Ducati Monster Forum

Looks like a Yamaha track this... [roll] Or maybe Honda... [roll]

That's the sort of bold prognostication that keeps me coming back here  [roll] [laugh]

 [popcorn]

lorenzo in fp1, barely
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2013/May/130503a.htm (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2013/May/130503a.htm)

lorenzo in fp2.. then cal
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2013/May/130403b.htm (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2013/May/130403b.htm)

Go Crusty Cal!

Is Badley Smith really that bad? (No...that wasn't a Freudian slip.)

Smith is garbage and I hope they buy him out of his contract for next year.  Its a waste of a great bike that should have someone capable of getting results. 

This will be Cal's chance to prove he can fight all race and not crash/run off as he always does when the racing is tight.  I'll believe it when I see it.

did you watch the first 2 races?

I believe that's exactly why he made the comments. He always seems to be tight up there with the lead pack and then he makes a mistake.

That can happen when you have to ride past the bikes capabilities.

You guys seem to forget the guy is on last years chassis, and probably electronics, and still at the sharp end.

i was gonna say that   ;)

http://www.motomatters.com/analysis/2013/05/03/2013_jerez_motogp_friday_round_up_yamaha.html (http://www.motomatters.com/analysis/2013/05/03/2013_jerez_motogp_friday_round_up_yamaha.html)

The difference between the bikes was explained in some detail by Bradley Smith, who spent some time explaining to reporters just where he is struggling with the Yamaha. "I'm used to pushing 100% on 125s and Moto2 bikes, to try to squeeze everything out of it," Smith explained. When he tried to do the same on the Yamaha, he said, he just ended up making mistakes and going slower. The trick was to be as smooth as possible in the transitions, and to use the power of the bike to help slow the bike into corners. "Lorenzo is rolling off before me, but he's still getting to the apex faster than I am," Smith said, perplexed. "When I try to do that, it feels like I'm out for a Sunday ride to the shops." Corner entry was where speed was to be gained, by keeping the wheels in line. That is the diametrical opposite of a Moto2 bike, Smith said, where you used the clutch and rear tire to help slow the bike and get it turned. A lack of electronics on a Moto2 machine meant that subtlety was lost on corner entry, but this was precisely what was needed with the Yamaha. "It's like a 250 horsepower 125," Smith explained, where being smooth and keeping the wheels in line was all that counted.
 

fp3 cal
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2013/May/130504a.htm (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2013/May/130504a.htm)

QP: george, pedro, marc, cal, rossi, bautista, hayden.  several crashes.
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2013/May/130504qua.htm (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2013/May/130504qua.htm)

Yep.  Race one he got into a battle and ran off track.  There was no late race battling at COTA and he was fine.  Go back to last year and see him crash or run off multiple times when faced with late race battles.  I really don't care what bike he's on, I'm simply pointing out that he's historically mistake prone with faced with hard late race battles.  Whenever he strings off 3-4 races where he battles and doesn't screw up, I'll expect him to podium.  Right now I expect him to crash. 

Yamaha -> Honda -> Honda -> Yamaha

Looks like you were right

Ahhh... is there anyone else? [bang] [laugh]

Man I'm excited for this.

It's gonna be a hell of a fight between the spaniards.

today's race for 2nd was "very 2005"...

(http://www.valentino46rossi.ro/uploads/images/Gallery/2005/Contatto_Rossi_Gibernau_1.jpg)

The shits gonna hit the Spanish fan now. [popcorn]

I'm not gonna lie....

I was secretly wishing for Marquez to pull that on Lorenzo the entire race  8)

indeed  [popcorn]

 ;D  Not that it wasn't expected.......can't wait to hear what KS has to say about this  [coffee]

And the Crystal Ball Award goes to:

(http://sphotos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/390749_10151648917910769_1088543604_n.jpg)

hehe... Marquez should have showed him the middle finger for that.

(http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/303064_10151648817240769_1370714615_n.png)

i didn't get to watch the race, but looks like Marquez has the corner and Lorenzo tried to push him off the line.

(http://sphotos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/943472_593673913976471_152570720_n.jpg)

Best comment I saw on the net..

"Bravo, Marquez, you're racing not playing tennis."

No fan of McBrittlebones Pedrobot but good racing by him. Not that he needs my compliments. ;)

Shitty bump pass of the year so far by MM on JL. Yeah, I know it's just racing but still... [roll] Can't wait 'til he does that on Pedrobot ala the 2006 Hayden/Pedrobot "bump" one race before the end of the season. You know it's coming. McBrittlebones is in MM's sights. [thumbsup] [popcorn] [bacon]

lorenzo was just running his line. i wouldn't really say that marquez "had" the corner, but he did put himself right where lorenzo needed to be to finish his turn.

there are a few videos of this on youtube already, but this one has both the 2005 and 2013 incidents back to back:

Rossi Vs Gibernau (2005) / Marquez VS Lorenzo (2013) JEREZ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xSb6siDd2I#)

fwiw, lorenzo's obviously not happy about it, but he at least admits that he really left the door open for marquez to dive in there.

Marquez had that corner.
Lorenzo looks like he assumed MM would back off if he cut MM's line.

...not when he committed to the line he was going to take.  ;D

 [evil]

From the overhead shot it looked like Marquez had the line and Lorenzo turned into him.

Again, can't wait for him to pull that bump pass on Pedrosa and see what Puig has to say. [popcorn]

That was a bit of a Senna-esque pass there. Obviously not unprecedented, but arguably not entirely kosher.

I was a little surprised to see Lorenzo make a comment about "leaving the door open" at the post-race press conference. Do you guys think he really feels that way? Or was he just being a diplomatic Yamaha mouthpiece?

Mouthpiece.

He wants to put his moon landing spacesuit back on and beat MM about the head with his space helmet. [laugh] MM is going to be a meanace and a factor to be dealt with in the future. He will make his place in the big boy class (much like #58 did [thumbsup]) and end up putting Pedrobot out to pasture with Repsol. Just sayin'... ;)

Subtle, but, it almost looks like MM came in too hot and was just starting to stand the bike up, which caused him to hit JL and that helped him to hold the turn....

He had that same problem on a right-hand turn several laps earlier while trying to stuff inside Lorenzo, and had to stand it up a bit to avoid the collision.....

gettin' like NASCrap out there - the reincarnation of Dale Earnhart [evil]

I'm amused by both Jarvis and Lorenzo using the phrase 'leaving the door open'.  [laugh]

Lorenzo didn't leave the door open.
He took it off the hinges, set it aside, and cut the opening four times larger.
He's seen Marquez race, WTF was he thinking?
Even if it wasn't Marquez.... another racer has been on your ass all race, and challenged you once already on the last lap.
And you enter the last corner out against the curb.
[roll]

Watching the Rossi/Gibernau clip, Gibernau was five feet inside the line that *Marquez* took.

OK...I'm a Marquez fan! He was harassing JLo for most of the race...fantastic!  [thumbsup] It would have been a snoozer parade without him. Who cares if he'd punt his granny into the gravel...he's exciting to watch.  [bow_down]

+1 to Speeddog...JLo left the door WAAAY open.


Nice race by Pedrobot as well. 3 races, 3 winners.  [thumbsup]

If you watch Marquez' line, he didn't have the corner by any means until he ran into Jorge.  He was extremely deep and would have run it very wide.  I think Jorge was composed about the incident all things considered.  It was fair enough, but I know Jorge will repay the favor at some point.

Hopefully!

Marquez' take on the incident: http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2013/marquez+on+jerez+race (http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2013/marquez+on+jerez+race)

My favorite part: “If somebody did that to me…for sure, I would be angry - not because of the moment but because I would have lost a place on the podium. I can understand that but, anyway, I have said sorry.”

Vendetta time! >:( Like in old country [laugh].
The season got real interesting.
Jorge aint whining, he'll get him back and now there'll be nothing race direction can do about it, because "it was a racing incident" precedent. Respect for Jorge.

The only reason MM made the corner was because he hit Jorge. Jorge did make a mistake, but so did MM (maybe).  The door was open for sure because the Yams were running wide all day, but MM ran in too hot. An accident, or calculated to look like one I'm not sure. The kids good enough to make a dirty move look like a racing incident (like Rossi). It's a real skill, like tripping yourself up in the penalty area in soccer.

Jorge could have smacked the kid and paid the fine, but he'll wait. A dish best served cold. If he doesnt, I'll take that respect back.

I think that is the best summary so far.  Marquez was too hot and too early with no hope of holding an inside line. He was taking the chance that Jorge's wider line would be enough for him to squeeze through. If Mark was a tad quicker he might have been enough ahead that his rear wheel would have caught Jorge's front wheel and that could have downed them both.  Jorge just might have a little blood on his mind now. New lines in the sand have been drawn. 

 [popcorn]   [popcorn]

But at the same time, Lorenzo could have slowed let MM pass, MM goes wide, then Lorenzo takes the place with no bump..

goes the same way.
Lorenzo took MM's line, ok maybe it was a bad line, but Lorenzo pushed MM in. That's indisputable. otherwise as you all say, MM would have gone wide.

I'm with this school - these guys know their bikes better than anybody, but this had all the potential of both parties not making it to the finish (and possible injury?) and that's just not Cricket in roadracing.  I'll acknowledge to our supercross fans that - mechanically - it looks like a block pass  and the bikes just happen to have fairings and they probably weren't going that fast.

Way back in my club racing days - if I was leading someone on the last lap and they were "there" (although I NEVER looked behind me for some wierd, paranoid reason...), I would ride that last lap absolutely stupid slow in the corners, HUGGING the inside line on all corners at the expense of speed and proper corner technique.  I never "left the door open". Most of the time I got the trophy.   But it cost me once or twice when the corners really did have great line if a larger radius was used.

BTW - "our father who art in heaven, please give Nicky a new bike that works".  Great job by the Nick-miester, but 25 SECONDS from the front.  Gawd.  The test times this morning look encouraging, but not don't know the specifics.

MM did what he had done in 3 previous corners, come into the corner hot and overshot it. It just so happens that Lorenzo decided he wanted to be on that line at that specific time. I wonder if these types of passes are going on way in the back of the grid and we're just not seeing them.

Moving on to the more important stuff. I hate to admit it, but it looks like we only have 3 aliens. Rossi just did not have the speed to catch up, even when Jorghey and MM were going at it.

I don't remember Pirro being any good, but he kept the new Duc up and running with the old Duc, so I count that as a positive.

+1 koko

this just in.....

"MM made me crash, and he turned me into a newt"

- RDP

Good to see that the move to GP hasn't made MM any less batshit crazy.  I'm just surprised that he's been so crash-free. He's just waiting for a giant highside ala Lorenzo a coupla years ago.

First coupla laps -- WOOOHOOO!!!
Then -- snoooooooze
Last coupla laps --  WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!  (humpin' the screen)

Rossi is bummin' me out.   :-[

if you're in the last corner of the spanish GP, and want to keep your position on the 2nd step, and marquez has been on your ass for laps, you turn that corner on the rumble strips.  you don't give him an inch, cuz he's gonna take it.  let alone 5 feet.

i freakin' loved that move   [evil] [thumbsup]

i doubt we're gonna see that tbh


yeah.

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2013/May/130505a.htm (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2013/May/130505a.htm)

Speculation is that race direction will take action on Marquez's pass but they will find it tough to act after Lorenzo's post race admission that he left too much room (open) on the inside of the final corner and that it was a mistake to do so.

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2013/May/130506peevin.htm (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2013/May/130506peevin.htm)

Rossi giggled at times when trying to explain the incident. "You know, it's the last corner on the last lap. Jorge left him room on the inside. It is normal that Jorge is upset especially after the race. This is racing. Last lap, last corner. Two great champions. This is one of the good things (about) racing."

Looking at it again on my dvr Jorge did run a bit wide and I don't blame MM for taking a shot at it... ala #58 style. [Dolph] But he was in too hot for sure and used JL as a berm. I give him credit for young aggressive racing but I just as much give credit to Jorge for not punching him out after the race.

Payback is hell... and it will come. And again, I'm no Pedrobot fan but he ran a damn good race. But he'd better look over his shoulder all season for #93 and #99. I think Rossi will be in line with everyone else at the concession stand getting a brat and soda. [laugh] [popcorn] At least his season has to be 10x better than last year.

a la MotoGP pre-2007. 

all this talk about payback and whatnot makes me think most ppl started watching GP in the 800 era.  this is a contact sport.  leave the door open in the last corner of the last lap, you should expect that to happen.

if the attacker is out of line, that's what Race Direction is for.

Really?  It'll be pretty impressive if he stays relatively crash free.  By "crash free", I mean he can and will crash in practice and maybe in a race, and get a little banged up, but won't miss any races or race seriously injured (didn't JLo race with two broken ankles, maybe at Laguna?). I can't think of any fast guy who moved up to GP and didn't spend a year or two being blazingly fast and also chucking themselves off the bike in spectactular fashion.  It seems like consistency comes, if at all, with a couple of years under one's belt.  

yeah.. I may end up being way wrong.  but my feeling is he'll continue with the minor offs as he's done so far but won't miss any races with two broken ankles etc

I loved it as well (and was jumping on the couch, screaming at the TV ala Tom Cruise/Oprah), but I felt the same way about it as I did about the Sete move and about the Laguna move.  Great entertainment, but all of them seem like a bit too much.  Or maybe not?  It's racing.  I should watch more BSB.  Then I wouldn't give a shit about it.   

My initial reaction was that when Marquez plowed into JLo, MM's trajectory was not headed anywhere near the apex and he wasn't as a lean where he coulda backed it in, and even come close to making the turn.  That said, Lorenzo--who was likely thinking about the live koala cubs he was going to consume after the podium celebration--gave him the entire f'n track.  Like someone said (motomatters?), Sete was way inside of Lorenzo when Rossi sent him into the gravel.  That's a far cry from asking MM, who everyone knows is a nutjob, to not T-bone you at the last lap as a courtesy.   

Ultimately, the fact that both of them stayed upright is what's leading everyone to say that it's a racing incident.  If MM took him out, that'd be a whole different story. 

i agree.  and while i obviously argue in favor of MM's moves most of the time, i'm completely cognizant that it's a fine line.  but it's still a line.  if george were not on the track at all and MM took that corner exactly the same, he would have run wide but would have made it.  he was too hot to not make contact, BUT george left him a country mile to try.  and... it's the last corner of the last lap of the spanish GP.. W T F are you doing lorenzo?

more amazingly impressive were the 2 or 3 laps leading up to this where MM was winding up to that.  he was completely in control while being totally out of control, many times.  that kid is amazing.

It was awesome. He gets around the corner the same way Casey used to -- sliding the rear right at the apex--but the way MM does it, it shows up on camera more obviously.  Well, it was really obvious when Casey did it on the Ducati (it looked like he was going to crash every turn right between apex and exit), and little less so on the Honda.  But MM really lets the rear loose, and doesn't seen to give a fack.  It's soooo much fun to watch.  It's really obvious during the on-board shots.  They have me wincing the entire time cuz I'm CERTAIN he's going down.  But he's not.  I'm a fan.  [thumbsup]

+1 MM was like a tornado around JLo's calm lines all race. It's the only thing that made the race worth watching. No idea what JLo was thinking. The way MM was cutting apexes off so much that his tires were inches from the grass was fantastic...you could telll he was just dying to get around JLo...MM is awesome!  [bow_down]

I don't see a "payback" from JLo either. He never paid back Rossi for bumping him out of position a few years ago, and he won't do anything to MM. Unless "payback" means bringing an enhanced focus to put his head down and break away from everyone from the race start...he may do that.

nah.  he already conceded that he made a mistake.  and he's grown up a lot since the 250 days.  he'll just go out there and be fast.


and so will pedro.

MM has replaced Stoner in my heart

I understand the debate, put anyone who says that Marquez is not the infusion of talent, attitude and SHEER WILL TO WIN GP has needed for years.  He combines the same abilities Stoner had on the bike with a determination to beat you for 2nd or 7th of Bayliss or Foggy....this kid is the real deal! 

I don't care, everybody at the top has been too chummy over the last 3 years.....now MM is stirring the pot and getting people fired up.....this is racing!

I hope Lorenzo rolls his sleeves up, I think he has another level, MM might just bring it out of both he and Pedrosa.  I want to see real emotion, real pressure that forces mistakes and makes every decision count from free practice through Sunday.

+1 to that

It was awesome watching their riding styles contrast with each other

MMs style certainly reminded me of Stoner in some ways (from the couch anyway). It was a good race from the point of view of seeing how each rider with their individual styles also had to ride the different bikes in a certain way at that track

I have never seen the Yams which normally turn so well, struggle to keep a line and run wide on the exit

Same corner, different day:

Jorge Lorenzo VS Joan Olive Copa Aprilia il passato che ritorna (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzKTWsoIx18&feature=youtu.be#)

Confused me.  which one was lorenzo

The one who did the knocking down.

Lorenzo was Marquez.   ;D

so everyones' talk about Karma is backward... Lorenzo got his  ;D

True.

How many fathers have advised their sons :

"don't drink too much"
"dont speed"
"avoid fights"
"respect the law"
"treat her right"
 ;D

Spose Jorge grew up.

Remember that Jorge used to be 48.

go watch, ehh.. ALL of his 250 races.

Yup. Pretty much why I put him in the same dickbag category as Marquez. Stonkin' fast or not...doesn't change the dickbag factor.

Second to last sentence made me LOL --

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2013/May/130503sx.htm (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2013/May/130503sx.htm)

Priorities.  [laugh]

Oh Billy. You are so Silly! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oYsgHR5a7U#)

Bradl did have the best answer of the Q&A session.  [laugh]

so.....to get a factory ride...... one must become the factory ride.


-the sphinx

fixed it for ya! ;)

be the ball Danny....


na na na naaaa....da da da da dadaadadadadada...ta ta ta ta tatatatatataaaa....ba ba ba ba ba babbbbabbababaa..

After watching the vid 50 times, I see Jorge running into Marquez.

yep.  apparently he knows the move marquez made and probably felt that can either defend it or he can blame marquez after if it didn't work

Meh.  Watched it again a bunch of times too.  Look at Pedrosa's line coming into that corner just ahead of them.  He's on the wide side as is Rossi following.  It's only Marquez who dives inside early out of the four of them. So I dunno, except that given the pace that both of them were on Jorge should have been covering his ass a bit better.

Marquez had no line into that corner.  He just hit the brakes late and bee lined straight into the apex.  Its a racing incident, but whether or not Jorge hit Marquez, you have to admit Marquez had no line whatsoever at the point he came into contact with Lorenzo.  Usually on moves like that, the outside person turns in underneath and wins the battle.  What I think happened was Marquez just kept braking because he was deep into the corner and Jorge got tboned, when normally the inside rider would wind up wide on the outside and lose the drive onto the straight.  That is a sharp corner and Marquez either doesn't keep braking and runs off track, or keeps braking and forces Jorge to either hit him or run off track.  Jorge loses either way due to Marquez literally parking his bike at the apex.

Again... bump pass. Sometimes OK sometimes not. MotoGP isn't motocross. At least no one went down or got hurt. [thumbsup]

schwantz's take: http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2013/May/13050834x34.htm (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2013/May/13050834x34.htm)

We are looking for someone to blame because they touched. MotoGP has becomed so pussified that any sort of contact is inexcusable. That doesn't seem to be the case in the lower categories. Let these guys race!

^ that.

No anymore!   [thumbsup]

doesn't stop george from being a jackass:

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2013/May/130516rydernotes.htm (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2013/May/130516rydernotes.htm)

What a moron.

Also, Jorge wants the system codified: one point for a rub, two for putting someone off-line, and so on

Points for putting someone offline?  [laugh] That's called a pass!!

he's starting to remind of that kid that always brought the football to the park but if he got tackled too hard he would quit and take the ball home with him.  [thumbsdown]

fwiw, what's the point of having a penalty "system" if the rules aren't well-defined and enforceable?

if you just have an arbitrary "yeah, that might've looked like it could've been a little shady and maybe we should think about a penalty or something" system, what's the point of creating a new system at all? they've had that since forever!

I agree with that. JLo's suggestions just seem silly.

The problem is, it comes down to judging *intent*.

Did MM intend to bang fairings with JLo?
Did MM intend to put JLo on the deck?

I'd say no.
JLo obviously feels different.
Capi probably feels that MM gave him way too much room.  [laugh]

The obvious ones are easy (like Capi's where he blasts Harada into the kitty litter *and* doesn't make the corner).
But there's lots of gray most of the time.

I think we can confidently say that JLo is unlikely to enter WSBK.  [laugh]

I still am of the thinking that JLo intended to bang fairings with MM to prove a point and lost

Yep. Like someone else said...the WSBK guys are wondering what all the fuss is about. The BSB guys think MM should have been more aggressive.  [laugh]

I also agree it would be hard to set up guidelines for the point system, except for obvious infractions.

it not like Race Direction has been shy about penalizing MM in the past when he should have been penalized.  something JLo ought to pay attention to.

the whole codify thing is just idiotic.  maybe we should cover the bikes in impact-sensitive wrap, then the computers could tell you if that was technically a Rub or a Bump. 

what a dipshit.

Jorge, despite his prediliction for snacking on live hedgehodges, kinda has a point.  Before all of you lose your mind, I said kinda.    Basically, he's asking the question, albeit like a moron, about under what circumstances they're gonna actually start using the point system.  To be sure, it can't be codified, but if that Marquez move doesn't earn MM a point, what will?  MM has already suggested an answer to that question -- if he'd done that same move in the middle of the race.  George is raising the issue of whether the point system is going to be toothless.  And I bet that Race Direction listens.  For all that so many people around here hate whining, it's the squeaky wheel and all that . . .

In the end, the problem may be with the point system.  But we won't know that until we see it operate (or not operate). 

If Rossi had been the one to punt Lorenzo, would we be as wound up about it or jumping up and down in celebration?

if you visit history, specifically jerez 2005, you may find your answer...

no one got punted.

ANY other class of moto racing this happens in every race.