[thumbsdown] I had bought an Alien Motion LifePo4 Iron Phosphate battery at the middle of last season. I also got a new MOSFET r/r. All was well.
Went today to a bbq at a local bike shop and after 3/4 of the way home everything shuts down. I pull over and smoke is pouring out from under the tank and a smell like I've never experienced before. Praying to the bike gods for no fire, the smoke eventually stopped and I pushed my bike home.
Got home and the battery was removed:
(http://i60.tinypic.com/2iurqqc.jpg)
So my first thought was the battery was defective. It happens. Emailed the company with pics. No response yet (past business hours) but technically its still covered by a warrantee. My next thought was that my r/r failed and stuffed my battery, thus making it overcharge and burst.
Removed the r/r and did the test with the multi meter. All checks out fine. Whew. Got scared because two of the yellow wires at the connectors had slightly charred stuff on the layers of shrink wrap/elec tape. (I do not use a big honkin' connector. Just a bunch of high quality disconnects)
Next I'm thinking about the alternator. Is that an unnecessary concern?
My wife says that any problem is an opportunity in disguise. Maybe this is an opportunity to push my lazy ass to do the rewiring for my cafe seat project.
Whoa!
Any damage to the bike?
I've heard of this happening, but much worse, so you may have got off lightly. I may be corrected, but from what I've read and heard some brands of Li batteries when subject to an extreme overcharge, can catch fire and even spew molten material all over your bike. My understanding is that some Li batteries like the Shorai batteries have a built in safety circuit/fuse which pops on extreme over charge, sacrificing the battery before a catastrophic failure.
I would give that regulator an extra check up.
Those expert in electrickery should pitch in soon.
Oh it spewed all right. Right down on my left case cover. Most of it will wash off but those are character marks right?
That was the only damage to the bike. I tested my R/R with the methods shown in this video: http://youtu.be/Q87JmhE5LVk (http://youtu.be/Q87JmhE5LVk)
Mine is not a Shindengen but the testing is the same I'm sure across various MOSFET brands.
I'm just hoping Alien Motion will refund some of my money (ideal situation).
I've heard Ballistic has had some of the same issues. Too bad. These batteries are very small and light. I really dont wanna go back to a behemoth like the 14lb. Odyssey.
Did it come out as a viscous gel or liquid? It was described to me once as lava like.
Have you washed the cases yet?
Cases have been cleaned and the liquid that came out was thinner. Not lava like.
Glad none got on you. That was close.
If the regulator fails those tests it is definitely bad Passing only means it is probably good. Before assuming the charging rate is good test on the bike with a known good battery, 13.5 to 14.4 volts at 3K RPM. A serious short to ground could be the cause, but I doubt it since you made it home. Your alternator did dot cause the failure. Overcharging is prevented by the regulator.
Quote from: howie on May 18, 2014, 03:38:31 PM
If the regulator fails those tests it is definitely bad Passing only means it is probably good. Before assuming the charging rate is good test on the bike with a known good battery, 13.5 to 14.4 volts at 3K RPM. A serious short to ground could be the cause, but I doubt it since you made it home. Your alternator did dot cause the failure. Overcharging is prevented by the regulator.
Tested the rr twice. It passed both times. Alternator checks out too. Not that it matters.
Why couldn't I have made it home if I had a serious short to ground? I don't understand.
Upon inspecting the yellow wires and their disconnects, there were no melted wires and a couple of the disconnects had an annealed look to them. Wire strands underneath insulation was perfect.
I do have an odyssey battery that at rest tested 12.6 IIRC.
*if the rr checks out and shows to be operating properly, is the failure assumption just a bad cell? Overheated from hard use+engine proximity?
I'd throw in the Odyssey battery and see what Voltage the RR throws at it at various revs for sure. That's where Howie was heading.
No doubt!
I've got the trickle charger on the Odyssey. Testing under load as Howie had presented will be done this week. [beer]
The short would need to be in a section of wire that was not protected by a fuse and the wire would need to be large enough to conduct amperage quick enough to almost instantly drain the battery without the wire burning up. Could it just be a defective battery? I don't know enough about lithium batteries to know if this could happen, but I have heard of lap top batteries going up in flames.
Quote from: howie on May 18, 2014, 07:14:46 PM
The short would need to be in a section of wire that was not protected by a fuse and the wire would need to be large enough to conduct amperage quick enough to almost instantly drain the battery without the wire burning up. Could it just be a defective battery? I don't know enough about lithium batteries to know if this could happen, but I have heard of lap top batteries going up in flames.
Not claiming to be a lithium battery expert, but the lap top batteries and the auto/MC lithiums are not the same formulation.
I was used to lithiums from the RC hobby and knew about their hazards and had also also assumed that the Shorais, Balistics, etc. were the same. It took a bit of reading for me to learn the difference and have now been using one for close to four years. One thing that the manufacturers caution is not to use a charger with a maintenance mode and not to use a trickle charger unless monitored real time for rate and duration.
Quote from: oldndumb on May 18, 2014, 07:55:46 PM
Not claiming to be a lithium battery expert, but the lap top batteries and the auto/MC lithiums are not the same formulation.
I was used to lithiums from the RC hobby and knew about their hazards and had also also assumed that the Shorais, Balistics, etc. were the same. It took a bit of reading for me to learn the difference and have now been using one for close to four years. One thing that the manufacturers caution is not to use a charger with a maintenance mode and not to use a trickle charger unless monitored real time for rate and duration.
Partial thread jack, but here goes anyway. You may not be an expert on lithium batteries, but evidently you know more than me. Yes, I am aware the lithium ion battery in my lap top is not the same as an automotive lithium ferrous battery. I am also aware of the charging precautions and state of charge voltages. Beyond that nothing.
I don't know if you can answer these questions, but here goes:
What actually burns on the laptop batteries? Case? Lithium? Other materials?
Was the cause of the fire overcharging or an internal defect?
My computer guy sold me a $10 fan stand for the laptop which cools the underside of it. He cautioned against heat saturation causing hard drive failure and battery fires, since unlike PCs laptops generally don't have cooling fans.
From the pic looks like it burn't through from the inside as the liquid superheated. The contents got hot enough to get through the case from the "exit wounds".
Since getting the LFP battery I never charged it. Never needed to.
My intuition says it was battery failure internally. Maybe an 8 cell was too small? A rep from the company told me that 8 would be fine. Perhaps I needed a 12 cell. But I only have standard lights (LED headlight) and an in-tank fuel pump.
Its a mystery about what caused the LFP batt to fail internally. Hopefully the company will stand up and do the right thing...
Ps- my laptop has an internal cooling fan.
My laptop's old, fan's are probably standard now. ;D
Good luck with the warranty deal.
Mine has a fan. It still gets hotter than comfortable on your lap.
Quote from: howie on May 19, 2014, 04:57:13 AM
Mine has a fan. It still gets hotter than comfortable on your lap.
Yes, "laptop" is an erroneous term. It should never be used on ones lap. Way too much heat insulation.
------------
Got a call from a sales rep from Alien Motion. She was nice and accommodating. She said the technology does not really allow for that kind of failure and usually its due to a failed R/R. My case seems unusual because my R/R checks out. So its being sent back for analysis. A tech from the company is calling me later today to further discuss things.
Lack of electrical knowledge is one of my many failings therefore I usually fallback to the interweb. A site I found a while ago seems to be the most authoritative. that is probably because it is not a battery mfg site. The author is the inventor of the Cadex line of battery monitors and equipment. Speaking for myself, it has enough info to make my eyes roll back in my head, but most answers are in there if one has the patience and time to read it.
http://batteryuniversity.com/ (http://batteryuniversity.com/)
http://www.cadex.com/en (http://www.cadex.com/en)
BTW, laptops were designed to ensure sterility of those using them for extended periods. ;)
As usual with most forum anecdotal posts the reader needs to beware, but I remember a post in which Alien batteries were discussed as a cheaper alternative to Ballistics. I went with a Shorai solely because a team owner friend had switched to them and helped me out with a discount. Just an uninformed selection which luckily has worked out.
memper,
I believe the method you used to test your R/R only verifies the integrity of the unit and is not an operational test. I understand you can't run an op test with your Alien, but I suggest installing another battery and running the operational test. Just remember, you need a good battery in the system to do a correct test. I read Alien's response and am guessing it is based on whatever internal protection scheme their design utilizes. The fact that they are communicating with you is a positive....no pun intended. :)
Quote from: oldndumb on May 19, 2014, 10:13:22 AM
Lack of electrical knowledge is one of my many failings therefore I usually fallback to the interweb. A site I found a while ago seems to be the most authoritative. that is probably because it is not a battery mfg site. The author is the inventor of the Cadex line of battery monitors and equipment. Speaking for myself, it has enough info to make my eyes roll back in my head, but most answers are in there if one has the patience and time to read it.
http://batteryuniversity.com/ (http://batteryuniversity.com/)
http://www.cadex.com/en (http://www.cadex.com/en)
BTW, laptops were designed to ensure sterility of those using them for extended periods. ;)
As usual with most forum anecdotal posts the reader needs to beware, but I remember a post in which Alien batteries were discussed as a cheaper alternative to Ballistics. I went with a Shorai solely because a team owner friend had switched to them and helped me out with a discount. Just an uninformed selection which luckily has worked out.
memper,
I believe the method you used to test your R/R only verifies the integrity of the unit and is not an operational test. I understand you can't run an op test with your Alien, but I suggest installing another battery and running the operational test. Just remember, you need a good battery in the system to do a correct test. I read Alien's response and am guessing it is based on whatever internal protection scheme their design utilizes. The fact that they are communicating with you is a positive....no pun intended. :)
Those sites are a headful of info and then some....weird the first one doesn't touch on Lithium Ferrous batteries just Lithium Ion.
The Odyssey is charged up and holding at 13.2v. Tomorrow it will be used for testing under load. Thanks for the literature!
You have to read more than you want to to find the sections pertaining to Lithium Ferrous because he refers to them as LiFePO4. The article is thorough but more oriented toward theory rather than practical application. Told you it was a yawner. :)
Several postings on many forums as to how to check charging system, including at least one on this site from a Duc expert.
The author of this post is a friend and my go to resource for all things electrical/electronic. I believe his posts were the templates for several enterprising R/R retrofit online entrepreneurs. It has grown into a long thread but everything you need to know is at the beginning. Don't let the title throw you because it includes the testing procedure as well as how to swap to a MosFet unit for those without one.
http://www.triumphrat.net/speed-triple-forum/104504-charging-system-diagnostics-rectifier-regulator-upgrade.html (http://www.triumphrat.net/speed-triple-forum/104504-charging-system-diagnostics-rectifier-regulator-upgrade.html)
Quote from: oldndumb on May 19, 2014, 02:36:30 PM
You have to read more than you want to to find the sections pertaining to Lithium Ferrous because he refers to them as LiFePO4. The article is thorough but more oriented toward theory rather than practical application. Told you it was a yawner. :)
Several postings on many forums as to how to check charging system, including at least one on this site from a Duc expert.
The author of this post is a friend and my go to resource for all things electrical/electronic. I believe his posts were the templates for several enterprising R/R retrofit online entrepreneurs. It has grown into a long thread but everything you need to know is at the beginning. Don't let the title throw you because it includes the testing procedure as well as how to swap to a MosFet unit for those without one.
http://www.triumphrat.net/speed-triple-forum/104504-charging-system-diagnostics-rectifier-regulator-upgrade.html (http://www.triumphrat.net/speed-triple-forum/104504-charging-system-diagnostics-rectifier-regulator-upgrade.html)
Thanks for the link on the batteries. Lots of food for thought.
Odyssey battery was no go. Had no capacity left. Got a loaner I'm gonna try for tomorrow.
A tech from Alien Motion contacted me. They said they'd replace the battery and cover 75% of the cost. So I pay $30 plus shipping. I think if my RR checks out that they should pay the full amount. We'll see....
At least they are talking to you. Hopefully, that is a good sign.
Quote from: memper on May 17, 2014, 07:44:30 PMOh it spewed all right. Right down on my left case cover. Most of it will wash off but those are character marks right?
You're lucky. This is how my VR/Battery overheating/CDI meltdown ended up on Monday.
http://youtu.be/Hpds2UkLusw
http://youtu.be/lSN2Bcq2IPc (http://youtu.be/lSN2Bcq2IPc)
Thank god it wasn't the Monster. But I'll tell you what, I'm never going anywhere without a small fire extinguisher again. One the size of coke can would have averted this disaster.
Holy crap!
dlearl,
WOW. Sorry for your loss (RIP). Glad it wasn't the Monster.
Wow. Sorry to see that.
That is bad. Sorry.
worst threadjack ever...
I 'spose it shows what could theoretically happen.
Any luck with the vendor on 100% refund/replacement?
Quote from: dlearl476 on May 21, 2014, 07:47:49 AM
You're lucky. This is how my VR/Battery overheating/CDI meltdown ended up on Monday.
http://youtu.be/Hpds2UkLusw (http://youtu.be/Hpds2UkLusw)
http://youtu.be/lSN2Bcq2IPc (http://youtu.be/lSN2Bcq2IPc)
Thank god it wasn't the Monster. But I'll tell you what, I'm never going anywhere without a small fire extinguisher again. One the size of coke can would have averted this disaster.
Good grief!
I suppose he could send the batt remains to the vendor for a warranty adjustment? ;)
I think if it had been me, I would have shoved it into that lake next to the road before attempting YouTube fame. [evil]
Quote from: dlearl476 on May 21, 2014, 07:47:49 AM
You're lucky. This is how my VR/Battery overheating/CDI meltdown ended up on Monday.
http://youtu.be/Hpds2UkLusw (http://youtu.be/Hpds2UkLusw)
http://youtu.be/lSN2Bcq2IPc (http://youtu.be/lSN2Bcq2IPc)
Thank god it wasn't the Monster. But I'll tell you what, I'm never going anywhere without a small fire extinguisher again. One the size of coke can would have averted this disaster.
Damn... one hell of a threadjack you got there.