I had a minor fiasco with the custom lines I ordered for my build being unsuitable (my fault, and now stuck wit em') so I've decided to switch gears and use a single caliper/rotor setup for my 944 project bike. I have 65mm spacing on my rebuilt forks, which limits me a bit. My sales guy is pushing hard for me to keep the 19RCS master for this project but I have my doubts...Brembo themselves do not recommend the 19 for anything other than dual caliper applications. His theory is: bigger piston = more power to the single rotor. I'm not sure if I buy that...espec considering the number of retailers that only recommend the 15RCS when the bike is primarily ridden on the street. Which it would seem to me, if the power comes on too aggressively with 2 rotors, this would only be exacerbated when using one.
I'm trying to avoid a setup that has little to no feel and unfriendly onset of power for a commuter bike.
An example of a setup that sounds nice to me for a mildly hopped up 900 is;
A single 6 pot ISR billet caliper mated with a Braketech Iron Rotor
A 4 pot 4 pad Brembo with the same rotor, both using the 15RCS
In summary, I'm seeking opinions on which size master to use; larger or smaller. Thanks! [coffee]
There's a reason Ducati uses a smaller diameter master on the single rotor bikes.
The sales guy is wrong.
+1 ^
Be good to get some advice from a brake specialist.
The big bore M/C might work with the 6 piston caliper depending on the piston diameters/stroke, but you better check. Brembo's spec on the 4 piston caliper is clear enough.
Some of the feel Vs power issues are personal preference, but you can spend a lot of money sorting that out without a brake guy pointing you in the right direction.
Hopefully some specialist folk in these matters chime in.
Thanks Tony and Nate.
I do feel pretty confident in my riding experience to the point that I don't want to leave any braking power on the table if I don't *have* to. I don't wanna be doing endos every time I need to slow down in a hurry but I also wouldn't mind having a 1-2 finger brake at any speed.
I'm running a 16mm master with single rotor 2pad 4 piston with a stainless disc and random organic pads, but am going to the braketech iron and 4pad 4 piston once I order brake lines.
Here's some more info I've found when poking around initially.
http://www.vintagebrake.com/mastercylinder.htm (http://www.vintagebrake.com/mastercylinder.htm)
http://www.ducati-upnorth.com/tech/radialbrakes.php (http://www.ducati-upnorth.com/tech/radialbrakes.php)
Definitely downgrade the master cylinder size for single rotor, as you don't need as much force.
Like Tony says...
a large bore master will greatly reduce the feel. Your brakes might be like a light switch.
With a radial master you should be able to play with lever ratios to get both the power and feel.
A good friend used to run a single disc on a 750 Monster track bike...the thing would get so hot he couldn't keep rotors on it...of any brand.
Good articles thorn. They say it well. Cheers
Thanks Thorn.
If you're interested in my brand new Fren Tubo braided lines, lemme know. They are exactly 2" longer than the stock M750 lines, not sure if that'll work for you or not.
Can any of you guys tell me if these brackets:
http://motowheels.com/i-8518113-corse-dynamics-axial-caliper-adapters-65mm-to-40mm.html (http://motowheels.com/i-8518113-corse-dynamics-axial-caliper-adapters-65mm-to-40mm.html)
Combined with this caliper:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brembo-Front-40mm-Axial-Billet-2-Piece-P4-30-34-Caliper-Left-/261452977835 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brembo-Front-40mm-Axial-Billet-2-Piece-P4-30-34-Caliper-Left-/261452977835)
Will work with my S2R800 fork bottoms? afaik, all the Duc 65mm mounts are the same, whether they be Ohlins, Showa, or Marzocchi.
Bracket adapters kinda make me nervous for things like brakes, but oh well.
That's good to know about your friend with the single rotor, but I don't plan on flogging mine too bad. Some aggressive riding in the metroparks on the weekends here and there.
From the links it seems that's the adapter kit brackets to go from 65mm calipers to the 40mm Billet ones. You going twin or single in the end?
Quote from: koko64 on May 02, 2014, 07:51:23 AM
From the links it seems that's the adapter kit brackets to go from 65mm calipers to the 40mm Billet ones. You going twin or single in the end?
Leaning heavily toward a single caliper now.
why don't you try this one,
http://www.cyclebrakes.com/html/accossato.html (http://www.cyclebrakes.com/html/accossato.html)
http://www.cyclebrakes.com/AMAG027.jpg (http://www.cyclebrakes.com/AMAG027.jpg)
And, BTW, don't you have a twin rotor set up? with rotors, calipers and 65>40 adapters?
Why are you going down to a 40mm mount? I don't get the advantage of the caliper you posted so maybe I am missing something.
On master cylinders:
Bigger piston = less "leverage", firmer lever. Less braking power for a particular force at the lever.
Smaller piston = more leverage, softer lever. More braking power for a particular force at the lever.
Oddly enough, I've tried some of the combinations you're thinking about.
I've got a single 4-pad Brembo caliper on my M750, CP211 pads.
Originally running on a Brembo snowflake rotor, as that's what was on the bike.
Originally set up with a 16mm goldline master, as that's what I had in my spares box.
The lever felt like it was bolted to the bar.
Not much 'feel', and lever effort was higher than I wanted.
If you want it to feel like an 80's motorcycle, it'd be about right, at least as far as the lever effort to decel ratio is concerned.
Switched to a Brembo big-pivot 13mm master.
Lever feel is normal, but a bit softer than I like.
Lever effort is fine.
I'd like a firmer lever, if there were a 14mm Brembo big-pivot, I'd get one.
After I wore out the snowflake, I got an iron BrakeTech.
Feels like a bit more grip.
I've had no braking power problems with the single disc setup.
It *is* a 750, and I don't ride in the Swiss Alps, nor ride like a maniac.
Dunno what master would be appropriate for the 6-piston caliper, would need the piston diameter specs.
As far as an adapter and that billet Brembo 30/34.....
For that money you could get a pair of brand new Brembo 4-pads, a new line, and still have a Benjamin left over.
Another thing to keep in mind, the lever geometry is different between radial, small-pivot, and big-pivot.
That is, the leverage between your hand and the piston is different.
Regarding the lever geometry.
I took some measurements of the 3 styles of levers.
Not super-accurate, as not everyone has their fingers in the same spot, and there are differences between OEM and aftermarket levers.
I measured from the outboard side of my first finger to the lever pivot, dividing that by the distance from the lever pivot to pushrod pivot/socket center.
That would give an approximate ratio for the leverage a two-finger squeeze has over the piston.
Radial - - - - 5.67:1
Big-pivot - - 4.16:1
Small-pivot - 4.02:1
This explains my experience with the small-pivot master feeling a bit squishy compared to a same size piston small-pivot master, it's got more leverage.
Using the above leverage ratios, a 16mm piston small-pivot master will have about the same lever feel as a Radial with a 19mm piston.
ISR recommend a 17.5mm master for a pair of their 6 x 30mm piston'ed calipers and a 14mm for single set up.
http://www.isrbrakes.se/products/calipers/22-052.shtml (http://www.isrbrakes.se/products/calipers/22-052.shtml)
Quote from: Speeddog on May 02, 2014, 10:19:50 AM
...............
I've had no braking power problems with the single disc setup.
It *is* a 750, and I don't ride in the Swiss Alps, nor ride like a maniac.
, but I do [Dolph] and there's no way I'd go for a single disc - fast road riding or track [thumbsdown]
Quote from: Speeddog on May 02, 2014, 10:19:50 AM
As far as an adapter and that billet Brembo 30/34.....
For that money you could get a pair of brand new Brembo 4-pads, a new line, and still have a Benjamin left over.
The advantages I like are:
- Considerable weight savings
- Fully exposed Carrozzeria wheel [drool]
- With a solid billet caliper on the other side [drool]
I don't mind admitting that I care very much about the aesthetics of this bike. However, I do ride pretty aggressively at times, so that is something I'm going to need to keep in mind.
As this is a very experimental setup for me, and I really don't know what to expect, I want the adjustable pivot of the RCS system even more...but those Accossato masters are very tempting.
I would likely stick with the OE 4 pad Brembo on the left side, though and save my $ for other mods. That depends on if there's even a marginal performance benefit to the billet caliper.
I guess this thread could be retitled; "how to get the most power from a single rotor braking setup". Since that's what I'm after now...
So here's another query: How do you guys think a Brembo GP/Radial master + single 4 pad caliper/single 320mm floating Braketech Iron disc would fare vs small diameter coffin master + dual OE brembo 4 pots with dual snowflakes in terms of pure stopping power from a given distance at a given speed, with questions of "feel" "sensitivity" etc aside? About the same, better, or worse?
If, you already have a "2 caliper" master and 2 rotors but NO 4 pad calipers . . . then just get the 4 pad calipers . . . In my eyes, issue solved . . .
Now, if you install that RCS to the 2 piston calipers, you'll be doing endos like the guy who had them on his bike . . . and that guy had the 2 pad/4 piston Goldline calipers with the coffin master that came on his bike . . . even that was a great improvement
Just thinking out loud, sorry if I disturbed anyone's naptime . . .
Quote from: Darkmonster620 on May 02, 2014, 12:06:13 PM
If, you already have a "2 caliper" master and 2 rotors but NO 4 pad calipers . . . then just get the 4 pad calipers . . . In my eyes, issue solved . . .
Now, if you install that RCS to the 2 piston calipers, you'll be doing endos like the guy who had them on his bike . . . and that guy had the 2 pad/4 piston Goldline calipers with the coffin master that came on his bike . . . even that was a great improvement
Just thinking out loud, sorry if I disturbed anyone's naptime . . .
Don't have the rotors yet, and the masters are still brand new in the boxes, fully returnable...
Between a comment Tony made and mistakenly ordering the wrong lines, I'm back to square one with choosing my setup...and I'm really liking the idea of a single rotor if I can put it together to have formidable stopping power and not just good looks..
If you ride real hard and do track days I'm wondering if twin discs would be better (from Lars comment). If you are set on a single disc then maybe a single 4 pad Brembo or ISR 6 pot caliper would give enough bite. The disc and pads would have to be good to resist fading. It seems harder to get Brembo 4 pad caliper pads in organic to suit iron discs from what I've seen, but someone might know a supplier, so that could be a more economical option. For how you say you ride, maybe a 6 pot caliper on an iron disc.
For my peace of mind, if I was running one disc on a hard ridden bike I would want a pretty strong set up.
Speeddog and I ride like gentlemen on the street nowdays ;D.
I'm leaning heavily toward the billet 6 pot SIX pad!?! ISR caliper with their recommended billet 14mm master with integrated reservoir. Look at this thing...wow:
(http://www.power-barn.com/media/08/a20791b13641702c5b18ea_l.jpg)
Mated with a steel Braketech floater and Galfer green pads (if they make em' for this Caliper)
Nevermind, they have a radial master:
(http://www.power-barn.com/media/0a/a20791d142c455d9cc80b7_l.jpg)
[drool]
Personally, l think that 2 discs are overkill for most people most of the time. The last time I felt brake fade was riding switchbacks downhill on my '65 Triumph 500. If you look around a bit you will see some pretty aggressive hot bikes with one front disc. If you use good parts you should be just fine with one.
For Lars riding his fire-breathing 800 in the Swiss Alps, yes, a single disc would be a bad plan. ;D
I'd like to know how ISR defines their 'leverage' ratio, it'd help compare their master-to-caliper size recommendations with Brembo.
The above leverage ratio for a radial lever was using an OEM Duc lever, 848 IIRC.
They make a wide variety of piston diameter x offset masters, so the leverage will vary.
Your path is now clear it seems. ;D
I was going down this path with the isr stuff before. I talked to a few used to be retailers in the states and braketech. I found out that parts are near impossible, good ideas but the lever feel wasn't as good as brembo, and pad selection is very very limited. There's the pads by isr and maybe 1 type of ferodo. This sucked since I wanted to use a single breaktech iron or cmc rotor. I'm not trying to talk down your ideas it's something I've thought about.
Hadn't heard that of the lever feel but then again there aren't too many people running this setup so the sample pool is limited. The guys I buy my parts from said the same thing about them being difficult to work with as far as parts and support goes. They still can order the stuff but they dropped most of it from the website. They did say they loved the product though.
That's exactly what I'm considering, the single caliper and dish out the extra cash for a ceramic rotor since I'd only be buying one. That's all good feedback you're providing and I def need to keep that in mind.
$700 for a billet monoblock caliper is awfully tough to beat though even with those disadvantages in mind.
Confirm pad availability for that caliper on an exotic disc before you go too far down that road.
I was told abou the feel from bellissimoto. Randy said they tried the isr stuff on a few bikes and they were okay. Pita to get products so that's why stopped carrying them. Pro italia was another retailer.
After hearing all that, I would be a little nervous about the ISR stuff. I like good spares back up and easy to deal with suppliers. See what happens when you get old and fearful? ;D
Maybe to play it safe, go the full Beringer single disc kit, or maybe one 4 pad Brembo caliper on a fancy fully floating Brembo disc with the appropriate Brembo radial M/C?
Just when you think you're out, they pull you back in. [laugh]
4 pad Brembo with steel floater would save me quite a bit for other mods...that means more to me than pragmatic concerns like availability of spare parts. :P
Should brake pretty hard even with one disc, since the Brembo 4 pad caliper reputedly has the most bite of axial calipers. That extra bite would be useful with a single disc application. A fully floating Brembo stainless race style disc could work. That deals with the pad issues. Then just swap the M/C and you're in business. You're then dealing with well known and understood parts with plenty of advice available.
Pity about the ISR parts. They had a certain look.
Can't argue with saving money for other mods.
That's why I so pumped about the isr stuff also. Crazy big calipers, smart design with the integrated masters. But some of the prices were not that far off than all brembo stuff with the direction I'm going.
I still may go for it. That's a bad ass caliper man. I wish the integrated masters were radial though...it appears those are only axial.
I sacrificed some precious time out of my hectic schedule checking out Brembo HP 320mm/5.5mm fully floating discs. According to the Yoyodyne site, they work very well with with 4 pad calipers for which they were made. :)
Quote from: koko64 on May 05, 2014, 03:00:26 AM
I sacrificed some precious time out of my hectic schedule checking out Brembo HP 320mm/5.5mm fully floating discs. According to the Yoyodyne site, they work very well with with 4 pad calipers for which they were made. :)
I just missed out on a pair of 3500 mile 749 calipers for $290 because of my damn waffling on this issue. Now I feel obligated to buy the ISR. ;)
Power Barn seems to have everything ISR related in stock.
A comment Chris Kelley once made has always stuck with me, it was something along the lines of; "it would be a crime to buy any other rotor than Braketech". Not that his word is necessarily gospel but aside from this forum he's pretty much always been my "Ducati Totum" since I got into Ducs 6 years ago, lol.
What about using a 6 piston radial caliper off of a japanese bike? You would have to swap out fork lowers but it would open up your options. All of the showa 43mm forks I have compaired have all had the same threads on the fork slider. A bit of heat from a map gas torch & a band clamp & they will seperate and swap over.
Quote from: caperix on May 05, 2014, 08:12:19 AM
What about using a 6 piston radial caliper off of a japanese bike? You would have to swap out fork lowers but it would open up your options. All of the showa 43mm forks I have compaired have all had the same threads on the fork slider. A bit of heat from a map gas torch & a band clamp & they will seperate and swap over.
Kinda opens up an already festering wound there, which is my regret for not doing a GSXR fork swap to begin with as opposed to the Matris carts. Swapping bottoms is still a good idea, but I'm not sure that makes things any easier/more economical in the end, especially after figuring out a new front fender.
This is before I noticed the rear master cylinder... :-\ I'm going to call and maybe see if they're willing to deal a little bit. Something else that may or may mean anything to some people is the serious upgrade of the rear brake performance. I don't know if I can get used to having a serious rear brake though after 20 years of never having one.
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g234/247prophet/Capture_zps14072507.jpg~original) (http://s57.photobucket.com/user/247prophet/media/Capture_zps14072507.jpg.html)
I don't know if this will be of any use to you, butt I thought of you when I was reading this:
http://www.ducati-upnorth.com/tech/radialbrakes.php (http://www.ducati-upnorth.com/tech/radialbrakes.php)
Yeah I've read that numerous times on .ms and the other Monster forum. I specifically recall Chris Kelley kind of "going at it" with Shazzam, something along the lines of regardless of how technical this info is, switching to a radial GP pump from the OE axial was one of the best braking upgrades ever in terms of both feel and power.
That seems to be a common consensus among people who track their bikes regularly. It's why I'm still hesitant to return this RCS set for the ISR, given how much [bow_down] the RCS masters get.
But honestly, all of us with the exception of the SC, 620 and some of the 90's baby Monsters get awesome brakes as standard equipment. I don't think many of us really *need* to upgrade.
FWIW... much to my surprise, the least WOW factor upgrade I've done was the switch from 16mm coffin master to a StreetFighter radial master. Noticeable, but not WOW.
Much more important for me was:
1. going from modest stock S2R800 discs & calipers to 320 semifloating, 4 piston '996' calipers and 16mm coffin master.
2. going from stock'ish pads to Brembo sintered HH
3. going from semifloating 320 discs to 320 fullfloating
4. the above mentioned master upgrade
YMMV ;)
On a former build I put Brembo radial masters on and the bike had a simple 4 pot Nissin caliper. The Brembo unit was rated higher and suggested a dual caliper. What I had in return was more "leverage" so to speak in that it look less force to perform a stop. It took a minute to get used to but in nyc stop and go traffic it was quite comfortable.
The 19 with a single caliper *might be just fine. YMMV
Noticed that twin 4 pads calipers, custom braided lines, etc came up in the parts section. Looks a good deal.
Quote from: koko64 on May 07, 2014, 02:01:41 AM
Noticed that twin 4 pads calipers, custom braided lines, etc came up in the parts section. Looks a good deal.
Thanks for the heads up! I've sent him an email.
What I may just do is go with Brembo OE components and possibly upgrade next year.
My pleasure. ;D
Why do you have two clutch masters in your basket?
Quote from: dufukincati on May 07, 2014, 07:02:44 PM
Why do you have two clutch masters in your basket?
Twas an accident. I did think that seemed high.
I'm keeping these RCS masters I think. I'm starting to get really irritable...the lines I ordered came in, and aren't suitable for them. So the amount of $$ I'm flushing down the crapper is reaching absurd levels. Of course the vender won't take em back, because they're "custom", even though he ordered the wrong custom lines. Wah.
I'm a frugal bastard with a limited budget so the "fix it with cash" approach to things is only used in a time crunch. On one of my single caliper set-ups (sumo/ 2-pad Brembo) I used a spare 999/749 clutch master (radial 15mm) and simply flipped it and modified accordingly. Works fine for me but I don't recommend it. Easiest, cheapest route would be to use the Brembo front brake master off of a 2007-2012 R6 (16mm). I've also ran a single 4-pad caliper with the stock coffin master on my S2R with no complaints. One thing to note is that the dual 4-pad set up is not necessarily the best performing set-up in my opinion. With the stock pads and a coffin master, the initial bite was too aggressive for late braking and panic situations. A different pad compound may help remedy this, but there's a reason why most still use a 2-pad set-up. The theory behind this is called "wedging" which implies that the square leading edge of a pad gets pulled into the braking surface upon contact and compounds initial bite. this phenomenon is doubled with the 4-pad set-up. To help remedy this, I chamfer the leading edge of all of my pads, as well as the bottom edge, to help make wheel swaps a bit easier. Of course, with the single caliper set up and/or your riding style, the 4-pad may be perfect as is . [thumbsup]