Hello everybody,
Im shopping around on ebay, craigslist, and cycletrader and i came across a particular model. Its a 2012 M796 in black with just over 500mi on the odometer, termi exhaust, and fender eliminator. An auto dealership is selling it. I live in New York and this dealership is more than 12 hours away. I contacted the dealer and asked some questions such as how old was the previous rider, if there was anything wrong with the bike, reason they have the bike, and how long they have had the bike for.
Previous owner was in his 40's, married with kids, didnt have time to ride thats why he sold it. The dealer told me that the bike has been with them for approximately 2 weeks and its pretty much brand new. The 'client adviser' is a motorcyclist as well. He rides a harley.
Now, i know that a good thing to do would be to hire a mechanic locally and pay them to visually and physically go to the dealership to inspect the bike and to generate a report to send to me so i can make a more informed decision. I called the local shop and the guy told me that its gonna be about 170 based on their labor rate (84/hr). Theyre about 5 miles away from the dealership.
The dealership showed me a video of them starting up the bike. It looked and sounded phenomenal. But the video was not HD lol. Anyways, id like to know what you guys would do? Is it worth paying a mechanic 170 for a "safety inspection" on a "like new" motorcycle? Plus, how can you tell if the mechanic is making a BS report? OR do i just trust the dealership?
That sounds like a very affordable peace of mind [thumbsup]
Not very likely that they find anything, but anyway.
I think I see the bike on eBay.
Bike looks spanking new, and seller has a very rare 100% positive feedback.
Couple that with eBay buyer's protection, and I'd save the $170 for some gas [Dolph]
Quote from: Chri5 on November 09, 2013, 03:43:41 PM
. I contacted the dealer and asked some questions such as how old was the previous rider, if there was anything wrong with the bike, reason they have the bike, and how long they have had the bike for.
Previous owner was in his 40's, married with kids, didnt have time to ride thats why he sold it.
Does anyone really believe this oft cited excuse? More likely he didn't like the cold blooded nature of the beast or some other real reason.
Quote from: SpikeC on November 09, 2013, 05:32:09 PM
Does anyone really believe this oft cited excuse? More likely he didn't like the cold blooded nature of the beast or some other real reason.
Could have been a mid-life crisis went bad :D
Auto dealership's frequently know little about bikes. The ones I've dealt with that sell bikes are crappy dealers that grabbed a bike because they thought they could make money on it. Usually (again, in my experience) the bikes were picked up via auction and were repo's or something else sketchy. Missing keys, no service history, etc.
Personally, I'd look for something local I could lay eyes and hands on unless it's just impossible to come by. And it never hurts to get a good mechanic to take a look, as long as you know they're a good mechanic.
Quote from: SpikeC on November 09, 2013, 05:32:09 PM
Does anyone really believe this oft cited excuse? More likely he didn't like the cold blooded nature of the beast or some other real reason.
I don't know. That's honestly why I sold my KTM SMT. There wasn't a single thing wrong with the bike...easily the best street bike I've ever owned, and it was set-up perfect. The addition of a new baby meant I had daycare duty every day...coupled with 6-8 race weekends per year, and I really didn't have time to ride it. Seeing a bike just sit in the garage drives me nuts, so I sold it. :-\
Quote from: Triple J on November 09, 2013, 08:21:46 PM
I don't know. That's honestly why I sold my KTM SMT. There wasn't a single thing wrong with the bike...easily the best street bike I've ever owned, and it was set-up perfect. The addition of a new baby meant I had daycare duty every day...coupled with 6-8 race weekends per year, and I really didn't have time to ride it. Seeing a bike just sit in the garage drives me nuts, so I sold it. :-\
Yup. That's why I sold my kids.
OP, it's about whether you're risk averse or not. It sounds pretty much brand new, and if something is horribly wrong, it's likely covered by the warranty (is the warranty still good?). If not, pay the extra $170 if that makes it still worth the deal. You'll likely be fine either way. That said, is it really that difficult to find a bike closer by?
Quote from: SpikeC on November 09, 2013, 05:32:09 PM
Does anyone really believe this oft cited excuse? More likely he didn't like the cold blooded nature of the beast or some other real reason.
That's up there with the; "dent from previous owner" in my book. [laugh]
On topic, I echo HotIce's sentiments. Ebay Buyer protection favors the buyer so much it's ridiculous. You have little to fear. And what would a mobile mechanic do anyway beyond maybe the oil and a visual inspection? It's not as if he/she's going to check the valves. $170 sounds like a waste.
Quote from: Spidey on November 09, 2013, 08:28:47 PM
Yup. That's why I sold my kids.
OP, it's about whether you're risk averse or not. It sounds pretty much brand new, and if something is horribly wrong, it's likely covered by the warranty (is the warranty still good?). If not, pay the extra $170 if that makes it still worth the deal. You'll likely be fine either way. That said, is it really that difficult to find a bike closer by?
Thats definitely a question im going to ask the dealer. Im going to ask if he has both keys, title status, maintenance history, and the VIN number. What else should i establish over the phone? And no, i havent seen any bikes within 100 miles of my location with low mileage and a decent price for a bike that has the primary mods i'd personally do first (termi exhaust, fender eliminator).
What specific items should i request/expect the mechanic to do?
Quote from: Buck Naked on November 10, 2013, 07:47:56 AM
That's up there with the; "dent from previous owner" in my book. [laugh]
On topic, I echo HotIce's sentiments. Ebay Buyer protection favors the buyer so much it's ridiculous. You have little to fear. And what would a mobile mechanic do anyway beyond maybe the oil and a visual inspection? It's not as if he/she's going to check the valves. $170 sounds like a waste.
One problem i considered might be since the bike is a 2012, theres a chance that the previous owner purchased this in late 2011. And since theres only 500ish miles, theres a chance that the bike was in storage for quite some time. If the bike wasnt winterized properly, what kind of problems would this pose in the future? Is there a way or are there signs of corrosion or gunk build-up that can be visualized or inspected in the tank?
Heres a short clip of them starting up the bike. The quality was terrible to begin with and i couldnt figure out how to attach the video from my email since it wasnt sent as an attachment. Sorry, but u get a decent idea of how it sounds if you have a subwoofer. The salesperson sent me the video using a 3rd party client. So i filmed my screen...lol.
(http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m400/Flipztarrr/th_VID_20131109_201536_527-1.jpg) (http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m400/Flipztarrr/VID_20131109_201536_527-1.mp4)
Again, if this is the bike, it looks spanking new:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ducati-Monster-Motorcycle-2012-ducati-monster-796-abs-only-524-miles-termignoni-upgrades-brembo-/350918732319 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ducati-Monster-Motorcycle-2012-ducati-monster-796-abs-only-524-miles-termignoni-upgrades-brembo-/350918732319)
VIN looks clean. Not stolen, and never totaled:
https://www.nicb.org/theft_and_fraud_awareness/vincheck (https://www.nicb.org/theft_and_fraud_awareness/vincheck)
Asking price is a little steep though, IMHO. Yes, it is basically new, and yes, it has termis on, but it is $1500 over KBB retail.
I would likely not pay $9800 for that. I'd try to drop to around $9000 if possible.
Consider you are looking at $500 or close-by, of shipping too.
Quote from: HotIce on November 10, 2013, 01:29:22 PM
Again, if this is the bike, it looks spanking new:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ducati-Monster-Motorcycle-2012-ducati-monster-796-abs-only-524-miles-termignoni-upgrades-brembo-/350918732319 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ducati-Monster-Motorcycle-2012-ducati-monster-796-abs-only-524-miles-termignoni-upgrades-brembo-/350918732319)
VIN looks clean. Not stolen, and never totaled:
https://www.nicb.org/theft_and_fraud_awareness/vincheck (https://www.nicb.org/theft_and_fraud_awareness/vincheck)
Asking price is a little steep though, IMHO. Yes, it is basically new, and yes, it has termis on, but it is $1500 over KBB retail.
I would likely not pay $9800 for that. I'd try to drop to around $9000 if possible.
Consider you are looking at $500 or close-by, of shipping too.
Great point. Now what key points can i make to lower the asking price substantially? I would think that if i mention the KBB value, they would just counter by saying it has a 1600 exhaust on there w/ ecu etc. Then what would be my counter to that? And i would like to make the purchase thru ebay so that im protected, but i see that there are 2 other previous offers that are still pending. And i understand that i have more buying power if i wave the cash/pre-approved check in their face.
No idea ;D
But, what one pays for something, it is very much personal.
I'd throw an offer at $9000 and see if it sticks. If not, work your way up until price is right for you.
Quote from: HotIce on November 10, 2013, 02:26:45 PM
No idea ;D
But, what one pays for something, it is very much personal.
I'd throw an offer at $9000 and see if it sticks. If not, work your way up until price is right for you.
Thanks for your advice. I appreciate that.
Quote from: Chri5 on November 10, 2013, 02:23:30 PM
Great point. Now what key points can i make to lower the asking price substantially? I would think that if i mention the KBB value, they would just counter by saying it has a 1600 exhaust on there w/ ecu etc. Then what would be my counter to that? And i would like to make the purchase thru ebay so that im protected, but i see that there are 2 other previous offers that are still pending. And i understand that i have more buying power if i wave the cash/pre-approved check in their face.
In my experience as both a buyer and a seller in a retail environment, "negotiating" is the wrong way to...negotiate. The seller knows his own bottom line, as do you. Make your best offer, and politely explain that it really is your *best* offer...not because of KBB...or a keyscratch...or this or that. "This is what my budget can allow...can you accept it?" then be prepared to walk away.
That being said I really do loathe dealing with used car dealers...too often there's a ton of double talkin' BS and not enouh integrity, so the candid, respectful approach may not work. Some of these guys just can't do business that way.
Nada has that bike worth $7,500 including the exhaust (avg. retail). This seems low to me, but that's what they're saying.
KBB has it worth $8,400 in excellent condition (no option to add exhaust).
The dealer has to respect these values, as they use them against people who trade in cars. They most likely used the KBB and Nada trade-in values when they purchased the bike themselves, which means they paid WAY less than $9,800. They also know that aftermarket add-ons don't add much value, although the exhaust may have a value to you.
Based on the above, I'd offer the guy $8,000, and I'd reference the Nada and KBB values. He won't take it, but it is a reasonable starting position. His asking price isn't any more reasonable. Before you make an offer you just have to decide what your max. dollar value is though. Set it and stick to it.
I'd wait until you agree on a price to pay the $170 for an inspection, and tell the guy the sale is contingent on that (if you want an inspection). It looks like a very clean bike though.
Quote from: Triple J on November 10, 2013, 05:50:56 PM
Nada has that bike worth $7,500 including the exhaust (avg. retail). This seems low to me, but that's what they're saying.
KBB has it worth $8,400 in excellent condition (no option to add exhaust).
The dealer has to respect these values, as they use them against people who trade in cars. They most likely used the KBB and Nada trade-in values when they purchased the bike themselves, which means they paid WAY less than $9,800. They also know that aftermarket add-ons don't add much value, although the exhaust may have a value to you.
Based on the above, I'd offer the guy $8,000, and I'd reference the Nada and KBB values. He won't take it, but it is a reasonable starting position. His asking price isn't any more reasonable. Before you make an offer you just have to decide what your max. dollar value is though. Set it and stick to it.
I'd wait until you agree on a price to pay the $170 for an inspection, and tell the guy the sale is contingent on that (if you want an inspection). It looks like a very clean bike though.
You make a great point. Thanks for that. Now i have some type of leverage. Anything else you can recommend me use as leverage?
That's all I can think of. The question now is does the dealer, being a car dealer, know anything about the bike and its value and also how eager are they to sell it. Being a Ducati, they may think they have some rare special vehicle on their hands or something. In the end you just have to decide what you're comfortable paying, and don't go over that. If they don't accept it, then oh well. Good luck!
Quote from: Buck Naked on November 10, 2013, 04:45:48 PM
In my experience as both a buyer and a seller in a retail environment, "negotiating" is the wrong way to...negotiate. The seller knows his own bottom line, as do you. Make your best offer, and politely explain that it really is your *best* offer...not because of KBB...or a keyscratch...or this or that. "This is what my budget can allow...can you accept it?" then be prepared to walk away.
That being said I really do loathe dealing with used car dealers...too often there's a ton of double talkin' BS and not enouh integrity, so the candid, respectful approach may not work. Some of these guys just can't do business that way.
+1 my .02 is offer $9000, and walk away if they aren't interested. In the past I've even made an offer that was originally declined and I left them with my contact info. A week later they've called after not getting the interest they anticipated. Often dealers will also reduce price if you have your own financing or cash. They don't have to hassle with ppwk, I've had dealers knock 18% off the original price before.
As for buy it or not, as stated above it will largely depend on your comfort level. Based on the cars in the background of that shot though it looks to be a "premier" type dealer. They often times like a showroom full of eye candy (which would explain why they grabbed a Ducati), that means they don't tend to pull junk. Most the junk is taken directly to auction, that and their sellers rating considered and I would buy it if the price was right.
I have thought of another way that I hope will help me settle a better price. I've come across an article on motorcycle depreciation. The irs determined that the useful life of a vehicle is about 5 years. And the annual depreciation of a vehicle can be calculated by dividing the price of the vehicle by 5. So if the msrp of the vehicle brand new was $10300, the vehicle depreciates $2060 a year. Based on that the vehicle should be worth around $8200 this day.
What do you guys think of that?
Does it or does it not apply to this vehicle since the miles are low? Or does it apply because there are miles period?
P.s. I came across another 2012m796 in white about 20 mins away from me with 400 more miles for $9200. How can I use that info to my advantage? I really prefer to own the black one but obviously I'm not gonna mention that to the salesperson. All the negotiating will be done over the phone btw.
Personally, I'd stick with the BB and Nada values during negotiation, and maybe throw in the local one as well. I'd leave out the IRS paper. Something like, I can get this one for less than $9,200 and it's right around the corner...so I need the price of yours to be lower so it makes sense for me to come and get it...plus KBB only says it's worth $8,400.
I disagree with the approach of giving your best offer initially, and walking away if they don't take it. This is an OK approach for buying something from a friend...but a dealer is expecting a negotiation, and this approach isn't one. There's almost zero chance they take your first offer, as they expect to negotiate a bit and will therefore offer a counter. Your first offer is just your negotation starting point, just as their asking price is theirs. The idea is to set your 1st offer at a reasonable level to be taken seriously (if too low it will just get dismissed), while also giving yourself enough room to come up a bit comfortably.
If on the off-chance they do take your 1st offer, then rest assured you could have gotten it cheaper. There is an art to negotiation, and car dealers are very good at it since they do it every day.
Quote from: Triple J on November 11, 2013, 01:05:40 PM
Personally, I'd stick with the BB and Nada values during negotiation, and maybe throw in the local one as well. I'd leave out the IRS paper. Something like, I can get this one for less than $9,200 and it's right around the corner...so I need the price of yours to be lower so it makes sense for me to come and get it...plus KBB only says it's worth $8,400.
I disagree with the approach of giving your best offer initially, and walking away if they don't take it. This is an OK approach for buying something from a friend...but a dealer is expecting a negotiation, and this approach isn't one. There's almost zero chance they take your first offer, as they expect to negotiate a bit and will therefore offer a counter. Your first offer is just your negotation starting point, just as their asking price is theirs. The idea is to set your 1st offer at a reasonable level to be taken seriously (if too low it will just get dismissed), while also giving yourself enough room to come up a bit comfortably.
If on the off-chance they do take your 1st offer, then rest assured you could have gotten it cheaper. There is an art to negotiation, and car dealers are very good at it since they do it every day.
Thanks for that. Let u know how it goes.
Quote from: Buck Naked on November 10, 2013, 07:47:56 AM
~~~SNIP~~~
And what would a mobile mechanic do anyway beyond maybe the oil and a visual inspection? It's not as if he/she's going to check the valves. $170 sounds like a waste.
If they're decent sharp they could, for example, visually detect a bent frame.
Which most folk's wouldn't have a chance in hell of finding in photos online.
That defect would reduce the value substantially.
Or a bent wheel, rusty chain, tweaked forks, nail in tire, broken crankcases at the mounts, yadda yadda.
Quote from: Speeddog on November 12, 2013, 07:24:44 PM
If they're decent sharp they could, for example, visually detect a bent frame.
Which most folk's wouldn't have a chance in hell of finding in photos online.
That defect would reduce the value substantially.
Or a bent wheel, rusty chain, tweaked forks, nail in tire, broken crankcases at the mounts, yadda yadda.
Good points. I still think it would make more sense when buying a much older high mileage bike. In any case I would insist on only putting down a modest deposit as earnest money and reserving the right to refuse the sale. If he buys that bike through eBay he'll be extremely well protected. If not, request references. I still don't like the idea of buying a bike from a car dealer the more I think about it. But that one really is clean looking.