i located some wheels for my car... wheels that i've been looking for that i love... and for a real good price. problem is, they are chrome... are there any issues with getting them powdercoated black? the wheels are 18", and the car is an '01 Porsche Carrera 2.
does the chrome need to be stripped as part of the powdercoating process? i guess i need to find a powdercoater local to northern new jersey. i wonder how much it would cost me...
I believe you'd need to have them sandblasted before powdercoating, but I'm not positive if that's the protocol with removing chrome. PM ducpainter or red baron- I'm sure they'd know.
Quote from: hangin_biposto on July 07, 2008, 08:05:21 AM
I believe you'd need to have them sandblasted before powdercoating, but I'm not positive if that's the protocol with removing chrome. PM ducpainter or red baron- I'm sure they'd know.
+1 [thumbsup]
You can probably save yourself some money by prepping them yourself or having a friend with blasting capabilities do it for you, however make sure you use the proper blasting medium so you dont pit/dimple the crap out of the base metal. Or if you're more comfortable just leaving it to the pros I'm sure you can find a shop that will prep them as well as coat them for you.
thanks for the input. unfortunatley i don't know anyone with "blasting capabilities" but i guess i'll check the yellow pages and see if i can get a quote. if it's going to cost me another 1k or more to get them the way i want them, then it's not really worth it.
Quote from: Magnus on July 07, 2008, 09:04:56 AM
thanks for the input. unfortunatley i don't know anyone with "blasting capabilities"
Ask the powdercoater first. He might even offer the service.
not likely to hit the 1k mark
Where I am, a set of 4 wheels is about $300. That's with them blasting all of them, masking what shouldn't get coated, and coating/baking them.
Blasting should be part of the service. It's the only way they can be sure the prep work is done correctly.
If the coating flaked the coater will say the blaster didn't do it right, and the blaster will say the coating was bad. No way to be sure ;D
Hmm.. that's not bad, not bad at all. I have also read that powdercoating wheels that were not originally "designed" to be powdercoated is a bad idea, something about the heat applied during the process degrades the integrity of the wheel? Any truth to that?
Also, does that same theory apply to anodizing? How is anodizing different from powdercoating? I understood anodizing to be a chemical process, but no heat... not sure if that's true or not. Also, certain anodized finishes do not retain their color very well over time?
Thanks!
Ill just comment on what I know personally.
The heat won't effect anything. It's only 400-450 degrees (well, it will effect anything rubber, like cush drives) That's not hot enough to do anything to steel or aluminum.
Powdercoating uses electro static to make the powder "stick" to the wheel. The wheel is charged one way (+ or -, not sure which) and the nozzle of the gun is charged the other way.
Anodizing works in a similar manor. The quick explanation on that is the aluminum (can not do steels like this) is charged one way, and is submerged in a bath that is charged the other way. Particles in the bath "replace" particles of aluminum on the work piece. The work piece is the anode (hence anod-izing)
Black will definitely degrade. TJR178 has a bunch of cycle cat stuff that constantly faded to purple. He had that stuff coated black for a permanent fix.
Don't know about other colors though.
Blasting chrome off a wheel might cost a bit more.
My experience is many coaters sub the blasting out which raises the end user cost.
i was told by one of these wheel makers that hard anodizing resists color deterioration better than regular anodizing.
the opinion on whether or not it's a good idea to powder coat aluminum wheels seems to be split... some say it's a bad idea, others say that at powder coating temps (400 degrees) it's not hot enough to cause any damage. i wonder if it matters if the wheel is a single piece or a 2 or 3 piece wheel?
I've done aluminum monster wheels and they came out fine. aluminum begins to melt at somewhere around 1100 degrees or so. no worries, mon!
thanks monsterlover... here's the wording from a wheel maker. plenty of people say it's okay, plenty say it's bad. although in my research, it appears science is on your side!
If the powder coater gets the center too hot it will bring it out of
its T6 condition and significantly weaken the part. Anodizing is done with
chemicals not heat.
Another thing to be aware of is the condition of the wheels.
Powdercoat and oily parts don't mix.
I was interested in having my boat motors powdercoated to resist rust, and I was told that the powdercoater would have to bake the motors overnight to remove the oil from the surfaces of the motor, or the powdercoat would flake off. Something about the oil molecules sneaking in between the steel molecules?
Just an FYI.
Quote from: Bun-bun on July 07, 2008, 07:31:24 PM
Another thing to be aware of is the condition of the wheels.
Powdercoat and oily parts don't mix.
I was interested in having my boat motors powdercoated to resist rust, and I was told that the powdercoater would have to bake the motors overnight to remove the oil from the surfaces of the motor, or the powdercoat would flake off. Something about the oil molecules sneaking in between the steel molecules?
Just an FYI.
That is true of any coating.
Powder is just paint without the solvent.
Paint and oil...bad juju.
no solvent? what fun is that?
Quote from: Monsterlover on July 07, 2008, 08:23:51 PM
no solvent? what fun is that?
none...
and it doesn't shine...
like liquid.
starting to rethink my original idea of buying these chromed wheels... going to be a big pain in the ass. i also found out that the company that makes them (kinesis) was bought up by another and these wheels are no longer produced. so if i smash one, good luck finding a replacement...
Quote from: ducpainter on July 07, 2008, 08:25:27 PM
none...
and it doesn't shine...
like liquid.
It does if you use silver as a base and do a candy over the top... you've never seen Tony's Monster in person, have you... ;) The frame looks like a red candy cane, it's badass.
Quote from: hangin_biposto on July 08, 2008, 06:25:23 AM
It does if you use silver as a base and do a candy over the top... you've never seen Tony's Monster in person, have you... ;) The frame looks like a red candy cane, it's badass.
May be so...
but the gloss of powder does not match liquid.
...just sayin'
It does have a different "depth" to it, doesn't it?
Quote from: ducpainter on July 08, 2008, 06:20:51 PM
May be so...
but the gloss of powder does not match liquid.
...just sayin'
These guys do some neat shiny things with powder: http://www.spectrumpowderworks.com/index.php
Hey Magnus I know a thing or two about Porsches. I am not a big fan of aftermarket wheels on these cars at all because I have not seen any stronger than the oem ones. The problem that you run into is bending the rim. About 80 percent of the aftermarket wheels I deal with, specifically on Porsches, come into my dealership bent. The reason for this is that the offset is very deep by design and this leaves the backside of the rim unsupported by the wheel center. All it takes is a good pothole. The factory rims in my experience are much stronger. We have had our bodyshop paint wheels black for us many times with very good results. They also did mine for me and they look great. Let me know which way you go with this and your results. Ill bill you later.
that is a good point, the oem wheels are pretty tough... i've hit some nasty potholes and other debris that has shredded the tire, but done nothing to the wheel. i just don't like the "turbo twist" style, that's all. have you come across kinesis wheels before? they are used on the track in many cases, though i don't know how strong they are compared to oem.
here's a pic of the wheels i was looking at... apparently they aren't chromed, just polished aluminum, which makes things easier...
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg216/mikesixtysix/911/kinesis_18_chrome.jpg)
and here's a pic of the wheels that i have (not my car, mine is black)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg216/mikesixtysix/911/9039_1909_0.jpg)
so powdercoated black, it might look something like this:
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg216/mikesixtysix/911/iris996dash477.jpg)
finished product... thanks to x136's photoshop skills...
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg216/mikesixtysix/911/3065876ax9.jpg)
got a price from a local powdercoater, $400 to do the set of 4. And he says at 400 degrees, there is no danger of damaging aluminum wheels during the process.
Quote from: Magnus on July 14, 2008, 12:18:08 PM
got a price from a local powdercoater, $400 to do the set of 4. And he says at 400 degrees, there is no danger of damaging aluminum wheels during the process.
I'd agree.
Mag is another story.
Mag + enough heat = kiss your [bacon] good bye [laugh]
i found out that aluminum melts at 1200 degrees, steel at around 2800 degrees... not sure about magnesium. i would imagine that you don't actually need to reach these temperatures to weaken the metal, though... what those numbers are would be interesting to know.
Quote from: Monsterlover on July 14, 2008, 02:44:31 PM
Mag + enough heat = kiss your [bacon] good bye [laugh]
When I worked at the fab shop we had a contract with Allied to fix missile fins.
We had a guy welding mag.
It was really bright.... ;D
As far as weakening the strength of the wheels under even a 500F degree temp, you shouldn't have a problem. For the metal to start to be structurally modified (meaning the crystalline structure of the metal is realigned such that the metal is comparably soft) you have to heat it up to (I believe, don't quote me) around 8/900 degrees F, and this is usually obtained by a much more direct heat such as a oxy and natural gas or acetylene torch. Essentially, the metal has to be heated to "red hot" where you can physically see the metal glow, but even then aluminum has to be quenched or cooled very quickly after that amount of heating for it to keep its annealed, or softened state. Then, EVEN IF your wheel was softened by such a process, both the physical act of riding or driving on the wheel and the wheel's (hopefully minimal) exposure to varying temperatures and moisture conditions will further harden it over time. Magnesium I think has around the same properties as aluminum and is a pretty frequent alloy material. The mix of aluminum you have will make a bit of difference as well, i.e. the ratio of aluminum to copper to mag to silicon..... bla bla bla. If the heating process does for any reason cause a stress at a joint or something of that nature, it's going to be a SUPREMELY poor weld and a wheel that you probably didn't want in the first place, baked or not. Here's a tasty little article that deals mostly with small stock and wire, but the rules should still generally apply.
http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/copperwi2.htm
Ok, I just finished the article myself and the end states that aluminum annealing is usually at around 570+ and immediately quenched after the fact. It's a bit closer than I thought, but you're still not at risk for metal fatigue.
excellent info, thanks
Any suggestions on color and brand of powder coating material to match Ducati champagne?
Quote from: Magnus on July 14, 2008, 05:21:29 PM
i found out that aluminum melts at 1200 degrees, steel at around 2800 degrees... not sure about magnesium. i would imagine that you don't actually need to reach these temperatures to weaken the metal, though... what those numbers are would be interesting to know.
The temps which cause metal to weaken significantly are fairly low, actually.
This is why the steel in the WTC failed despite the low temperatures, btw.
resurecting this thread...
After reading a bunch of stuff on aluminum, im still undecided on weather to powder coat them or not. Though aluminum wont melt till 1100, it is defintely possible for it to weak at a much lower temp.
Ive heard of a difference in reaction to the baking temperature of powders of cast vs forged aluminum wheels. The annealing of aluminum begins around 350-400 degrees from what most people say. However further research pointed that the anealing process of forged 6000 series aluminum is along the line of eight hours (could not find data for cast aluminum) because of this, i think a 30 minutes of outgassing and 20 minutes of 400 will not cause any significant damage to the wheel. at the same time, im not the one that wants to find out. My main concern is the fact taht i ride in the pot hole wonder land of america and do not want my wheels to break mid way...thats a easy trip to the morgue after a taxi decides to drag my body 30 miles across the city.
The census is still split down the middle. I have really do not have enough information to make an informed decision...
Also, it seems that this is true about swing arms too. Plenty of people PC wheels and swing arms....i havent been able to find any cases where a wheel broke in normal usage due to a cracked wheel/ swing arm either.
Anyone care to shed more light on this topic? I emailed the Myth Busters this question too!
lots of good information here. At some point there should be a realization that you are WAY overthinking this issue. wheels of all alloys and flavors have been PC'ed for years, you are spinning yourself up.
I disagree, i dont think theres lots of good information here just lots of people who have done them without issue... I called a few auto shops and asked if they would PC wheels. I got mixed answers. Its not safe to, what type of wheels, to sure no problem.
I have plenty of scrap 6061 T6 aluminum, and ill try to run some controlled tests, from what I read. Its very possible for 400 degrees to soften the metal. As Mr incredible pointed out, the point at which a metal weakens is far beyond that of melting. especially when there are moments involved. Specially in wheels, I think many of the reasons (if PC does indeed weaken the wheels) why they rarely fail, is due to the design of the wheel. Its much stronger then it needs to be. Which would make sense since i've found people with broken wheels after PC (of course they hit a curb or something). But the damage is quite significant, all of the spokes snapped and the central hub was left on the vehicle.
Take a look at steel, it melts at 2500F, but the failure point can be anywhere as low as 1300F and high as 2000F depending on its alloy...
you are going to do controlled tests to determine if a process that is already done...nevermind, enjoy.
I'm sorry did someone already test a wheel to see if the metal gets softer after baking it?
Link please.
and for each link you give, i can give just as many to refute it.
Who is right? who is wrong? Just because people powder coat their wheels doesn't make the idea any less plausible.
engineers.... [roll]
that's why you haven't found an answer. It's not right or wrong. It's a crap shoot. Hope it works in your favor.
OOh OOh
this is a perfect time for my much retold favorite engineer story
I was working at UMCD as a millwright
Myself and a grizzly old journeyman of undetermined age (guesses had him at 78) were dispatched to rebuild a 4 story lift.
when we got there, 3 engineers were standing there with fancy laser measuring devices, a handfull of plans, and literally scratching their heads
their determination was that the lift or surrounding bulkheads were misaligned and the lift needed to be completely torndown
the bulkheads remeasured
and possibly the floor torn out and replaced as well
this old millwright told 'em to piss off
had me hang a plumb bob from 4 stories up
loosened the 2 inch bolts in the floor with this giant metric adjustable he always had with him
hit the lift's main rails with a sledge hammer
and re tightened the bolts
all in the space of time it took me to return to the 1st floor
and the lift lined up within spec
The engineers left in a huff
;D
I prefer empirical evidence when available.
Lots of people have powdercoated their wheels without any problems. Therefore it is OK. ;) (I just picked up my Multi wheels yesterday from the powdercoater)
...and I'm an engineer. ;D
Quote from: Mother on February 25, 2009, 09:56:51 AM
OOh OOh
this is a perfect time for my much retold favorite engineer story
I was working at UMCD as a millwright
Myself and a grizzly old journeyman of undetermined age (guesses had him at 78) were dispatched to rebuild a 4 story lift.
when we got there, 3 engineers were standing there with fancy laser measuring devices, a handfull of plans, and literally scratching their heads
their determination was that the lift or surrounding bulkheads were misaligned and the lift needed to be completely torndown
the bulkheads remeasured
and possibly the floor torn out and replaced as well
this old millwright told 'em to piss off
had me hang a plumb bob from 4 stories up
loosened the 2 inch bolts in the floor with this giant metric adjustable he always had with him
hit the lift's main rails with a sledge hammer
and re tightened the bolts
all in the space of time it took me to return to the 1st floor
and the lift lined up within spec
The engineers left in a huff
;D
Millwrights (esp ones that have earned the Journeyman cards) are handy. I can't tell you how much money my Dad's saved me when I've had to fix something. He always has a 'try this first' option for me ~
JM
I like that story. Except lets replaced that with a big crane, and see what happened. OH THATS RIGHT people DIED! Don't you just love when people die because no one wants to make sure. Why are you so uptight that I'd like to see some real evidence? Or are you that guy that tries to fix everything with a hammer? Broken wheel? HAMMER TIME! cancer? HAMMER TIME! broken bone? HAMMER!!!
Quote from: lauramonster on February 25, 2009, 08:21:25 AM
that's why you haven't found an answer. It's not right or wrong. It's a crap shoot. Hope it works in your favor.
Atleast someone understands the whole point of this. Its a huge crap shoot. and as Taft pointed out, plenty of people have done it and have not had any issues. thats the best arguement thus far and the only. But...wait let me get my red pen out. hold on....
THE QUESTION STILL REMAINS, WILL THE PROCESS OF BAKING A ALUMINUM ALLOY WHEEL AT 400 DEGREES for 20-30 minutes CAUSE ANY CHANGE IN THE STRENGTH AND INTEGRITY OF THE METAL?
Answer: Hammer.
OUT.
Dude you're WAAAAAAAY overthinking this. No need to re-invent the wheel. (pun intended)
It's more than "plenty of people" that have done it. Every auto manufacturer out there offering alloy rims has powdercoated them since the seventies. (with the exception of chrome or the rare exception of bare)
I would say the same of motorcycles as well. The stock Marchesinis from my S4R are factory powdercoated.
If there was a metal integrity issue I doubt the process would be an industry standard.
Call a wheel manufacturer and see what they say since you don't believe us. Six pack of your favorite beer says they approve.
Already did everything you stated.
I contacted Marchesini(spell?) about 3 days ago and am still waiting a response.
QuoteIt's more than "plenty of people" that have done it. Every auto manufacturer out there offering alloy rims has powdercoated them since the seventies. (with the exception of chrome or the rare exception of bare)
Although your statement is completely right, it lacks research. What I've read (again on the internet, so its validity is questionable) Various people have contacted a number of wheel manufactures and the company stated that the wheels are Powder coated before the tempering process begins. (again, BEFORE the tempering process) Another company recommend not powder coating because the baking could affect the tempering.
My question to you becomes, are you gonna say I'm full of shit, their full of shit, or your full of shit? Everyone seems to be pointing at me, when im outright saying i dont know, id like to find out so im asking around but Everyone here seems to know so much about it except the real answer that makes sense.
If you want to discuss this go down to Accessories and Mods. Cause this is just ridiculous here.
I'm not at all saying you're full of shit. I, on the other hand have been wrong from time to time and could be the one full of shit. Can't speak for anyone else though.
I guess more than anything I would respect the wheel mfr. say on this.
BTW I had no idea wheels could be tempered after powdercoating. Assuming this is true could they be re-tempered after you get them back?
Just some food for thought...
see you in a&m
Quote from: Triple J on February 25, 2009, 10:28:57 AM
I prefer empirical evidence when available.
Lots of people have powdercoated their wheels without any problems. Therefore it is OK. ;) (I just picked up my Multi wheels yesterday from the powdercoater)
...and I'm an engineer. ;D
Yeah
but aren't you an exploding hills/melting rocks engineer?
you don't count
Quote from: Mother on February 25, 2009, 03:47:55 PM
Yeah
but aren't you an exploding hills/melting rocks engineer?
you don't count
Sometimes. Sometimes I design high pressure, large diameter steel/fiberglass/etc. pipelines though (nature of the tunnel industry). I also just generally think like an engineer...so I count. ;D
engineering students...... [roll]
[laugh]
Quote from: He Man on February 25, 2009, 11:11:52 AM
I like that story. Except lets replaced that with a big crane, and see what happened. OH THATS RIGHT people DIED! Don't you just love when people die because no one wants to make sure. Why are you so uptight that I'd like to see some real evidence? Or are you that guy that tries to fix everything with a hammer? Broken wheel? HAMMER TIME! cancer? HAMMER TIME! broken bone? HAMMER!!!
Atleast someone understands the whole point of this. Its a huge crap shoot. and as Taft pointed out, plenty of people have done it and have not had any issues. thats the best arguement thus far and the only. But...wait let me get my red pen out. hold on....
THE QUESTION STILL REMAINS, WILL THE PROCESS OF BAKING A ALUMINUM ALLOY WHEEL AT 400 DEGREES for 20-30 minutes CAUSE ANY CHANGE IN THE STRENGTH AND INTEGRITY OF THE METAL?
Answer: Hammer.
OUT.
um, the lift spec'd out so that makes it a funny story, no one died, it's ok
I think the more important question is
will the baking process weaken the wheels enough that they fail
or
are they overbuilt enough that weakening due to baking is moot
I would say that 40+ years as a factory and aftermarket finish has proven that it does not
but again
i say enjoy because it is obvious that the process of finding the answer is what is exciting to you so have fun with it
I'm not judging you...well i wasn't at first
now i think you do too many drugs
;D
/oldfart
ahhh the ignorance of youth
/endoldfart
Oh you engineers.
I have a really good buddy who works for Caterpillar designing suspension for their end loaders and moto graders who has a degree in Mechanical Engineering and Physics. I always say that he's never been wrong in an argument in his life, he's only slightly less right than whoever he's arguing with ;D.
Then again, I think like an Industrial Designer and the two professions generally don't get along.
IDer: Here's this thing. Look, it's pretty. I need to do this, this, and this and contain this this and this.
Eng: No
IDer: Awwww, why not?
Eng: You want the functionality of that in the size of this. It's not possible.
IDer: Sure it is, you just have to think out side the box! Just look at the iphone
Eng: You need to redesign your box to better fit your thoughts, and the iphone can suck it.
IDer: Killjoy (mumbled under his breath as he walks away)
Eng: Fruit
Quote from: Mother on February 25, 2009, 06:32:12 PM
now i think you do too many drugs
;D
How you talk.... [roll]
For the sake of completeness, I'd thought I'd post up on the results...
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg216/mikesixtysix/911/IMG_0586-1.jpg)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg216/mikesixtysix/911/IMG_0588-1.jpg)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg216/mikesixtysix/911/IMG_0589-1.jpg)
QuoteIf the powder coater gets the center too hot it will bring it out of
its T6 condition and significantly weaken the part.
I found this thread kinda late. T6 heat treatment is a multi-step process that ends with aging at about 320F. Whether or not heating it to 350F or so with uncontrolled cooling during powder coating for a short time will significantly weaken it I don't know. But it looks like there's some logic behind the opinion that it might do something...just sayin'.
He Man-you're still a student no? Go ask the material prof. He *will* know.
Quote from: MrIncredible on August 02, 2009, 11:12:53 AM
He Man-you're still a student no? Go ask the material prof. He *will* know.
Undoubtedly he's smarter than the prof...
most kids are.
Just ask them. ;)
Quote from: ducpainter on August 02, 2009, 01:41:03 PM
Undoubtedly he's smarter than the prof...
thats why i teach elementary children phyiscs :-*
As far as an update goes, i PCed my bike. nothing bad. atleast not that i know off. I PCed my rear wheel twice.
Quote from: Magnus on July 31, 2009, 04:41:15 PM
For the sake of completeness, I'd thought I'd post up on the results...
Hey - that looks really nice. [thumbsup]