Ducati Monster Forum

I have been slowly working on a air cooled superbike build around a 749 frame & engine. After reading others issues I thought I was being wise in using the 749 cases to match up to the frame, but I have found a new problem.  The 749 uses external oiling to the cylinder heads, the testastretta based air cooled top ends all seam to use internal oiling to the cylinder heads.  I have a few thoughts on how to deal with this, 1 would be to drill the oil ports into the cases, I assume the passages are there they are just not opened. 2 would be to run external oiling to the cylinder heads, the 1100 evo rear cylinder has a port for the oil temp sensor, if the front cylinder has a similar port that should be a good option. If not that I know some of the 900's use external oiling to the cam covers it may be possible to retrofit that to a latter head. 3 would be to change cases, I am not sure if the 848 uses internal oiling to the cylinder heads, air cooler bottom ends would require modifications to fit the frame. 
Does anyone else have experience with this? Is there an option I am missing? Advise would be appreciated, thanks

You should be able to externally feed the oil to the heads.

Likely through the left side cam end caps.
May need to get some of the aftermarket billet end caps to get enough meat to thread into.
Beware, AFAIK 1100 end caps are different from 696/796... there's a thread here somewhere on that.

Or there *may* be a gallery that you can easily drill into.... but I've not got an 1100EVO head to look at.

The oil feed to the head is restricted by the bushings at the cylinder/head interface, you'll need to mimic that.
Not sure where the 749 oil feed to the head is restricted, you'll need to figure that out.

I'd plug that gallery in the head at the cylinder/head interface, avoiding leaks there and at the base of the cylinder.

use MTS 1100 motor

Thanks speeddog, Ill have to take a closer look at that, I think the restriction is in the clutch cover, I do not see any in the lines or head.

Even though the MTS motors have the nawrow cases, I think the swing arm pivot is still in a different location, I could be wrong.  They can be slotted to work, but I was hopping to try to use what I have.

the location of the swingarm pivot may not be in the same location but the 749/999 have the spacers can be made to lower the pivot in the frame.
I think Taftanamos came up with a solution

http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=37734.msg666220#msg666220 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=37734.msg666220#msg666220)

read this thread

All the air cooled hybrid bikes I have seen use an 848 case with 1100 air cooled heads, in a 1098 frame. But that's about all I know off hand. I could be wrong though.

I'll try and get a hold of the guy I know who built one.

Bruce Meyers did it at DNA.

http://archive.ridemerchant.com/classifieds/item/show/163663-ducati-air-cooled-superbike---1177-ds-r (http://archive.ridemerchant.com/classifieds/item/show/163663-ducati-air-cooled-superbike---1177-ds-r)

Only the bikes with the adjustable steering stem have the adjustable swingarm.  My frame is fixed in both locations.  I think going through the cam covers my be the best bet, as an added bonus this would allow me to better cool the oil to the heads as they could be run through a secondary cooler or use an st4 oil cooler with the extra outlet.

Yup that's pretty much the same set up. I just know of another guy who did it.

I remembered it was a new testastretta case with air cooled top end and something else that changed the displacement from the standard 1100.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ducati-Corse-999-RS-Sand-Cased-Crank-Case-Ducati-Corse-999-RS-GSE-Team-/281108203465?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item41735ac7c9&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ducati-Corse-999-RS-Sand-Cased-Crank-Case-Ducati-Corse-999-RS-GSE-Team-/281108203465?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item41735ac7c9&vxp=mtr)

 [evil]

Oh, hell, why buy those cases.

Since we're spending *your* money, you can just buy Bruce's bike for $20k.

[roll]

Did you ever get ahold of him? I got a chance to look at a set of 848 cases this week, unless they were mislabled 1098 cases they do not have the same cyl stut spacing as the 749/air cooled cases.  So either offset cyl studs were used or the cases were drilled offset.

Pretty sure the 848 cases were fitted with 1100 air-cooled cylinders.

AFAIK, the biggest air-cooled cylinders that will fit your 749 cases are 1000.

Unless I ended up with the wrong part, I am using 1100 base gaskets as a guide. They fit the 749 cases but do not fit the 848 cases I checked. With the Mic the 848 stud spacing is about 5mm wider.

The parts catalog shows the 1000 & the 1100 use the same base gasket. 

You will modify the cases so that the studs will work with the 1100 cylinders. But I'm talking about doing it with 848 cases and 1100 cylinders. You're better off just bolting in an 1100 engine. The only thing really gained from the 848/1100 build is extra oil capacity from the deep sump case. Which your 749 case doesn't have.

'04 749S 78610561A

'08 848 78610941A
'08 1098 78610941A

'07 S2R1000   78610861A
'07 MTS 1100 78610861A
'08 HM 1100   78610861A
'09 M1100S    78610861A

'12 M1100 Evo  78611141A
 '13 M1100 Evo 78611141A

I've got an S2R1000 head gasket and 1098 cases here, gasket will not fit over studs.
From the part numbers above, it will not fit 848 either.

That S2R1000 head gasket will not fit a 748 cylinder either.

I suspect the 1100Evo will fit 848/1098 cases.

Well the Evo and S2r use different top ends due to the dual spark heads. So it wouldn't surprise me the case studs being in a different orientation.

Interesting that the 848 & the 1098 use the same base gasket, I had heard that the 1098 got wider stud spacing than the 848 for the larger bore.  I will have to double check my part numbers but I think my test base gasket is the 786.1.114.1A Evo gasket.
The deep sump case is not a huge loss to me on this bike, though I do like the piston squirters that the 848 cases have.  I was mainly looking to see if I could use internal oiling to the cylinder heads if I switched to the 848 cases as the 749 does not have passages.

Another update with more information;
The base gaskets I was using for test fitting were 1100 EVO base gaskets so the EVO does use the same stud spacing as the 1x00 DS & the 749.
I contacted Duc shop as they are semi local asking if they had done any conversions on 848 cases & if they would be willing to preform the work.  They said that the studs can not be moved & shops that are preforming this conversion are elongating the holes in the cylinders & heads to match up with the botom end.  They do not recomend doing this, I can see how it could creat many issues when trying to get the cylinders centered & sealed.
So my hopes of having deep sump oiling & piston cooling jets may be over. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ducati-999S-999-S-2004-Engine-Motor-Block-Case-Cases-/290799258741?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item43b4fc8c75&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ducati-999S-999-S-2004-Engine-Motor-Block-Case-Cases-/290799258741?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item43b4fc8c75&vxp=mtr)


are the 749 and 999 the same cases?

I am not 100% sure if they are the same. I know 999 cylinders can be put on 749 cases with some modifications for a bore increase.  They do look to have the same issue as the 749 in that they use external oiling to the cylinder heads.  I am still looking into options of a cam bearing plate with enough material to add an oil port to, or drilling the cases for oiling as the locating dowl is in the same location as the oil spigot on the engines with internal oiling.

Base gaskets:

'05 999 - 786.1.087.1A
'05 749 - 786.1.087.1A

It may be necessary to bore the 749 cases to allow fitment of 999 cylinders, but same base gasket means same stud spacing.

AFAIK, the 749 cases have oil jets, they're just not the same as the 848/1*98 ones.

Yes, the 749 & 999 base gaskets do interchange.