[moto]
Went for a ride today on my 08 S2R 1000 and had a great time on some twisty back roads. The bike has 400 miles on it so I kept it under 7,000 RPM. When I get to 600 miles I'll be bringing it to the dealer for the first service. I was planning on having them put on the 14 tooth sprocket along with a peg lowering kit and a gear indicator unit. Now I'm not sure if I need the 14 sprocket or not. Anyone ever put on the 14 and then decide to go back to the 15? Those of you with the 14, would you do it again? Any information will be helpful.
Gramps [wine]
Switched from 15t to 14t, delighted. First mod any new owner should undertake, in my opinion.
Welcome to the DMF - you'll have a great time here [thumbsup]
I have the stock 15 and don't plan on changing it. Yes, it would be quicker from a stand still. I don't need it to be, but that's me and my opinion.
As far as I understand; people who does this mod is very happy with it. It's a cheap mod, so why not try it out?
Which peg lowering kit are you putting on? Can you tell us more about the gear indicator unit - links?
[wine]
BTW: I think this belongs in the "Accessories & Mods" (moderators will move it if they think so)
14 tooth is good for more reasons than just acceleration. i recently installed one because i am always between 5th and 6th gear when commuting to work (65-70 mph). with the 14t i can now just leave it in 6th and the bike sits at a comfortable 4.5k. a side benefit is the bike is also more docile at low speeds (under 25) on city streets around my home.
i say go for it, you won't regret it.
Gramps, I've been told by some Ducati mechanics that although it is more expensive, it is better to change the rear sprocket. The smaller front sprocket puts more stress on the chain by making a smaller diameter to go around and also can cause some problems with the chain guide alignment.
Yes. It has been the best upgrade to my S2R.
Rob
Quote from: SDR Mike on July 07, 2008, 04:16:19 PM
Gramps, I've been told by some Ducati mechanics that although it is more expensive, it is better to change the rear sprocket. The smaller front sprocket puts more stress on the chain by making a smaller diameter to go around and also can cause some problems with the chain guide alignment.
+1 - up two in the rear is the equivilant of down one in the front. I heard this from a Duc tech as well. Most people opt to change the front because it's less expensive and you can do it yourself. On that note, I had the shop change me to a 14th in the front and it's much better around town, IE; no lugging at low speeds. Most people believe it should be geared this way from the factory. Did mine at the 600 mile service and would do it again. [thumbsup]
Quote from: stopintime link=topic=6523.msg105303#msg105303 date=1215468366
Can you tell us more about the gear indicator unit - links?
/quote]
I am curious about this also.
As far as the 14 tooth sprocket goes, after all that I have read and the guys that I have talked to, it is a must for my next mod.
i had a 14t put on before i took delivery of my 06 s2r1k
as stated, this is the way the bike should come from the factory (or 2 up in the rear for that matter i suppose)
The 14 tooth front is a cheap easy mod, & will give you more ummpphhh down low, a little smoother around town. It's a little harder on your chain, which might not last as long (going up 3 teeth in the back is preferable, but more expensive) but it will make your beast much more rideable ;D
Quote from: Duc L'Smart on July 07, 2008, 06:55:49 PM
The 14 tooth front is a cheap easy mod, & will give you more ummpphhh down low, a little smoother around town. It's a little harder on your chain, which might not last as long (going up 3 teeth in the back is preferable, but more expensive) but it will make your beast much more rideable ;D
Have you changed the gearing on your Paul Smart? How is it? I love my Sport Classic, but I have a hard time going slower than about 20 mph smoothly. This is an issue as I live on a military base with some 15 mph zones between me and the front gate.
Put the 14 on now and when it's time to chane the chain and sprockets go back to 15 in front and up 2-3 in the back.
Quote from: MikeZ on July 07, 2008, 07:23:06 PM
Put the 14 on now and when it's time to change the chain and sprockets go back to 15 in front and up 2-3 in the back.
+1 [thumbsup]
Also change to a 520 chain/sprockets when you do it.
Quote from: stopintime on July 07, 2008, 03:06:06 PM
Welcome to the DMF - you'll have a great time here [thumbsup]
I have the stock 15 and don't plan on changing it. Yes, it would be quicker from a stand still. I don't need it to be, but that's me and my opinion.
As far as I understand; people who does this mod is very happy with it. It's a cheap mod, so why not try it out?
Which peg lowering kit are you putting on? Can you tell us more about the gear indicator unit - links?
[wine]
Geartronic Gear indicator from Italy. Found it on E-Bay at Biker Zone Store. Wild Hair Motorcycle Accessiories from Germany.
BTW: I think this belongs in the "Accessories & Mods" (moderators will move it if they think so)
Quote14 tooth sprocket YES or NO
YES [thumbsup]
Do it.
Quote from: SDR Mike on July 07, 2008, 04:16:19 PM
Gramps, I've been told by some Ducati mechanics that although it is more expensive, it is better to change the rear sprocket. The smaller front sprocket puts more stress on the chain by making a smaller diameter to go around
There's some _theoretical_ basis for this opinion, but I always like to point out that back in my vintage of Monster (1999 model), the same year's 748 came standard with a 14t front and 50% more torque than a Monster. Yeah the leverage of a 14t front theoretically puts something like 7% greater force on the chain, but a) the choice of chain/sprocket from the factory isn't anything like that close to critical, and b) the ultimate force on the chain is limited by the rear tire grip anyway. There's absolutely no question in my mind that any halfway decent quality 520 chain will be perfectly fine running round a 14t front sprocket.
Quoteand also can cause some problems with the chain guide alignment.
This is something there were quite a few conflicting reports on TOB about, at least some people with single sided swingarms reported excessive chain guide wear with a 14t front - more prevalently with people who'd raised the rear ride height, but at least a few people claimed to have the problem with stock ride height (and a few other people claimed no problems with 14t fronts and raised rear ride height).
I've been using a 14t front on my '99 M750 for about 100,000miles now (about 4 separate replacement sprockets), and wouldn't got back up to a 15 (at least not without going up to a 45 or 46t rear instead).
big
Just my .02
I didn't do the 14t for more performance/quicker acceleration. I did it for slow speed drivability. 1st gear is pretty tall for around town parking lots and the like. The 14t has me slipping the clutch less...
I've also heard the reason for the 15t, was to make the bike euro noise/emission compliant.
My drivetrain is otherwise stock, and I have had NO chain related issues.
I say DO IT [thumbsup]
Quote from: Gramps on July 07, 2008, 02:53:30 PM
[moto]
Went for a ride today on my 08 S2R 1000 and had a great time on some twisty back roads. The bike has 400 miles on it so I kept it under 7,000 RPM. When I get to 600 miles I'll be bringing it to the dealer for the first service. I was planning on having them put on the 14 tooth sprocket along with a peg lowering kit and a gear indicator unit. Now I'm not sure if I need the 14 sprocket or not. Anyone ever put on the 14 and then decide to go back to the 15? Those of you with the 14, would you do it again? Any information will be helpful.
Gramps [wine]
theres one thing nobody have mentioned i ride a lot of country roads and twisties and i found the 14 made the bike harder to ride hard through tight stuff, allways going through the gears on the 15 you just roll on and of the throttle [thumbsup]
I've got the 14 on my ride and i think it was one of the best mod i've done,great on city rides...no issue regarding having a hard time in the twisties,although i have some wear on the rubber guard in the swing arm.But it doesn't seem to get worse.So i would do it IMHO.No regrets!
Quote from: trenner on July 07, 2008, 03:01:05 PM
Switched from 15t to 14t, delighted. First mod any new owner should undertake, in my opinion.
+1
Quote from: MikeZ on July 07, 2008, 07:23:06 PM
Put the 14 on now and when it's time to chane the chain and sprockets go back to 15 in front and up 2-3 in the back.
this is a good idea, I am doing the same
I'm guessing your fuel economy also suffers by about 1/14 or 1/15? About 10 miles per tank?
-Toby
Quote from: TobyDanger on July 08, 2008, 12:24:19 AM
I'm guessing your fuel economy also suffers by about 1/14 or 1/15? About 10 miles per tank?
Doesn't seem too - remember that although you rev higher in the same gear at the same speed, you'll need less throttle to do so, and you'll also spend some of your time in the next gear up revving slower at the same speed. I use top gear a lot more often on my commute with a 14t front - around town speeds are a little too low for top gear with stock gearing for me...
big
Do it,do it ,do it.
I just shelled out 60 bucks for the sprocket plus mounting and its the best mod for the bike so far.
The 696 has a 15/42 for that reason
The 695 came 15/45 and thats just too long
And yes, the main reason is the Euro 3 norm.
Funny enough its legal to do it and no need for registration of the 14t.
Anyway...the bike feels A LOT lighter and more agile now.
I have a real use for 3rd gear in town now...and I dont care about the 8% less topspeed.
Changing to 14t was first thing I did before I took delivery of my 696!
Highly recommended! ;D
Just want to share another perspective on this setup, I track my monster and one of the tracks I go has a straight away that I usually go a little over 100mph on the 4th gear before brake. So the 15 sprocket worked pretty well for me, I would imaging that I will probably be need to shift to the 5th and shift back to 3r if I have 14 sprocket switched.
NO to a 14. YES to 15 and up 2 in the rear. I changed both sprockets with no problem. Very easy to do. Why waste the $$$ letting someone else do it.
Quote from: MikeZ on July 07, 2008, 07:23:06 PM
Put the 14 on now and when it's time to change the chain and sprockets go back to 15 in front and up 2-3 in the back.
When should the chain be changed? Is at 10,000 miles or at 3 years? How would one know???
Quote from: Obsessed? on July 07, 2008, 07:11:48 PM
Have you changed the gearing on your Paul Smart? How is it? I love my Sport Classic, but I have a hard time going slower than about 20 mph smoothly. This is an issue as I live on a military base with some 15 mph zones between me and the front gate.
I bought it used, but I'm pretty sure it has the stock sprockets. Like most Ducs, it likes to go fast ;D
Quote from: Tommysurfs on July 08, 2008, 06:18:13 AM
YES to 15 and up 2 in the rear. I changed both sprockets with no problem. Very easy to do. Why waste the $$$ letting someone else do it.
Going up in the back requires a longer chain. You can also swap to a 520 sprocket/chain setup, instead of the 525, & save a lot of weight [thumbsup]
[clap]
Thank's to all of you who responded to this post!! I'm going to stick with my original plan and have it installed at the 600 mile check-up. Also will write a report on the gear indicator, and the peg lowering kit after I get them installed. My Can-Am Spyder has the gear indicator built in and I like having it. So decided to get one for the Ducati. Everyone Ride Safe
Gramps [wine]
I have a M900 - I definitely suggest having a 14T front.
I also have a 520 chain, when it is time to replace yours, that is what you want.
I kind of think the gear indicator would be neat, but I have never 'needed one', I judge relative to the RPM I'm at now, how many gears to go down for an upcoming turn. I don't think "This is a 2nd gear turn", I think, two gears down from where I'm at will be right for this one. As I get faster, or choose to maybe sloth through a turn, the gear # down would change, so that's my view on that.
And get the comfort right. Many people enjoy raising their bars about an inch also, which requires little to nothing other than the bar risers to do. That's my take on your footpeg kit.
absolutely, unless you ride WOT frequently. Do it asap for chain/sprocket wear's sake
Quote from: Duc L'Smart on July 08, 2008, 06:48:39 AM
Going up in the back requires a longer chain. You can also swap to a 520 sprocket/chain setup, instead of the 525, & save a lot of weight [thumbsup]
If you switch to a 520 chain, be sure you install a case saver. It's not pretty when the chain snaps.
And the chain saver is dirt cheap - got mine at CA-Cycleworks
Why even ask... Just get er done. If you dont like it your only out a few bucks. But you wont regret it ;D
Gramps - just a word on the MFW Vario pegs:
There has been some confusion on which part # to use for the adapter. Even the manufacturer website still has it wrong. I spoke to them on the phone half a year ago, they promised to correct it, but haven't. The US distributor, EuroTechMotorsports is still somewhat unclear, but basically right. Don't remember if WHA is correct, but the right adapter is 051 03 03 00. Part # 051 03 01 30 will not fit.
Good luck on the sprocket project. It will be interesting to hear what you think.
Do it just got my back from having both sprockets and chain replaced. The thing is definitely a little more peppy in the lower gears. This after riding around with the factory front for 18,000 miles. The thing is awesome whether its going down in the front or up in the rear do it its a world of difference you do loose some top end but does not matter still managed to have fun. Besides after 120 whats left 130 and 140. But I did notice the hypomotard s model with the termi under pipes and man if I had the money that would be in my garage in a heart beat.
lata,
-panthro
Quotetheres one thing nobody have mentioned i ride a lot of country roads and twisties and i found the 14 made the bike harder to ride hard through tight stuff, allways going through the gears on the 15 you just roll on and of the throttle
+1. I really think your results with 14T depend on the number of teeth in the rear. Different bikes come with different numbers of teeth in the rear. I tried the 14T sprocket in my S2R800 and I HATED it. I think slipping the clutch and learning how to manipulate bike is half the fun. When I put on my 14T it reminded me of my 250; just had to shift too often. Good luck.
Quote from: bigiain on July 08, 2008, 12:49:59 AM
Doesn't seem too - remember that although you rev higher in the same gear at the same speed, you'll need less throttle to do so, and you'll also spend some of your time in the next gear up revving slower at the same speed.
I don't know engines like I know electrons, and I'll give you that the mpg wouldn't change much (~7%) or less with changes in riding style associated with a 14T sprocket, but revving higher in the same gear at the same speed with the same drag, you're going to have to explain a lot better for me to believe that you don't need more throttle/gas to move the engine faster...
-TobyDanger
I thought there'd be a poll...
Yes
No...
Boobies!
Actually - really YES absolutely. I'd say for average non-racer and just about any motorsport, having more low-end fun = greater enjoyment than the benefit of keeping high-end max speeds.
Quote from: TobyDanger on July 10, 2008, 06:12:12 PM
I don't know engines like I know electrons, and I'll give you that the mpg wouldn't change much (~7%) or less with changes in riding style associated with a 14T sprocket, but revving higher in the same gear at the same speed with the same drag, you're going to have to explain a lot better for me to believe that you don't need more throttle/gas to move the engine faster...
You're _close_ to understanding (well, at least to what _I_ think is the correct understanding).
There's two separate bits of drag to think about - the drag inside the engine, which as you point out _does_ go up with engine speed, and the aerodynamic drag of the bike/rider, which under the "at the same speed" assumption will _not_ increase. My theory says the increase in fuel consumption will be some function of a 7% increase in the internal engine drag only, and that the aerodynamic drag is a _much_ more significant contributor to total drag, so the overall increase in fuel use will be very small. Assuming 80% of the total drag is aerodynamic (which I think is close to a worst case assumption), that implies a 7% increase[1] in the remaining 20% of the total drag, or around a 1.5% total increase - which in my opinion is far enough down in the measurement noise of fuel consumption to ignore. And that assumes none of my proposed fuel _savings_ from sometimes running a higher gear with a lower engine speed that with stock gearing, which would reduce that figure further.
big
[1] Note, oversimplification in use here - it's more likely that the drag goes up with some increasing function of rpm, probably delta rpm squared since a lot of it will be aerodynamic drag of the crank, rods, and pistons inside the motor - that only changes my numbers a little tho due to the smallness of 7%... My guestimate would still come in under 3% with that taken into account...
How much does the 520 chain really gain you? I ask because it's time for me to replace my set-up and I wanted to go up three on the back. I was comtemplating the 520 but I really need something pretty rugged. It would have to offer significant improvement to be worth it for me. How much more fragile are they?
If you aren't rocking an S4RS, than a 520 is more than enough chain. The 695 will give a 520 no problems.
Its fairly lighter than a 525, and is what is on my M900.
I just switched my drive system on my m900 from 14/43 to 15/41(15/38 stock). The +7 was definitely fun 8), and I felt very hooligan, but shifts came very fast. I did not like the fact that I lost 10mph top end though. The engine had more to give, but gearing would not allow it. I went to +3, which, IMO is the optimal gearing for monsters.
I chose a Sidewinder titanium final drive system from Krause Racing. Their titanium II sprockets are guaranteed for LIFE! Some guys have been running the same sprockets for 25yrs with no problems......offroad :o
Guys, this site is worth your time, and a very interesting read. I highly recommend Krause Racing.....quality products, and EXCELLENT customer service! I called late on Fri., and one of the head gearing engineers called me back and gave me his personal cell # with instructions to call anytime over the weekend. Only downside was 4 weeks from order to receipt, but this is due to the fact that every order is treated as custom and designed/cut to your gearing choice.
I chose the highest tensile strength chain possible(16,000lbs). Overkill for an 72hp monster?......absolutely, but it will require less adjustment over its 30k mi lifespan. Check the link below and you will see there is no real difference in tensile strength between quality 520 and 525 pitch chains. Its the materials they are made of that count!
http://sidewindersprockets.com/v-series_smart_chain.html
As far as gearing is concerned, it is important to consider that some gearing combinations will wear faster and unevenly. Even gearing, such as 14/42 will accelerate wear on your drive system because the sprocket teeth and chain links are more likely to contact at the same points more often. Odd combinations(15/41) will contact at the same points less often resulting in more uniform wear and a longer lasting drive system.
This site will help you choose the right gear ratio for your application: http://www.gearingcommander.com/
Good luck, I will post pics of the install soon to show why you should not compromise when choosing your final drive system.
HK
A 520 chain will hold up to anything but the most tricked out bikes.
ca-cyclesworks.com is great to deal w/ too.
I switched to a 14T front and there was a very noticeable increase in bottom end umph ,and quickness in the lower gears of my S4Rs. I say try it. if you don't like it it is an easy switch to have done.
Another report got my 14 t thursday after riding 2 two years with the stock front sprocket. Let me tell you again it is worth its weight in [bacon]. Was in traffic commuting and its awesome no switching gears trying to find the sweet spot while cruising in traffic. I love it and would recommend it to anyone like double said try if you like keep if not switch back.
lata,
-panthro
Yes, both my ex S4Rs and my current 749 have all had 14T front sprocket. The 749 now has a matching 40T rear sprocket.
I've been on the 14t for about 3 weeks now and tomorrow I will go back to the 15t. I was playing around with the gearing commander and I could see how the 14/42 compared to stock 15/42 really lowered the speed even at lower gears for a given RPM. The bike is much more fun with the 15/42 vs the 14/42, but the drawback is that the bike lags (stutters) when you have to maintain a low rpm at lower gears for a while, like in the parking lot. I will have to try going up one on the back and see if that will make a good compromise. The gearing commander is a really useful tool! [thumbsup]
I took delivery of my S2R800 new with the3 sprocket mod done by the dealer. I've never driven it any other way. That being said, I have heard that rather than go 3 up in the rear, that you should do the front AND the rear. I think it was one down front two up rear? Has anyone heard this??
Can only comment on my own experience: S2R 800 Yes $38 plus postage best mod ever [bacon] [bacon] [bacon]
I say it depends.
I ride mostly on two lane twisty mountain roads where I rarely reach 70 MPH, so I like the 14.
When I ride my bike to work I'm one a stretch of Rt. 287 where cars and trucks are going 80 MPH and I feel like I'm reving the piss out of the bike in order to go 80 MPH. I don't see the need to rev an engine that has more than enough torque to maintain that speed at a lower RPM.
So around the city and in the twisties...I think the 14 is the way to go. If I were to ride on the highway more, I'd stick with the 15 or even think about a 16.
Quote from: jbrizz on July 18, 2008, 07:59:54 AM
I say it depends.
I ride mostly on two lane twisty mountain roads where I rarely reach 70 MPH, so I like the 14.
When I ride my bike to work I'm one a stretch of Rt. 287 where cars and trucks are going 80 MPH and I feel like I'm reving the piss out of the bike in order to go 80 MPH. I don't see the need to rev an engine that has more than enough torque to maintain that speed at a lower RPM.
So around the city and in the twisties...I think the 14 is the way to go. If I were to ride on the highway more, I'd stick with the 15 or even think about a 16.
That is why going up 1 in the back should be a happy compromise. You won't loose much speed for a given rpm compared to having a 14t, while you still fix some lugging at lower RPMs. I came up with this theory after playing around with the gearing commander. You can see how much speed at any RPM for up to 3 different settings. Also, you can compare the changes in different gears. Very useful tool to better understand HOW the different combinations affect your speed. http://www.gearingcommander.com/
Today I went back to the 15t! I just came back from riding and I love it. The bike is FUN to me again! The bike doesn't feel jerky at lower RPMs like I remember. I think it is a matter of just getting used to rev it a little bit or feather the clutch a bit too when you are going really slow. I have all the juice at the twist again! Bottom line, I AM HAPPIER WITH THE 15T for now...
I tried the 14, hated it and went back to the 15. With the 14, I felt I was always shifting and I didn't like my bike running 500 rpm higher on the highway.
I never understood people saying they had problems pulling away from a stop with the stock gearing?
Quote from: ducatania on July 18, 2008, 04:07:09 PM
I tried the 14, hated it and went back to the 15. With the 14, I felt I was always shifting and I didn't like my bike running 500 rpm higher on the highway.
I never understood people saying they had problems pulling away from a stop with the stock gearing?
I have not tried the 14T so I can only say what I dislike about the stock gearing. At 70mph I am only at 4,000rpm which is right at the bottom range of where the motor seems happy, anything lower or going into a headwind or up a slightr incline and the motor lugs and feels uncomfortable. For that reason I find myself shifting from 6th to 5th a lot to get the motor happier. Also slow speeds or parking lots feel uncomfortable, and I often find myself in that awkward zone between 1st and 2nd.
I probably will not do 14T, but will wait until the chain and sprockets needs to be replaced and then go up 1 or two teeth in the back.
Quote from: SA_S2R on July 19, 2008, 03:09:01 PM
I have not tried the 14T so I can only say what I dislike about the stock gearing. At 70mph I am only at 4,000rpm which is right at the bottom range of where the motor seems happy, anything lower or going into a headwind or up a slightr incline and the motor lugs and feels uncomfortable. For that reason I find myself shifting from 6th to 5th a lot to get the motor happier. Also slow speeds or parking lots feel uncomfortable, and I often find myself in that awkward zone between 1st and 2nd.
So in fifth your RPMs @70mph are 4,500-4,700? Stay in fifth or go faster 8) If you are in traffic/slow speed maneuvers more often the 14t may be the correct choice. I personally prefer higher speed/lower rpms , and +3 is optimal for my riding style.
Quote from: BastrdHK on July 20, 2008, 08:41:38 AM
So in fifth your RPMs @70mph are 4,500-4,700? Stay in fifth or go faster 8) If you are in traffic/slow speed maneuvers more often the 14t may be the correct choice. I personally prefer higher speed/lower rpms , and +3 is optimal for my riding style.
Plus 3 on the back is the same as 1 down in the front. Check the gearingcommander.com and see it yourself [thumbsup]
You're right Julianista, -1 front is like +2.5 rear. I was coming off of +5 in the rear, and was happy to get my speed back. 8) Sorry about the confusion.
The main reason you'd go -1 on the front is because it's inexpensive and +3 on the rear because it's less tension on the chain? Am I summarizing the posts correctly?
TIA
Pretty much, although the excessive tension theory is some what of a wives tale b/c several Ducati superbikes came stock with 14t sprockets. A quality chain will easily handle the tighter radius.
Now that I've tried both 14 and the 15 front sprockets.. I wonder why some say that Ducati only installs the 15 to pass emissions and that the bike was meant to have a 14t... to me the bike feels much better with the 15t and people should be saying it was meant for the 15t instead! [drink]
Quote from: julianista on July 20, 2008, 08:25:49 PM
Now that I've tried both 14 and the 15 front sprockets.. I wonder why some say that Ducati only installs the 15 to pass emissions and that the bike was meant to have a 14t... to me the bike feels much better with the 15t and people should be saying it was meant for the 15t instead! [drink]
Heh - keep in mind your S4R produces about twice the power (and probably torque) compared to my little 750. It doesn't surprise me too much that the benefits some of us with lower powered bikes get aren't necessarily transferable to you guys with the big 4 valvers :-)
big
I'm switching back to a 15T, losing the top end speed isn't worth the little bit of pep I get going thru the city. I plan on just staying on the throttle more. imho [moto]
Here is a good post from Chris Kelly from TOB.
No, actually, it's still a myth. And it refuses to die because people listen to their own "common sense" rather than actually perform testing. I mean, it's so much easier to be right if there is no objectivity and you never check the possibility you're wrong, yeah? I'm not putting down those who in their own mind have an opinion and belief and choose to use a 15t sprocket as their personal preference. I have issue with those who have to evangelize bullshit and force their opinions down the throats of others. No, actually, I don't have issue with that either. I have issue with it when folks who haven't yet decided for themselves become believers of the True Cult of Fifteen Toothed Sprockets Only or Die!
This myth started on the internet, where people commonly ignore those whose professions are in the field being discussed. Where people with, OMG, actual experience have seen the light -- and it wasn't from the god created for the True Cult of Fifteen Toothed Sprockets Only or Die! religion.
Ok, so I'm a bit cheeky ... I'm getting over the flu from hell and I come back to the Intarwebs to the fresh smell of BS. You all caught me at my weakest.
Maybe rather than do actual work, I'll need to set up a test bed with an electric motor turning two sets of sprockets with a chain. 15/42 on one and 14/39 on the other. Part of it will be to calculate the speed and miles travelled based on the rpm of the system.
Since everyone but me seem to have more scientific research with motorcycle drive chains and are claiming my field experience is not valid, please provide me with the specifications for my test to confirm your findings. Do we want continuous 100 mph for 10,000 miles? 15,000 miles? Which chains for the test? How long should the chain be? How should we handle the theoretical concept of a load? I mean, if the 14 vs 15 tooth count is such the deciding factor, surely it won't matter what the load is, how long the chain is, or other sprocket size, as the contribution of sprocket size is the greatest factor, yes?
Yeah, there's a hint of sarcasm there. Deal. I've got an engineering degree. So a 4 year collidge taught me how to ask more questions. Guess what, I was also trained by the military for 2+ years about troubleshooting theory and practices. Having worked both as a technician and as an engineer, I can appreciate the value of theory (where you think "wow, that's a huge difference, can't see how that chain can last with a 14t sprocket) ... and I can also appreciate the value of experience (where the lab tech or repair tech thinks about how many times they've seen exactly this and roll their eyes as they evaluate the worth in educating the theorist).
IM-not-very-HO, the best test bed are people who use their motorcycles as daily transportation. About 13 years ago, I was a mechanic helping the lowest tier of street riders keep their bikes running. The *first* time they came in with a badly worn chain or sprockets was also the LAST time. Once we helped them understand the difference an o-ring chain and a little care makes, they would double or triple the miles on their chains. Not once have I seen a situation where sprocket size contributed a detectable amount of increased wear. Not once have I seen a situation where re-using a steel sprocket which was not visibly worn contributed ANY increased wear to the system.
I agree with the industrial application mentioned above. When it comes to the equipment that I depend upon for my income ... or depend upon for my liability or worker's comp insurance, yes, please use a maintenance program with a very aggressive schedule. How much does a chain or sprocket cost versus the entire system? How many hours is the equipment run before replacement? What is the comparable distance and speed travelled by industrial use applications that are run 8 to 24 hours a day? 15,000 miles on a motorcycle compares to 250 to 500 hours of actual use. 250 hours assumes a 60mph average speed, so it would make sense to double it. Oh crap, there's common sense... now I'm trying to join the Cult!!
Since I'm treated like the young punk I formerly was, I'll reintroduce my experience: I've been riding and working on my own bikes since 1985. I've worked as a mechanic and as retail in the moto industry since 1993. I have ridden on motorcycles at least 200,000 miles, have at least 6000 miles on the race track, won races, broken down in the middle of nowhere, etc etc. I'm not a know it all and never think I will be, but I try very hard to learn as much as I can. I believe that I have now graduated from "young punk" to just "punk". Once I can graduate past "punk" and make the first step towards "wise", hopefully I'll not care so much about the efforts people make to deceive others in my industry.
The foundation of ducatitech.com and ca-cycleworks.com is the principle of trying to save others from repeating my stupid mistakes and OJT missteps by sharing information that would otherwise be considered insider info. A local motorcycle shop was the motivation for starting out my quest to share knowledge -- I asked a couple of simple questions about my then new-to-me 92 Ducati 900ss. I had worked as a wrench for 3 years and knew every brand had it's unique issues. When they laughed me out of there, I was determined to learn as much as I could and share with as many as I could. Surprisingly similar in spirit to the open source software movement.
To recap, if it makes YOU feel better to replace your sprockets more often than needed or to not change your gearing, that is awesome. I like to know people are happy with their bikes. But please knock off the propaganda, ok? It's ok that someone loves their bike and believes their bike is special. But the bike is the same steel, aluminum, plastic, and rubber as every other motorcycle on the market -- same laws of physics apply.
And in case you didn't guess, I am touched to the core of my being when people make claims 14t sprockets increase chain wear.
Quote from: jbrizz on July 18, 2008, 07:59:54 AM
I say it depends ... I feel like I'm reving the piss out of the bike in order to go 80 MPH. I don't see the need to rev an engine that has more than enough torque to maintain that speed at a lower RPM.
So around the city and in the twisties...I think the 14 is the way to go. If I were to ride on the highway more, I'd stick with the 15 or even think about a 16.
depends on the monster. my S4Rs, for example, is only ~5K RPM doing 80mph on the freeway. this bike is dyno-tuned and so it runs smooth even if i let it dip to low RPMs but in top gear the engine doesn't feel zippy and fat unless i am doing 90+
i've done every mod you could reasonably do to this bike so i guess this is the final one. i held off bc i didn't like this mod on a previous bike (yamaha 600 i had back in the 90's) and so i have stuck with the stock gearing for the past 2 years. going tomorrow for some new rubber (BT16s) and having the 14 tooth done at last. i'll report my findings [popcorn]
From my experience, if you put the best quality chain on the market on your bike, a DID ZVM, it doesn't matter what your gearing is. It will last a long time. I've had shitty experiences with both Tsubaki and RK, in my opinion, DID is the best there is. The last bike I owned, I put the DID ZVM on, it required 1 adjustment before 1000 miles, and didn't require another adjustment for the next 20K, when I sold the bike. That is with a steel rear sprocket. Gearing? Put whatever you want on there. If you use a less than quality chain, the smaller diameter might make a difference.
Yes! period, you won't regret it ;D
It is the best (and cheapest) performance mod out there!
I stayed with the 15t up front, and +1 in the rear.
I don't like the extra chain rub noise some bikes make with the 14t up front.
Quote from: thruxton on July 16, 2009, 02:20:22 PM
... my findings [popcorn]
geez. why did i wait so long?!?!
as i rode away from the shop this morning i could not hardly tell it had been done. while i was expecting "whoa," it is instead, very subtle.
so it was a long 1.5 hour ride home and i got to know the new gearing well. @ 80mph the tach is about the same @ 5100. the feeling as you twist the wrist, though, is one of immediacy. it's a bit hard to explain but with stock gearing @ 80mph in 6th gear, there was a sort of slack that needed to be taken up before the zoom zoom. no longer. twist the wrist now and it's on!
came upon some slow traffic with lane splitting in 1st. with this i felt a sense of urgency to the bike. it rode easy and smooth but would seem to come up quickly from nothing to 30mph and you want to up shift.
so, overall subtle but perfect. all pro, no con. for those with a S4Rs, it's an easy recommendation. [thumbsup]
I have a 14 T on my S4Rs which also has a full Termi System , DP ECU and Open Airbox.
The bike is so quick to spin up the rpms.
I am sold on the initial inexpensive mod.
Dolph :)
I'm wondering if I should do this myself with a new 696. My first bike and I'm a new rider and I live and commute in NYC everyday. In traffic and in gears 1, 2 and 3, bike feels jumpy on and off the throttle. I don't know if this is more that I'm a beginner and my shifting can be better or the performance of the bike. Guy at the dealer mentioned possibly doing the 520 chain/14 T modification but am reading both pros and cons on this thread. Wondering about the performance from those that did it on a 696.
JasonV + possibly others:
It's "impossible" to make a Ducati smooth, our bikes are built to perform under pressure - heavy throttle, high rpm, quick shift a.s.o. That doesn't mean we can't ride smoothly, it just means we don't get a whole lot of help from our bikes.
I know my bike quite well, but in city traffic I constantly feather the clutch and I'm very precise on the throttle.
What really helped me a lot was to tighten the throttle wire to almost no freeplay (not so much it restricts the throttle grip tube, which must have it's built in freeplay)
IMO, the 14t helps a little, but it does not transform Ducatis into something they're not. Which is fine really [moto]
Thanks stopintime. Still feeling it out and just was wondering what is normal and what is not. I understand all your points and will take the advice into advisement.
I switched mine today to the 14 tooth, I noted better 2ND gear corners, got the front up easier.
All In all, I would recommend it!!
R