Ducati Monster Forum

Finally, the big comparo that everyone's been waiting for (a hush falls over the room)....

Okay, so I may be exaggerating a little.  [roll]

Having never ridden a Harley before, I was feeling deprived and decided to do something about it. So, just for the fun of it, I rode out to the local Harley shop for a test ride.

Surveying the mass of gleaming machinery, I decided that the Sportster was closest to the Monster, so that would be the best place to start. The friendly dealer had a 1200 and an 883 sitting side by side. After he pointed-out the forward controls on the 1200, I decided that the 883, with it's traditional foot peg location, right in the middle, would be closer to what I'm used to.

Now I know that there are many Harley guys on the Forum, and this in no way is meant to provoke or disrespect either rider or machine.

But....

It was like comparing a thoroughbred Ferrari to a farm tractor. The 883 has no power, no throttle response, and (to my utter amazement) not even any torque. And it's so stuffed-up from the factory that it doesn't even sound good. But my biggest problem was the location of the foot pegs. Anyone used to rearsets is not going to like the middle-set location They're always in the way. I feared a drop was in the cards before I finished the ride, because every time I slowed for a stop, I couldn't get my feet down past the foot-peg blockade.

This surely must be an acquired skill....

Next time I'll try a Dyna or a Softail, but I was never so happy to get back on the Monster, a machine that talks to me.

I dont think this is a fair comparison given the engine size disparity and hugely different intent for the rider type.

Have a look here: http://www.motorcycle.com/shoot-outs/ducati-monster-1100-vs-harleydavidson-xr1200-review-87928.html (http://www.motorcycle.com/shoot-outs/ducati-monster-1100-vs-harleydavidson-xr1200-review-87928.html)

Any chance you can ride one of those and compare?

I don't think they make the XR1200 any more. I can't find it on their web site.

Yup, XR is dead and would have def been the Harley I would have looked at.  Too bad it too has a plastic tank.

El, rather than posting this again...  ;) http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=68707.msg1273303#msg1273303 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=68707.msg1273303#msg1273303)

For $.05, I'll take all the psychiatric help I can get!  :)

Eh, yeah, its a bit of apples to oranges there.  Or a Budweiser to a Paulaner Salvator, yeah, they're both lagers but only one you'd want to impregnate to make a beer/human hybrid.


Gotta give props to H-D for their eagerness to let you test ride, I've never had that with any other make.

I have both a Nightster and an 1100 EVO, both 2012.
Different rides. In the Nightster I put the SE slip on, and the V&H VO2 air cleaner. Stock exhaust sounds like a vacuum cleaner  [roll]
The 1100 EVO has a lot more power (more than the numbers tell), much better brakes, and it is more maneuverable.
That given, I think I will never sell my Nightster. I really like riding it.

I've ridden a Sportster 1200 and I can honestly say that it is a piece of crap.

I completely agree with your review.

Couldn't agree more. They were totally gracious and accommodating. You just survey the field of choices, point out the one you want, and they wheel it right out for you.

When I returned from the test ride, the first thing I said to the salesman was that the bike had no power. He replied, "Yea, I was afraid you would say that."  ;D

My brother has an xr1200, cool looking bike, but it's a paint shaker pile-o-poo

My local Ducati dealer is pretty liberal about test rides, they have a whole fleet of demo models and I have ridden a number of them over the years.

Same... I think HD and Ducati are the only brands that really allow a lot of test rides.  I remember seeing that in a study before.

I was looking at a Yamaha FZ6 a number of years ago and the dealership had a used one for sale, this bike looked like crap, it had rash on the engine cases on both sides, scratches on the plastics, cracked and broken pieces but I practically had to put a gun to their head to convince them to let me test ride this rolling piece of junk.  They asked me if I was going to buy it if I liked it.  I said, "hell no!" but I may buy a new one if I like it.  They were asking $5k for it... I wouldn't have paid $2k for that bike.

I have heard of some Ducati dealers being stingy about test rides and I did have a Yamaha dealer let me ride a used S4R they had in their showroom.  Depends on the dealer I guess.

The article I read about the Duc dealer network rating:

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/pied-piper-2014-prospect-satisfaction-index-results/ (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/pied-piper-2014-prospect-satisfaction-index-results/)

"Offering test rides: Recognition of the importance of test rides has driven many—but not all—motorcycle dealerships to figure out ways to overcome the challenges of offering test rides. The 2014 study showed that dealerships on average mentioned either immediate or future test rides 52% of the time, compared to only 36% of the time three years ago. However, there is much variation from brand to brand. Dealers selling five brands—Ducati, Can-Am, Harley-Davidson and BMW—mentioned test rides to more than 60% of their customers, while dealers selling Moto Guzzi, KTM, Yamaha, Suzuki and Honda mentioned test rides to less than 30% of their customers."

I was going to mention that I've never heard a test ride mentioned at my local Duc dealer but as it happens, I've never actually ridden my bike there, not so for the H-D dealer.

I'll have to see what changes when I show up on an actual motorcycle...

In my defense, they are relatively new in town, and in the same building as a Moto Museum and a killer bike-themed restaurant, so I normally take out-of-towners there in a car

883s are turds. Should have tried a 1200 as a minimum. But comparing a 1200 Sporty and a Monster is a true apple-to-orange scenario.

This thread reminds me that I need to get back on the hunt for a nice, clean Buell XB1200Ss for building a beast, now that they're cheap....

Sorry I did not chime in earlier, the XR1200 is a great machine IMHO, I've got about 80K miles on Monsters, I love my M900 and would never choose the XR over my M900. But I'll tell you that the XR puts as much of a grin on my face as the M900 does. I do have the upgraded suspension on it and the Vance and Hines exhaust but other than that it's pretty much stock and I'm quite happy with it. I've had no issues with it. The tank was replaced under warranty 2 years ago due to swelling but the new tank had not swelled, it's fine. IMHO the motor is very nice, gobs of never ending torque, dead smooth above 4k, and everyone should have at least one American bike in the garage. FWIW I rode an XLCR last year on a retro tour http://www.retrotours.com/ (http://www.retrotours.com/) On the 1st day everyone was trading with me, the bike was fun to ride, only 4 speeds and not a ton of power but still fun. You know you just don't have to have the kind of performance that my Diavel has, for example, for things to be fun. - Gene

My 16 horsepower Mustang Thoroughbred was my pride and joy.

Of course, I was 15 at the time.  :)

I had a 72 CB500, put over 100K miles on it too, before the Army shipped me overseas. But I'm looking for a 70' Honda CB100, my first bike. Ddid you see that they are making Mustangs again? http://www.californiascooterco.com/csc_factory_customs.htm (http://www.californiascooterco.com/csc_factory_customs.htm) - Gene

You are totally making my day!

I can't believe that the Mustang is reborn. Modern motor (the original was an industrial flat-head), but otherwise that's how I remember it. Bookmarking the website.  [thumbsup]

And major kudos for the 100K on your 72 CB500! I put 50K on my '72 before it started to fade. Didn't have enough $$ in those days for proper maintenance.  [Dolph]

It's an odd comparison, but a biased one too. I mean Ferrari and a tractor? Puhlease, Ferrari? We're talking a Duc, not an MV Augusta.

I might buy an Alpha and a Ram.

But really, they're fun in different ways. And the Sporty will run a 14 second quarter mile. Not fast by any sporting bike standards today, but still knocking on WRX speeds.

It is what it is, and it's not meant for racing.

Must depend on the region. I've never had a dealer turn down a test ride up here...Duc, Guzzi, Aprilia, Triumph, KTM, etc. Those brands constitute 5 different dealers.

My GF and I had ridden our Monsters to a local SoCal BMW dealer to sit on a touring bike.
Salesman offered a test ride within 2 minutes, didn't even have to hint at it, let alone ask.

Oops, yeah, I meant to reply to that too.

FWIW, when I started riding a couple decades ago about the only dealers who'd offer demo rides were BMW dealers and AFAIK they still do.

I think many Triumph dealers do too, and Victory. Though both brands (& Indian too) have roaming demo trucks so some dealers may defer to that.

I think with Aprilia and Guzzi it's highly dealer dependent, but always a possibility. I know Guzzi has had recent demo programs where participating dealers got a new model early if they agreed to make it available as a demo (Cali 1400 & V7 Stone or Racer).

The Harley demo thing started in the 90's when they had waiting lists. The Co gave participating dealers additional allocations of demo models that they had to agree to keep available a minimum length of time. I believe it included Buell too at one point. But it's evolved into a ride anything in the showroom policy (and it honestly worked on me once when the new rubbermount Sportster debuted in 04).

I have never ridden any Harley.

I've ridden one of my mate's Buell 1200 something-or-other....  I kinda liked it.

And I so want to agree with the OP's ride assessment.

And then along comes Kev M.... talking sense to spoil the fun  [bang] [laugh]

Have to agree with ya.  

Bugger  [laugh]

I test rode the XR1200X, and I was surprised that it did not feel very powerful compared to my M796.  It also wasn't as smooth as I had expected down low (it was my first time riding a Harley).  It was a disappointing experience.

Sorry man  [laugh]

I DO try to be slavishly devoted to the facts, but we all have our own biases.



Well, think about it.

796 - 76 hp / 51 torques - 418.5# wet - 11.97 1/4 mile

XR1200 - 79 hp / 68 torques - 580# wet - 12.25 1/4 mile

Though the smooth thing could be where in the powerband you were riding.

I dunno, the XR at that weight is just never going to be the nimble carver that your Monster is, but it CAN still be a blast to ride assuming "it's your bag baby".

As Eric Clapton said in the 80's "It's in the way that you use it".

 [drink]

It's funny, I still want an XRX, pretty badly. I had an opportunity to buy a new Denim White one about a year and a half ago and chose the Guzzi V7 Stone instead. I'm NOT disappointed as the V7 is better suited to my style of riding.

I THINK wanting the XR was the reason I stumbled upon and bought my Buell... but, as excellent a bike as it is, I'm toying with selling it and getting something else just because it's not me.

To be perfectly honest, as much as I enjoy the Duc, I'd probably never have bought it if Jenn didn't want it.

Just different strokes so to speak.

I do think though that allowing, or encouraging, test rides is at the sole discretion of the dealership. The manufacturer can encourage the dealer to offer test rides but I don't think it's part of the franchise agreement.

796 is 87 BHP / 58 ft.lbs. NOT your wife's 696.  ;)

And it's just not all about numbers, the numbers on my Diavel seem to blow away all the others in my garage. But they all perform quite well and in reality on a 2 lane country road my XR, M900 etc.. is just as much fun as the Diavel which has tons more power and better brakes. I like the feel of all the bikes, you just have to remember what bike you are riding and enjoy it for what it is. - Gene

Those are REAR WHEEL figures you silly old coot  [cheeky]  ;)


The 696 would be 68 hp then.


ABSOLUTELY... hey I get it, 9 out of 10 times I pull my V7 out of the garage, the LEAST powerful/slowest bike in our fleet.

Pic from the old garage (they don't line up as neatly in the new place):

(http://www.gigabikes.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10081/IMG_20131221_162109_855a.jpg)

My Garage http://www.diavel-forum.com/index.php?/topic/23481-garage-pics/page__st__20][url=http://www.diavel-forum.com/index.php?/topic/23481-garage-pics/page__st__20]http://www.diavel-forum.com/index.php?/topic/23481-garage-pics/page__st__20 (http://www.diavel-forum.com/index.php?/topic/23481-garage-pics/page__st__20)

 ;D

- Gene

Nice, mine's a work in progress and since the wife and I are considering adding a third bay eventually I'm not quite ready to exile one of the cars to the driveway yet in hopes that I'll continue to have room:

(http://www.gigabikes.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10081/IMG_20140825_154833_930a.jpg)
(http://www.gigabikes.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10081/IMG_20140922_084023_146a.jpg)
(http://www.gigabikes.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10081/IMG_20140923_130306_064a.jpg)
(http://www.gigabikes.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10081/IMG_20140923_151026_491a.jpg)

Although I resemble that remark..., where did you get these alledged RWHP and 1/4 mile times?  [roll]

While Ducati gives EC crank numbers these days, so does everybody else. Not real world numbers but comparable and from the EC certification paperwork.

Sorry, should have cited my reference. For such things I always go with Motorcycle Consumer News (MCN) unless otherwise stated.

I keep a spreadsheet on a lot of bikes in which I'm interested, and generally speaking the MCN Rear Wheel Numbers tend to fall inline with most other major mags, with the occasional anomaly.

To keep in in perspective here are a few more numbers from them


696 - 68 rwhp / 30 torques (other sources says 40-44 torques) - 408#wet - 12.21 1/4 mile

796 - 76 hp / 51 torques - 419# wet - 11.97 1/4 mile

XL883L - 48 hp / 48 torques - 567# wet - 14.60 1/4 mile

XL1200N - 57 hp / 64 torques - 564# wet - 13.21 1/4 mile

XR1200 - 79 hp / 68 torques - 580# wet - 12.25 1/4 mile

Where does the 1100 EVO fall?  [cheeky]

ha ha, off the f'n chart! ;)

So who does the MCN testing and what makes it consistent, meaning corrected for temps and barometric pressure? With the EC data you know it's accurate and there are BIG fines if it isn't. Tends to be on the low side in case some bikes are at the lower end of the manufacturer's spec. Some are hotter.  ;)

They do it themselves. And though not perfect like any their consistency with other magazine data seems to speak for itself and their lack of advertiser revenue speaks to lack of bias.

As for EU fines I've never heard of a single instance of such. Would you cite some references?

Not to mention, how would a testing body verify crank numbers? Buy a test bike, remove motor, place on test machine? Seems highly impractical and unlikely, which is probably why I can't think of a single instance it is regularly done.

Again, I'm not saying MCN is any sort of bible, but it's a reasonably consistent and reliable source of comparative data that I've been given no compelling reason to doubt en mass.

Hey. I got me a 48 a few weeks back. Torque is fine with the 1200 and the Sound

....and the sound could be better. No suspension and poor brakes compared to the monster but i like it anyway. It is completely different, everything is metal, everything sems outdated...but that is what makes it special. Give it another chance.
Klaus

Not intimately familiar with the EC protocols but know that they are very precise and exacting with repect to test procedures, weights and measures. Manufacturers submit vehicles for testing. The numbers have to match or else. Huge taxes are assessed on vehicles based on CO, etc. Couldn't tell you who got caught or who had to go back to the drawing board. The trade pubs might report this stuff. NOT anything consumers read unless a usual news channel breaks the story for some reason. They "could" but possibly don't consider it "news". I've been told by engineers that the EC is totally draconian.

It may shock you to learn that the USDOT and EPA maintain test facilities in Flint, MI and a couple of other locations with dynos and evaps sheds, etc. Every vehicle on the road in the U.S. has been through them. The "gummit" doesn't have to "buy" anything.  ;) Had to do a short cycle certification in Flint in 1998 on a vehicle and that took tree days. HUGE costs involved. It's in the price of everything with wheels you buy.

Some of my trade subs have not expired and I get 20 - 40 alerts / day on Newsmarket. Trade only. For exanmple, just this past week Benz got hit with a fine on two vehicles based on verified, published fuel mileage. Knowing the Schwabians, I doubt they departed from the specified test cycle and got their in-house testing wrong. No word yet on whether they'll contest the EPA findings. Given the costs associated with re-testing, it may be cheaper to pay up and move on.

Regardless, there is a level playing field in the EC for published numbers and they are consistent.  ;)

Hmmm, do EU publications not provide rwhp figures then? I've only seen a handful and don't recall, but I'd expect if they have such great, reliable,  crankshaft numbers then why would they bother?

Of course here in the US all we ever see (other than manufacturer supplied crank figures is rear wheel).

Anyway, I don't know anything about USDOT/EPA test facilities except what I've read on the .GOV websites which seem to explain that most manufacturers self test for the supplied EPA fuel ratings (and maybe I read that the government spot checks a certain amount).

But that's fuel mileage, and not HP.

Again, I've never heard of DOT or EPA even mentioning HP with regards to EPA certification. Never mind a manufacturer in the US being fined for claims regarding HP.

Besides, again, how would the EU or EPA arrive at the CRANKSHAFT numbers when testing assembled vehicles? Is there a reliable enough calculation for frictional drive train losses?

I dunno man, you're gonna have to explain this all to me better.

SAE, metric and DIN horsepower are measured at the crankshaft, standard accessories (items like alternator, power steering) on, somewhat different to each as are the correction factors.  Before 1973 SAE horsepower was gross, meaning no accessories.   Motorcycle Consumer News uses the typical DynoJet measuring at the rear wheel.  Automotive engineers use kilowatts as the power rating.  HP and PS are used in general chat and advertising.  

Manufacturers test and are checked by the feds.  I can't find it on the internet other than unofficial sources but manufacturers have been caught cheating on fuel economy, emissions and power, though not often.  Just remembered, I could have collected in a class action suit on my Lawn Boy.  They were caught cheating on horsepower rating along with some others.  My share wouln't have been worth the work.

I have no idea how the EPA dyno does it, but we had a chassis dyno back at school in the late 70's that did it by killing cylinders and somehow calculated the difference.  How was the calculation done and how accurate was it?  Maybe I knew then, but I have not a clue now.

Sure, but not here. You'll need to buy the  [beer]  ;D

Will do one of these days. 8)