I just went to start my bike and there was no power, nothing at all happened when I turned the key. I'm guessing that I have a flat battery, confirmed by the indicators on my charger box, when I attached it. I'm a bit concerned as I very recently upgraded to a Shorai lithium battery and have only left the bike parked for a week or so, at the most. My old lead battery used to cope with 6 week trips overseas and no issues saturating up afterwards (well, no more than the usual hesitancy in cold weather).
In terms of things draining the battery there are all the typical bits like the immobiliser. I also have a USB port that I was hoping to wire to a keyed source but hadn't got around to so is just running off the original SAE battery tender, wired in parallel to the positive and negative ports of the Shorai. The manufactures website says that it may drain milliamps when nothing is plugged in. Would that be enough to drain a lithium battery over two weeks? I have also added a SpeedHealer but I don't think it draws power when the bike is off. Am I wrong?
The battery is charging now, using the official Shorai charger. I will check the voltage when it is done. Should I be getting the bike's electronics checked or is this just due to my neglect in riding (I was ill then the weather has been awful)?
A Shorai battery should not do that. Either you have excessive drain on your battery, a poor connection or your battery is defective. Key off, ammeter in series or inductive lead, you should read less than 6 milliamps.
I agree with howie. One of the selling points on LIFePo batteries is that they have an extremely low discharge rate. I use them on my race bikes for this reason as well as for their lightness. How was the battery performing prior to this?
That's what I thought. Especially as the battery has been on charge for 11 hours and the charger is still flashing a low voltage warning and there isn't so much as a twinkle of life when i turn the key in the ignition.
Tomorrow I will lift the tank and have a look at the battery and connections. I have a multimeter, but am not too familiar with using it. I just attach the negative lead to the negative terminal and positive lead to the positive terminal of the battery. Is that right? Presumably I could then check the voltage, as well as the current. I guess a short is possible, but I have been riding it without trouble for weeks since I last touched anything electrical.
A defective battery is another option. I certainly haven't had the miraculous cure to cold starting issues that others have seen. I sometimes have to try three or four times to start the engine, just like the old lead battery and my previous monster. I thought that was just Italian bikes!
Quote from: StephenC on August 25, 2014, 06:38:29 AMI have a multimeter, but am not too familiar with using it. I just attach the negative lead to the negative terminal and positive lead to the positive terminal of the battery. Is that right?
I've just looked this up and it would appear I am wrong. It sound like I have to splice the multimeter into the positive side of the battery circuit, which is probably beyond me. I'll have a look tomorrow and see if there is a problem I can fix, otherwise it is a trip to the shop :(
Yes, basically that is how to check voltage using a VOM. However there are a few other steps before connecting the leads, such as range selection, lead connection points, etc. Suggest you Goggle how to use a VOM, or YouTube it.
IMO your options are to either contact Shorai for a warranty replacement or do a charge system check. However, a good battery is necessary for a system check. If you get in position to do a system check I suggest this thread. Don't let the fact that it is a Triumph site throw you off because the electrons do not know the difference. The author is a highly respected electrical and electronic guru.
http://www.triumphrat.net/speed-triple-forum/104504-charging-system-diagnostics-rectifier-regulator-upgrade.html (http://www.triumphrat.net/speed-triple-forum/104504-charging-system-diagnostics-rectifier-regulator-upgrade.html)
Don't know if you read Shorai's troubleshooting info, or if the following is in their charger instructions.
A. When using the Shorai Charger on a deeply discharged battery it is typical for the yellow and green lights to alternate back and forth if the battery voltage is less than 50% (13.1V). It may take several hours to recharge, however you can speed up the recharge process by pressing the charge button periodically and/or disconnecting and reconnecting for the charger to resample the voltage level. Once the voltage gets above 13.1V the charger will work in the normal charge mode(flashing green light). In the charge mode it will deliver the full 2A charge rate and typically finish charging in less than a hour. If you can not recover the battery return it to shorai for us to recondition and test it.
Quote from: StephenC on August 25, 2014, 07:06:12 AM
I've just looked this up and it would appear I am wrong. It sound like I have to splice the multimeter into the positive side of the battery circuit, which is probably beyond me. I'll have a look tomorrow and see if there is a problem I can fix, otherwise it is a trip to the shop :(
Your lookup fubu provides selective responses. In other words, you need to ask the appropriate question. You need to lookup how to check DC voltage using a VOM
Or hang for awhile and I'll bet someone will provide a link.
Positive on the meter to positive on the battery and negative on the meter to negative on the battery will read voltage across the battery, state of charge. To measure a parasitic draw (drain) need to hook an ammeter in series, in other words, disconnect a battery terminal and attach your leads to each end in the direction of current flow. Get it wrong? No problem. The number will be correct, but not the signThis can be done at the positive or negative. If you have an ammeter with an inductive probe, no disconnecting needed. Do keep in mind you never want to disconnect or connect positive while negative is connected. Also, pointless with a dead battery.
Thanks for all the helpful info. I'll get to work in a while. I'm guessing that this could have been caused by a short on any, non-switched, circuit. Or a dud battery.
B*** hell - they sure do make the battery hard to get at! Lucky I have a nearly empty tank.
So... No obvious short circuit, loose connection or damage (the positive terminal of the battery is a little bent but intact). With everything in situ the multimeter reads 1.97V across the terminals. With my USB cable attached (to the battery via the old SAE connection) drain is 1.85mA and with that removed 1.65mA.
I have removed the battery and checked the voltage on the desk (i.e. not in the bike) and it is 2.37V. I'm in the process of charging it (with the Shorai charger and detached from the bike). Whilst I am still getting the alternative orange and green flashing lights my multimeter is reading increasing values across the terminals (9.xV last time I checked). I don't know if this is a fair reading when attached to the mains!
I'm guessing that if the battery doesn't hold it's charge now, the problem is the battery. If it does then the problem is a short circuit somewhere on the bike. Any hints how I go about tracking that down? The wiring I have fiddled with is the USB port (which I might just leave off for now, as I don't use it much), a SpeedHealer (would this even draw from the battery?) and LED indicators. I have had a quick look at the latter and the wiring seems intact, but I'll confess I'm not currently in the mood to remove the headlight and tail to look closely.
Once again, than you for all your help.
The battery has been charging for 6 hours now and the lights on the charger are still alternating between orange and green. I have been periodically pressing the charge button as suggested. Using the multimeter the voltage across the terminals is now 11.85V but has been around this for quite a while now. I tried the battery back in the bike and at least got some life on the dashboard. The bike computer showed the voltage at 11.1V. When I tried to start the engine it, predictably, spluttered to death and an error message (which I forgot to write down) appeared on the dashboard. The battery is still being charged.
I'm guessing that means a dud battery? I have left a message with Shorai but may have left it too late in the day.
I just got off the phone with the Shorai people (who were wonderfully friendly). Just as I was complaining that it didn't seem to be charging the orange light stopped charging and now it is just the green one. Sure enough, the voltage is now 13V. I'm not sure how long it will take to fully charge.
I'll let it charge fully and then sling it back in the bike and see what the draw is (multimeter contacts from negative terminal to the disconnected negative lead).
So, the info I posted 7 posts above, in italics, is consistent with what they told you?
Did they have any comment re the battery capacity after the rescue charge?
How long did it take to get from flat to full charge?
Quote from: oldndumb on August 26, 2014, 07:47:54 AM
So, the info I posted 7 posts above, in italics, is consistent with what they told you?
Did they have any comment re the battery capacity after the rescue charge?
How long did it take to get from flat to full charge?
We probably didn't go into that much detail on the phone. They were friendly and confident in their product and felt it was likely a fault with the bike. Talking to them I did recall leaving the parking light on once, but the bike had restarted fine after that and been ridden since, so I don't know if that could be the reason. I only have a short commute so maybe never fully recharged the battery.
As I was talking to them I was fiddling with the battery and did disconnect and reconnect to the charger. A short while afterwards it went into 'charge' mode - the voltage was around the 13.1 they quoted. That took about 7 hours and it was about another 5 hours before the charger said it was done. I measured the end voltage at 14.3V but (leaving the battery connected to nothing but the Shorai charging cable - the one supposed to be left attached) an hour later it had dropped to 13.3V. According to the Shorai website this represents 90% charge. I have left it, on the desk, overnight and the voltage is still 13.3V.
I'm eager to get the bike up and running (if only as it is currently in pieces across my wife's side of the garage so her car is out in the rain!) so will probably reinstall the battery in the bike today and run some of the checks mentioned in your post above (some of them are probably beyond my skill - I only discovered where the Stator and RR were through researching it yesterday. I will put it in and check the current draw with the bike off, ignition on and then the engine running (assuming it starts!). I may or may not feel capable of doing the charging circuit checks. I may just run the bike and if it dies again get a proper bike electrician to sort out the gremlins! I did check the wiring I have fiddled with and it all seems intact.
Wish me luck!
Sounds as though you are more capable than you think you are. Just go slow, always think about polarity and double check that you are not crossing it. And always ask questions when unsure.
If you do need to do a thorough check using the link I gave, and are confused at any step, go ahead and PM the author on that site. He has the patience of Job. I had a problem on another bike and he suggested I call him so we could work through it real time. We were probably on the phone for an hour or so, and he saved me big bucks because I was ready to bin a stator. He also determined that a new RR I was using was actually kaput.
BTW, best practice when working on DC is to remove rings and watches. Anybody disagrees with that hasn't worked on DC long enough. ;)
Thanks for the encouragement.
I've put the battery back in and checked the voltage: 13.3V, turned on the ignition: 12.9V and started the bike (!): 13.5V. All within expected parameters. I tried to measure the drain but don't seem to get a reading when I put the multimeter in series across the negative terminal and the negative cable. It only comes with prong connections, not crocodile clips, so maybe I'm not getting a good enough connection.
I'll leave the bike off for a few hours and check the voltage again. I think I'll leave complicated diagnostics for the second time it fails. And if it doesn't, I'll be happy and enjoy my bike.
Quote from: oldndumb on August 26, 2014, 03:48:55 PM
<snip>
BTW, best practice when working on DC is to remove rings and watches. Anybody disagrees with that hasn't worked on DC long enough. ;)
...and everyone that has has a story. ;)
How accurate is the 'BATT' status on the dashboard? I've put the battery back in and am planning on letting the bike sit for a week (I'll slum it and drive to work). I had been checking the voltage with a multimeter using the extra SAE connector I had wired to the battery (for the USB charger), but as I suspect this is the weak point in my electrics have removed it. Now I can only check the battery manually by removing the fuel tank, which is rather a pain. I know that by turning the ignition on to get the dash lit I am introducing more load to the system, but I should still be able to see a drop in the voltage over time? I will try and avoid firing the engine, as this presumably stresses the battery lots, unless I the ride to recharge it.
i don't understand how the SAE connector would cause any drain. it's just a piece of wire. it doesn't have any circuitry, no?
my suggestion is to take the battery out of the bike. do a bench test. measure the voltage twice daily for 3-4 days. this would be your no-load base test.
then you can attach the SAE connector and repeat to see if that is causing any more drop.
then put them back in the bike and retest (with a multi-meter).
FYI, the LiFe(PO4) has a max charge of 3.6V per cell (14.4 total), with a resting voltage of ~ 3.3xxV (13.3 total). this means that the voltage should drop fairly quickly from 14.4 and settle to somewhere around 13.3, which shorai claims to be 90% capacity.
here's a visual representation from my own testing (on the bike) for a couple days:
(http://i61.tinypic.com/2le47wl.jpg)
at the end (49H 22M) i measured 13.38V and calculated a drop rate of .002 V/hour. i imagine that rate would get even lower over time.
anyway, i say 13.3+ = excellent
don't use the dashboard to gauge the voltage for this test.
the accuracy doesn't entirely matter. if there's any inaccuracy, it should be linear and spread over all the readings. you wouldn't care about the absolute voltages, only the relative drop.
however every time you turn the IGN on, the fuel pump runs for a variable time (620 manual states 3-5 seconds). then there's the headlite; both significant drains. you'd also have to time how long the IGN stays on and keep it equal across all measurements. it's just not worth the hassle IMO.
Bagodoosh is correct about the SAE connector, it does not consume current. The only possible issue you could have is a lower reading at the connector than at the battery if you have a poor connection. Do keep in mind, your voltage reading represents state of charge. I have never seen a battery capacity test for a Li Fe battery, so no advice there but if they become more than half discharged there is a high possibility of early battery death.
Thank you for the information (and safety warnings!). As it is so much effort to get to the battery I will leave it in the bike for now (and have already removed the SAE connector, as I barely ever used it anyway). I'll let the bike site for a few days and when I next have time (and room in the garage) I will dissect it again and check the battery. If it doesn't seem to be draining then I'll probably just get on with riding it. Otherwise I'll rescue the battery and do the check out of the bike again, just be more patient (I only left it one day before).
I didn't do as frequent checks as you Bagodoosh, but I'm guessing my graph would look very similar. I got an initial charge of 14V and it quickly fell to 13ish and stayed there.
UPDATE
The battery has been sitting, plumbed into the bike, for just under a week now. I have resisted the urge to turn her on. Today I lifted the tank and checked the battery: 13.3V off the bike, 13.3V attached and checked via the SAE (after reading the advice above I decided to put it back in).
I'm not sure what drained my battery but I'm going to work on the assumption it was a one off and just get on with enjoying the bike (when the weather stops being foul!). If I have another problem, I will worry about it then.
Thanks again, for all the help.
Well, it has happened again. I left the bike for almost exactly one week and now have a flat battery. It did give me a few attempts at a start this time and then got to the point where the dash went blank. The voltage across the terminals, when I removed the battery, was very low. After 24 hours of charging it is back up to 13V and has held that overnight. I'm taking the bike to a mechanic (the excellent Andy at Whitebridge Sportcycles) tomorrow to get the electronics checked - assuming that I can get the bike started to get it there! If he thinks the battery is to blame (either solely or as it is damaged by whatever else whet wrong) should I stick with Shorai or move to a different brand?
is the weather getting cold at night where you live??
Yes, last night. But it's Australian Spring so that is relative. I doubt it drops below 10 degrees in our garage ... ever.
Bike is at the workshop. So I'll see what they think in a few days
I had trouble with 45 F and below temps, its a known issue
I'd be surprised if we were hitting that. Besides, it worked fine all winter and then plays up in the spring!
well maybe, also once you "flatten" one of these you have issues from there on out, I revived mine and it did work for awhile but in the end I went back to a regular battery and havent looked back
I am wondering that. I believe you are not supposed to let them drain.
Yes, every time a battery discharges it is a little closer to death. An AMG more so than a wet, LiFePO4 even more. Fact is a resting voltage at 12.866 or less can be fatal. AFAIK, your battery needs to go back to Shorai for testing as there is no field test presently. http://shoraipower.com/lfxcheck (http://shoraipower.com/lfxcheck)
The mechanic thinks the problem is the battery. He has had the bike for a week and reckons the RR is charging the battery OK (I think based upon the fact that the voltage goes up when the engine is running).
If I can get the bike charged up enough to get it home, should I plan on replacing the Shorai or moving onto a different brand?
My preference is the AGM battery your bike came with unless your bike is a track bike or occasional canyon carver.
Any particular reason? I was led to believe the Lithium battery would last longer and be less temperamental at starting the bike (assuming mine is a bad battery). It is certainly a lot lighter. I don't do track days. In fact, I mainly commute 15km to work and back.
The bike is being recharged. If I can get it home I was planning on doing a final test at home and fully charging the battery and then testing it daily, out of the bike, for a week. Shorai seem happy to have it back for testing and it is possible it will be replaced under warranty. Otherwise I would certainly consider other brands.
Reason being the high voltage needed to be maintained by the bike charging system and the likely possibility that charging system failures or even leaving the parking light on is likely to result in needing a new battery. Last longer? My last AGM was still starting the bike at seven years old. Just figured it was time to replace it.
Fair enough. If I' month looking likely to get a free battery, under warranty, I'll look into this. Thanks
Quote from: howie on October 24, 2014, 01:18:19 AM
Reason being the high voltage needed to be maintained by the bike charging system and the likely possibility that charging system failures or even leaving the parking light on is likely to result in needing a new battery. Last longer? My last AGM was still starting the bike at seven years old. Just figured it was time to replace it.
+1 on that, I went back to a regular battery and kick myself in the ass over the money I wasted
Advice taken. I'm getting an AGM put in (or I will put it in, if the LiIon is capable of getting the bike home). The question is weather I try my like with Shorai at getting a refund or just clock it up to experience!