I have a 1998 M900. Had to jump start it to get it running but after a short while it dies, like the battery isn't getting charged. 8ish volts on the battery when bike isn't running and 10ish volts when the bike is running. Help jog my memory on diagnosing this. Rectifier was brand new last winter.
A couple of things to do while waiting for Howie to reply. [bow_down]
Check the connections to the regulator you replaced to see if the wires are burned out and hook that poor battery up to a charger you beast! ;D Check the reg itself for signs of over heating and while that battery charges check all your ground connections and check the wires coming out of the alternator case.
If your battery survives give it a pat. Do you have a multimeter and charger?
The regulator is grounded still. The three wires from the regulator to alternator cover appear to be fine. All grounds and battery connections are good. Sitting on a trickle charger as I eat late lunch, but I think charging the battery will just be a bad-aid over the real problem.
Just started it up again. Trickle charger took it to 13ish volts. Started bike and it dropped to 12.95V. While running the multimeter is usually at 12.95, but every 5 seconds or so it flashes to something really low, like 2, 5, or 7 volts.
Since the regulator is fairly new unplug the stator wires and check voltage across the pairs of yellow wires. Single phase alternator will have 2 yellow wires and 3 phase has 3.
IIRC it should be in the 40V AC range.
Well I hope I'm doing this right. My three wires between the alternator and rectifier don't have a plug anymore. That melted when the rectifier went bad last year. So I soldered and shrink wrapped them individually.
Anyway, with bike running I put one lead of multimeter on one of three wires and the other lead on another of the three leads. The voltage read 6ish, 5ish, and 3ish for the three paired combinations I could do. Multimeter was set to AC.
Can I take Alternator cover off and inspect behind it?
The wires have to be disconnected from the regulator.
Imagine the three wires being numbered 1 2 3
Test 1/2, then 1/3, then 2/3
Okay, I'll cut the wires and see what I find.
All three combinations were jumping around 10, 11, 12, and 13 volts.
From my recollection it seems your stator is fried.
Let me search a little and see what I can find.
Does it change with an increase in rpm?
Yes. Holding RPM's steady at roughly 4000 makes the voltage read in the 40's.
I think I was wrong...
Quote from: howie on October 24, 2009, 05:58:39 PM
<snip>
Anyway, to check stator output, follow the three yellow wires from the alternator. The wires will come out of the left side engine cover. You will come to a connector that leads to the regulator. Disconnect the connector. Each yellow wire is one phase of your 3 phase alternator. Connect the voltmeter, positive to each stator wire, negative to ground. You should get 27+10V at 2000 RPM and 78+V at 6000 RPM. If you are getting 14.5 volts +.5 to the battery at 3000RPM there is no need to perform this test. One test that is often overlooked by motorcycle shops is battery drain, or the more correct term, parasitic loss. This is what the bike uses when parked. Ducati has no spec for this. A good "anycar" spec would be less than 6 milliamps. My educated guess would less than 2 for your 696.
Hope this helps
Howie
Hovering at 6000 RPM's only got me about 39V.
Sounds like a bad stator.
There are resistance tests too, but I didn't search for them.
Sounds expensive...
Quote from: ChrisK on November 03, 2013, 05:23:44 PM
Sounds expensive...
Check out Rick's and Electrex...
and ebay of course.
Sounds like your stator is bad, but I am a bit confused. You say when testing voltage to the battery the reading drops to near 0. If the meter is across the battery terminals or from positive on the battery to ground you should be reading no less than battery voltage. Maybe try another meter.
As duckpainter said, check resistance of the stator windings. You want less than 2 0hms and close to each other (any vehicle spec, I've never seen one for Ducati) between any two stator wires and infinity between any stator wire and the engine case.
I'll get my hands on a second meter and see what it looks like.
Can you please explain how to check resistance of the stator wires?
Also, if I truly do have to replace the stator, is their oil behind the alternator cover? And, will I have to replace the alternator cover gasket?
Quote from: ChrisK on November 04, 2013, 06:30:34 AM
I'll get my hands on a second meter and see what it looks like.
Can you please explain how to check resistance of the stator wires?
Here's a good Tutorial on how to diagnose charging systems:
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=60660.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=60660.0)
Quote from: ChrisK on November 04, 2013, 08:36:46 AM
Also, if I truly do have to replace the stator, is their oil behind the alternator cover? And, will I have to replace the alternator cover gasket?
Yes, there's oil behind the cover.
Either drain the oil or lean the bike over a good ways.
If the alternator cover *has* a gasket, you'll very likely need a new one, it'd be a good idea to replace it anyway.
Very likely it *does not* have a gasket, in that case all you need is some sealer (Yamabond, Ducatibond, Threebond, etc.)
I don't know if I know the terminology well enough for DP's tutorial to help answer my question.
I did do the part about testing AC voltage on each of the three wires, and couldn't come close to the 70V that I should see. (I will try a different multimeter tonight just to rule that possibility out).
My question now is, how do I test the resistance? Is it even necessary to test the resistance if the second multimeter also says I'm getting way less than the 70V?
DP's tutorial mentions fitting a DC Rectifier between the alternator wires and the battery to directly charge it. From what I gather, that allows you to test the alternator's ability to charge under load. Now, what kind of DC rectifier is he referring to, and where can I get one?
Thanks for being patient with me, I'm a quick learner with almost zero experience in this stuff.
Quote from: ChrisK on November 04, 2013, 11:18:15 AM
I don't know if I know the terminology well enough for DP's tutorial to help answer my question.
I did do the part about testing AC voltage on each of the three wires, and couldn't come close to the 70V that I should see. (I will try a different multimeter tonight just to rule that possibility out).
My question now is, how do I test the resistance? Is it even necessary to test the resistance if the second multimeter also says I'm getting way less than the 70V?
DP's tutorial mentions fitting a DC Rectifier between the alternator wires and the battery to directly charge it. From what I gather, that allows you to test the alternator's ability to charge under load. Now, what kind of DC rectifier is he referring to, and where can I get one?
Thanks for being patient with me, I'm a quick learner with almost zero experience in this stuff.
That's Brad Black's work. I just copied and pasted it into the tutorials section
3 phase?
Connector
A __
B __
C __
A to B, B to C, A to C
Quote from: howie on November 04, 2013, 01:00:13 PM
3 phase?
Connector
A __
B __
C __
A to B, B to C, A to C
What are you telling me? Or asking me?
That is a (poor) illustration of the connector from the stator to the regulator (the three heavy yellow wires). You are looking for less than 2 ohms between each connector on the stator side. All readings should be close to each other.
In an earlier post I explained that that connector doesn't exist anymore on my bike. It melted, so I hardwired the three wires from alternator to rectifier when I installed the new rectifier.
How do I use the multimeter to test this? I'm unfamiliar with what setting is needed in this particular situation, but if I had to guess, the one with the Ohms symbol?
Am I testing this when the bike is running? I think I would have to be, but I still have to ask.
Also, the same question again, is this test even necessary if I have two multimeters telling me that I'm getting half the AC volts I should be getting?
Ohms, bike off. You need to get to the wires and isolate them from the regulator, which means snip. That is the reason why I was never a fan of the eliminate the connector mod. Ummm...if you are getting good voltage, no the resistance test is not needed. I was under the impression your voltage at the stator was low.
Quote from: howie on November 04, 2013, 01:52:12 PM
Ohms, bike off. You need to get to the wires and isolate them from the regulator, which means snip. That is the reason why I was never a fan of the eliminate the connector mod. Ummm...if you are getting good voltage, no the resistance test is not needed. I was under the impression your voltage at the stator was low.
I'm not getting good voltage? Like half of what that tutorial posted above says I should get. Tutorial says I should see around 70V AC fairly quickly. Sitting at 6000 rpms I was still at 39V. From what I understand, that is way low. Or am I wrong?
I did the resistance test. First pair of wires was hovering right around .9 to 1. Second pair of wires hovered around .8 to .9. Third set of wires hovered around .4 to .5.
Okay now I'm confused and don't know whether I'm using the meter right. I did the voltage test again, holding the RPM's at 6000 and took a picture of two different multimeters. In each, positive probe was connected to one of the alternator wires and the negative probe was grounded. What am I doing wrong or what does this tell me?
(http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz345/chriskuecker/A307E37A-9ED7-4A72-B932-4F7DC6C8AE56-4431-000005A71A704AF5_zps83de73c3.jpg)
(http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz345/chriskuecker/9B709934-075A-4BCD-A7A5-DEA61C36915D-4431-000005A728F0DABB_zps0fc577d9.jpg)
Chris
To measure voltage you need to measure across each phase. Ie AB,AC,BC. (One lead to A and one lead to B, etc not to ground). I have same 3 phase system and measured 55 v across each at moderate revs (no tachometer). Using Electrosport fault diagnosis greater than 50v AC is ok and all 3 should be similar.
Hope this helps.
Okay, testing the voltage the way Beethoven suggested got me up over 50 volts on all three combinations. Where am I at now?
Chris, in my last response I got two things wrong because I did not re-read the whole thread. First, I suggested another meter because what I thought were wonky readings were readings in another thread [bang] Sorry! I also did not remember your stator output results. Re-check following beethoven's method, my (Ducati's) specs. I also found this really good video from Rick's Ricks Motorsport Electrics, Inc. How to test a motorcycle stator (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v2LtHlvcqI#)
Quote from: howie on November 04, 2013, 09:04:19 PM
Chris, in my last response I got two things wrong because I did not re-read the whole thread. First, I suggested another meter because what I thought were wonky readings were readings in another thread [bang] Sorry! I also did not remember your stator output results. Re-check following beethoven's method, my (Ducati's) specs. I also found this really good video from Rick's Ricks Motorsport Electrics, Inc. How to test a motorcycle stator (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v2LtHlvcqI#)
I thought you had something mixed around.
If you read above I did do the test Beethoven described, just as Rick did in the video… and I was able to get over 50V fairly easily across each of the three pairs of wires. However, in another post above, I stated that I think the continuity is too far off between pairs. One pair was about .9, one was about .7, and the third was about .5.
So, does this mean I should just pull the side cover off and inspect the stator itself?
Just thinking more about this. If the continuity is indeed too far off between the pairs of wires, is it possible that, even though the proper voltage is being produced, my stator is frying my R/R?
I just bought and installed a new one a year ago, so is it possible that the same thing has happened all over again, and the root cause is the stator?
I watched this video on checking the rectifier, is it a necessary test at this point Howie? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDx3zgOLShY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDx3zgOLShY)
Does it matter which yellow wires go to which yellow wires? If the plug is removed and the wires are soldered together, if the orientation of the wires is scrambled is that an issue?
The last stator that I had to deal with was in a 1965 Triumph 500, so I am trying to figure out how this works now that I have a Ducati engine in the garage!
No it doesn't matter which, SpikeC.
I have an update/correction. I just did the continuity test over again with two different multimeters and both showed the pairs of wires hovering right around .6. So according to that the stator passes. Also passes according to the AC voltage test.
So now I'm back to square one I think...
Thanks, and you can call me Spike!
My bike has the same charging setup and after seeing all of the issues that people seem to have I want to be as informed as possible should the event ever arise that I need it!
Yeah, even though it sucks when things break, it's fun learning about them and having the piece of mind that you know what you're riding.
After having those two stator tests check out, I'm starting to lean towards maybe my regulator went bad, AGAIN. Waiting to hear advice from the gurus though...
Quote from: ChrisK on November 05, 2013, 11:27:37 AM
Yeah, even though it sucks when things break, it's fun learning about them and having the piece of mind that you know what you're riding.
After having those two stator tests check out, I'm starting to lean towards maybe my regulator went bad, AGAIN. Waiting to hear advice from the gurus though...
Where did you get that 'new' regulator?
Borrowed from a friend, he uses his all the time. At what point am I allowed to trust the meters?
Oh sorry you said regulator, not meter, I'm tired.
I can't remember off the top of my head, but I can dig for it. I know this board helped me diagnose the problem then and I was probably pointed in the right direction based off that.
Hi Chris
Sounds like your alternator is ok. I was like you when I had my charging issues a couple of yrs ago. Once I confirmed the alternator ok I pr oceeded to Rr tests on Electrosport site. Readings quickly determined an issue with RR and was replaced. I also hard wired the connection between alternator and RR to eliminate connector. This is optional and not liked by some but if everything checks out and you have a good RR fitted future problems should be very low risk. If you haven't seen it the website is Electrosport.com and the fault finding guide is in the diagnosis centre. You are at bottom of Page 2 where all 3 have over 50 volts.
http://www.electrosport.com/media/pdf/fault-finding-diagram.pdf (http://www.electrosport.com/media/pdf/fault-finding-diagram.pdf)
Good luck
Al
Thanks for the help, Beethoven! If the RR has gone bad again I'm going to be pretty peeved. Hope I can find where I bought it from...
Just discovered I bought an electrosport regulator from Ca-Cycleworks.
Okay how do I test the RR? I have 7 total wires coming out of mine. There's the 3 yellow wires from the alternator. Then there's 2 red wires and 2 green wires.
Quote from: ChrisK on November 05, 2013, 07:13:07 PM
Okay how do I test the RR? I have 7 total wires coming out of mine. There's the 3 yellow wires from the alternator. Then there's 2 red wires and 2 green wires.
You've already tested it.
You have verified voltage coming from the alternator.
You have checked and cleaned all connections.
Unless you have a broken wire in the harness there is nothing else it can be.
I'm not aware of any resistance test for a R/R. Maybe one of the engineers is.
Here's a video showing Rick from Rick's Electrics testing an R/R:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDx3zgOLShY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDx3zgOLShY)
However, the R/R he's testing only has 5 wires, where mine has 7.
I haven't done ANY tests of the R/R, only the stator. (Other than making sure it's grounded properly and the plug between the R/R and battery is good).
Here's a great step-by-step flow chart from Electrosport on how to diagnose charging problems. I'm going to follow this later this evening and report back.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=gmail&attid=0.1&thid=1422eb499ae455e6&mt=application/pdf&url=https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui%3D2%26ik%3Dac724ae851%26view%3Datt%26th%3D1422eb499ae455e6%26attid%3D0.1%26disp%3Dsafe%26realattid%3Df_hnovdp680%26zw&sig=AHIEtbSFpoWe2GxD67qdficMiiNoJLqBVg
I've posted this link before, but it hasn't garnered much interest, so I'll do it again. The author is probably one of the best motorcycle electrical authorities you will ever find. Most charging system troubleshooting articles all say the same thing. The differences can be the logic of each test sequence, and the level of technical jagon. DEcosse wrote his article for the layman. Take a look and see what you think.
http://www.triumphrat.net/speed-triple-forum/104504-charging-system-diagnostics-rectifier-regulator-upgrade.html (http://www.triumphrat.net/speed-triple-forum/104504-charging-system-diagnostics-rectifier-regulator-upgrade.html)
Quote from: oldndumb on November 06, 2013, 02:26:06 PM
I've posted this link before, but it hasn't garnered much interest, so I'll do it again. The author is probably one of the best motorcycle electrical authorities you will ever find. Most charging system troubleshooting articles all say the same thing. The differences can be the logic of each test sequence, and the level of technical jagon. DEcosse wrote his article for the layman. Take a look and see what you think.
http://www.triumphrat.net/speed-triple-forum/104504-charging-system-diagnostics-rectifier-regulator-upgrade.html (http://www.triumphrat.net/speed-triple-forum/104504-charging-system-diagnostics-rectifier-regulator-upgrade.html)
Thank you Oldndumb, I printed it off for reference. I'll admit, I haven't read any of it because I'm short on time right now, but first impression is that people probably didn't take much interest because 27 pages on a forum can be pretty cumbersome. ;D
I'm sure it's super helpful though, excited to finally get to the bottom of this.
Quote from: ChrisK on November 06, 2013, 02:35:40 PM............., but first impression is that people probably didn't take much interest because 27 pages on a forum can be pretty cumbersome.
:)
Quite true. My eyes glass over and roll into the back of my head when trying to read long posts/threads. I should have mentioned that only the first msg in that thread was relevant.
So I followed the Electrosport flow-chart last night and, from what I diagnosed, the RR went bad. I called Electrosport, and they encouraged me to send the RR to them so they can test and replace if they find the same as me. Apparently they only have a one-year warranty on those things, which was shocking to me. But I am lucky, I paid for the RR from Ca-Cycleworks on November 5, 2012 and my bike wouldn't start on November 3, 2012. If they hound me about not sending it to them until the 7th, I will get quite irritated, but I doubt that will happen. [Dolph]
Hopefully they send a new one pronto, and I can get back on the road for the few days I have left this year.
Maybe contact Ca-cycleworks?
I'm sure they have a mechanism for dealing with warranty on defective items.
Quote from: ducpainter on November 07, 2013, 08:05:41 AM
Maybe contact Ca-cycleworks?
I'm sure they have a mechanism for dealing with warranty on defective items.
I did. Candice told me to deal with Electrosport directly. She gave me their troubleshooting flow-chart and the phone number.
Congrats on hitting the 50K mark, DP!
DP's odometer clicked over! [beer]
Glad you found it Chris.
God he certainly bloody talks a lot, doesn't he. :P
Quote from: suzyj on November 07, 2013, 05:42:33 PM
God he certainly bloody talks a lot, doesn't he. :P
We all do what we're good at...
go do some calculations. :-* ;D
Just received word from Electrosport that they received and tested the RR and it indeed checked out as a dud. Sending a replacement back to me shortly.
Glad to see a company easily uphold their warranty claims. Can't wait to ride again! [Dolph]
[thumbsup]
That kind of service and goodwill is worth heaps.
They certainly ought to be proficient at the return process considering how much practice they have had. :(
Without trashin' what have you heard? Was there a bad batch or something?
Quote from: koko64 on November 12, 2013, 05:22:30 PM
Without trashin' what have you heard? Was there a bad batch or something?
Just a reflection on my personal experience with them on three occasions, and knowing of similar occurrences with friends. Our conclusions were that certain Shindengen R/Rs (MosFet) were more reliable. Others may have had better luck.
There is another R/R alternative but it is more expensive and probably not justified for most bikes. It is a series R/R sold by Compufire. "When there is no demand on the battery the voltage is shunted directly to the ground on the O.E. style. In the Series style the voltage regulator turns the charging system off. Therefore there is no magnetic field between the stator and rotor reducing engine load and heat build up." Their words, not mine.
As far as stators go, we vote for Rick's. Just call and discuss your specifics before ordering. In the stator instance, the convenience of the interweb might not be sufficient.
I've had a Rick's R/R in my monster for years.
It's been completely reliable.
I've got a Ricks RR..,10k miles on it , no issues. 1998 M900. It's my 3rd one. 2nd was off a Grand Canyon so it may not have matched.
Got the new one installed last night and the battery was showing over 14V at idle, happy days! I had the itch to ride so bad I rode to work this morning in the low 30's.
Thanks for all the help and patience guys.
/thread.