I own a cousin of the ducati monster, a cagiva 650 elefant. Came stock with a 650 Pantah engine. Well I am in the process of a full remake and want to put a modern fuel injected engine in, obviously I will need injection, ignition and wire harness too. I have been considering a 695 which would seem to be the easiest fit size wise or an 800 which has been used as a replacement in 750 elefants. Since the elefant will be used for off road, smooth tractable power is more important than raw horsepower. Any feedback on suitability of the engines listed or any others would be appreciated.
Ducatiz has an E650, maybe he'll chime in.
Will be interesting to see which larger motors fit the early "airbox" style frame.
Fitment wise, no difference between 695 and 800, it's the same motor other than the crank and pistons.
Somewhere in the vicinity of the 2000s, the engine mounting bolt size changed. I would assume it also changed for any Elefants that may have been available on the world market.
Year of the bike would be good here.
I will sell you a Single Spark m1100 EVO motor with a custom map for that motor (dyno tuned) with injectors, with throttle body and with TPO BEAST-R kit, if you think it will fit. Motors got less than 3k on it.
It isnt tuned for raw horepower ( i think i the motor is capable of 100RWP with the right exhaust system on it). I have dyno maps to go.
the only issue is that the ECU is keyed to the gauges, (ill throw in the gauges for free) but you can also unlock it from the gauges if it pleases you.
SOrry for the plug in, but id like to see that motor go somewhere cool.
Engine swap is relatively easy, you will need to modify the frame for 12mm motor bolts verses the 10 you have OEM. Wiring the bike up for fuel injection will be the bigger problem though. Plus you will need a high pressure pump, pressure regulator and the ability to return excess fuel. Maybe a tank (if you can find one) from an Elefant 900IE? Duck-Stew did this on a Monster several years ago. He might be able to clue you in on the difficulty and give you some hints. I'm a fan of fuel injection, but, in this case, would strongly consider a set of FCR carbs.
Thanks for all of the input. I figured in order to convert to fuel injection I would need the donor bikes wiring harness and probably gauges. The 650 elefant tank has a petcock on both sides, it was suggested that I could use an external fuel pump and use one side as the fuel return. Drilling the frame to 12mm would be easy enough. I will have to figure out if an 1100 would fit, thinking about the height of the rear cylinder, I would assume it is taller than the stock 650 Pantah?
where are you located....
I have a Cagiva Gran Canyon that I am looking to sell if you want to use it as a donor
As you know the frame backbone tube is also a plenum for the airbox on the older 650/750 models. Its substantial and I'm not sure a 900+ motor would fit, but ducatiz should know. Sounds like an 800 fits (the big small case). A long manifold carb motor will have to run short manifolds to clear the air tubes that exit the backbone/plenum .
It might be cheaper to fit a late 750 motor, if you dont need too much power. You could run a bigger motor but use your Dellortos and short manifolds. I know a guy who has an E650 and E750 Bifaro and he says the 32mm CV Bings on the 750 (and stock pipe) strangle it terribly. So the early 750 really seems undercarbed. This guy says the 650, despite its small valves and less capacity is much more responsive with the 36mm Dellortos. I was going to buy his Bifaro 750 and use 39mm Mikuni flatslides (TM38).
I think using a carbed 750 motor would be much easier letting you use your normal ignition, carbs, etc.
ducvet, a member here is in the process of doing the same. I believe he's chosen a 750 carby.
You can email him eric at clubhousemotorsports dot com. to get his thoughts.
Be good to see what he builds.
I really would like to go fuel injected, I also own a 510 husky which is FI and it makes a world of difference in fuel economy and ride ability at altitude. My 650 Pantah engine only has 5,300 miles on it so if I were to stay with carbs I would probably just put that back in...so it sounds like a 695 or 800 are most likely to adapt to my in frame air box, I need to find one and get some dimensions of throttle body height in relationship to engine mount points and compare.
Horizontal TB:
the inlet faces toward the rear of the bike with the 2D of the hole canted at 24 degrees from level. The rear of the inlet hole is 5 inches above the mounting bolt.
The vertical TB faces to the front of the bike and is extends ~3 1/8 inch ahead of the mounting bolt. The highest point on the system is the fuel "hat" for the vertical cylinder. It is about 1.5 inches above the 5 inch measurement for the horizontal throttle body.
S2R800...
I have an issue with the fuel economy being the reason for avoiding carbs. My M750 often gets better fuel mileage that a lot of people report on here from similar sized motors. I turn in 35mpg commuting on a tank (never above 35MPH, lots of stop and go) to 45+mpg when out on a ride (plenty of higher speeds, lots of hard acceleration and such).
Jm
I thought the elefant cases were different at the swingarm pivot? width?
Quote from: brad black on February 18, 2014, 03:04:28 AM
I thought the elefant cases were different at the swingarm pivot? width?
That wouldn't surprise me. [bang]
My comment on FI yielding better fuel mileage is based on my experience in Baja with a group of 20 riders and a mix of carb. And FI 450 to 500 singles, the FI bikes always used about 20% less gas. I have noticed on rides over the sierras that FI bikes run the same at sea level as they do over high mountian passes where the carb. Bikes get rich and loose power. Since my plan with this bike will be dirt back roads and mountian passes those both seemed like good traits to look for.
I have read the Ducati cases need to be narrowed at the swing arm mount but it didn't seem like a concern.
I am watching a couple auction sites for crashed 695, 696 and 800s, seems like finding a whole donor bike would be smart...
Paso 750 is drop in but you have to use the original carb setup.
The e650 engine is an oddball, retaining the kickstart and introducing the reversed head.
You can use a later 695 or 800 but you'll have to make a custom exhaust. With the Paso 750 engine you can bolt pretty much everything on.
Quote from: brad black on February 18, 2014, 03:04:28 AM
I thought the elefant cases were different at the swingarm pivot? width?
They are small pin. Like a paso. The width can be shimmed.
The pin mounts are actually plugs. Drill them out and use them on a large pin panta with shims and bushes
Some unsolicited comments from the peanut gallery. I have a 650 Elefant also. It's a nice and unique bike, but...you mentioned that the focus of your bike will be off road use. Light weight is always better for offroad, a lot better. The Ducati twin motors are by definition heavy or at least heavier than an equivalent displacement single. The 650 Elefant frame is also pretty heavy and has a long wheelbase for a dirt bike. The stock exhaust is suitable for a stationary generator or a military vehicle and it's also heavy, although I assume you're going to replace it along with the engine swap. The front forks are less than the best.
If I were going to build a dedicated dual sport with an emphasis on dirt, I'd look at Husqvarna or KTM as a starting point. Just had to get that off my chest, and good luck with your Elefant project.
Elefants are great all rounders though and I would rather the smoothness of a 750ish twin for the highway/backroad sections between dirt roads. For "real" dirt riding you are absolutely correct, but I find track days exhausting enough nowdays! [laugh] I plan to do two up camping type touring on rough canyon/forest roads and good dirt roads with the wife. Would have snared a 750 Bifaro if my wife didn't lose her job.
By off road I mean dirt fire roads and limited two track. I own a gasgas300 for serious off road and a Husqvarna TE510 for real dual sport action. Thinking more along the lines of riding with my friends who take their bmw gs and triumph tigers off road.
[thumbsup]
Looking forward to seeing what you do.
I'm a big fan of these bikes and will eventually have one.
My plan, early 750, TM flatslides, pipe and modified intake.
I toyed with the idea of hi comp pistons, etc, but my plans for using the bike changed..
Good luck with the project.
Not sure if this will help, but it's a pic of '86 Cagiva 650 crankcases.
Appears to be 15mm through.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3712/12704132035_7a4d1cb5a6_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/79721557@N02/12704132035/)
Quote from: Speeddog on February 22, 2014, 01:40:57 PM
Not sure if this will help, but it's a pic of '86 Cagiva 650 crankcases.
Appears to be 15mm through.
It doesn't help... no pic. ... [evil]
Just checking to see who's paying attention.
Those cases won't fit 750 barrels without machining will they?
Quote from: koko64 on February 22, 2014, 05:01:12 PM
Those cases won't fit 750 barrels without machining will they?
Just tried it, won't go.
That's a shame.
However, the 650 models look more dirt focussed and less all rounder for that purpose. According to a guy who has both 650 and 750's, the 650 with smaller valves, higher comp and slide carbs is better for dirt riding even if the valve sizes and capacity restrict peak hp. He's a serious dirt rider.
Ducatiz just loves his 650 to bits.
Are the 650 and 750 cams different?
Dunno about the cams, all I've got are the cases. :P
My Gran Canyon on a good dirt road can spin a TKC-80 (even with all of it's bulk pressing it down) at will until 60 mph, even with a wheezy W-head 900.
Less bulk is definitely better for serious off-road.
I saw some Doug Lofgren dyno charts that compared the W 900, V 900 and IE M900 motors. The graphs were under the title Evolution of the Monster 900 motor or something like that. The W heads sure keep the torque down low, so maybe dirt diggin' was a legit rationale for the Elefants/GC's at least.
No wonder your GC is a grunter! [evil]
I would say you are correct.
It's a grunter, for sure.
But in marginal traction conditions out of slow corners, one must be quite careful with the throttle.
It's a too big a beast to have it sideways going slow.