Hey guys few km from the first ride after the restoration of my monster, probably the con rod failed!!!
I think the fault its on the power commander 004 map which has different set up on each cylinder :/...
Now because i am going to tear the engine apart i am thinking to boost it up a little bit so i'd like to ask what to do except fix it of course so i can gain few hp from the cheapest to the most expensive solution... I would also like to ask if i can use con rods, crank shaft or any other parts from a 998, 916 or 748 engine....
I was thinking for lighter crank and flywheel putting "if i can find something not extremely expensive" titanium con rods, "tune" the cams a little bit, new exhaust and a proper mapping on a dynometer i would love to go somewhere between 130 to 135 hp so is those things enough what else i have to do to go up to that numbers without loosing reliability....
Here's a pretty good recipe:
http://www.bikeboy.org/996SPS.html (http://www.bikeboy.org/996SPS.html)
I'm not sure about the life of aftermarket titanium rods.
The Pankl rods that are fitted to 'R' models do have a limited life, eventually the big ends go oval.
Be prepared to come up with a big bag of money.
Sorry to hear that P.
I hope it comes back even stronger.
put a 900 crank in it. it gives 1026cc, which is somewhat irrelevant, but with an extra 0.6mm base gasket it should have 0.9- 1.0mm squish, 12.75 or so comp and no belt tension issues. simple solution to 3 points.
if you really want to spend money on rods buy carrillos. otherwise use std.
a 'std' crank used to weigh 4.5kg ish, an sp/r crank 4kg. but the later ones are getting lighter due to drilled passages and no oil filled big end journal, etc. just make the flywheel light and leave the crank as is. cheaper. unless you want to spend money.
996sps cams, which are hard to find s/h, are what you need. or the schrick/msd/f1 cams that ducati kaemna use. spend the money here if you want the power, don't buy some other cams because they're cheap.
if you want more power, get into the heads. that's where the power hides.
fit a full system of some sort. if using the original short bits near the heads, get rid of the formed step bit. that will hurt it.
tune it properly, with a map for it. not something from the dynojet site. this is the most important bit, otherwise you just wasted a shit load of money.
because there a lot of ducati tools misings from my collection i am not sure i am able to tare the engine apart by my self so the bike went into the shop today for diagnosis. Tomorrow i will be sure 100% about whats is exactly wrong with my bike. Right after the diagnosis i will have to make a long talk with the mechanic on whats is going to be next i told him of course that i want to gain few hp after this hole operation so i think he will do his homework, this specific guys was a member of a locals sbk drivers team and he was preparing a full ducati corsa 916 bike so i am sure he knows what to do!!!! As soon as i have any news i will update... Thanks all for helping i think i will touch my goal of 135 hp and why not few more than that lets see... :)
hey guys does anyone know if i can use the crankshaft from the 916 motor to the 996 motor?
s4 or st4 yes, 916 no.
may i know the reasons because i have two crankshaft a st4 oem one and 916 with titanium con rods both are in motors and i have to tear them apart of course... Why i can't use the one from 916? is not the same 916 motor in the st4?
916 motors were all single-phase charging, so the crank end is different from the S4R.
So the crank doesn't fit neither from st4 2002 or the 916 or it does but it change the way that motor work? can i use the 3 way charge system to the single way charging of 916... I really want to use this titanium rods....
916 crank will not fit the flywheel/rotor of the s4r engine.
St4 crank will fit your s4r.
Those titanium rods will require different pistons, as their lateral position is controlled by the pistons.
Also would likely require the crank be rebalanced.
For a street bike, the benefits of titanium rods are tiny, while the drawback of reduced life is big.
Steel rods position are controlled by the crankshaft.
copy that... ok i will tear apart the st4 motor to see in what condition is the crankshaft and the rods.... I didn't mention what happend to my motor so eventually the engine was opened and i notice that the con rod bearing of the horizontal cylinder spinned in its place... Does anyone hear anything similar?
failed big ends bearings is not uncommon, but it's not a regular thing by any means. just something that happens.
all 996 and later 4v motors have small end located rods, even the steel rods. so use rods to suit the pistons.
sell the ti rods to someone else who thinks they're good and buy a pair of carrillos.
carillos don't need different pistons to guide their lateral position?
carrillos will either be "916" (big end located) or "996" (small end located) style. the 996 big and small ends are 21mm wide from memory, 916 22mm wide.
Lets take it from scratch because i know a thing or two about bikes but i am not a mechanic or a ducati expert mechanically speaking.
i have right now two motor to spare a 2002 st4 916 full stock and a 916 motor from a 916 bike, wich has in it a pair of pankls con rods, these should be the sp ones i really don't know if they are titanium or combination of alloy like the carillos.
So... should i put on those for road use? If they messure 22mm on the bottom i can't use them at all?
I am being annoying i know and sorry about that but i want to avoid any mistake, because i am feeling that i can't take to "rip down" my bike a third time....
If the 916 motor has sp cams too except from the con rods should i use those? Do they have a bigger lift or duration?
I have some good news too, i found in the workshop a nice pair of termignoni st4 headers. A nice adding for my exhaust project...
:)
P.s Thanks all of u for your helpfull answers!!!!! :)
I found a pair o 916 sp cams and they look really aggressive with a lot more duration and probably 1mm of lift more i didn't messure them though...
I mesure the piston pin from my engine and it mesures 20mm, from the 916 sp it mesures 21mm, if this is the instalation hassle i will anyway order new pistons because mine was damaged a little bit from the anorthodox movement of the con rod and i can order the new ones with 21mm pin.
Does anyone know from what metal those pankl 916 sp rods are made?
Go to my reports page and read all about cams, etc. And 916SP power delivery, and all that stuff.
916 SP has an In between rod, small end located, but wide. Good luck finding any pistons with 21mm pin, 916SP, 888SP5 only. Rods will be steel.
900 crank, extra base gasket, sps cams. If you want more power, do the heads. Or buy an s4rs.
Thanks brad Black for all your help full comments, eventually because i cant find locally a 900 crank and because i have already one from the st4 i will use it as i am going to do with the oil pump from the same motor just in case.... I installed yesterday the sp cams on my heads and oh my god these cams are aggressive... I also managed to check the valve clearence at he vertical head on Monday i will do the other also... I am very curious to see the dyno results when the whole bike is back together.... Anyway i am on a ferracci high comp piston kit but also i did like to know if the half bearings from the con rods and the bolts of the con rods are available in the market except the ducati dealers, as oem products.....
hey guys it is time for me to order new half bearings for my duc but i can't figure out which ones should i order!!! to the numbers now i have both crank and con rods marked with "B" my crank pin messure 42.02 mm and the play between pivot shaft and con rod bearings is 0.052... What half bearing colours should i order because the dealer can't help me and when i told him that the manual says " "b" crank "b" con rod" 1 blue 1 red he told me not a chance " is that true? Should i order or RED or BlUE? Please help!!!!
generally you need 2 blues, no matter what the manual implies. get a machine shop to resize the rods to minimum and check the clearance.
Thanks... :) i will do...
The motor block is ready i installed blue half bearings as Brad indicated me and it was the right thing to do :) !!! I had tuned my heads with the Gs & As camshafts but after some reading and a lot of consideration + people here told not to put them, i took them again off and put back the std ones i had, for now... I am not building a race bike and i think i wont be happy neither my engine with the high rev power window those camsafts give. I have already put the corsa camshafts for sale so i can buy probably a FBF set with the money because i want those ++ horse :P ! I after all ordered a FBF piston kit with 12.5 final comp. Because i used st4 crank and rods i had to machine each piston 1.6mm total because the st4 con rods are little bit more wide than mine, and i saw that after putting the hole thing together otherwise i could machine much more easily the con rods. What centerlines do you people think should i use considering i have a little more comp than stock? I will probably will use a MWR HE filter and a custom combination of termi st4 headers and gb carbon mufflers. Chears :)
you should have used the 996 rods.
i'd use the same cam timing i always do.
I thought they were the same :/ anyway i don't think i will have any issues as they look pretty tough too, just a little bit more friction on the piston pin because of the wide conrod!!!! Ok i will go 108/108 centerlines but first i have to make 1000 slow km before i step on the dyno!!!! Thanks again!!!!! I will update asap :)
Finaly i fired up my baby today, no weard noises from the engine, it started up quite easy.... I will do few slow kilometer without revving the engine, because of the new pistons after that i will install new exhaust new friction plates and i will tune it with custom map on the dyno.
get it hot once until the fans come on, then allow it to cool to cold. that will let the pistons move. then get it hot again and give it a hard time. if it has new rod bearings i wouldn't rev it over 6 for a while, but certainly give it full throttle 4 to 6 to bed the rings in.
Yes that is exactly what my mechanic told me to do... To run it jently untli 5 to 6 rpm. When i fired up i let it go hot i open the cap of the conteiner over the engine so the coolant can bleed easy, i also unscrew the bolts of the oil lines on both cylinders just to be sure about oil circulation, i double check also the belts because they are new... I hope everything will be fine :) :) :) Thanks egain for everything :) as soon as i have any news from the bike progress i will update.... :)
first run on the dyno yesterday and it was a bust hp speaking!!!! 95 whp at 7250 9.7 torque at around 5500 something went wrong imo!!! Very nice pull but it dies really soon.... I will tweak the cams and re run on Monday...
95!
Find out what's wrong?
I did put the exhaust cams to std specs and retard the inlet cams just a little bit, now i have 9.1 torque and 108hp crank horse power at 10000ish rpm. In the afternoon i will try all std specs to see what happens. I have though to ask what is the difference between Sae horse power and crank horsepower? Are my numbers ok because i don't have a comparison from before overhauling the engine... All these measurements are without the new exhaust that i am planning to install std headers, custom rubbish cat eliminator, danmoto mufflers... I will keep just the mufflers for the new exhaust and i will modify a st4 termi full system to fit on mine...
There is rear wheel hp and crank hp and different kinds of hp, SAE, STD, DIN, KW, etc. Brad has a good article on hp on bikeboy.org. He also has good articles on the S4R, MS4 and ST4 models including exhausts.
I have already download and print those articles :) i am reading them as we speak!!! :)
Great stuff neh?
Yeah Brad has made an absolutely amazing job gathering all those info... You go from noob to duc expert (ish) after few hours of reading. So far i didn't know that each tooth change on the pulley is around 40 degrees so i came to a conclusion of what went wrong... The first run was with the centerlines around 104 inlet 106 exhaust which is low and the run from today where inlets around 123 and exhaust around std spec. I will try to put every pulley in std spec and then i will try an another run to see what happens...
It's very good stuff. A generous sharing of knowledge. [thumbsup]
crank hp is power measured at the crank. some will give you a relationship for how rear wheel hp compares to crank power, but i've never seen a scientific justification for it. the power you get at the rear wheel is the power you have.
sae is a correction standard, as is din or std. it just accounts for the difference in ambient air temp and pressure at the time of testing. each standard is different, sae gives the lowest corrected power.
i set the cams around std specs i now have 108 crank horsepower and 10.1 ft of torque, i am on the exhaust now because my cheap custon catalitic remover maybe cause this mess otherwise the high compression of the pistons cut from my bike top end power which can be fixxed with cam instalation but not for the moment because my pocket is pretty empty!!!! I wish i'll gain few horses after the exhaust installation. lets see....
Brad can you please tell me what is your recommended air to fuel ratio on these bikes?
12.8.
Ok thansk a lot.... !!!!
Heyyy all i have very good news... After the exhaust installation http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=66915.msg1260446#msg1260446 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=66915.msg1260446#msg1260446) i run the bike one more time... The results.... Amazing!!!! The bike now has 115 whp and 10.4 ft of torque
previous dyno with same power commander and cam set up was 95 whp and 9.8 ft of torque. I have also to mention that we don't have yet make the maps for the pc3 i run now a slightly changed can map.... We will dial cams first to move the curve where we want and after that we will work with the pc3.... I am looking forward to see the final outcome of this project...
Quote from: Metzis on July 05, 2014, 06:18:15 AM
Heyyy all i have very good news... After the exhaust installation http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=66915.msg1260446#msg1260446 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=66915.msg1260446#msg1260446) i run the bike one more timeon the dyno... The results.... Amazing!!!! The bike now has 115 whp and 10.4 ft of torque
previous dyno with same power commander and cam set up was 97 whp and 9.8 ft of torque. I have also to mention that we don't have yet make the maps for the pc3 i run now a slightly changed can map.... We will dial cams first to move the curve where we want and after that we will work with the pc3.... I am looking forward to see the final outcome of this project...
does that exhaust give you a dip in the midrange?
The curve is really very smooth from 3+ to 9+... on Monday i will take a photo of the dyno chart comparing before and after the exhaust installation because i am not 100% sure, i was really too much happy with the results that i didn't pay any attention to the details... I know the bike isn't nothing too special at the moment but because the numbers from the first rolls where very disappointing that is why i am that glad, i feel that i am on the right direction for bigger numbers right now.
(http://s25.postimg.org/efsrg41dr/image.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)
Here is the results for now as it is without a proper map installed on the bike... Tomorrow me and my mechanic we are going to tune it properly on the dyno...
The is a fault to the diagram thought and what you see its around +1000 rpm... Brad do you think i should try to dial the cams a little bit or to live it as it is. I didn't go with the recommended way that it's in the manual. I just align the dots on the pulleys with the gap which is behind the pulley.
if the power is peaking at that close to the limiter i'd say it's not too bad. what is the timing set to now?
Now the spec are set as if it wasn't with adjustable pulleys so it should +-2 around factory spec....
if you used the factory tools to set it then ime it will be quite a bit more 2 degrees off. do it properly.
or not, up to you.
Because i read the article of yours about S4r and st4s being way of factory settings comparing st4 and other 916 being around factory settings, i took all the pulleys into my hand and align them comparing to a non adjustable pulley from a 916. I can try though to adjust them one more time with the recommended way and give it a try on the dyno. In fact i will. As soon as possible i will come back with the results...
Hey guys unsurprisingly my s4r broke down again.... Probably something with the valves the sound was really horrible when it happened... I am done with ducs really.... You love or hate... I used to really love this bike but now i went on the dark side...If i was wealthy enough i would go outside of the dealership and i would set it on fire, Its maybe my 28th bike since i was 14 including four stroke two stroke 1 cyl two cyl four cyl. This crap happened to me again just with a husqvarna smr once more... I am about to burst in tears really, so so tired with this bike...
Really sorry to hear that.
Hey all my little monster is really unlucky including me.... But in the end i was quite lucky too... the problem caused by cc belt skipped 2 or three teeth on the pulley and the exhaust valves of the horizontal cyl hit the piston.... The outcome less the 3 degrees bended exhaust valves which i fixed in the machinery shop two belts and 2 closer shims.... I say quite lucky because when it happent i thought that the bike will never fire up again... Right now it drives really fine but i have to changes the closer shims because with the force of the hit the clearance of the closing get bigger and the clearance of the opener smaller... I fixed openers by changing shims but i don't now how to measure closer shims. now i run 15 opener and around 25 closer which is quite a lot and after 6 k you can hear that something is wrong over there.... I don't of course rev the engine at the moment but i wan;t to fix that asap... My closer shims say 3.1 on them but because of the force of the impact with the piston now the measure something different than that i think... I have like 20 closer shims right now but i don't know how to take the measurement so i can come up with a 3.1 which i want... The shim i have are form 916s so they don't have anything printed on them... I use a micrometer for the opener shims, how i am supposed to measure the closer shims? They have a hole in the middle :P also what is the measurement of the original tool 88765.1322 by it's self?
Maybe you can get the closer shim measurement tool from EMS in the USA. Maybe you can make one to fit in the closer shim.
The problem is that i don't know if the 3.1 measurement printed on the shim is the actual measurement of the shim it's self or combined with the original tool. does any one know?
The number on the shim is the shim dimension only.
Thanks :) that was really helpful i will try to find something to seat in the shim so i can take a measurement... Thanks again... An other quick question... With 25 clearance to the closer can cause any damage to anything in sort term, like three four days of normal driving?
Quote from: Metzis on August 03, 2014, 05:51:12 AM
Thanks :) that was really helpful i will try to find something to seat in the shim so i can take a measurement... Thanks again... An other quick question... With 25 clearance to the closer can cause any damage to anything in sort term, like three four days of normal driving?
25 what?
thousandths...mm?
I think 4V bikes use a different spec on closers than the 2V, but Brad would be the one to comment on what it actually should be.
edit...
info from Brad's page... http://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2011/02/ducati-closing-valve-clearances-and.html (http://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2011/02/ducati-closing-valve-clearances-and.html)
0.25mm or 0.008 inches i think....
According to Brad's site that's pretty loose.
Whether or not it will do any damage in a couple of days I can't say.
I'd warm it up and keep the revs down if it were mine.
Ok, let me get this straight, you bent a valve and then straightened it. Is that right? If so, dude, that motor is going to blow up. The head will break off of the valve and punch a hole in the piston.
The work has been done by a professional, the seal perfectly and as he told me it was just a little bented less than few degrees, so i don't think there will be a problem with the valve the thing i am worrying about is the closer clearance and how quickly they can cause a problem if they are off by a tenth of a mm...
i see lots of bikes with 0.25, even up to 0.35 or so.
after all the problems and everything i adjust the clearance of the closer to around 0.1 mm and today we made a custom map eventually for my monster.... The results 117 whp and 11 kg.m torque... Quite good for now... But i have still some thoughts to use the cams from the 916 sp i have... Not sure yet!!! As i said for now i am pleased so i will stick at this stage for a while.... I mod i am thinking is to make a custom ram air because i noticed big difference to the the power curve from the bike while was around 70 degrees celsius and over 85... Fresh cool air right in the intake i think will help... What is your opinion about that mod?
That's good power for 916cc [thumbsup]
Maybe ask Brad and Speeddog about intake mods for this model. Does the bike have an open airbox?
The bike is 996 :/
Forgot. Its an S4R! [laugh] Still good.
Open airbox?
Yeah i have the airbox cutted but i am not sure if that's enough for the engine to produce the best out of it... But of course i am not an expert or anything that's why i am asking because i don't want to throw away any more money just for experimenting with the bike...
It seems like you are building a nice engine.
Valves are too cheap to have bent ones straitened, it's too much of a risk!
Yeah i know if the guy from the workshop didn't ensure me that i wouldn't have any problem for sure i would buy new ones but i have done more than 2000 klm since then and still no problem "lets cross our fingers it will stay that way"
i have an another question for Brad :) Brad do you know how many degrees should i retard intake and exhaust 916 sp cams so i won't have clearance issues between valves and piston? !5.000 km service is coming and i am thinking to try them.... :)
Maybe you should pm him to be sure. :)
Quote from: Metzis on September 09, 2014, 04:13:46 AM
i have an another question for Brad :) Brad do you know how many degrees should i retard intake and exhaust 916 sp cams so i won't have clearance issues between valves and piston? !5.000 km service is coming and i am thinking to try them.... :)
you retard the inlet and advance the exhaust. 10 to 15 degrees on each at a guess.
it'll really run like shit then.
I understand the reason it's too much... Do you think that i could send them over for reprofile ? Do you think it's possible for an expert to make this specific cam with less duration, so i wont have any clearance issues....
Sorry for all those questions but i want to make some more out of it with the things i have, i tried to sell these cams so i can afford to buy ferracci or v2 cams but with no hope....
the problem with the desmo cams is that the opening and closing lobes are a pair, and developing them is where the money is. and there's not a big market for them, so no one spends the money required to make them.
the reason you don't want the cams you have is the same reason no one wants to buy them.
someone told me last week that brook henry has his sps cam sets on the shelf. ask him. http://www.veetwo.com.au/ (http://www.veetwo.com.au/)
I have a set of the 996SPS cams Brad mentioned awhile back I could get rid of, if you want them. They're in my old 748/853 motor.
Brad, the 748/S4R heads are swappable, right?
nice... With how much $ are you willing to let them go...? Brad from your experience how many hp will be my gain with these cams? Now i am at 117 whp... And a small reference to my set up... 48mm headers custom 2-1-2 exhaust, 12.5 comp pistons, sponge filter, cutted lid, Pc3, lightweight non adjustable cam pulleys from 916 sp, std gearing, iridium spark plugs.