Ducati Monster Forum

So on my track day last week, I was coming into turn 3, a left-handed U, on Eagles Canyon Raceway http://www.parkplacemotorsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/eagel_canyon_raceway.jpg (http://www.parkplacemotorsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/eagel_canyon_raceway.jpg). I wasn't on the brake at all, doing probably about 35-40 mph, and pretty much on-line. Suddenly I hear the *errrk* of my rear tire sliding or grabbing the road and my bike jerks violently. I managed to keep the rubber on the road and gently went off of the track to collect myself before pitting out. I'm unsure about what happened, and I was hoping I could get some general information about why this occurs. Next track day I'll ask the RideSmart guys but it's been bugging me.

I'm on a stock M696 with street tires at 28psi rear 30psi front, although my bike was cooling off when I measured. It was the second session of the day so the track was almost hot but certainly medium warm. I'm a very new rider so I think body position was a big factor. It seems like sometimes I don't get it right and I'm leaning heavily on the handlebars trying to keep myself on the bike. My head is lowered to the left and side and I've got one cheek off of the seat, but sometimes I'm gripping the bars very tightly because my legs aren't in a good position to hold me up. I've got the balls of my feet on the pegs and my calves extended. My left knee is out but my right knee is tucked into the tank. Is this a problem? I've looked at pictures but it seems that there are many different styles so I'm not sure if this is a very important factor or not.

Anyway, sorry for the long post. I do have a video posted but it's practically useless because I'm still experimenting with the angle of my GoPro.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6pw_2BiYl4

Accident occurs at 3:48.

Obviously I don't expect a silver bullet answer but any suggestions appreciated.

I'm not experienced enough to give you advice, but good damn save!  [thumbsup]

Thanks man, yours and a similar comment from the control rider who happened to be right behind me does scrub off a bit of the shame of messing it up so badly in the first place :).

Impossible to tell form the video or your description...but I can say you weren't going anywhere near fast enough for pretty much any tire to just let go.

Did you downshift right there, and dump the clutch? That's kinda what it looked like.

It's normal to be curious about what happened, but I'm pretty sure this is a random accidental rider's mistake.

Not big enough to worry too much about.

If it keeps happening - you'll need to explore, but then you'll know more about what is what.

More track days - even bigger smile [thumbsup]

I have no idea what went wrong unless Triple J nailed it, but great save and off road riding!

Yeah it was a shot in the dark. I wasn't on the clutch at all. I was out practicing today and noticed that when I use my core to lean I'm I *really* feel it in my core. I think I'll work on that and hopefully it won't happen again :).

Thanks guys!

I'm unable to view the video, but is it possible you dragged a peg?

It is possible. I'd heard something scraping on a couple of turns before but I'm never sure if it's my sidestand or the peg. I did not hear it on this turn but that doesn't mean it's impossible. Again, I think if this is the case then improving my body position would prevent it?

Photos or video of yourself can be a great teaching tool.  The lens doesn't lie and doesn't think. 

A while back I started a thread of photos,
 
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=58317.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=58317.0)

Might be worth a look.  And if you've got photos, folks might have some advice

Thanks! Next pics I get I'll send up :).

You could even recruit a buddy to follow you through some of the local twisties with a video cam - even at sensibly, but sporting street pace one can see some 'bad' habits. Might be illuminating.

One thing I see fairly often, and will admit to doing it some myself (workiong on it!) is getting off the saddle, but not committing the upper body as much.  If one pulls their upper body back to the center of the bike, or even outside it brings all the lean back to the bike that you're trying to take off it by hanging off the inside.

Now pushing the bike down is a technique and has it uses (watch some supermoto videos) but a fast sweeper... not so much

Yeah this is exactly what I think was going on, coupled with the fact that surely my knee wasn't in the right place or I would have hit the puck well before losing traction.

 Is 28psi a misprint? That is way low for a tire at operating temp, even if it is cooling off some. You are not on race tires or at race pace, after all.

If you touched your kickstand, you will be able to tell by looking at it. That could have caused your problem. A peg wouldn't. I've drug non-foldable pegs racing without an issue...folding stock ones would be even less of an issue.

Bad upper body position isn't the cause IMO. You can be very fast with bad upper body position...just ask Bayliss, Pegram, Schwantz, Russell, etc. Crossed up used to be the norm. Bad lower body position could have caused the kickstand to hit though if you weren't off the seat at all.

If your kickstand isn't scraped, then I still think it has something to do with your inputs...i.e, dropped the clutch, chopped the throttle, etc. Whatever the case, don't overthink it. Just work on being smooth.

(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s270/pesteaux/20131014_165657_zps9087a3d2.jpg) (http://s154.photobucket.com/user/pesteaux/media/20131014_165657_zps9087a3d2.jpg.html)

A pic of my sidestand. You can see where it's been scraped pretty badly. It's actually bent ever so slightly, which would explain why I might not have heard it before I lost traction.

Edit: God that's embarrassing. I gotta get some pics because I know my knee is out, but it's obviously nowhere near where I think it is :(.

There ya go.  [thumbsup] Side stands are actually easy to scrape, so don't feel bad.

You just have to get your ass off of the seat. When I was learning I would actually feel for the edge of the seat to be at my butt crack. Getting your ass off the seat should be the absolute 1st thing you do before a turn...before braking, downshifting, or anything. Actually...when you exit one turn, put your butt where it needs to be for the next turn. Don't even bother with putting it in the midle of the seat.

Upper body is a bit harder IMO. To help with this I do 2 things -- 1) lead with my head into the turn a split second before I turn, pushing the bike away from me (best way I can describe it); and 2) make sure my outside arm is relaxed and resting on the tank, not sticking up and stiff.

That's pretty much what the control rider said. "Bud, you gotta just...man...you just...you just gotta get off of your ass!" or something to that affect. I think I really need to concentrate on your 2) about your arm. I definitely feel like I'm using the handlebars to brace yourself while I'm positioning my ass instead of my core, and as a result my arms are really stiff and I get shook like I'm part of the suspension. My arms get really tired. Thanks so much for the tips I think what I need to work on next track day is becoming clear!

I've never tracked a bike, but that sounds pretty low.

The stock I believe recommends 36 psi on the rear. Even if you were compensating for heating on the track I wouldn't think you drop it that much. May be that contributed some..

28 in the rear at the track isn't shocking. Of course things vary by bike and tire - but you might be shocked at how low a pressure race rears are run. And it can vary a lot by bike

With Dunlop street rubber, Q2 and now Q3s I've been running 27 in the front and 25 in the rear at the track on my big super moto and I could probably drop the rear a touch without over heating the tires as I've not had hot tear issues. But.. get too soft and the bike gets lazy and heavy feeling, so a compromise needs to be struck

I just picked up a Triuph 675 track bike and the PO logged a bunch of info, including tires and pressures that were in the high 20's running on Super Corse SC1/2s in the advanced groups.

Now, for some tires that may be too low and it was causing the tire to overheat and get greasy - but that's just speculative as we only know 'street tires' and they can vary a lot

Definitely worth checking in to, SpikeC. According to the M696 manual:

Tyres
Front tire pressure:
225 kPa - 32.63 PSI (2.25 bar - 2.29 kg/cm2).
Rear tire pressure:
250 kPa - 30.46 PSI (2.50 bar - 2.55 kg/cm2).

So upon closer inspection 30/28 doesn't seem too aggressive.

Somebody's math is wrong... 2.5 bar = 36.4 PSI

On the S2R, I've noticed low pressure in the rear to affect the handling faster than low in the front. 

But I run mine counter to lots of advice, so my advice is probably worthless.

Upon closer inspection, all of those numbers =~ 36psi except the 30 psi number! WTG Ducati =).

I've always run 30/28 cold in Michelin street tires on the track. It works great, and what you may be forgetting is you are looking to achieve a certain hot pressure. The reason for starting low is to allow the extra temp that will build from aggressive riding to not raise the pressure too much.

I run 22lbs in a Michelin race rear on my 996.

Shocking!

Dunlop NTec race tires are 21 psi HOT for the rear...usually start with about 19.5 psi cold.

Of course it varies slightly per track, but I run my Dunlop NTec Slicks at 31 psi front, 23 psi rear on the warmers and adjust per track and conditions.

'07 R6 race bike 125/80, 200/55.

On my RC52 I run 28/28 on Michelin pp3. Stock tire pressure calls for 36/42. At the end of session in at 32/35.

It actually looks you washed the front. Which would explain it if you are stiff with your upper body. Are those dark spots on the track slick? Support yourself with the core and the tank, open up the inside, more you butt inside, BEND the inside arm and kiss the mirror.