Ducati Monster Forum

First full season watching MotoGP, so got a lot of learn.  Few questions:

- On Speed, announcers were talking during Austin race about how COTA was a Honda track, not a Yamaha track.  What is the difference between the two bikes that makes a track Honda/Yamaha?

- Why do Honda/Yamaha dominate MotoGP but Italian bikes dominate WSBK?

- My understanding is: Marquez's whole elbow-touching technique is result of him leaning over more and so the bike itself it a bit more upright, thus allowing more tyre contact.  All things being equal, this is an advantage because he gets more traction.  Is this correct?  If so, (theoretically) when I ride would focusing on leaning my body more rather than leaning the bike provide greater traction (I understand my conditions are VASTLY than MotoGP, but still, at low speed turns does this hold)?

Derby or gm2 will correct anything I get wrong below!  ;D

The Yamahas are more corner speed bikes, while the Hondas prefer the corner to be squared up with a good drive out. The hairpins at COTA favor the Honda style. I don't think the Yamahas used to be like that, but it's JLo's style, so they've evolved to that style over the last couple years with him being the #1 rider.

In MotoGP, Honda/Yamaha have bigger budgets and more experience and engineers. Ducati is a relative newcomer, and went the wrong direction over the last few years. Now Ducati is trying to compete with a twin spar aluminum frame, which is new to them, while Honda/Yamaha have a ton of experience with that system. Not surprising that Ducati isn't on the same level yet. That said, they're "only" about 1-1.5 seconds/lap behind. Not slow...just not fast enough.

Aprilia currently dominates WSBK...but Kawi & BMW are close if not even. No surprise that Aprilia and BMW are full factory efforts (maybe even Kawi?). When Ducati dominated they were also a full factory effort. Ducati is doing anything but dominating now, but their current problem is mainly due to intake restrictors imposed because twins are given a 200cc advantage.

MM's skill is more than just body position and traction. It's overall technique (body position, braking, etc), combined with natural talent, and huge balls. Correct body position is always a good goal though, especially at the track. You're correct in that hanging off means the bike's lean angle is less and thus the tire's contact patch is larger. Sport Riding Techniques and Total Control are good references for proper riding techniques, including body position.

That's three separate threads.

The Honda and the Yamaha are designed differently.  The Honda is a point and shoot bike.  It's fast in a straight line and is designed to get through corners not based on carrying corner speed, but based on sliding the rear, standing the bike up early and getting on the power as early as possible.  So, tracks with a lot of straightaways, tight turns and stop and go braking tend to favor the Hondas.   The Yamahas are designed for balance and to carry corner speed (like Lorenzo does).  They do better at more flowing tracks.

By Italian bikes, you mean Ducati and Aprilia.  They've 'dominated' for different reasons.  Ducati has owned the series for years because they focused on WSBK when no one else really did, and because the rules have often favored the Ducs.  The Aprilia is different.  First, as a production bike, it's the closest thing to a GP bike one can get.  So it's already ahead of the curve.  Second, Aprilia doesn't have a GP team, so the factory's racing focus can be on WSBK.  Third, the Italians haven't been shy about making low batch production models of their bikes that are basically race bikes.  The Japanese factories don't do that because . . . I guess because no one is going to pay 30k for a CBR.

As for the leaning/hanging off thing . . . Marquez hangs off the bike a lot, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he is standing it up more.  The purpose of hanging off is that you *can* stand the bike up more, but you don't always do it.  From what I've seen, Marquez still carries a lot of lean on a GP bike (ala Moto2), when he could be standing it up earlier.  It works for him, but just b/c he's waaaaaay off the bike doesn't mean that he's getting on the meat of the tire earlier. Watch Pedrosa for an example of getting a bike stood up early.  The elbow thing?  That's  just the new fad, and it looks f'n cool.  

For your riding, hanging off some will help, but for street riding, line selection is way more important than whether you hang off the bike.  In principle though, as long as you stand the bike up, you will have more traction hanging off than if you do not.  Finally, the issue is not really more "tyre contact".  Motorcycles have a decent sized contact patch when they're on their side.  The issue is more  whether can put the power down to the ground without losing traction.  The more upright the bike, the easier it is to get power down to the ground and the less likely you are to run out of traction while cornering.

Like Triple J said, if you want to figure out the "hanging off" thing, do some book reading.  You'll find it really interesting.

Just be aware that there are all sorts of ongoing arguments about the how to steer a bike, why hanging off works, and what are the best/fastest/safest ways though a corner.  But Sport Riding Techniques and Total Control are good places to start.   [thumbsup]

Thanks all. [thumbsup]

Follow up: Don't the teams adjust the bikes for each track?  If that's the case, can't they dramatically alter the set up of the Yamahas for a straights/Hondas for cornering?

Also, guess it's time for a re-read of my Total Control.


Yeah, I guess you're right.  But as I continue to watch and more questions arise, I'm coming back here.  ;D

Good points by Spidey on the contact patch (among other things). The issue isn't the size of the contact patch like I said, but how much of the contact patch is being used to resist lateral cornering forces. The farther leaned over, the more that is being used by cornering forces. One of the books relates traction to a scale of 1-10, with 10 being all the traction that is ever available. When upright all 10 is available for acceleration, but when at full lean maybe only 1 is available for acceleration (the rest being used for cornering). Hanging off (in theory) stands the bike up more, freeing up more of the 10 points for acceleration.

They do adjust them, but not dramatically.  They can't change the fundamental nature of the bikes.  The engine location, the frame stiffness and flex, suspension brand and components, the way the bike is designed around the tires, and a million other things give the bikes their character.  You can't change those things.  Besides, GP bikes are such fickle machines and are so infinitely adjustable that the last thing anyone wants to do is "dramatically" alter anything.  They'd spend the next two years chasing their tails trying to figure out how to get the bike sorted again.  Once teams get a baseline set-up for the bike (that matches the rider), then it's just tweaking.  A LOT of tweaking, a lot of super-sophisticated tweaking, but still just tweaking.  Dramatic changes are for when something is dramatically wrong.  Like with the Duc.   :'(

Dramatic changes on the Duc have ranged from a whole new frame and swingarm to changes in the electronics to try to control the power output. The only thing they have not done is to start from scratch. But this is done during the offseason and on the lab bikes. Usually when they find something that works, they take it to one of the few test days they get with the factory riders. The riders the  decide if they will use anything new during the season. Also remember that the rules kinda limit the more drastic changes, since those most likely force them to use up one of the 5 engines allocated for the season. I haven't been watching MotoGP as long as some of the guys here, but if you watch racing weekends on any of the European coverage, you should be able to catch up relatively quickly.

By "European coverage" do you mean MotoGP.com subscription or some other channel?  I don't hate Speed coverage, but I'm not thrilled with it either.  I imagine any coverage of practice rounds would talk more tech, so I guess I'll try to DVR some of that.

 [bacon]

Eurosports or MotoGP.com are good examples. These are available to download for free if you know where to look.

one thing not mentioned is that the M1 is an inline-4 and the RC213v is a.. V.  this makes for power delivery characteristics that you can't change.  settled in the corner vs grunt, basically.

re Marquez, elbow dragging really isn't all that new.  Hopkins was doing it all the time years ago.  many others on the grid do it today.  stoner was all over the side of the bike everywhere, just trying to keep the bike stood up as much as possible; i'm sure if he had a slightly different style his elbow would have been down a lot also.

what makes MM unique is he does it in damn near every corner and he's found a way to get maximum lean everywhere without sacrificing speed or control.  watch the last few laps of jerez again.  the kid is amazing.

and while aprilia has won a couple times lately (by building a race bike, then putting some lights and mirrors on it.  and by going through a huge number of engines per year), and wsbk was the ducati cup for quite a while during the time that the japanese OEMs were less concentrated on the series.. and ducati would sell an R racer to anyone.. and twin vs 4 power wasn't so distinct.. and bayliss was there.. other than all that, suzuki, honda, and yamaha have all won 1 or more wsbk titles in the last 10 years or so.  when kawi left MotoGP they literally sent that entire staff to wsbk.  that's why they missed the title by half a point last year.
 

Historical note, Aprilia merely took a page out of the Honda RC30 Manual.  [laugh]

Yeah, I figured it wasn't new, but I did see some slow-mo on the Speed coverage of Austin(?) where Pedroso and MM were going around a corner and MM (w/ elbow+knee touching) clearly had the bike more upright.  It was a nice visual comparison.

Okay, watched Le Mans yesterday.  I was surprised how much the tires got ripped up in wet conditions.  But my question for the week has nothing to do with that.

(http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii603/1pt21GW/null_zps167b4041.jpg)

Why the leg hanging off during corner braking?  Searched DMF but couldn't find discussion of it.  My gut is that it makes things less stable.  Clearly, I'm wrong.

[yeah, i know the picture is not from LM or even this season.]

wet tires in drying conditions take a beating because they get too hot.


riders seem to think they have "more feel" under heavy braking.

What derby said.  Originally, it started when riders would take their foot off the peg--or it would come off--under hard braking, I think it order to shift.  Though he was not the person to originate the leg off, once Rossi started doing it a bunch, then everyone followed suit.

An added benefit is that sometime riders will hang it off extra wide to prevent someone from passing.   Rossi and SuperSic (RIP) did that a bunch.  IIRC, Crutchlow (and maybe Dovi) does it a bunch as well.

We should retitle this thread. 

"Feel"?  I figure you mean the nebulous meaning of "feel" as in musician feeling the beat or a QB's feel on his throws.  Iinteresting that a hanging leg can affect that.  Anyone here done this (Triple J #98?) and can ellaborate on feel?



Open to suggestions.  Basic Pro Racing Tech & Technique?  MotoGP Questions?  1.21GW Gets Schooled?

I vote MotoGP for Dummies

I've thought about trying it, but honestly, I have more than enough crap to worry about on corner entry now without also messing with my leg!  [laugh] I am nowhere near the speed where dangling a leg will make a bit of difference! None of the fast guys in our club do it either...yet.

I do think there might be something to it though...when the fastest riders in the world adopt something new, then it shouldn't be dismissed IMO. Even Bayliss used to do it...although to much less an extent than now.

I have drug my elbow though...I was crashing...but I drug it!  ;D

I've tried to dangle my leg a coupla times at the track just to see what it does.  I couldn't even get comfortable enough with it to notice any effect, good or bad. In club racing, dangling a leg seems like a good recipe for either a crash or a dismemberment courtesy of a gixxer piloted by a Marquez-wanna-be. 

I appreciate that you used 'dummies' and not 'idiots'.  [cheeky]

I dangle my leg like that...just before I kick a stick into someone else's spokes!  [evil]

and it makes me sad.

Simoncelli?

Good article below comparing Yamaha to Honda re: Lorenzo's walk-away victories this year:

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/racing/honda-vs-yamaha-handling-horsepower-motogp/ (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/racing/honda-vs-yamaha-handling-horsepower-motogp/)

Most of you probably already get all this, but it was very educational for me.

http://youtu.be/0RAHGqMX-qg (http://youtu.be/0RAHGqMX-qg)

I'm learning that maybe I should stop clicking on your video links, kopfjäger.  [bang]

It's part of racing. Men have been killed in Moto sports since it started.

Check my NASCAR  and LeMans threads.

“Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports … all others are games.” – Ernest Hemingway

Ok, question of the week:

When the leaders start to lap the back of the field, how do the guys getting lapped know someone is behind them that they need to let through and not just some guy they're competing against for 17th place or whatever trying to pass?

http://www.motogp.com/en/MotoGP+Basics/flags_lights (http://www.motogp.com/en/MotoGP+Basics/flags_lights)

They're shown a blue flag

A lot simpler answer than I was expecting.  Flags just like track day!

I just rewatched Faster and it occured to me that there were a lot of high-sides on those 500c two-strokes.  The movie talks of how beastly those things were.  Nowadays, I only see low-sides in MotoGP.

It made me think: has the advent of electronic assistence changed the way MotoGP bikes crash?  That is, did TC and ABS reduce the probability of high-siding?  Or am I just working off of too few a number of observations?

Yep, the riders now rip open the throttle just as they're coming out of the corner. The ECU will calculate lean angle, front wheel lifting and rear wheel spin to determine just the right amount of power.

There isn't ABS.

But the answer to your question is YES.  There are two things at play here.  (well, there are a million, but I'll talk about two).  First, the switch from 2 stroke for 4 stroke engines.  Second, electronics.

2 stroke engines have a really non-linear power curve.  The power goes from nothing to EVERYTHING all of a sudden.  I've heard referred to as "getting on the pipe."  The sudden change in power as one got on the throttle made the 2 strokes ripe for a high side.  When the power poured on, the rear wheel would spin up and launch the rider to the moon.  4 stroke engines produce power in a much more linear and predictable fashion.  So even before lots of TC was introduced, the switch reduced (or should have reduced) the number of high sides.  then again, take a look at Lorenzo's rookie season.  Youch!

Electronics have also played a MASSIVE role.  As you can see from Pedrosa's crash last weekend (where MM clipped his TC sensor to his rear wheel and he immediately high sided), the riders have learned to trust their TC.  They're basically riding in a fashion that w/o the electronics, they'd crash every turn ('cept for a couple weirdos like Rossi and Stoner and *maybe* Hayden).  The electronics are dialed in to adjust not just for wheel spin, but for engine braking, and dialed in for each corner.  So, the computer controls how the bike is set up by corner.  Or rather, by each part of a corner.  It's a level of tuning that one could never achieve without electronics.  Basically, they have a bike that has different set-ups in different parts of the track and depending on how far along they are in the race.

It's a lot harder to high side because the bikes just won't let you.  Because electronics allow the riders to be that much closer to the edge of grip without worrying about the rear, they're much more likely to lowside because they just lose grip on the front (which is not controlled by electronics) than they are to spin up the rear (which is).  

yes frequently but not always, of course.

1.21: go look up some videos of garry mccoy riding a GP bike.    [evil]


also, occasionally in modern times GP bikes will 'forget' where they are on a given track and the result is usually disastrous.

???
more detail please.

See Nicky Hayden in Indy last year. ECU was somehow reset and delivered full power on a corner where Nicky did not expect it.

not a drug reference.  ;D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansion_chamber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansion_chamber)

Re: leg dangle...

I just did a day with Dale Kieffer and he explained it (then showed me in practice and got me to do it). Instead of keeping your body aligned with the bike completely during braking, if you hang off to the inside and help set the bike up for the corner, you don't have any weight on your inside peg at all. All the forces under braking go through your BENT arms, torso and then your outside leg to that outside peg. Just like dragging a knee (or elbow) is nothing more than a feeler gauge for your lean angle (you can pull it up off the ground and still be at the same angle, after all) dangling the leg is a reminder to the rider about their position as they trail brake into the corner.

It's also a pretty big chunk of mass that you've now moved forward and down a lot (think of your rearset position on the bike: high and at the back). The bigger picture is to get your body in the right (awkward) position off the bike during braking and to get you braking "lighter, longer "... Trail Braking all the way to just before the apex at some corners.

Trying "the leg" to copy the MotoGP guys: no benefit at all. Trying it after Dale's lessons: wow, the bike turns a lot better and brakes a lot later.

so Lindz, what you are saying is it helps set up the bike for more comfortable and controllable trailbraking due to ballast movement more or less?

Yeah. But not nearly enough to be the only way to ride the bike, and as you can see it's only on certain corners (heavy braking after a straight, mostly). It's equal parts mental and physical.

It's a byproduct of an unweighted inner peg. The actual dangle is a conscious decision on style/technique. If that makes sense....

sorta....at the very least, color me moreso intrigued

Ok, new season coming, new dummy questions:

I hear a lot of talk about whether certain teams will choose to be 'open' this season.  I think it has to do with restrictions on specs or number of engines or something, but can't quite figure it out.  Anyone care to share some details on what it means?

Open bikes get more fuel, more engines, softer tires, and use the spec ecu.

Advantages/disadvantages?  My interpretation:

More fuel: obviously, without pit changes, that must mean more fuel for testing.  Not sure this seems like a big plus for going open.
More engines: effectively allows for more crashes. 
Softer tires: more grip = race advantage, however I imagine some riders are willing to take less grip for a tire that isn't shredded by the end of the race, allowing them to push harder in the final few laps.
Spec ecu: seems like a disadvantage, since I've read that HRC has threatened to leave if a set ECU for all teams is implemented.  I'm guessing that the factory (i.e. rich) teams have an advantage with ECU mapping.

How'd I do?

More fuel means they can run the engines richer, better throttle response and more power!
More engines allows them (specially Ducati) to continue development throughout the season making all sorts of changes to make the bike better
Softer tire allows for better grip on colder tracks. You'll still see the harder option when they go to tracks like Sepang.
Spec ECU allows for less tuning. So you can't program for every corner for instance, but most people think that the series will be forcing everyone onto the spec ECU within the next few years, so those early adopters should have some advantage.

More Fuel (20 L factory vs. 24 L open) = more power.

More Engines (5 Factory vs. 12 open) = Ability to tune them for power, not as much for durability (so, more power). The development issue is also there, but that's mainy a Ducati thing.

Softer Tire (available for open bikes) = I'm not sure this is a grip issue, as the current GP tires have unreal grip. I think a softer tire might just mean that the open teams have more tire choices with regards to stiffness...which may translate into getting the bike set-up quicker/easier/better.

Spec Ecu: EVERYONE runs the spec. Magnetti Marelli ecu this season. However, Factory teams get to use their own software with it, while the Open teams must also use the spec. software. Advantage/disadvantage has yet to be seen.

The fuel limit is 'on bike' and only affects fuel usage during a race. The testing time is limited, and there is unlimited fuel available during those tests.

The guys covered the rest.

Got it.  Thanks all. [thumbsup]

Factory = faster
Open = slower

With the Ducati exception:

Factory = slower than dirt
Open = faster, but still slow.

One of the interesting things you'll hear about the "more fuel" debate is not just that it allows for more power.  There's a lot of talk about how less fuel fewer options for how to deal with power delivery.  For example, the Ducati is known for really sharp/abrupt power delivery when getting on the gas out of the corner.  With more fuel, they could design a fuel map to ease to the power delivery.  With less fuel, they have to worry about fuel conservation and they're having trouble dealing with the power delivery through mapping.  So the fuel thing is not just straight-up OOMPH.  It significantly affects how the power is delivered, which similarly affects feel, handling and drive.

More engines isn't just that they can tune the engines for more power (cuz who cares if one blows up).  It also allows them to do significant engine development throughout the season. With only five engines, the Factory teams aren't going to be able to change engine location in the chasis.  That's fine for Honda and Yamaha, who have pretty well sorted bikes.  The Ducati still needs a lot of work, and that could involve moving the engine around.  They're not going to be able to do that if they only have five engines to play with.  The mounting points for the engine can't change, which limits the ability to mess around with the chasis and weight distribution.  In short, having 12 engines is important to development of the bike.

There was a lot of concern about how the electronics would play out.  So far, it doesn't seem like it makes that huge of a difference.  It might play out differently as the season goes on.  What seems to make a big difference is the hardware differences.  The Honda Open is way down on power b/c it doesn't have pneumatic valves, and significantly slower because it doesn't have the seemless gearbox.  That said, Stoner was only .3 a lap slower on it in the fall.  But he's Stoner.  He's a freak.  He was even fast on the Duc, which NO ONE has managed to do. 

Additionally, the 'factory' option is not only just 5 engines for the season, those 5 get sealed at Quatar, so the engine configuration is frozen for the entire year.

Is that new? I thought they could seal them whenever.

New for this season, yes.

How do they deal with the open bike engines WRT sealing?

I've not heard or seen anything specific on the sealing of the Open engines.
I'm assuming that it's the same as last year's protocol, a new engine can be presented and sealed at any time.

Standard definition of 'assume', of course.

I've not heard anything regarding how they control the configuration of a 6th (or subsequent) Factory engine.
Perhaps it's not controlled, so an updated engine could be supplied with the requisite one race pit-lane start penalty.

From motogp.com...

In exchange for running the spec software, Open teams are able to run up to 24 litres of fuel per bike (as opposed to the decreased amount of 20 for Factory Option bikes) as well as being able to use up to 12 engine units per bike per season (5 for Factory Options). Perhaps more significantly, Open runners are not subjected to the new engine freeze regulations which would allow Ducati to work on engine development during the year, as the Italian marque strives to return to the front of the grid.

Is the engine their real problem?

 ;D I wouldn't be surprised to hear Ducati is going to try using the frame as a gas tank (Eric Buell's revenge)...

Depends who you talk to.

Biggest issue is if they need to alter the frame mounting points on the engine, they're screwed if they run 'factory'.

+1 The engine might not require any changes, but with the bike's lack of frontend feel, they might need to mount it in many different configurations.

we are glossing over the fundamental problem with Ducati. Development lead time is too long. Having the option to update motor and actually doing it are two different things. Mid season before we see an update.

is it a for sure thing the spec ecu and software for next year? Duc should go open.

They need something they don't have - a visionary

That's not necessarily true. HRC and Yamaha both have a very good basic package. Every year they have incremental changes that really improve on the solid base. Ducati is lacking that base so they spend too much time during the off-season on getting it up to par. Also, the other 2 manufacturers have huge R&D departments, so they probably have a prototype that is 2 years ahead of what their using now. Their development never stops. If they find some component that can be useful to the current bike that is not engine related, they can apply it midseason. There are some exceptions, like Yamaha's seamless tranny. It still took them a year to develop and implement it.

Pictures from all three classes.

http://motorlikes.blogspot.be/2014/03/class-of-2014-motogp.html (http://motorlikes.blogspot.be/2014/03/class-of-2014-motogp.html)

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-r0KhkZLEiXE/Uyw7lqRP5gI/AAAAAAAAAxQ/pc-0iAykoZ0/s1600/10001029_10152211001378855_2049340865_o.jpg)

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-6XJLSD_Viu8/Uyw7lhsYqqI/AAAAAAAAAxI/hvj0Lzy3yBM/s1600/1965472_10152401144885769_598693381_o.jpg)

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-XJXyWt9kKSs/Uyw7lvdBO0I/AAAAAAAAAxE/m_VxxJzRgCI/s1600/1978302_452825998182611_1330679702_o.jpg)

Ok, new season starting and time for more dummy questions.




I'm considering getting the MotoGP subscription.  My alternative is to go every Monday night after the race to a bar in Williamsburg that shows the MotoGP race (and sometimes the Moto2 or 3 race).  The up side of this is that there are other riders, including our own Howie.  The downside is that it's not an easy commute unless I ride my bike, but if I ride I can't drink.  Also, I'm not always free on Mondays, so I don't get go and only end up watching half the races in any given season.

Anyway, opinions on MotoGP subscription?  Worth it?  What am I getting worthwhile other than race footage?

I've subscribed for the past 5ish years. I really enjoy it. The announcers are extremely knowledgeable and you get access to all races of the past. I will never get tired of watching Rossi and Stoner fight it out in Laguna.

It's worth it.

Go to the motogp.com website and poke around to see what's available. You won't be able to watch the videos, but I'm pretty sure everything else is visible.

There really is quite a bit of content.

+3 on it being worth it. This is my 3rd season with it...fantastic!

or just watch it on Fox Sports 1

Oooh, I didn't consider the archived race option.  As a relative newbie to the sport, I have a lot of vintage races to view.  How far do they go back?





Yo no tengo cable.

1992

I typically watch MotoGP during the season. In the offseason I catch up on the Moto2 and Moto 3 races...so I get racing year round.  ;D

It's definitely worth it.

Now that the euro isn't worth much more than the dollar, the hit isn't as bad.

One of my favorite options is that I can shut the announcers off.  ;)

Is it worth the extra 40 EUR for Multicam feature?

I've never had it. Don't know if it's worth it.

Viewed it in a 'test' package, but this will be my first season using it for races. I figured its the cost of a meal and a few drinks.  :P

It allows you to watch battles further back. It's very rare to even get a glimpse of the open bikes. I've never actually subscribed to it, but mostly because I'm a cheap ass.

At many of the places where I live, it's the cost of just two drinks.  :(


Ok, think I'll get the basic package this year.  If I'm hooked, I'll upgrade to multicam next year.  Thanks for the replies.

In case any other motogp dummy besides myself is reading this thread, I found this helpful summary of 2015 rules.  Very helpful, at least to me.  Why is this so complicated?


http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/motogp/motogp-2015-rules-primer/ (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/motogp/motogp-2015-rules-primer/)

Because any racing body wants two things that are occasionally in conflict: 1) for the fastest racer and best machinery to win, and 2) for the racing to be close and exciting, with some skin in the game for fans and sponsors of a wide variety of competitors & teams. If it was just #1, the rules would simply say "Bring a motorcycle and stay out of Marquez' way."

Interesting, because other sports bodies that I follow like NBA, NFL, etc. seem to favor #2 significantly over #1.  Sure, there are some rules (home field advantage in the playoffs, bye weeks, etc.) that support #1, but they realize that #2 is what puts asses in the seats, gets people to tune in, fans to buy gear, and just plain generally funds the whole machine.

But I get that this is not an apples-to-apples comparison, since moto racing requires $$ and equipment to a degree and in ways that aren't really the same for ball sports. 

Not to mention that the Nascar approach to motorsports, which can be argued generate #2, might not be the best match for all motorsports.

The complicated rules are all related to cost IMO. If everyone had the budget of Honda, then I don't think we'd see much in the way of rules. 2 wheels, 1000cc, naturally aspirated...have fun!

Since everyone doesn't though (not even Yamaha), rules are created to try and level the playing field, thus creating closer racing (in theory). Whether it works is debatable, as some rules (like banning dual clutches) end up costing more...much more.

Not to mention that teams with the big budgets can engineer around the rules, like the seamless gearbox.

The gearbox rule is a great example of how rules designed to cut costs often do the exact opposite. Honda spent a TON of money making the seamless gearboxes so they didn't violate the ban on dual clutches, which effectively forced the other factories to follow suit. In the end though, they have a similar thing, at a much heftier price!

It's easy to make Honda the scapegoat, and say they're the evil empire and all. The reality is EVERY race team does what it can to engineer around the rules though. Honda just has the budget to do a better job at it...not their fault.

Well worth it, turning off the commentary is awesome. Choosing the footage I want to view is excellent.  [thumbsup]

Did you just quote yourself to make a comment supporting yourself?  That was some inception shit.  [laugh]

In any case, I'm enjoying the commentators for now but if they get annoying I may pony up the meal-and-a-few-drinks to go with the fancy option.  As long as they keep producing races like that last one, Dorna can have all my money.

Ok, new question time:

I get the limit on engines and how it varies from factory to satellite teams.  But what does the limit actually mean?  If Jorge has a nasty high side in qualifying and the engine is seriously busted, does that count?  If not, what does count and why would a race team crack open a new engine if the current one is still working, i.e. what kind of wear or problems occur?  Finally, what type of tuning changes CAN the team make once it cracks an engine?

If George highsides and lunches a motor...too bad. It comes out of the allotment.

The two factory teams that are under the low engine limit of 5 per season have all the variables worked out as far as to how many miles the motor needs to run, and will bring out the next engine when one in service reaches EOL. They really can't afford a failure during a race.

The engines are sealed. Once sealed they can't be opened for any reason and then returned to service. They are returned to the race dept at the factory and examined. The sealing does not include gear boxes which are open to allow for gearing changes.

Thanks.  That quenches 50% of what I was wondering.  I guess what I'm getting at is: what changes can they make and what can't they make once an engine has been unsealed?  I mean, they can change the oil, right?  And as you mentioned, gearing.  But I'm guessing they can't bore out the cylinders.  But can they replace a piston? Or even a piston ring?  

Forgive me if the question is trivial, but I'm trying to reconcile the idea that you can't alter an engine buuuttttt that constant testing and racing will require some maintenance as well as invite subtle tweaks for performance improvement.

They can't do anything...maybe oil changes...but once the seals are broken that engine can't be returned to service.

The factories have to submit all their engines for sealing prior to the start of the Qatar GP meet. They can't make any development changes during the season.

The Open bikes, and factories with concessions don't have to submit an engine until they want to use it, so they can make constant changes on any remaining engines.

That's the reason Ducati threatened to go to the open class. They knew they'd need the extra testing and engine development required to get competitive.

Dorna countered with the concessions to keep them as a 'Factory' entry.

Got it.   [thumbsup]

Smartest move for Ducati ever

They can do oil, cooling and IIRC even clutch plates/hubs, as seals do not cover those inlets.

I see there's an iPad app for MotoGP --- costs $25.00 (iOS App Store)

1) Can live races be watched with the app (I don't think so)?

2) Does the MotoGP subscription include this app?

Thank you.

1) No, unlikely. The VideoPass is $100...$150, so I don;t think $25 are going to make it :D  Could be you get a month free (a month is about $25).
2) You do not need an app to watch MotoGP streaming. But yes, MotoGP has one.

I don't know about watching live races.

I don't use an ipad to watch.

I use my laptop hooked up to the big screen. ;D

My understanding in "no".  I tried to download after I subscribed to motoGP and there was no way to do it without paying (i.e. no, "motogp users sign in here" or whatever).

Thank you, all.

I travel a lot for biz and wanted to be able to watch on the pad when not booked in a hotel (e.g., stream at a public library, B&N, Starbucks, etc.).  When in a hotel, I can always use adapter to run laptop video to the hotel room's TV.

If MotoGP.com subscription is browser-based, then pad would work without any app.

Oh, well, maybe I'll have to book some work in NH so I can plop down in front of the big screen with a cold one  ;D  [evil]

Or perhaps a tasty cocktail.

I believe the motogp subscription will work fine with Safari.

It doesn't work very well with the browser built in to the tv, but that's a problem with the tv not the service.

I use a chromecast to send it to my tv.  It's $35 and the size of a USB drive, so would be easy to take along with you when you travel.

Cool, thx for the recommendation...will try it.

I do notice that it gets choppy sometimes, which can be frustrating.  I've identified it as a chromecast issue and not an internet speed issue since althought it may get choppy on my tv at times, my laptop remains smooth.   But, like I said, for $35 it ain't much of a investment to give it a try.

Plus, it works great for HBOgo (not choppy at all) and similar streaming sevices.

I just plug the laptop into the tv with an HDMI cable.

Cable runs though the wall and is invisible. I can do that from a couple of locations. It probably cost me more that $35 bucks though. [laugh]