Hi all!
First of all, I'm spanish so sorry for my english (I hope you can understand me).
I've recently bought a 5.5' monster 1000 rear wheel, to fit into my monster 620.
I have modified some internal pieces to be 5 milimetres shorter (references 22 and 25):
(http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/7379/rearwheel.png)
Now, reference marks on both sides of the swingarm are lined up and the sprocket aligned, the chain is correctly tensioned (placing the motorcycle on the side stand), but it "jumps" when I ride the bike, at a particular time, not continuously...
Perhaps the chain is slack, but with the original wheel all was ok...
Any help would be appreciated, thanks!
Your English is fine [thumbsup].
It's not because of linguistic difficulties that I dont understand... You have a wider rear wheel, you centered your new wider rear wheel by making the spacers smaller.... Sounds to me like that should work fine.
Yet the chain jumps? And the chain doesn't appear to be excessively loose?? A sprocket carrier issue maybe ???
No mi entiendo at all....
Quote from: ungeheuer on October 25, 2013, 03:02:57 AM
You have a wider rear wheel, you centered your new wider rear wheel by making the spacers smaller.... Sounds to me like that should work fine.
Yet the chain jumps? And the chain doesn't appear to be excessively loose?? A sprocket carrier issue maybe ???
I think it should work fine too, and therefore I am so intrigued....
The chain appears to be a little stretched (not loose), and I'm thinking about changing it, but... some days ago, with the original wheel, I didn't notice anything ¿?¿?... and it has been revised a few weeks ago in the official workshop (they didn't told me anything)
I think the driving gear has a little clearance (I'm not sure if it is the driving gear or its axle), but it doesn't seem to be the problem (again, with the original wheel, everything was ok...¿?¿?)
The sprocket carrier is the original one, and I've checked if it is correctly aligned with the driving gear... and it's ok. ???
Thank you for your opinions! [thumbsup]
monster_dark,
Darkmonster620 speaks your language perfectly (and mine too - what a smart arse) and is an experienced Ducati mechanic..... who also owns a 620.
Carlos?
Senor Brewer-Incera to the white courtesy telephone please...
What process did you use to shorten the spacers?
Quote from: ducpainter on October 25, 2013, 04:17:41 AM
What process did you use to shorten the spacers?
Indeed, I didn't shorten them, but I ordered two new ones, identical but shorter
Quote from: monster_dark on October 25, 2013, 04:35:10 AM
Indeed, I didn't shorten them, but I ordered two new ones, identical but shorter
Ahhhh...
Sorry, I misunderstood.
My only thought is the new spacers don't hold the sprocket carrier aligned as the wheel rotates.
Is there much side to side play or wiggle in the carrier?
Quote from: ducpainter on October 25, 2013, 04:41:54 AM
Ahhhh...
Sorry, I misunderstood.
My fault, sorry!
Quote from: ducpainter on October 25, 2013, 04:41:54 AM
My only thought is the new spacers don't hold the sprocket carrier aligned as the wheel rotates.
Is there much side to side play or wiggle in the carrier?
Interesting... I'll check that, thank you!
But... the chain "jump" is not regular at all... may have to do with the resonance frequency of the engine vibrations (there it is not "jump" when turning the wheel manually, even turning it fast), plus a stretched chain or the side to side play you mention... your solution could explain everything went well with the old wheel...
monster_dark,
do you have a rear stand? If so, please place bike on it and take a picture from behind and post it.
Now, check that the chain is on a straight line, from the rrar sprocket to the front sprockt; put in neutral and turn wheel by hand; make sure wheel IS centered, use a ruler to measure from wheel lip to ssing arm inside edge, both sides should measufe the same, +/-1mm NO MORE, if not within these specs, center wheel while on stand and then recheck chain tension.
Mas preguntas enviame un pm ;D
Did you get the sprocket carrier with the 5.5" wheel?
They mount the sprocket further outboard so that the chain clears the tire.
This will line up with a front sprocket that's flipped flat side out.
What size tire do you have mounted?
Why did you cut those 2 parts down by 5mm?
The overall width of 4.5" and 5.5" wheel assemblies are the same.
Quote from: Speeddog on October 25, 2013, 08:57:05 AM
Did you get the sprocket carrier with the 5.5" wheel?
They mount the sprocket further outboard so that the chain clears the tire.
This will line up with a front sprocket that's flipped flat side out.
What size tire do you have mounted?
Why did you cut those 2 parts down by 5mm?
The overall width of 4.5" and 5.5" wheel assemblies are the same.
We've also put a 5.5" rim on a 620, exactly as per Speeddogs description, workd perfectly. Same spacers, but correct parts necessary.
Quote from: Speeddog on October 25, 2013, 08:57:05 AM
Did you get the sprocket carrier with the 5.5" wheel?
They mount the sprocket further outboard so that the chain clears the tire.
This will line up with a front sprocket that's flipped flat side out.
What size tire do you have mounted?
Why did you cut those 2 parts down by 5mm?
The overall width of 4.5" and 5.5" wheel assemblies are the same.
No I didn't... [bang]
It is a rim of a Ducati Monster 1000, and I've used the sprocket carrier of the 620... :-\
I've mounted a 170 tire, and it doesn't touch the chain (but it's not too far, maybe with a 180 I would have problems)
I cut those parts because with the originals the rim didn't fit in the swingarm, it was too wide...
I have just found this on the Internet:
Quote
The 5.5 wheel is NOT the same hub, its actually about 3/16" wider on the sprocket side, disc side is the same. So using your 4.5 carrier the chain will still be spaced out 3/16 farther away from the tire.
The outer spacer and bushing that goes into the carrier would need to be changed to the 5.5 shorter ones. The outer one was $5 from Ducati bushing can't be much either.
This may be OK with a 170 tire, I think a 180 its going to be close.
If you can find the 5.5 carrier thats better and you will need to flip the contershaft sprocket to keep the chain straight.
but if you can't you still may be able to get away with the 4.5 carrier with 5.5 spacers.
QuoteFYI: I just did a swap after reading lots of posts on 4.5 vs 5.5 wheels. the info did not add up, nearly all said the hubs are identical but the spacers/carriers were not? Chris noted they should be since the swingarm is the same.
The carrier on the 5.5 IS different and does offset the sprocket outward more but the carrier/ bearing seat are identical to the 4.5, so the spacers should have been too. But we know thay are not. Just didn't make sense so I did some measuring and found the sprocket side of the HUB is wider on the 5.5 wheel than on the 4.5 by about 3/16". That explains why the spacers are shorter on the 5.5 than the 4.5 (by.. you guessed it about 3/16"). Its not that the carrier is wider, it is only wider at the sprocket mount, not in relation to the axle/ spacer/swingarm. The brake side of the hub is identical offset from centerline, the sprocket side centerline to the edge of the carrier mount surface is longer. In short, the chain is offset away from the wheel both by the taller sprocket mount AND by the Hub. Now it all adds up...ahhh
Does that mean that everything should be ok in my case? Or do I need the sprocket carrier hopelessly?
I've just measured two 5.5 wheels, and four 4.5 wheels; the 'hub' part is the same width. :-\
Quote from: Speeddog on October 25, 2013, 12:15:54 PM
I've just measured two 5.5 wheels, and four 4.5 wheels; the 'hub' part is the same width. :-\
So that means that with my sprocket carrier, the chain is closer to the wheel but aligned with the contershaft sprocket (as with the 4.5)... I think I'm getting crazy with this... [bang]
That would have sense; I've been taking measures and I think the sprockets are properly aligned..
On the other hand, that wouldn't explain why I had to shorten the spacers!
Quote from: monster_dark on October 25, 2013, 12:37:07 PM
So that means that with my sprocket carrier, the chain is closer to the wheel but aligned with the contershaft sprocket (as with the 4.5)... I think I'm getting crazy with this... [bang]
I don't remember the details, but in our case it started as a practical joke on a friends 620 (I'll spare you the details...) and we thought it would be a breeze. As it turned out we had to re-start the swap about 3 times since things were not what we expected them to be. Maybe my memory fails (well, make that probably), but I think with a new sprocket carrier and flipping the countershaft sprocket it was OK .....
Now, I've found this experience on the Internet too (it seems to be even more complicated than what we thought...):
QuoteWhen I was looking to do this mod, I found conflicting information. So I dived into it not knowing what to expect... and this is how I made it work.
Bike: 2004 800
Wheel: 2004 ST3
First off, I bout the ST3 wheel, sprocket carrier and the 2 spacers for the sprocket carrier. If you use the ST3 sprocket carrier it will offset your chain from the front sprocket, I thought about flipping over the front sprocket.. dont know if that is possible but I have heard it mentioned, but then my chain wouldnt line up the chain guide on the swingarm... I fitted the bike with the stock sprocket carrier and spacers off the 4.5" wheel, everything lined up and bolted right on, which placed the chain about 2mm from the tire. No big deal because its not going to flex when there is load on the chain, and looking at a few of my friends Japanese bikes, there chain sits about the same. All is well and it looks great!
So when doing this upgrade all you need is the wheel!
Hope this information is useful.
This experience makes me think that the fitment depends on the model and year of the bike, and the model and year of the 5.5 rim... because in my case (2005 monster 620 and monster 1000 rim), the suggested mounting was impossible, the swingarm width didn't let me do it (although this monster models and the rims should have the same measurements.. ??? )
I have some conclusions: [roll]
From all the information I've been reading (many hours reading the Internet), I think there are two kind of 5.5 rims (further than the axles diameters differences).
1) There are rims with wider hub on the sprocket side, shorter spacers, and with the same displacement of the sprocket carrier (always comparing with the 4.5 rim), and
2) there are rims with the same width hub, same spacers, and wider displacement of the sprocket carrier
(in both cases, the sprocket wouldn't be aligned with the contershaft sprocket, and it must be flipped).
In the first option (wich seems to be my case), the 4.5 spacers must be shortened, and the sprocket carrier is valid for both rims.
In the second one, the spacers are equal in both rims, and the sprocket carrier for the 5.5 rim must be the original (from the 5.5 rim), to guarantee the chain clears the tire.
Situations I've found:
First option examples:
The 5.5 rim fits with the original (5.5) spacers
The 5.5 rim with the spacers/sprocket of the 4.5 is too wide
Second option examples:
The 5.5 rim fits with the original sprocket carrier
The 5.5 rim (without any other 5.5 wheel element) fits without any modification (but the chain is too close to the tire, sometimes it even touch it).
With those two options all situations would be explained, and also the confusion/contradictions of all the people who talk about this on the Internet.
Any opinion??
One more thing:
When we flip the contershaft sprocket, it is 10mm "outer" than the original position, and the 5.5 rim only displaces the chain 5mm, so I've solved it with a suplement (I've taken a photo):
(http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/9287/waso.jpg) (http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/9287/waso.jpg/)
Finally, all the problems seem to be due to the chain, it doesn't fit on the sprocket, it's too stretched (it has 16.000km, not too much but enough), so I'll change the transmision components.
I think I didn't notice it before because on the workshop they left it too slack...
Remember, measure chain on side stand at middle between sprockets
glad to know issue is solved
Quote from: Darkmonster620 on October 28, 2013, 08:55:38 AM
Remember, measure chain on side stand at middle between sprockets
glad to know issue is solved
That's right, with the old chain that was impossible, sometimes it was too slack and when turning the wheel it turned to be too tight.. that's the way I saw something was going wrong...
Quote from: monster_dark on October 28, 2013, 09:39:18 AM
That's right, with the old chain that was impossible, sometimes it was too slack and when turning the wheel it turned to be too tight.. that's the way I saw something was going wrong...
Seems to be the way O-ring chains wear out (if that's what you had). I'm probably on my 4th ot 5th O-ring chain now, I+ve changed them all after about 10K miles when they did just the same. I measured one, I think it had elongated 0.6%. Not much, but very visible if you put the old and the new chain beside each other.
I cut a few links open, and some were rusty on the inside, no grease or anything left inside.