up to seem more credible. TELL ME WHY YOU WOULD BE DIFFERENT THAN ANYONE ELSE? Why should I see you as this person with impeccable morals? We exchanged a few emails...

How did you not have my email from paypal??...Thats how paypal works. How did you suddenly start sending me emails if you didn't have it? Little hole in your story there.

I also never accused you of wanting to wait to see if they fit...It clear says exactly what you said...you wanted to see what the cost was to fix the parts you felt were not up to your standards.

As far as my quote about living with your ignorance...I apologized, but it really made no sense to spend $25.00 to ship them back. UPS Is so well known for the quality of care for the packages...so fast too!  [roll]

As I said before, I apologize Scott. I apologize to everyone reading this and wasting their valuable time. Scott and I will never agree on any part of this. Just too much water under the bridge, misinterpretations, miscommunications and annoyances on both parties!

Well as I said...never heard from you again. Never got a crank back. If you would like a refund, I will happily do so... SHIPPING TOO! ;D

I know. That wasn't so much picking on you but more a warning for others.

I posted two cents, but not being involved I pulled my post, awww hell I spilled the popcorn.    [laugh]

Condition is not about perspective. Condition is what condition is. Take a brand new part and tell me what marks, wear or damage it has. When you say something is flawless it should be without flaw. Not irreparably stained due to someone allowing the surfaces to come in contact with brake fluid. I just can't see how that is so difficult.


I paid you after I agreed to. You know what you sent me so you agreed to take them back after you realized I wasn't stupid enough to accept them. Why would you automatically assume I'm trying to scam you? Because that's what you do to others?

And I relayed the integrity example AFTER you already had the parts back. Why do I need to tell you a story to make myself seem credible?


I'm talking about your home address. Not your email address.


I stand corrected. I read your last post wrong. I will correct you in the fact that I wasn't trying to to fix them just to my standard, i was seeing how much it would cost to fix them to the condition you said they were in.


I have an idea. Refund my money. Then you can try apologizing.

As far as my integrity and credibilty. You really have no idea who you are talking to apparently.

Nick. Please post his description of the crank when he was selling it to you. I'd like to compare the two.

DP, this is about played out. I would like to see Nicks response prior to it being closed if you don't mind.

Disagree entirely.

If I was buying from "person unknown" I would ask for details pics for sure.  But... from within this community... from a longstanding member with whom I felt trust... I'd more than likely do as hbliam did and buy based on that trust without further question.  I believe that we in here ought be able to expect decency and honesty in dealings with each other above that which you'd expect "outside".

I agree.

I'd like to see it too.

Nick can post in locked threads if he chooses. It's a benefit provided to admins and mods. ;D

Locked...but this issue is not closed from my perspective.

Kevin's ad for the crank is long gone.
From my memory, his description was "Perfect to send off to Ben Fox for balancing/polishing/knifedging"
He neglected to use the word "repair".

In response to Kevin's contention that the tech told him the crank was fine.

Amazing what the search button can find.

From BlackKat's "BlackKat's Il Mostro Cafe 2.0 (85% done updates)" thread.

http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=48815.msg1011491#msg1011491 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=48815.msg1011491#msg1011491)

So, Kevin, when the tech took *that* crank out of *your* blown-up motor, did he say it was fine?
Did he say those rod bearings were fine?
Why did you buy a new crank and rods, etc, if they were fine?

You take a ravaged crank out of *your* blown-up motor, sell it to me without disclosing it's true condition, then when I call you on the phone, you tell me the tech said it was fine?

And you repeat that again here?

Holy shit. That's worse then what he did on my deal.

Seriously. Does Northern Ohio Ducati know this guy is "representing" them here?

Edit: Good memory Nick. Here it is on .ms

Anything to say Kevin?

The same thing I just said to Nick in a pm...

My tech advised me to buy another crank in the interests of time to get it to ben fox. He looked at the crank from the blown up engine and said it was usable. I'm not tech by any means! When Nick called me, I told him what my tech said and if he was not correct then he could return it. I never heard anything from him again! I was posting here pretty frequently, Nick could have said something at anytime...its been MONTHS, but I'll still willingly refund his money. Its never been a question!

I also noted that its amazing how nobody mentions the 100s of smooth transactions I've had.

I'm done posting here. Those on the hunt get their blood but I'm not going to be extorted into paying 25.00 when far less would have been faster and safer. I'll be cutting up my monster and putting all the parts on a Sport 1000.

Ducpainter and speeddog both have PMs from me.

You weren't extorted. You obviously don't even understand the elements of extortion.

Once I posted this thread I had no expectation of getting a dime from you. I posted to make sure I wasn't missing something and apparently I wasn't. I also wanted others to be aware so they could proceed accordingly in the future.

I took the $25 you just sent me and donated it to the DMF. It was never about the money, it was always about the principal. It was those five minutes I spent at the mail center asking myself, "Why the hell am I paying to send this guys crap to him?"

I hope you can reevaluate how you treat people you do business with. This is a very small community and we all know each other.

I don't think it matters whether or not you could have shipped for less. The $25 is what it cost him to ship the parts back to you properly and with insurance.

The way I see it, $25 to make it right and retain some shred of credibility, $0.00 to be black listed in many people's eyes. Mine included.

<edit> glad the money got sent but I'm still never buying from you </edit>

He just paid the $25 which I promptly donated to the DMF. I don't know if it helps his credibility. That's for others to decide. He paid the original $250 when I filed a claim with Paypal. He paid the $25 after I asked if his employer knew how he was representing them. I'm not sure what to think.

I have to agree with that, not required, but good business sense.  

Not now, a wee bit too late.

Its all good guys. In my time I made plenty of friends and obviously 3 enemies. In the next hour or so I'll be nothing but a ghost here, so love me or hate me I'll find someplace else to lurk.   [drink] [drink]  [drink]

I'm not your enemy. I don't trust you and would never buy anything from you or your business but what's done is done.

Edit: I see you deleted your business name from your sig line. I changed the thread title for posterity.

per forum rules...

no posting of any personal info.

This is done.