Here we go again [bang]
I asked God and Stuart, but since none of them answered - this is for you..
Half a quart of oil ~ in my airbox :o
No pictures, but looking at traces it's obvious that it comes from the crank house.
From the airbox 'pouring' into the lowest intake (vertical cylinder), especially in left turns, resulting in stuttering and white smoke.
Ideas? I have one myself, but I'd like you to think about this without evaluating my thoughts
The situation:
Top speed run through a tunnel
Roll off throttle
Stuttering
Another 50 miles less and less stuttering
Some stuttering after left hand turns
Stopped outside my dealer
Oil dripping out of the exhaust
Vertical spark plug wet (oil) Horizontal dry.
No scary noise or vibration
No oil pressure light
[coffee]
Has to be a breather problem...
or bad rings pressurizing the cases.
Essentially agree with DP's thoughts.
What is the oil level in the engine now?
Perhaps overfilled, and between the lines now?
Or low, now?
Same thoughts as above guys. Hopefully only over filled.
Was at max line.
Is well below min line.
I have overfilled by accident before - no such symptoms then.
This was a sudden event - I assume caused by a specific malfunction.
Can bad/broken rings increase the crank house pressure? In such a violent way?
I have nothing sensible to add Lars :-\
Just wanted to say... sorry to read this mate.
If it's just the breather it shouldn't be too $$ to resolve? I'll hope for that.
PS: Its "crank case", but we forgive you.
Yes, blow by from worn rings will cause this, but I suspect you have a problem in the breather, maybe a read valve that is broken or held open from sludge. As stated, overfull crankcase is a possibility too.
Quote from: stopintime on November 19, 2013, 02:23:53 AM
Was at max line.
Is well below min line.
I have overfilled by accident before - no such symptoms then.
This was a sudden event - I assume caused by a specific malfunction.
Can bad/broken rings increase the crank house pressure? In such a violent way?
Bad rings could cause it, but I think they'd have to be so bad you would see some other symptom like plug fouling or pretty poor running.
If it is rings, a simple compression test will easily detect which cylinder has the problem.
Quote from: ungeheuer on November 19, 2013, 03:19:45 AM
PS: Its "crank case", but we forgive you.
Crack house is the correct term [drink]
Quote from: howie on November 19, 2013, 03:26:34 AM
Yes, blow by from worn rings will cause this, but I suspect you have a problem in the breather, maybe a read valve that is broken or held open from sludge. As stated, overfull crankcase is a possibility too.
If it's open all the time - wouldn't that normally just cause a little vapor - not enough to fill the breather and then the airbox?
Exhaust comes off for cleaning - maybe time for new packing as well.
Heads and cylinders off to be inspected.
Breather valve will be checked.
Quote from: ducpainter on November 19, 2013, 03:37:34 AM
Bad rings could cause it, but I think they'd have to be so bad you would see some other symptom like plug fouling or pretty poor running.
If it is rings, a simple compression test will easily detect which cylinder has the problem.
Everything was fine until the tunnel run - no bad ring symptoms, so I can only assume that something dramatic happened then and there.
Other than drooling oil from the exhaust...how did it run when it wasn't trying to overcome the effects of dumping oil into the intake?
Quote from: ducpainter on November 19, 2013, 03:54:28 AM
Other than drooling oil from the exhaust...how did it run when it wasn't trying to overcome the effects of dumping oil into the intake?
Quite well, but I didn't push or rev it much, so it might have been working poorly on one cylinder.
Quote from: stopintime on November 19, 2013, 03:51:10 AM
If it's open all the time - wouldn't that normally just cause a little vapor - not enough to fill the breather and then the airbox?
Hard to say, on our twins there is always positive pressure in the crankcase and there is some vacuum in the air box. Vapor also does eventually become liquid. I should have asked, air box open or closed? More likely with a closed air box since more vacuum will be present. Add a little overfull, some hard riding and maybe some normal engine wear.
As Nate said, a compression test, or even better, a cylinder leakage test will determine cylinder condition.
Quote from: stopintime on November 19, 2013, 03:51:10 AM
Everything was fine until the tunnel run - no bad ring symptoms, so I can only assume that something dramatic happened then and there.
I'd have to agree, lots of oil in a short time, cant be good... I'd be thinking the worst, sorry to say...
Quote from: monsta on November 19, 2013, 05:04:39 AM
I'd have to agree, lots of oil in a short time, cant be good... I'd be thinking the worst, sorry to say...
Worse than piston rings?
Diagnosis is your friend, and always start with cheap, easy first. Compression/leak down test and breather inspection first. Compression good? Rings are not your problem. Worst case scenario? Nikosil failure.You wouldn't find that until a tear down. No reason for a tear down if compression is good.
The air box would not load up with oil quickly from a defective breather, but you would not spot the problem until you encountered a running problem or you looked in the air box.
Quote from: howie on November 19, 2013, 03:43:46 PM
Diagnosis is your friend, and always start with cheap, easy first. Compression/leak down test and breather inspection first. Compression good? Rings are not your problem. Worst case scenario? Nikosil failure.You wouldn't find that until a tear down. No reason for a tear down if compression is good.
The air box would not load up with oil quickly from a defective breather, but you would not spot the problem until you encountered a running problem or you looked in the air box.
Back when BCM was open they had a 749 bored out to 923 that would literally fill the airbox after relatively short periods of full throttle until it drained out all over your boot and the rear tire.
They never did figure out why, and it didn't do it when they made it a 749 again.
Quote from: howie on November 19, 2013, 03:43:46 PM
Diagnosis is your friend, and always start with cheap, easy first. Compression/leak down test and breather inspection first. Compression good? Rings are not your problem. Worst case scenario? Nikosil failure.You wouldn't find that until a tear down. No reason for a tear down if compression is good.
The air box would not load up with oil quickly from a defective breather, but you would not spot the problem until you encountered a running problem or you looked in the air box.
I'll try to have it tested soon for compression/leak down + breather valve - although I don't suspect this to have happened over time - the oil level was good up until the incident - after which it was much lower.
If it's a cylinder wall problem, I'll get it redone if possible OR reuse the previous cylinder(s) - good condition, but aluminum is 90,000km old.
My money's on a broken reed valve in the breather.
IMO, if it were a catastrophic piston or ring problem, it would've smoke-bombed that tunnel.
Quote from: Speeddog on November 19, 2013, 04:38:14 PM
My money's on a broken reed valve in the breather.
IMO, if it were a catastrophic piston or ring problem, it would've smoke-bombed that tunnel.
I'm with you. [thumbsup]
Lars, what did you find?
Quote from: koko64 on November 22, 2013, 04:20:22 AM
Lars, what did you find?
Nothing yet.
My dealer will do a compression test and take a look at the breather valve 'soon'.
I'll keep you updated [thumbsup]
No compression in rear cylinder :P
Haven't checked the breather valve yet.
Sorry to hear that Lars.
I'm surprised it idled.
Sorry to hear Lars.
It didn't idle well, but ran ~well at medium throttle/rpm.
Long winter to figure out what to do ;)
Sorry to hear. Hope the damage isn't too bad.
Ouch. Sorry to hear that :-\
Hope repairs are not too spendy.
Quote from: koko64 on November 26, 2013, 03:59:06 AM
Sorry to hear that Lars.
Quote from: ducpainter on November 26, 2013, 04:07:21 AM
I'm surprised it idled.
Sorry to hear Lars.
Quote from: howie on November 26, 2013, 05:20:13 AM
Sorry to hear. Hope the damage isn't too bad.
Quote from: ungeheuer on November 26, 2013, 12:11:14 PM
Ouch. Sorry to hear that :-\
Hope repairs are not too spendy.
What's with all the sad faces ???
Metal parts moving fast against each other... only a matter of time until something breaks [beer]
If I treated a stock engine nicely I would be pissed, but my situation is different...
I had plans for my bike anyway, so the timing is 'perfect' [laugh]
Cool...the glass is half full. ;D
You need a SBK for the track anyway. [laugh]
Quote from: ducpainter on November 26, 2013, 12:45:14 PM
Cool...the glass is half full. ;D
You need a SBK for the track anyway. [laugh]
Why didn't anyone tell me that four years ago [bang]
... but seriously, for me it's a billion times more fun going fast with a little Monster than with a SBK.
Priceless education too - engine, tuning, gearing, brakes, suspension, geometry a.s.o. I've had to learn better cornering skills to deal with the superbikes - my impression is that a lot of superbike riders don't take that seriously - many of them rely on straight line power and struggle with bike control before and during cornering.
Anyway, it's too late now - I've married my Monster and will keep enjoying it.
See, I told you, it was a piece of piston jammed in the breather valve. :P
You needed a bigger motor anyway.
Can the shop provide pictures of the perpetrator(s) for the curious?
Quote from: Speeddog on November 26, 2013, 01:24:51 PM
See, I told you, it was a piece of piston jammed in the breather valve. :P
You needed a bigger motor anyway.
Can the shop provide pictures of the perpetrator(s) for the curious?
;D
It's not taken apart yet, but I'll make sure to provide pictures when it is.
Quote from: stopintime on November 26, 2013, 01:00:39 PM
Why didn't anyone tell me that four years ago [bang]
... but seriously, for me it's a billion times more fun going fast with a little Monster than with a SBK.
Priceless education too - engine, tuning, gearing, brakes, suspension, geometry a.s.o. I've had to learn better cornering skills to deal with the superbikes - my impression is that a lot of superbike riders don't take that seriously - many of them rely on straight line power and struggle with bike control before and during cornering.
Anyway, it's too late now - I've married my Monster and will keep enjoying it.
I didn't know that 4 years ago. I had just recently gotten mine.
I understand what you're saying about riding a lesser bike fast.
That's what will allow you to ride a superior bike faster than the guys that rely on their right wrist rather than the capabilities of the entire package.
I still love my Monster and will have it forever, but the SBK is definitely more fun on the track...for me anyway.
All true DP.
I like having a street bike set up for public roads and a track bike set up purely to get around the circuit as fast as possible with no compromises for either.
I used to track day my retired VFR400 racer. I would pass the guys on bigger bikes in the technical sections, but they would pass me on the straights and I would have to do it all again each lap. I was worried some squid on a Hayabusa would T-bone me at the end of a straight. With the Gixxer, I can pass them and never see them again.
Hey Lars, any news?
[laugh]
Just a crack in one piston - as far as we were able to find out today.
Cylinder ok, rod ok, head & valves ok.
The color under the piston might be from the burning gas coming through the crack?
(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l394/stopintime/Stempel003_zps027ca67c.jpg)
(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l394/stopintime/Stempel015_zps60efefa2.jpg)
(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l394/stopintime/Stempel024_zpsce98cdb6.jpg)
So what's your plan, how far will you go? ;D
Quote from: koko64 on February 21, 2014, 11:57:33 AM
So what's your plan, how far will you go? ;D
I wish I was able to answer that with common sense, but hell no - all the way baby [bacon]
Wait! Recycling aluminum counts as sensible?
Quote from: stopintime on February 21, 2014, 11:42:51 AM
[laugh]
Just a crack in one piston - as far as we were able to find out today.
Cylinder ok, rod ok, head & valves ok.
The color under the piston might be from the burning gas coming through the crack?
~~~SNIP~~~
That piston was too hot for quite a while IMO, that's what the color is from.
I'm curious what the bottom of the other piston looks like.
What were the mods on this motor?
Quote from: Speeddog on February 21, 2014, 12:37:23 PM
That piston was too hot for quite a while IMO, that's what the color is from.
I'm curious what the bottom of the other piston looks like.
What were the mods on this motor?
Mods? A few, and then some [roll]
I'll have the horisontal piston to compare with in a few weeks.
If you're right, this might be a good example why tuned/high output air cooled bikes has or should have an oil jet under at least the vertical cylinder.
Don't know if it's relevant, but in the meantime maybe these pictures will tickle your brain...
(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l394/stopintime/Stempel038_zps38379e2a.jpg)
(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l394/stopintime/Stempel044_zps2aaf0b6e.jpg)
More red RTV than I'd like to see, and that O-ring is not good at all.
Rods look very nice, Carillo or Pankl?
Quote from: Speeddog on February 21, 2014, 01:28:19 PM
More red RTV than I'd like to see, and that O-ring is not good at all.
Rods look very nice, Carillo or Pankl?
Carillo.
I question the relevance of the piston color because of the burn mark on top of the rod. I've never seen anything engine internal worth mentioning, so it's not based on anything, just thoughts.
The O-ring and the red stuff was crowding that hole pretty well - significant?
(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l394/stopintime/Stempel031_zps2f1c273c.jpg)
(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l394/stopintime/Stempel029_zpsa1d76ed3.jpg)
Quote from: stopintime on February 21, 2014, 01:55:12 PM
Carillo.
I question the relevance of the piston color because of the burn mark on top of the rod. I've never seen anything engine internal worth mentioning, so it's not based on anything, just thoughts.
The O-ring and the red stuff was crowding that hole pretty well - significant?
~~~SNIP~~~
IMO, burn mark on the rod was from the short time it ran with the piston cracked all the way through.
Crack was due to loss of material strength from piston overheating.
*Why* it overheated is the big question.
That O-ring seals the oil gallery going up to the head.
It's pressurised, so I'm a bit puzzled why the O-ring went pear-shaped.
It is the *only* oil delivery to the head (unless an external line was added....).
If that gets plugged, the rocker arms and cam will die in short order.
Have they been looked at?
They will be looked at later when we do further work - thanks for the heads up [thumbsup]
There was work done in a failed attempt to stop a small oil leak from around where the damaged O-ring is. Something is wrong around there.
The map was altered last year to reduce the temptation to redline-rev it 'all' the time and to make it a little less throttle responsive at low revs. The idea was to reduce internal stress from explosive throttle response (it was amazing) and to motivate me to change gear sooner. I don't know if the engine builder did that because he saw how hot the pistons were running and I don't know how they looked then (13,000km ago)
Pistons are 53,000km old and have seen their fair share of action.
I'll show him the pictures and ask for an evaluation and how they looked last time he saw them. He's going to have to answer about the O-ring too.
All this is pure speculation at this point - I'll have to dig a little.
What vintage are those crankcases and cylinders?
I think the combination of O-ring and base gasket there isn't standard.
I can see the oil squirter hole, perhaps it's plugged with debris?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK, had a bit of a think about the O-ring, and looked at cases and parts catalogues on how it's done.
Old-school setup, AFAIK model year '00 and earlier:
AFAIK, the O-ring is used with a base gasket that has a large hole, such that the o-ring mates with the cases on one side, the cylinder barrel on the other, and is restrained radially by a shallow counterbore in the cylinder and the base gasket.
In my experience, this works fine.
New-school setup, '01 -'06
Some wanker at Ducati figured out that they could save a dollar by not using an O-ring, and thus depend on the gasket sealer compound to keep it oil-tight.
Like many things new-school, it was a profoundly bad idea, as a significant percentage of them leaked.
another new idea, '07 'til '12
As penance for the failed previous idea, they decided that perhaps a small bushing at the interface might be an improvement.
It seems to work, as I don't recall seeing that era of bikes with a base gasket leak.
Skeptics may point out that this now is an inferior setup, as there's more machining, a steel bushing likely costing more than an o-ring, *and* a loose part that can fall in the motor during assembly, and possibly cause serious mayhem if not witnessed and retrieved.
Perhaps *this* will do it.... '13 onward
Not being satisfied with leaving something that works as is, they've now added an o-ring around the bushing.
Even more costly than before.
Pretty sure that Brad Black or others who have been around Ducs longer than I can verify the crossovers.
In summary, this is a rather distressing issue.
Sealing of ~100psi hot oil in a gallery across a relatively stout bolted joint is not a new thing.
I'm pretty sure several suitable methods were sorted out in the latter third of last century.
Quote from: Speeddog on February 21, 2014, 07:09:13 PM
What vintage are those crankcases and cylinders?
I think the combination of O-ring and base gasket there isn't standard.
I can see the oil squirter hole, perhaps it's plugged with debris?
..............
It's a 750, don't know the exact year.
I can't see any groove for the O-ring, be it in the cases or base gasket. It looks like an attempt to hold the O-ring in place by adding red stuff.
The red stuff and O-ring moved and was partially obstructing oil flow. How severe the oil flow was obstructed is hard to say - as you mention it's under pressure.
Quote from: Speeddog on February 21, 2014, 07:09:13 PM
.......
I'm pretty sure several suitable methods were sorted out in the latter third of last century.
..........
Are you saying that Ducati is arrogant and won't admit mistakes? ;)
If memory serves me well the O rings disappeared in 2001, along with the groove for the O ring. Mine leaked when new. Replaced gasket, proper amount of tri bond and 60+K miles later no leak. The S4 was more of a problem since the galley in that corner needed to be plugged. I would suggest either do not use O rings (worked for me) or cut grooves for them.
I'm curious why that piston was running so hot, particularly since I see no signs of detonation. What does the other piston look like?
Quote from: howie on February 22, 2014, 03:30:25 AM
..........
What does the other piston look like?
Don't know yet. Will report that and how the cam and rockers look, later.
Well.... :-\
Two rockers toast (vertical head)(pictured disassembled)
Cam has some marks (vertical head)(both cam pictures are of the vertical)
Horizontal piston equally discolored
One rocker has signs of wear (but not as bad as in the vertical)
Cam, horizontal, has no marks (not pictured)
The rockers and cams were fine ~6,000 miles ago and so was the oil O-ring.
(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l394/stopintime/Verticalrockerarms_zps0aa7fd6e.png)
(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l394/stopintime/Verticalcamseethirdlobe_zpsbc327170.jpg)
(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l394/stopintime/Verticalcam_zpse16e930f.jpg)
(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l394/stopintime/Horizontalpiston_zpsa1b65288.png)
(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l394/stopintime/Horizontalrockers_zps6dadad84.jpg)
est no bueno...
Sorry to see. Only one thing to do now, this situation has forced you to built a 100hp replacement motor [evil].
Cam and the 3 rockers where we can see the running surface... scrap.
The color on the bottom of the horizontal piston is more than I'd want to see on a street motor.
Horizontal piston was not nearly as hot as the vertical.
Vertical was most hot on the exhaust side, which isn't much of a surprise, as that side has almost no airflow on the barrel.
I'd like to hear what ducvet thinks, he's got a big contingent of 800SS racers in his area.
Quote from: koko64 on February 27, 2014, 02:34:05 PM
Sorry to see. Only one thing to do now, this situation has forced you to built a 100hp replacement motor [evil].
I'm pretty sure he had nearly that already.
This is the 98PS motor, yes?
Quote from: Speeddog on February 27, 2014, 02:39:30 PM
........
I'd like to hear what ducvet thinks, he's got a big contingent of 800SS racers in his area.
I'm pretty sure he had nearly that already.
This is the 98PS motor, yes?
Will Ducvet answer here, you think?
It is that engine, yes.
Not decided what's next.
I might repair this one, use it for another year and/or keep it as a spare.
Maybe returning it to rich mixture throughout the rev range + switching to a larger oil cooler under the horizontal head - aiding air flow to the vertical (?)
If a new tuned engine is made, it's going to have under-piston oil jets.
It's still fun with such a beast of an engine, but the constant repairs take some of it away...
:)
If you want to get his opinion you should email him
eric at clubhousemotorsports dot com
Tell him we sent you. ;)
Quote from: stopintime on February 27, 2014, 03:09:06 PM
~~~SNIP~~~
It's still fun with such a beast of an engine, but the constant repairs take some of it away...
:)
I'd say that a less highly tuned 1000-based engine would be the best approach.
Wide ratio 6-speed, more efficient heads to work with, and likely cheaper to make more power than you've got now.
And it'd be a dry clutch, so your street cred goes up a bunch too.
8)
Okay this is a can-o-worms. But lets look at some things.
Please give me a little background.
750 motor
what year?
whose pistons?
size of pistons?
miles on pistons?
use of motor (race track/street ...both)?
Rpm run? (built motor on a 750 I would guess it lives near 8-10,000)
It appears you have the later cases with the oil jets already. This might just be the photo but if you look at the inside right above the main bearing you may see a pin hole on the left side case. On the cases I have here the vertical hole is fed by the passageway under the red screw into the left main and then squirts onto the piston.
The Horizontal pulls from a different feed, if both were equally discolored and you do have the jets then this would mean that it was unlikely one jet was blocked. Given the pictures of the red sealant in the oil feed hole you may have blockages. Do not rebuild without checking ALL passages are clear. The blockage may or may not have caused the rocker issue I have seen plenty of heads that are cooked and they often do not loose chrome but it could happen.
I have seen race pistons crack simply due to time/stresses and this is why some times a race piston is not good for a high mile bike, some race pistons get replaced on a schedule of hours. Some brands shoot for light weight at the cost of material thickness under the dome and are more prone to crack than others. Those old school heavy forged pistons often had pretty thick domes, newer materials and processes lead many to think they can make them thinner and you can.... for a while.
The pistons we know were not cooled well and they were probably run hard and hot. There is evidence of sealant in oil passageways (and I would check the crank) that can cause a reduction in oil flow which could lead to all kinds of problems.
The base should get a counter bore for an o-ring and NO sealant around the o-ring just the base gasket if you are using one (if not the mating surface).
depending on the year of the cases and the miles I would be tempted to swap out the cases for fresher ones as they go for short money for a small case bike and you can get some that have not been used hard. You obviously have some money tied up in that crank assembly with the rods I assume you had it all balanced as well. I would tear it all down and get the crank cleaned/inspected and the rods re-freshened (have the small ends looked at carefully that is the weak point on carillos right where you see the heat damage). get it looked over carefully so you do not do damage to the crank /rods.
You might want to look at a s2r 800 motor and swap parts , you might be able to use your crank/rods and gain bigger valves, 6-speed and a slipper clutch with fresh cases.
Thanks Eric,
my comments in yellow as we go...
750 motor
what year?
whose pistons?
size of pistons?
miles on pistons?
use of motor (race track/street ...both)?
Rpm run? (built motor on a 750 I would guess it lives near 8-10,000)
S2R800 built at 50'km - 'everything' done - great results
At 90'km rebulit with used 10'km 750 cases, cylinders and heads - again 839cc, ported, same 6 speed, crank, rods and pistons.
Pistal pistons, very thin where they cracked - 53'km on them
Mostly street, but ~30% of yearly 20'km is spirited street and track/race
RPM... don't know what to say.. 15% at a pace that will heat to 240F - otherwise at 200F
It appears you have the later cases with the oil jets already. This might just be the photo but if you look at the inside right above the main bearing you may see a pin hole on the left side case. On the cases I have here the vertical hole is fed by the passageway under the red screw into the left main and then squirts onto the piston.
I see a pinhole there, yes
The Horizontal pulls from a different feed, if both were equally discolored and you do have the jets then this would mean that it was unlikely one jet was blocked. Given the pictures of the red sealant in the oil feed hole you may have blockages. Do not rebuild without checking ALL passages are clear. The blockage may or may not have caused the rocker issue I have seen plenty of heads that are cooked and they often do not loose chrome but it could happen.
I have seen race pistons crack simply due to time/stresses and this is why some times a race piston is not good for a high mile bike, some race pistons get replaced on a schedule of hours. Some brands shoot for light weight at the cost of material thickness under the dome and are more prone to crack than others. Those old school heavy forged pistons often had pretty thick domes, newer materials and processes lead many to think they can make them thinner and you can.... for a while.
I really don't expect lightweight high compression pistons to last forever - at 53'km I can't complain too hard - can I?
The pistons we know were not cooled well and they were probably run hard and hot. There is evidence of sealant in oil passageways (and I would check the crank) that can cause a reduction in oil flow which could lead to all kinds of problems.
The base should get a counter bore for an o-ring and NO sealant around the o-ring just the base gasket if you are using one (if not the mating surface).
Counterbore/groove on cases, not on base gasket - right?
depending on the year of the cases and the miles I would be tempted to swap out the cases for fresher ones as they go for short money for a small case bike and you can get some that have not been used hard. You obviously have some money tied up in that crank assembly with the rods I assume you had it all balanced as well. I would tear it all down and get the crank cleaned/inspected and the rods re-freshened (have the small ends looked at carefully that is the weak point on carillos right where you see the heat damage). get it looked over carefully so you do not do damage to the crank /rods.
These cases, cylinders and heads are at 23'km. I'll make sure everything is checked.
You might want to look at a s2r 800 motor and swap parts , you might be able to use your crank/rods and gain bigger valves, 6-speed and a slipper clutch with fresh cases.
okay bear with me here but by 50'KM do you mean 50 Kilometers , 50,000 Kilometers or 50K(thousand) miles. Just trying to get it right. I get the feeling we are dealing with big numbers.
Pistal pistons are good pistons but yes they are pretty thin under the dome. I have not seen a set of the 90mm bore 800 pistons as our race limit is 800cc so no over bored 800's here. I have a set of 795 (90mm) pistals to compare and yes the under dome area is thin.
They are race pistons and as such they are probably not going to see much more than 8000-16,000 Km before we would change them out in a RACE BIKE. Given your street bike/track mix You should get more miles and I think you did if I am following you correctly. I would bet the motor ripped and as such it would be used as it should . High miles(Km) and race parts do not always work together and you might have found the limit on these.
Do you know when the pistons were out last case swap if the piston bottoms were as cooked?
Check the oil jets in the cases to see that they are not plugged, a combination of high miles and an over heated piston might have shortened the life. I see cooked pistons like that on old non-oil jet motors but the 750 cases you used should not have been that bad. I just checked a set of recent 800 hi comps that came out of a bike and the bottoms look new.
Do you know whose piston design they were? You might ask who you got them from how they have been holding up. We had Bruce Meyers designed Pistals (his spec.) for the most part but on some designs he would buy some one else s design of pistals. We even had a set of superbike pistons not last a weekend once, the price of R&D.
Stock pistons last........ a long time but we want more than that. Any time we ask for more there has to be a trade off. Forged pistons are stronger but then we need to make them lighter, I will always complain when something wears out/breaks because I don't want to keep re-building the same thing. All you can do is look at the replacements and guess/explore if they will last as long or longer.
Early base gaskets did not go around the oil feed o-ring, later ones did. If I am using a base gasket i like the ones with a ring around the o-ring but I do not use gasket sealer near it. The sealer can distort the o-ring and cause a leak. If you have the counter bore in the cases they should be good.
check both oil jets there should be one for each piston . all it would take is some red sealer to plug something up. I have found RTV inside crankshafts that have spun rods.
If the cases are at 23,000km then they should be fine. I have not seen the later (post 1998) small cases crack much so you should be good. I would tear it down and double check oil passages,inspect the oil pump, rebuild the crank and rods, mount up some new pistons and get back out there
50'km means 50,000km (~31,000 miles), so yes, big numbers.
I didn't see the pistons during the last rebuild at 90,000km. The engine builder would have, should have, could have spoken if he noticed signs of overheating under the domes. Maybe he did, but didn't think it was necessary to replace - maybe they looked fresh. This subject will be part of the discussion about how to solve the problems.
I don't know whose design the pistons are.
They were ok from 50,000km and until the crack, at 103,000km.
Building is fun - repairing is not.
Obviously there is a fun factor in riding built and tuned engines in a 'perfect' chassis and I can't really say for sure that they don't last - I don't think any engine would run 100,000 km, with my use, without a need for rebuilding. The difference is that most riders/bikes never reach that day... and if they do, they just buy another cheap stock engine.
I think I have a pretty good idea how to deal with the O-ring now - thanks to the DMF members. Shouldn't be to hard to make it work...
[Dolph]
What was rebuilt at the 90000km build?
The pistons may have been good at 90000, I still question the undersides of the pistons . They look like a old style 750 race motor I pulled apart a few years ago and that motor had no piston jets, same overheated pistons and rod small end. Yes you are the test pilot most wish we could be. With that kind of mileage you need sponsorship.
I am with you on the build vs repairs. last year I cracked my 750 cases and found the crack the day before a 2 day track event .
Nothing lasts forever, built or stock. Often times the aftermarket parts are the first to break due to many factors. lighter parts often are not stronger than the heavy parts they replace, they may be as strong but often not stronger. we all want race parts on our bikes because... well they are fun. Race parts are often supposed to be replaced much more often than standard parts. The parts sales guy is often not your friend when he shows you the latest superlight ti rods, that should be rebuilt at 20,000-25000 km oh and use 4 $200 rod bolts to do so.
Some of us will never learn to keep a motor stock as it is just not in our DNA, hard to put a price on the smile when your creation is just so much fun to ride.
Quote from: clubhousemotorsports on February 28, 2014, 06:41:29 PM
What was rebuilt at the 90000km build?
Replaced the cases, cylinders and heads. Bearings, shims, valve guides, gaskets and other small parts.
Quote from: clubhousemotorsports on February 28, 2014, 06:41:29 PM
........I still question the undersides of the pistons .
As do I, but if it's about lack of oil spray because of blockage... is it likely both pistons would miss it?
Quote from: clubhousemotorsports on February 28, 2014, 06:41:29 PM
........ hard to put a price on the smile when your creation is just so much fun to ride.
Not hard to quote the price - I have all the receipts, but I won't discourage other engine tuners or spoil an otherwise perfect weekend for anyone.
I would check with the builder about the underside of the pistons then because if the pistons were cooked at that time they should have caught it. The motor certainly was apart enough.
With the new cases you might have started the oil problem. I would look to make sure all passages and oil flow was the same between the parts. If the oil was not being pumped to the jets then it would explain both pistons over heating. I wonder if there was a compatibility issue with the parts assembled. Say the red bolt not correct for the year cases used, should you have had the pressure relief in the cases for the year cases used or in the pump body as the 800 uses.
Either way something was not feeding oil to the jets, it may have been blockage somewhere that feeds both jets (and possibly more) or it could be the cases flow oil differently on these cases then the 800 cases you started with and the oil pressure simply was not there.
Still not 100% this was the cause of the crack but it certainly did not help anything by running that hot. couple that with the high Km and you know thee rest. big thing will be seeing if the pump is feeding those jets properly and if they flow as they should. Then it will be a matter of going over everything to make sure there is nothing else damaged.
Quote from: clubhousemotorsports on March 01, 2014, 06:27:54 AM
..............
Still not 100% this was the cause of the crack but it certainly did not help anything by running that hot. couple that with the high Km and you know thee rest. big thing will be seeing if the pump is feeding those jets properly and if they flow as they should. Then it will be a matter of going over everything to make sure there is nothing else damaged.
How is such a test performed?
Pressurize the oil feeds at about 50psi (real pressure will be between 30psi @hot idle and 100psi) and make sure you are getting a steady stream of air out the holes. If you can pressurize to the lower pressures it will show how much comes out at idle. I assume you are not at idle all that much so you are seeing higher pressures mostly.
If you are having a hard time seeing if anything is coming out squirt a little oil in there and (with safety glasses) see that it is pushed out when you feed the passageways. You may need to block other holes that also feed off of the same oil feed. This may be an area to look at as well. was there a lack of pressure because the oil found another passage to bleed out of?
I'm not sure I get it....
Where should I pressurize?
Into the oil cooler ports will just blow into the cases - at least if it passes reverse through the pump and mesh filter?
Looking at the work shop manual the crank shaft ends seem logical, but I don't know if they are open.
Are the oil jets fed from the oil filter center through the main bearings?
Suggestions?
(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l394/stopintime/Oljesystem_zpse98f7e20.png)
okay lets start with what year are the 750 cases?
Ducati has changed the cases from year to year so do not expect the oil paths to be the same. On the 2002 cases on my bench the oil travels up through the filter then some is bled off to the right side main, the oil goes into a cavity around the outside of the main and then out the horizontal jet hole.
The oil from the filter also crosses the cases through a passageway that has an o-ring between the case halves. This passageway IS the hole the "red screw" is screwed into on the left side case half. Keep in mind the red screw is hollow with a jet hole in IT. Oil travels through the screw and then feeds the cavity around the left side main. This is where the oil jet for the Vertical gets its oil.
If there is low oil pressure from the pump you will not get much pressure squirting on either piston. If the oil pressure is low because there is no o-ring in the case, sealing the pump, wrong red screw, cases not drilled cases plugged around the mains you will not get oil jets.
I would start by pressurizing the oil feed where the oil filter screws on. Now you will have air blowing out everywhere because this is the main feed for the bike but you should feel some coming out the horizontal jet hole because it is so close. next I would blow through the red bolt hole while covering the filter feed to see if you can get air up through the vertical jet hole. You can reverse the direction with a rubber tipped air gun and see if the passages are clear you should have air blowing out the red screw hole on the vertical and the filter feed on the horizontal.
Now to throw a wrench in the works Ducati has changed the red screw feed more than once s there is no telling without looking at your cases if this is even the oil pathway. You simply will need to strip the cases and follow the oil path from the filter to find the passages for your cases you are using. The picture you have shows the oil jet being fed by the oil feed to the head while the cases I have here are NOT fed by that line, You need to look at the cases you have to see which ones you have. Mixing the cases,pumps,heads etc may have not had the oil path left for the jets , you simply need to investigate .
I don't know the year of my current 750.
The work shop manual picture is from an '06 S2R800.
The oil jet seems to be at the same position.
From my pictures a page or two back, I see a pin hole by the main bearing - suggesting I have oil jets (?)
If the cases, cylinders and heads are from one engine (I was told they are) - what could be wrong with the passages, cavities or pathways? 'Only' the red bolt?
Quote from: clubhousemotorsports on March 01, 2014, 01:58:47 PM
.....
I would start by pressurizing the oil feed where the oil filter screws on. Now you will have air blowing out everywhere because this is the main feed for the bike but you should feel some coming out the horizontal jet hole because it is so close. next I would blow through the red bolt hole while covering the filter feed to see if you can get air up through the vertical jet hole. You can reverse the direction with a rubber tipped air gun and see if the passages are clear you should have air blowing out the red screw hole on the vertical and the filter feed on the horizontal.
I almost manage to follow you this far, but tell me: is the 'red bolt' visible from the outside? Up in the oil filter location? Reversing air sounds easy enough.
I'll have pictures up in a little while showing the red bolt and stuff.
Vite rossa?
(http://i62.tinypic.com/16c0y0l.jpg)
Fully subscribed [popcorn].
Yes that is the infamous "red bolt"
Now from the late 90's to modern times the passage has changed and this is the concern of whether you have cases that are feeding those jets or not. You can pull the left side cover and see the red bolt as shown or at least see what is there on the cases you have.
If you give us the engine number on the left side case half we can possibly tell the year of your cases. for instance my 620 cases are marked RA22****** most likely one of those 2's is the year of the engine 2002. These cases use the red screw and have the jets. The 750 cases are the same part number so the same in 2002. In 2003 the following year there is a different part number for the 620 and 800 cases so we know something changed in the 620 cases from 2002 to 2003, we just do not know what was changed it could be oil related or simply a color change of the cases.
i've seen the red bolts sitting down the bottom of the case cavity under the flywheel. just sittin.
I've been into the "red bolt issue" a couple of times, and just the other day pal Henrik dug out thie info, based on the part number for the "red" bolt. Don't know how this will come out, but I'll give it a try ....
As you can see, no real logic to what bike got it first (seems like 750 Supersport was among the first...)
779.1.029.1A
THE PART NUMBER YOU ENTERED HAS BEEN REPLACED WITH AN UPDATED PART NUMBER
779.1.029.2A
Product Fitment/Applications:
Ducati Hypermotard 1100 S 2008, 2009
Ducati Hypermotard 1100 Standard 2008, 2009
Ducati MH900E 2002
Ducati Monster 1000 2004, 2005
Ducati Monster 1000 S 2003
Ducati Monster 620 2004
Ducati Monster 620 DARK 2006
Ducati Monster 620 DARK2DIS 2005
Ducati Monster 620 IE 2002
Ducati Monster 620 S 2003
Ducati Monster 620 SIE 2002
Ducati Monster 620 Standard 2003, 2005, 2006
Ducati Monster 695 2007, 2008
Ducati Monster 750 2001
Ducati Monster 750 IE 2002
Ducati Monster 800 2004
Ducati Monster 800 S 2003
Ducati Monster 900 IE 2002
Ducati Monster S2R 1000 2006, 2007, 2008
Ducati Monster S2R 800 2007
Ducati Monster S2R DARK 2005, 2006
Ducati Monster S2R Standard 2005, 2006
Ducati Monster S4 2001, 2002
Ducati Monster S4R 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006
Ducati Monster S4R TESTASTRETTA 2007, 2008
Ducati Monster S4RS TESTASTRETTA 2007, 2008
Ducati Multistrada 1000 DS 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006
Ducati Multistrada 1000 SDS 2005, 2006
Ducati Multistrada 1100 S 2007, 2008
Ducati Multistrada 1100 Standard 2007, 2008
Ducati Multistrada 620 DARK 2006
Ducati Multistrada 620 Standard 2006
Ducati SportClassic 1000 BIPOSTO 2007, 2008
Ducati SportClassic 1000 GT 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010
Ducati SportClassic 1000 GTTOURING 2009
Ducati SportClassic 1000 LE-PAULSMART 2006
Ducati SportClassic 1000 S 2007, 2008, 2009
Ducati SportClassic 1000 Standard 2006
Ducati SportTouring ST2 2003
Ducati SportTouring ST3 2005, 2006, 2007
Ducati SportTouring ST3S ABS 2006, 2007
Ducati SportTouring ST4 2002, 2003
Ducati SportTouring ST4S 2002
Ducati SportTouring ST4S ABS 2003, 2004, 2005
Ducati SportTouring ST4S Standard 2003, 2005
Ducati SuperBike 1098 R 2008, 2009
Ducati SuperBike 1098 RBAYLISS 2009
Ducati SuperBike 1098 S 2007, 2008
Ducati SuperBike 1098 Standard 2007, 2008
Ducati SuperBike 1098 STRICOLORE 2007
Ducati SuperBike 1198 RCORSE 2010
Ducati SuperBike 748 R 2002
Ducati SuperBike 748 S 2002
Ducati SuperBike 748 Standard 2002
Ducati SuperBike 749 2003
Ducati SuperBike 749 DARK 2005, 2006
Ducati SuperBike 749 R 2004, 2005, 2006
Ducati SuperBike 749 S 2004, 2005, 2006
Ducati SuperBike 749 Standard 2004, 2006
Ducati SuperBike 996 Standard 2001
Ducati SuperBike 998 2003
Ducati SuperBike 998 SBAYLISS 2002
Ducati SuperBike 998 SBOSTROM 2002
Ducati SuperBike 998 Standard 2002
Ducati SuperBike 999 R 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006
Ducati SuperBike 999 RXEROX 2006
Ducati SuperBike 999 S 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006
Ducati SuperBike 999 Standard 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006
Ducati SuperSport 1000 2004
Ducati SuperSport 1000 DS 2005, 2006
Ducati SuperSport 620 S 2003
Ducati SuperSport 750 Sport 2001, 2002
Ducati SuperSport 750 Standard 2002
Ducati SuperSport 800 2004
Ducati SuperSport 800 S 2003
Ducati SuperSport 800 SS 2003
Ducati SuperSport 900 Sport 2002
Ducati SuperSport 900 Standard 2002
From today:
Castings on cases say 98 with eleven dots - assume cases were made Nov '98 - don't know for which model year.
Red Bolt in place. Not blocked. Hole in the end and ~10mm from the head.
No oil jet for horizontal piston.
Vertical rod small end has surface chips.
(can rods be replaced without splitting cases?)
Base gasket hole might be too large - letting the O-ring slide/crumble into the opening. OR too narrow - not letting the O-ring sit securely between case and cylinder. Maybe grooves in the case and the base gasket?
Test 1
Air into oil filter intake, with plugged red bolt hole = air out vertical jet and out the hole to head (can't remember for sure, but I think also to the horizontal head)
Test 2
Air into Red Bolt hole, with plugged filter intake = air out vertical jet and out the hole to both heads.
Test 3
Air into oil pressure sensor hole = air out vertical jet and out one or two holes to heads.
(the whole album is here http://s329.photobucket.com/user/stopintime/library/Damages%20current%20engine (http://s329.photobucket.com/user/stopintime/library/Damages%20current%20engine) )
Castings on cases, cases made in 98 (?)
(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l394/stopintime/Damages%20current%20engine/Stempel001_zpsffe18383.jpg)
Horizontal, no oil jet
(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l394/stopintime/Damages%20current%20engine/Stempel003_zpsf8258218.jpg)
Red Bolt
(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l394/stopintime/Damages%20current%20engine/Stempel005_zps9ee385da.jpg)
Must find solution for O-ring
(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l394/stopintime/Damages%20current%20engine/Stempel006_zps837f09c0.jpg)
Chipped surface on rod small end
(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l394/stopintime/Damages%20current%20engine/Stempel006_zps837f09c0.jpg)
Vertical valves
(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l394/stopintime/Damages%20current%20engine/Stempel015_zps6ff39880.jpg)
Horizontal valves
(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l394/stopintime/Damages%20current%20engine/Stempel014_zps7c64b941.jpg)
[drink]
Nice pictures.
Yes your cases are made in 1998 November. This should make them the same all the way up to 2002. the same as my 2002 m620 cases.
You should have a small pin hole (piston oil jet) in the horizontal hole. As you look inside the horizontal case hole you should see a small pin hole on the left hand side. It is on the opposite side of the vertical jet hole. I do guess it is possible that ducati forgot to put one in or simply decided the horizontal did not need one. [bang] I remember drilling those holes on some race motors we built in that era but I do not remember which cases or why. Seems odd to have 1 drilled and not the other.
I can remove and replace rods in larger case motors such as the 900 and up (doing a 748 now) but I am not sure I could on a small case motor with the smaller bore. It would be hard to fit torque wrenches in there, I have not tried one yet to see if I could pull it off. If the cases are out of the bike I would not bother and just split them you have already done most of the work.
The oil feed o-ring at the base gasket will deform and leak if you get gasket sealer on it. The cases/cylinder grow and the o-ring would be happy but the sealer has stuck it to one side and it will deform. We had this happen to us as well and learned to keep the o-ring clear of sealer. We once tried to use sealer on o-rings and that simply does not work. One or the other, but not both.
Your tests show that outside of the missing horizontal piston jet you are getting clear passageways everywhere. It appears there is no blockage and if low pressure air is getting through the oil should as well.. Have you inspected the oil pump? I would also look at both rod bearings if you are pulling the rods to make sure you were not low on pressure. With functioning oil; jets and good pressure (any idea of pressure, was it tested) I see no reason for both pistons to be burnt on the bottom. The vertical should have had a functioning oil jet but the crack would have burnt it pretty good . the horizontal may have had no jet so maybe it was a little of both.
Brings us back to why did it crack?
If the jet was cooling the vertical piston and the crack then happened I would guess the piston just fatigued.
Have you figured out what has happened to the "chipped" rod? Coincidence that it was the one with the cracked piston? Or related.
Any other damage in the motor? Have you found anything that may have gotten in the piston rod area to maybe crack a piston and damage a rod? I had a SV650 race bike in the shop last year with a blown gearbox and the broken teeth junked the rods and cylinders, I would look things over well. might not be related but I would not take a chance and not look.
It is hard to tell from a picture but you had a picture earlier of the Carrillo rod burnt as well , I would send at least that rod back to Carrillo to have it reconditioned/inspected. Carrillo rods are really good stuff but the small end of them is the weak point and you have "chips and visible heat damage on yours.
oops!
I just saw the picture of no oil jet for the Horizontal. Yes I would drill a hole for one. You need to remove the main bearing shell and you will see a cavity that runs around the bearing. It should have a feed hole to it from the oil system. Drill with small bit the same size as the verticals jet hole. Angle the hole so that it points at the bottom of the piston when the crank cheek is clear Should be TDC for the Horizontal. Aim the drill to end up in the oil channel and that should give you a horizontal oil jet. you can see the flat area where the jet should be in the center left side of the hole.
Quote from: clubhousemotorsports on March 06, 2014, 05:42:39 PM
.........
It is hard to tell from a picture but you had a picture earlier of the Carrillo rod burnt as well , I would send at least that rod back to Carrillo to have it reconditioned/inspected. Carrillo rods are really good stuff but the small end of them is the weak point and you have "chips and visible heat damage on yours.
...........
I emailed the rod pictures to Carrillo and they think it looks like melted aluminum. I need to check to confirm, but it seems right - the 'chipped' area has a surface that looks like the normal surface. I don't know this stuff, but the 'chip' might be a chip of the once melted aluminum, not of the rod surface itself. Carrillo suggest media blasting the remaining aluminum, magnaflux for damages and recondition. If I wish, they can do it for $120.
This all requires the cases to be split - which I hope to avoid...
[coffee]
Sounds like someone else should be splitting those cases at no charge to you to make sure everything is alright. If you need new rod bearings and rod bolts plus a re-condition on the rod it will be much cheaper than letting a weakened part run in your soon to be fresh motor.
I can show a picture of what that could look like, and I got off easy...I think.
Quote from: Speeddog on November 19, 2013, 04:38:14 PM
My money's on a broken reed valve in the breather.
the breather on my 04 620 has been misting a lot more oil lately than ever before. i can't seem to get it off to inspect it. It's the OEM breather. I was afraid to use too much force and destroy it. Is there some magic to removing it and opening it up?
Bike is back and running [thumbsup]
Details at this point:
the piston damages are normal - 'nobody' has ever seen 'race'/high comp pistons with 50,000km on them. Now we know how long they can last - or not.
The rocker arms and cams weren't damaged due to heat or lack of oil, but because they were knocking together and finally the rocker chrome gave up. As much as I'd like to blame someone else... I have to swallow this one myself because I treated it too hard (Alps, Autobahn, trackdays, racing) without valve adjustments for ~9,000 km. The first edition of tuned engine didn't require much shorter intervals, but this engine obviously did. There were no real signs of friction burn and I skipped at least one required valve adjustment. Lesson learned.
New pistons are in. The type I had are no longer available, so now I'm running 90mm Pistals called 750F1 Laguna Seca (IIRC). The dome on these reach much higher and would create WAY too much compression, so they were machined. Not enough material to lower them much/at all, but reduced the diameter of the dome. Strange looking, but with correct squish edge and ordinary compression 10.9/1.
Rods are fine. Like Carillo suspected, melted aluminum on the small end. Nice and round small end hole.
Didn't see exactly what was done, but a new O-ring arrangement is in place. Since the interface between my '98 750 cases and cylinders didn't have guides/locating dowels, which may have allowed movement, they installed guides to keep those parts from floating. The theory is that this might have caused or contributed to the dislocated O-ring. We'll see how well it holds up.
I asked about the missing horizontal oil jet and was told where it is. It's an opening, almost like a gap or a crack, somewhere close to the bearing. It squirts oil onto the rod which in turn flings it toward the piston. At least, that's how I understood the explanation.
The horizontal cam is ok - the vertical is ~ok, but will be replaced 'soon'.
I only did a short and mild test ride, but it seems to run smooth and strong with normal sound and vibration.
Updates will follow as we go along [Dolph]
Nine paragraphs and not a single picture. Not good enough!
Seriously tho, awesome that your bike is running again.
Quote from: Privateer on March 17, 2014, 07:50:10 PM
the breather on my 04 620 has been misting a lot more oil lately than ever before. i can't seem to get it off to inspect it. It's the OEM breather. I was afraid to use too much force and destroy it. Is there some magic to removing it and opening it up?
No magic.
Is it the all-plastic with a hex (actually octagon IIRC) on the lower part?
Quote from: Speeddog on April 07, 2014, 06:34:53 PM
No magic.
Is it the all-plastic with a hex (actually octagon IIRC) on the lower part?
yes.
I didn't want to destroy it getting it off so when it didn't turn easily I stopped. I've heard elsewhere the plastic ones can crack pretty easily.
so just slide in a corresponding open end wrench and turn CCW?
Quote from: Privateer on April 09, 2014, 10:33:06 PM
yes.
I didn't want to destroy it getting it off so when it didn't turn easily I stopped. I've heard elsewhere the plastic ones can crack pretty easily.
so just slide in a corresponding open end wrench and turn CCW?
Theoretically, yes.
I've not seen an open end wrench that will fit over it *and* fit in that space.
I can't remember what I used the last time I took one off, perhaps smooth jaw channellocks.
Quote from: Speeddog on April 10, 2014, 09:46:15 AM
Theoretically, yes.
I've not seen an open end wrench that will fit over it *and* fit in that space.
I can't remember what I used the last time I took one off, perhaps smooth jaw channellocks.
yeah after wrangling it for the better half of an hour I see your point. Something is definitely going on there and up front somewhere. oil mist all over the engine. back area near the breather and down near the temp sensor, on the transverse surfaces of the rear sets... /sigh
Quote from: Privateer on April 10, 2014, 04:41:23 PM
yeah after wrangling it for the better half of an hour I see your point. Something is definitely going on there and up front somewhere. oil mist all over the engine. back area near the breather and down near the temp sensor, on the transverse surfaces of the rear sets... /sigh
It seems mine is leaking from the middle of it, kind of where there's a seam running the circumference.
does the oem breather come apart? Is there something going on inside it I can fiddle with or clean up to stop the oil seep?
well after some makeshift repairs to the OEM breather, a garage scrounge band-aid on it, and a week commuting there doesn't seem to be any oil leaking from it. Not sure about the mist through the filter. that's a project for another time.
New cam going in 8)
Oil leak is back - will (?) be fixed by blocking the through-cylinder oil passage and installing outside line from oil pressure sensor location to cam cover. Fingers crossed for a final solution.
(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l394/stopintime/VCamM900SS90002003_zps432ced79.jpg)
900ie cams. (I looked up Brad's cam specs) ;D
So going for "more" cam again. [evil]
Quote from: koko64 on June 18, 2014, 06:08:02 AM
900ie cams. (I looked up Brad's cam specs) ;D
So going for "more" cam again. [evil]
Same as now, but in better condition than my current one (see pictures earlier).
Really good reading, thanks for posting up the details :).
Good longevity on the motor all things considered about the pistons. At least it didn't do what happened to my mate's late model R6:
(http://photos-g.ak.instagram.com/hphotos-ak-xpf1/10311227_1436170399974830_142470665_n.jpg)
Amazing your bike just dumped it all up in the airbox and ran ok. Craziness.