Ducati Monster Forum

Moto Board => General Monster Forum => Topic started by: monzilla on October 03, 2014, 12:55:19 PM



Title: Monster 696 or Street Triple?
Post by: monzilla on October 03, 2014, 12:55:19 PM
Hey guys!

I'll be buying my first 300+ cc bike soon. I'm looking at used bikes only as I'm not exactly a pro. I have found 2 used bikes which were quite good - a 2013 696 monster and a 2013 Street Triple. Rode both today. Both felt amazing. Honestly though, i'm a little inclined towards the triumph, simply because of the cost and the noise. For some reason Ducatis sell at a premium here(almost $13K for brand new) and though I love them, I don't find the extra money I have to pay(the monster is about $1600 more than the Striple).

 Also, I felt that the Triumph was louder, which is important for me as car drivers tend to be a little rash here and don't see motorcycles much often. So louder is better so they know you're coming (I know this from personal experience. I tend to check my mirrors when I hear a motorcycle!). The servicing is a just a little bit higher for the ducati I think(don't mind that though).

My major concern is that the engine is liquid cooled in the Striple. I study in India and come home every 8-10 weeks only. Atmost my dad can do a weekly startup and maybe ride for 2-3 miles, as he doesn't like riding. Since the monster has an air-cooled engine, I thought it would be better suited for long intervals between startup. Will the liquid-cooled engine generate issues? Which bike do you think I should buy?   


Title: Re: Monster 696 or Street Triple?
Post by: DarkMonster620 on October 03, 2014, 04:33:41 PM
I have also ridden both, yes, I am a Ducatista, yes I am inclined towards the M696 and knowing that the M696 has ABS, has a nice torque band, very useful around town, specially with the OEM gearing . . . light and maneuverable, reach to the ground very good . ..  the Triumph felt somehow, "needy" for RPMs to be happy around town, brakes where good but, not sure of the feel they provided . . . reach to ground was OK although not 'flat footed'

Service wise, Ducati  has service every 12 000kms or once a year . . .

my 0.02


Title: Re: Monster 696 or Street Triple?
Post by: monzilla on October 03, 2014, 10:24:29 PM
So you recommend the Ducati?
What about stop start traffic riding? I've read that can be annoying with monsters, with many even referring them to "tractors". Most of my riding will be in stop start traffic.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Monster 696 or Street Triple?
Post by: Kev M on October 03, 2014, 11:31:34 PM

My major concern is that the engine is liquid cooled in the Striple. I study in India and come home every 8-10 weeks only. Atmost my dad can do a weekly startup and maybe ride for 2-3 miles, as he doesn't like riding. Since the monster has an air-cooled engine, I thought it would be better suited for long intervals between startup. Will the liquid-cooled engine generate issues? Which bike do you think I should buy?   

There is nothing about the difference in motors that would make one better suited between long startup intervals than the other.

Also, there is absolutely no benefit of starting and running a motor at idle periodically. Doing so causes more wear, pollutes the oil, doesn't keep the d fuel any fresher, and rarely charges the battery more than it drains. BUT IF one was to do that periodically, it's LESS DAMAGING to a water-cooled motor, which by design will at least come up to temperature faster.


Title: Re: Monster 696 or Street Triple?
Post by: thorn14 on October 04, 2014, 12:12:29 AM
I have no experience with the street triple, but I share a a garage with a speed triple. Great bike, wouldn't want to do the maintenance on it myself, but I'm cheap.

I'd be more worried about the battery above anything else.  A tender would be good enough in my book.

(But I ride at least once a week so Ihave no experience with what happens when bikes sit.)


Title: Re: Monster 696 or Street Triple?
Post by: monzilla on October 04, 2014, 02:53:02 AM
Yes, that's the main thing. My dad isn't exactly a rider now, he's past his motorbiking days. The premium on the ducati is too much here. Hence I'll be mostly buying the Striple.

Hopefully get a ducati when I start working in some other country.  [wine]


Title: Re: Monster 696 or Street Triple?
Post by: StephenC on October 04, 2014, 07:20:28 AM
The Street Triple is a great bike.  I doesn't have the character of a Monster but will do everything you ask of it, without issue.  For right or wrong, I prefer my Ducati (1100S) that occasionally decides to not start, for no reason I can discern.  My main motivations for moving back to a Monster were: character, air cooled engine with no ugly pipes or radiator, death rattle clutch, it's a Ducati (and I'm a snob)!


Title: Re: Monster 696 or Street Triple?
Post by: ab on October 04, 2014, 06:31:27 PM
I have a 620 monster and triumph speed triple.  Obviously they are different class of bikes that I have. My experience, the triumph is simply powerful and reliable.  But I still love my puny monster.


Title: Re: Monster 696 or Street Triple?
Post by: Curmudgeon on October 04, 2014, 08:53:40 PM
I prefer my Ducati (1100S) that occasionally decides to not start, for no reason I can discern.

Thread detour, if it doesn't catch the first time and your battery is in good shape, walk away from it for 5 minutes and then try again. This is an 1100S trick I read three years ago because my 796 does the same. 5 minutes (not 3  ;)) later and it catches. Happens on mine 50/50 if it sits more than 24 hours.

My theory, it's in the starting protocal in the standard tune Siemens ECU which shuts off fuel on a no-start and the box takes ~ 5 minutes to reset. Try it and see what happens...

Of course if you HAVE to get moving right away, If you keep cranking and even give it some throttle, it'll fire. No need to subject it to that abuse IMO unless it's your "getaway vehicle".  ;D


Title: Re: Re: Re: Monster 696 or Street Triple?
Post by: Kev M on October 04, 2014, 11:45:46 PM
Thread detour, if it doesn't catch the first time and your battery is in good shape, walk away from it for 5 minutes and then try again. This is an 1100S trick I read three years ago because my 796 does the same. 5 minutes (not 3  ;)) later and it catches. Happens on mine 50/50 if it sits more than 24 hours.

My theory, it's in the starting protocal in the standard tune Siemens ECU which shuts off fuel on a no-start and the box takes ~ 5 minutes to reset. Try it and see what happens...

Of course if you HAVE to get moving right away, If you keep cranking and even give it some throttle, it'll fire. No need to subject it to that abuse IMO unless it's your "getaway vehicle".  ;D
Interesting highjack.

In the what, going on four years we've had the 696 it occasionally (like less than half dozen times) has failed to start.

I mention it because it did it to us last week so it's fresh in my mind. When that happens repeated attempts make it sound like it's going to catch, and there is a smell of raw fuel like it's flooding.

Every time it's happened the only thing that worked was walking away and coming back. Additional throttle while cranking didn't help (neither a little or a lot).

<shrugs>


Title: Re: Monster 696 or Street Triple?
Post by: StephenC on October 05, 2014, 05:52:26 AM
I agree, throttle seems to make no difference. Switching the ignition off, counting to ten, cursing in six different languages and trying again works... mostly. Maybe it is just the time all that takes!  Battery is brand new. I think it happens more when the tank is closer to empty (not down to reserve empty) and definitely in the cold. I was disappointed when the Street a Triple just started, without fuss, every time!


Title: Re: Re: Re: Monster 696 or Street Triple?
Post by: Curmudgeon on October 05, 2014, 09:00:09 AM

In the what, going on four years we've had the 696 it occasionally (like less than half dozen times) has failed to start.

The 696 has a totally different starting procedure vs a 796 and 1100S. You have a "choke". The programing of the Siemens ECU must be rather different. That tip I use was found on an 1100S forum in 2011 when I first experienced the issue. So far, it always works. Pretty sure it's in the start protocol somewhere. My ECU checks out and has no stored errors.

As for the Street, my T-100 starts with the "choke" IF I have enough voltage. That ECU is too dumb NOT to start!  ;D With the 796, I'd guess the Euro 3 start mixture is just a hair too lean. 796's with a DP ECU fitted don't have the issue. Hint, hint...  8)


Title: Re: Monster 696 or Street Triple?
Post by: StephenC on October 05, 2014, 01:45:41 PM
This 1100S has the DP ECU (I think).  My old 1100S did not.  Both have the issue, on occasion.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Monster 696 or Street Triple?
Post by: Kev M on October 06, 2014, 09:22:07 AM
The 696 has a totally different starting procedure vs a 796 and 1100S. You have a "choke". The programing of the Siemens ECU must be rather different.

I've never bothered to dig into the manuals to see what the "choke" does.

I've not even bothered to see if there's an attached cable.

Is it a mechanical fast idle lever?

Is it a potentiometer to tell the ECU to enrichen the mixture?

I don't even know what the idle speed control mechanism is on these. Is there a stepper motor? I wouldn't think there would be a stepper motor if there's a mechanical fast idle lever.

I know the selling dealer salesman didn't know either but THOUGHT it was electronic and that the sequence was important. I.E. you had to actuate the lever AFTER you turned on the key and pressed the stop/run switch to the correct position or it wouldn't do it's job.

I've not ridden it enough to play with or question that.

But maybe it's time I do.



Title: Re: Monster 696 or Street Triple?
Post by: Curmudgeon on October 06, 2014, 09:45:35 AM
Read the owner's manual. The starting procedure is exclusive to 696 and I've heard it's important. No personal experience; only heard that owners had a lot of trouble starting if that procedure was not followed.


Title: Re: Monster 696 or Street Triple?
Post by: Kev M on October 06, 2014, 09:56:56 AM
Read the owner's manual. The starting procedure is exclusive to 696 and I've heard it's important. No personal experience; only heard that owners had a lot of trouble starting if that procedure was not followed.

Wow, maybe I'm reading you wrong today but I'm getting condescension here.

Anyway, YEAH, I read the manual like the first day we owned it thanks. Those questions I just proposed aren't answered.

Here's what it says:

Quote
Cold start control lever.
The choke control is used to favour the engine cold start and
increase the number of rpm at idle, after start-up.
Use the cold start lever while the engine is cold (1 or max. 2
T-oil bars with the engine on). The start lever is adjusted
during engine warm-up so as to guarantee approximately
1500 rpm at idle.
Operating positions of the control:
A) = control not active
B) = control fully active
The lever may be set also at intermediate positions in order
to follow the gradual warming up of the engine (see page 69).
Important
Do not use this device if the engine is warm. Do not
travel with the cold start control active.


Oh it also says:

Quote
Starting the engine
Note
Follow the “High ambient temperature” procedure to
start the engine when it is already warm.
Warning
E Before starting the engine, familiarise yourself with
the controls that you will use when riding.
Normal ambient temperature
(between 10 °C/50 °F and 35 °C/95 °F):
1) Move the ignition switch to (1). Make sure both the
green light N and the red light on the instrument
panel come on.
Important
The oil pressure light should go out a few seconds after
the engine has started (page 11).
Warning
The side stand must be fully up (in horizontal position)
as its safety sensor prevents engine start when down.
Note
The engine can be started with the sidestand down
and the gearbox in neutral. If starting with a gear engaged,
pull in the clutch lever (in this case the sidestand must be up).
2) Shift the cold-start lever to position (B, fig. 61).
3) Check that the stop switch (2) is positioned to (RUN),
then press the starter button (3).

Which seems to suggest it doesn't give a crap when you place the Stop/Run switch in the RUN position.

I still don't know if there's linkage or a stepper motor or if it's ignition timing/fuel controlled idle speed etc.

<shrugs>



Title: Re: Monster 696 or Street Triple?
Post by: DarkMonster620 on October 06, 2014, 10:01:23 AM
Read the owner's manual. The starting procedure is exclusive to 696 and I've heard it's important. No personal experience; only heard that owners had a lot of trouble starting if that procedure was not followed.
696: key on, wait for gauge sweep, "choke" to full, hit start, adjust "choke" . . . finish gearing up, close "choke", go on your way . . . for some reason, a customer here did not use it, after some time, bike would start and die . . .  I checked . . . I followed procedure I had no issues . . . had customer do it . ..  no start or start and die . . . start procedure must be followed on the first start to the day or if bike has been stopped for more than 6 hours . ..  that is what I was told in class

796: key on, gauge sweep, hit start . . . it does have a stepper ...


Title: Re: Monster 696 or Street Triple?
Post by: Kev M on October 06, 2014, 10:11:13 AM
Parts book seems to show a cable coming out of the left switch assembly. Doesn't show where it connects, but my guess would be the throttle linkage.

Service manual clearly shows and describes a choke CABLE running from the left handgrip lever to the throttle bodies.

I have to assume that it is fast idle lever, though the manual doesn't clearly state such a thing.

No mention is made of any electronic input to the ECM from that switch or the result of that switch, other than we can assume since it's a basic Speed/Density EFI system activating the cable probably opens the throttle lever which in turn tells the ECM that the throttle is open over idle leading to more fuel.

The only mention of cold start strategies is based on engine temp:

Quote
Starting
When the ignition switch is turned to ON, the control unit activates the fuel pump for a few moments to pressurise the fuel supply circuit. The throttle position and engine temperature signals are processed. When the engine is turned over by the starter motor, the unit receives the engine RPM and timing signals that allow it to proceed with injection and ignition. To facilitate start-up, the mixture is enriched in accordance with engine temperature During starting, the ignition advance angle is maintained at 0° until the engine starts. When the engine starts, the ECU controls the ignition advance in accordance with the values stored in the map and makes any necessary corrections according to the air and engine temperatures.


Title: Re: Monster 696 or Street Triple?
Post by: Curmudgeon on October 06, 2014, 10:20:57 AM
Wow, maybe I'm reading you wrong today but I'm getting condescension here.

Anyway, YEAH, I read the manual like the first day we owned it thanks. Those questions I just proposed aren't answered.
Certainly not! Forgot you were from Philly.  ;D

Have only heard just what Carlos said..., and it drives the dealers nuts!  8)


Title: Re: Monster 696 or Street Triple?
Post by: Kev M on October 06, 2014, 10:23:46 AM
Certainly not! Forgot you were from Philly.  ;D

Have only heard just what Carlos said..., and it drives the dealers nuts!  8)

Ha ha, it's all good.

OK, so to continue my hijack. We HAVE followed that start procedure from day one and probably less than a half-dozen times it's just mysteriously failed to start and when that's happened it smells like it's flooded and if we leave it alone for 10-20 minutes it starts just fine.

That is all...

But I appreciate you getting my off my lazy ass to finally read some more of the service manual and learn there IS a cable there.  :-[  [laugh]


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