Hi guys...
I noticed that there aren't any in depth belt change and valve check guides for the new monsters... well, at least as far as I can see...
the best one so far is here: http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=58791.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=58791.0)
but there appears to be a fair bit of discussion around whether or not the factory procedure should be followed and how hard it is to do 'properly'.
so I hope to put together a guide piece by piece - in the method the factory intended - and also make reference to any difficulties or set backs I may have....
***UPDATED GUIDE COMPLETED SCROLL DOWN***
Tools needed:
the best thing about this, is you can do this on your side stand... no special lifts or paddocks stands needed...
1) usual sockets and wrenches, mostly 8 and 10mm size
2) allen keys, 4-5-6mm (you would want these in sockets too, long preferably)
3) torx key T30 (cam sprocket bolts)
4) if you do this on the sidestand and the wheel on the ground, you'll need a crank turning tool, i used the motomfg one. (~$22)
5) cam locking tool (oem is around $25, or i can now confirm a 6mm drill bit or similar 6mm smooth rod would do the job)
6) spark plug remover out of your ducati tool kit
special equipment:
some kind of frequency measuring tool, such as JP's Courroies. JP's program worked very well with an external mic on my laptop. otherwise, people have made do with guitar tuning programs or just the simple "5mm hex key under the fixed tensioner roller trick"...
optional:
loctite 222
copper grease
torques:
if you were to do this by the book, you would need an accurate wrench that could measure out 10Nm for the cam pulley bolts, and around 26Nm for the tensioner fixing bolts. factory says to torque these dry. Otherwise if you are an experienced hand you could make do yourself and enlist the extra insurance of loctite 222.
so let's start... strip off the panels and the tank - plenty of threads about that..... and... now it's a naked bike..
(http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff509/wankski/20130901_184704_zps14813805.jpg) (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/wankski/media/20130901_184704_zps14813805.jpg.html)
belts - had a bit of trouble with this one... the horizontal cyl cover would not come off thanks to a bolt free-spinning... solution? attach hex bit to drill and spin it fast to melt the plastic while gently prying off the cover... did the trick real well... brass anchor well came off cleanly... will epoxy back on...
(http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff509/wankski/20130901_184709_zpsdad1d836.jpg) (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/wankski/media/20130901_184709_zpsdad1d836.jpg.html)
had to take the manifold off to access the belt, one of the studs came off w/ the copper nut due to rust.. the other nut came off fine... disregard what i wrote... i was tired... thread spec is 1.25 not 1.0... zzzz... i found that the spec is very similar to the suzuki RGV, and plenty are available in stainless or even Ti on ebay... you could also use a wholly threaded 46mm stud cut to size, if you wanted, but i ended up going with the oem parts from the local ducati dealer... they were cheap ~ $1.65ea, and $0.60ea for the copper nuts....
(http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff509/wankski/20130902_203625_zpsd39ea3e6.jpg) (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/wankski/media/20130902_203625_zpsd39ea3e6.jpg.html)
so, buy some new ones and take the other stud off using the 'two-nut' method...
(http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff509/wankski/20130908_172531_zps484a6304.jpg) (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/wankski/media/20130908_172531_zps484a6304.jpg.html)
inserting the new studs is the reverse... tighten the two nuts against each other and turn the bottom nut this time.. it will bottom out gently in the head... remember, no crazy tightening, that's steel thread into soft alloy....
ooh, shiny:
(http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff509/wankski/20130908_173927_zpsaac028ec.jpg) (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/wankski/media/20130908_173927_zpsaac028ec.jpg.html)
since there is some confusion about the specs of the factory cam locking tool, i took some notes...
here tis: (http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff509/wankski/20130907_161934_zpseac5709a.jpg) (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/wankski/media/20130907_161934_zpseac5709a.jpg.html)
it seems a basic m8 bolt, with the last 15mm length milled to a smooth m6 would do the job and would be a cheap tool to make... i wonder if motomfg would be interested? i thought of emailing them - but they were pretty disinterested in replying to my email enquiry about products there were advertising for sale...
shame...
the original tool is $25, and the manual suggests you need two for both cyl, but since u work on the vertical first, i don't see the need. that said, a m6 drill bit, inserting in the smooth end ought do the job...
i also got the crank tool from motomfg for $22, but it's not strictly necessary... but makes life easier.
Somebody who's first post is to give input [clap] [clap]
Welcome aboard wankski [thumbsup]
Looking forward to the rest of your write up (which you do realise will get probably moved to tutotials, doncha?)
You're in Australia I see.
We're taking over ;D
what's up mate. yeah i'm in melbs. thanks very much for the welcome.
sorry about the thread placement... totally missed the tutes forum...
i saw your 696 and now your 1100 in your threads.. :o mate... what can i say... you're a classy unit. [wine]
ung a mod? [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh]
classy...absolutely. [beer]
Quote from: ducpainter on September 13, 2013, 04:46:20 AM
ung a mod? [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh]
:-[ Just a humble contributor. And fellow Vic [thumbsup].
Forget the other board mate, DMF is the place.
Quote from: ducpainter on September 13, 2013, 04:46:20 AMclassy...absolutely. [beer]
;D
ok, so the belt job is done and was pretty straight forward...
remove access hole on left side of engine to access the crank:
(http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff509/wankski/20130915_161053_zps29d99b38.jpg) (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/wankski/media/20130915_161053_zps29d99b38.jpg.html)
insert your crank tool (makes life MUCh easier)
(http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff509/wankski/20130915_161222_zps478eb964.jpg) (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/wankski/media/20130915_161222_zps478eb964.jpg.html)
turn the engine until the crank pulley mark lines up with the mark in the case, use a large screwdriver to make sure you're spot on... once there the motor won't easily turn, no need for the factory crank locking tool (spendy $$$)
(http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff509/wankski/20130915_161536_zps9b3943e4.jpg) (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/wankski/media/20130915_161536_zps9b3943e4.jpg.html)
remove belts and tensioners:
(http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff509/wankski/20130915_162148_zpsbb989d17.jpg) (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/wankski/media/20130915_162148_zpsbb989d17.jpg.html)
insert locking tool (or 6mm drill bit) into the access hole in the cam covers on the left side of the bike:
(http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff509/wankski/20130915_162518_zps777e56ff.jpg) (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/wankski/media/20130915_162518_zps777e56ff.jpg.html)
note general orientation of pullies
(http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff509/wankski/20130915_162539_zps1e0db387.jpg) (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/wankski/media/20130915_162539_zps1e0db387.jpg.html)
(http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff509/wankski/20130915_162546_zpsb8a055e6.jpg) (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/wankski/media/20130915_162546_zpsb8a055e6.jpg.html)
install new belts after slackening the pulley bolts so that the pullies float
(http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff509/wankski/20130915_171745_zpscf9102f7.jpg) (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/wankski/media/20130915_171745_zpscf9102f7.jpg.html)
tension them up to 140hz for both belts using a program... i am using JP's 'curroies' - it was very easy to use and i pretty much hit 137ish on the first go... the 5mm allen key was a very tight fit between the belt and the fixed pulley. no way a 6mm would fit.
this diagram shows where to pluck the belts to get the desired tension:
(http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff509/wankski/M696_09_N_4B9_0061145_zps83c3baa6.jpg) (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/wankski/media/M696_09_N_4B9_0061145_zps83c3baa6.jpg.html)
program i used:
(http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff509/wankski/20130915_165839_zps5b36fa8d.jpg) (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/wankski/media/20130915_165839_zps5b36fa8d.jpg.html)
move to front cyl and repeat.
(http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff509/wankski/20130915_170558_zpsc5fee2f0.jpg) (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/wankski/media/20130915_170558_zpsc5fee2f0.jpg.html)
and she's pretty much done!
the next post explains floating the cam sprockets.
so some may say.. why bother floating the cam sprockets?
this is the design.. as you can see the flange is slotted while the pulley carrier itself is keyed to the cam.. this allows the pulley to move around 1cm when loosened independently of the cam...
(http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff509/wankski/M696_09_N_4B9_0061116_zps06d55028.jpg) (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/wankski/media/M696_09_N_4B9_0061116_zps06d55028.jpg.html)
so while the cam is locked you float the pulley and when you tension the belt, the pulley is free to move and equalise the tension of the belt... this is pretty important i think as on my old belts, the side with the fixed bearing was noticeably looser than the side with the belt tensioner... when i ramped the new belts up to ~140hz, both sides of the belt were far more equally tensioned... once set, lock down the tensioners (~26Nm) and then lock down the pulley bolts (~10Nm). the factory manual did not specify to use any kind of loctite on these bolts, but for extra insurance i used loctite 222.... timing is rather important i would think...
now you're pretty much done! belts are nice and equally tensioned!! remember to turn the engine a few revolutions (without spark plugs inserted) to check nothing is amiss... you will notice that the factory pulley marks line up more or less where they were, but now you have nice new, properly tensioned belts (again, on my old belts, the vertical cyl was a tad looser than the horizontal)
a video below shows how when the 3 cam sprocket bolts are loosened the pulley is free to move while the belt is being tensioned despite the cam being locked: (click on the img below, it will open in photobucket)
(http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff509/wankski/th_20130915_165401_zps7304238e.jpg) (http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff509/wankski/20130915_165401_zps7304238e.mp4)
i must say the modern method of locking the cams and floating the pullies is preferable imho... there would otherwise be no way to equalise the tension in the belt... i'm sure it must have work fine in the older monsters, but this one is more technically correct (i also have an Italian v6 car, and the same method applies re: floating cam sprockets while tensioning the belt)
so i got to the valve checking, but stopped that for another day... my fuel tank is full and i simply did not disconnect it and moved it aside on the frame for access... to get at the covers for the valve checking you will need to remove it really, together with the airbox... what a pain... [roll]
so i'll make another guide for that if requested... i will also be doing a guide on 'reverse flush bleeding' which i prefer on motos and bikes...
if anything is unclear, gimme a yell, and i'll try to clarify.
are you locking the cams, but not the crank?
Quote from: brad black on September 15, 2013, 05:55:18 AM
are you locking the cams, but not the crank?
That's what I got...
Quoteturn the engine until the crank pulley mark lines up with the mark in the case, use a large screwdriver to make sure you're spot on... once there the motor won't easily turn, no need for the factory crank locking tool (spendy $$$
Quote from: brad black on September 15, 2013, 05:55:18 AM
are you locking the cams, but not the crank?
yep.. crank didn't move at all.. throw it into gear... (bike was on the sidestand), double check alignment... good to go. remember that while the cams are locked the cam sprockets are free to pivot side to side at least a cm...
Is the current modern monster belt tension spec 140Hz for new belts?
For some of the previous gens it was revised downward to 110Hz to prolong tensioner life per tech bulletins.
BK
yep, 140hz.... taken from the factory workshop manual... (using OE belts - which again, have been revised.... originals were 73740241A and the new ones are 73740242A...) - don't know the reason for that...
I believe that is a typo, it should be 110 Hz for the vertical and horizontal belts:
http://www.ducati-upnorth.com/forum/printthread.php?s=1a8e8b176b049cf708e73c10c88c7e5f&t=10144&pp=20&page=1 (http://www.ducati-upnorth.com/forum/printthread.php?s=1a8e8b176b049cf708e73c10c88c7e5f&t=10144&pp=20&page=1)
Hello,
sorry, just saw the last post now... it's not a typo. I'm in AUS, and the factory manual is pretty clear. That and JP's belt tensioning program confirms the tension you're trying to hit depending on model.
The difference is, ducati NA, posted their own advisory. I guess this is to reduce warranty claims on toasted cam pulley bearings due to the higher tension.
But the Ducati NA advisory is an internal paper-pusher measure to suit Ducati NA. This did not come from Ducati S.P.A (italy).
Having said all that, and having done the job a few times now (it all came off again for the valve job!) i'd concur with their conclusion. The amount of wrap on the 2v belt is very high, and anything around 100hz or more would be completely fine IMHO. In fact, i'd ditch freq, all together and got the '5mm allen wrench method' myself. doing that yielded 105hz consistently for me. That's where mine are now, no sweat.
the 2010 796 manual, for instance, has 145/160 for new belts and 100 for used belts being adjusted, which you only do if they're less than 70.
we found the 2006 onward ds motors, with the narrower lh cam journal, were much more likely to make noise than the early ones due to over tight belts. it's a really nasty bearing noise when they get hot, and the fix is just to back the belts off until it goes away.
[clap]
Great first posts, and I would move this to the tutorial section, fits better in there.
Changing the cam timing to equalize tension on the belts is not a good idea.
Quote from: brad black on March 10, 2014, 04:49:34 AM
the 2010 796 manual, for instance, has 145/160 for new belts and 100 for used belts being adjusted, which you only do if they're less than 70.
we found the 2006 onward ds motors, with the narrower lh cam journal, were much more likely to make noise than the early ones due to over tight belts. it's a really nasty bearing noise when they get hot, and the fix is just to back the belts off until it goes away.
As far as I know Ducati has revised the spec to 110 across the range foe new belts. Yep, I could be wrong.
One of the exhaust manifold studs seized with the nut on my 696, my local dealership said it would take 2 weeks to order. Looks like Ducati doesn't like to use anti-seize on exhaust parts that get hot!
I found that I didn't need to lock the cams, and I didn't need to spend the money on a crank turning tool. Just remove the spark plugs, shift to 6th gear, and spin the rear wheel.
What I noticed was that the factory manual said to turn the crank until the marks line up, which would put the Horizontal cylinder at TDC for tensioning, and then to turn the engine 270* to get the vertical cylinder at TDC... I noticed this wasn't the case. So I basically just turned the engine until the vertical was at TDC for tensioning. I used the 5mm hex key method and the horizontal belt was 110 Hz, but the vertical belt *feels* a bit looser.
Hope these images clear your inquiry . . . Cam pulleys tightening torque 11Nm
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2896/14031683641_a63eccb32b_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nnW3G2)Vertical belt tightening (https://flic.kr/p/nnW3G2)
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5009/14031659162_df8e0b5112_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nnVVpY)Horizontal belt tightening (https://flic.kr/p/nnVVpY)