Ducati Monster Forum

Stopped at the shop today, they had a few of the new 500's.


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Not too bad looking for an entry level HD scoot.

It's got potential to be a hoot, plus easy to handle for new drivers.

msrp 6,799... after dealer mark up more like 8k. after they sell you a bunch of HD shoelaces maybe closer to 10k,

hp rating 33.5.   ??? 

I almost got duped into a similar situation looking at the HD 48, pretty bike. But when you look at the cost for what you are getting I think it's HD really taking advantage of people There's just no need to charge people that much money for a bike with that level of tech.

So, i guess im saying, I agree, a new rider would enjoy owning that.. 10k would get you SOOO much more in almost any other brand. It's just crazy to me that people still buy these things. 

Sorry not being a mindless HD hater, I just dont understand it.

A good move on Harley's part to bring in new riders and build brand loyalty.

From the side view, the rear section has a bit of the old Night Train styling about it.

Actually, maybe you're not being a hater, but I would argue mindless  [cheeky]

I say this as a 5 time purchaser of NEW Harleys, including two during the waiting list years (in the 90s).

I have NEVER paid a markup on a new Harley, and I've paid as much as $2k OFF MSRP, with no freight/prep.

So have a number of my friends.

Now that's not to say that there haven't been (and probably still are) some ridiculous HD dealers who force mark-ups and/or install accessories on bikes sitting on the showroom floor then it is take-it or leave-it. BUT there are so many frickin' HD dealers in the US there's no reason to settle for that.

Hell, Cycletrader has 2700+ HD 500 Streets listed by Harley dealers for MSRP

http://www.cycletrader.com/Harley--Davidson-Street-Motorcycles----CycleTrader.com/search-results?condition=N&make=Harley--Davidson|2316294&model=Street|764956124&schemecode=AD&sort=price%3Aasc&type=356953&&year=2015%3A*&modelkeyword=1& (http://www.cycletrader.com/Harley--Davidson-Street-Motorcycles----CycleTrader.com/search-results?condition=N&make=Harley--Davidson|2316294&model=Street|764956124&schemecode=AD&sort=price%3Aasc&type=356953&&year=2015%3A*&modelkeyword=1&)

As for the Sportster and "level of tech".

What do you consider "tech"?

Don't assume that just because a motorcycle is steel framed (not aluminum) and is built for low rpm torque and not peaky hp that it is somehow less advanced in basic technology. And let's face it, what is advanced tech? What is cutting edge? Desmo valves certainly aren't? ABS? (that's old hat), Ride-By-Wire? (even this is becoming commonplace). Hell, Variable Valve Timing is decades old? What is really tech?

That Sportster (I've got a real soft spot for the Sportys) is a great example.

The current models have CanBus electrics, ABS, keyless operation with proximity sensor keys fobs, etc.

And they are seriously overbuilt. Like a truck chassis they are built to last and be rebuilt in a way that light sportbikes are not.

Over the years (and over more than 100k miles) I've hit PLENTY of horrible potholes on a number of Harleys and have NEVER EVER damaged a rim.

I hit ONE stinkin' pothole on my wife's Duc and $1200 Brembo Wheel was trashed!

I get it, there's a reason for the difference. I celebrate the differences and enjoy the lightness and handling of her awesome Monster.

But I also get why Harleys are what they are... and the Sportster is a great bike, definitely worth the money (which is really, not much different money than I spent on our last Guzzi, or last Duc).

my beef with the Harleys is that they're too damn heavy for a two wheeled vehicle to have an acceptable safety margin on the street, look at stopping distance on the Harley flhtxptdhrzpwex model (or whatever you pick out on craigslist as an example) its 103 inches of motor in 1k pounds of bike on the same or less contact patch as a monster 1200s (more power less than half the weight) Yamaha fz1 (also more power and half ish weight) I can keep going but there isn't much point, I know toooo many Harley guys who used to ride and stopped cuz they had no choice one day on the highway and had to lay a Harley down cuz some trucker jackknifed or some crap, its always the same root tho, the bike was too heavy, if they had been on anything 400lbs or under (easily reasonable for a bike) they would have been able to maneuver out of the situation without any problems.

Well put, Kev.

Me, I'd like to buy a dumped 750 version cheap and build a custom similar to the one I've posted elsewhere here, only with more sporting wheels/tires.  [thumbsup]

OK, no question that Harleys are heavyweight bikes. Though I honestly think that provides a slight advantage in highway travel and heavy crosswinds or buffeting.

That said it extracts a cost in braking distances, though they are a lot better than some people often assume.

Motorcycle Consumer News (MCN) generally lists their 60-0 braking distances in the 110s-130s foot range, perhaps most often in the 120-130 end of that range.

MCN generally lists the same spec for Ducati in the high 100's-to high 120's range.

That's honestly not that big a difference ESPECIALLY if you consider the type of riding that a Harley is generally going to be used for vs. the type of riding that a Ducati is (i.e. more laid back touring and backroad riding than attacking the twisties).

It's interesting to note that an early rubbermount Sportster with a single dual-pot Nissin front disc brake OUTPERFORMED a number of late-model BMW R1200GS's THAT WEIGHED LESS AND HAD DUAL BREMBOS!

One of the reasons for this is that the low weight and relatively long wheelbase of a Harley allows the rear brake to contribute more than on a sportbike even if the fronts still do most of the work.

Now I upgraded the brakes on my current Sportster to duals because I am more likely to ride it more spirited than most HD riders.

But Harley has always offered at least one or two bikes in their lineup that perform a little better with those metrics.

And to their credit they HAVE actually upgraded brakes on pretty much everything in their lineup the last few years. Big Twins now get Brembos (dual 4-pots on the touring models) and even Sportsters have a larger 2-pot Nissin calipers and rotors than they did when the rubbermounts were introduced in 04.

Still, you can't get by the physics, if you push the Harleys enough they obviously can't perform on the level of a modern sportbike, but that's ok with 99% of the owners who aren't looking for that anyway.


Aw come on man. If all those guys "had to lay her down" then you and I both know they were crappy, uneducated riders in the first place, since that is almost NEVER the correct option.

Quick story, when I worked for Chilton in the 90s most of the editorial department rode BMWs, so I often wound up on group rides with a bunch of K-bikes and oilheads. And most of the time I showed up on a Sportster or Road King. I'd usually chose to ride tail so that I knew I wouldn't hold up any faster riders, but I almost ALWAYS wound up having to brake and slow down to keep from running over the slower BMW guys.

I remember one particular ride where I was tossing the Road King around and having a blast, but literally had to keep braking to keep from hitting a pair of oilheads. After the ride the owners approached me wanting to know what I'd done to "hot rod" that Harley so I could ride it like that. It was bone-frickin' stock, I couldn't stop laughing.

very true kev, its not so much Harley I have a beef with (other than their exorbitant price point) but the stigma surrounding the whole operation and the ppl that statistically ride them, everything has its exception, you are one of those exceptions in the Harley world, I once went on a ride (had my track to street converted r6) and was riding with wild abandon at the front of the pack in some gnarly twisties with a guy on a concourse 1400, id pass him in the corners and he would stretch out on the straights, rinse and repeat.....after about 15 minutes our tail rider.....on a friggen Honda Goldwing, comes howling by both of us  [bow_down] [bow_down] we were like rock on dude, is it stock.....he said theres not much u can do to em anyway so yeah its stock.... [shot]

Don't get me wrong, lots of serious sportbike riders will leave me for dead no matter what I'm on.

But yeah, more often than not I find it's the rider more than the bike.

And the longer I survive, the more I think it's not a bad thing to slow down a bit... at least for me.

 [thumbsup]

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whether the weight matters or not on the motor vehicle tests the statistics on the street remain the same, most ppl that I run into that "used to ride" are Harley ppl and most times the story is the same, they never were good riders in the first place, lol most of the time it comes after a comment along the lines of "if I were gonna buy one of them mo-tor-cicles it would be a big loud American Harley, not that foreign weird thingy that makes funny sounds and doesn't shake enough" then you get the "well I used to ride, had me one of them superglide-softail-roadking-sreamin eagle-(acronyms for four hours) Harley then I was (insert minor obstacle like tim mentioned) and I had NO CHOICE but to lay her down and hope for the best, ruined my credit when my half million dollar loan on the bike went into default and now I cant stand ppl on mo-tor-cicles anymore" I hear it about twice a month id say. and yes tim ive got the same aversion to gissskkxxxerereerrrrrrrs

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bah, don't take my tags too seriously, its a personal preference more than a pathological sjw situation, I don't hold brand ownership against anyone that doesn't hold my personal preference against me. Ill never own another Honda, and ill likely never own a Harley, but I don't fault anyone for owning them as long as they can respect the reasons I don't like them and still hold an intelligent conversation with me. there are a lot of anecdotal things about life and motorcycle ownership tho, if your willing to pay the price for an entry level Harley over something like a used savage 650 or any of the small cruisers from the jap side of the market then go for it, especially if you have a good service relationship with the dealer in your area, part of why I went ducati is because they have the best ppl here in Pensacola, ive been taking all my bikes to them since 09 and they get it done in a more cost effective manner with less headache than I could do it myself. I still think Harleys are only worth it on the used market tho, 40k for a bike on anyones menu is insane outside race replicas and such.

Well, not for nothing, but for something like 2 decades now Harley has represented 50% or more of US street bike sales in the dominant category of 600cc and larger bikes.

So MOST people you run into who ride or have ridden SHOULD HAVE (or have ridden) Harleys.

And honestly, remember George Carlin, think about how stupid the average guy you meet is... now remember HALF of everyone out there is DUMBER. The same can be said for riding skills. The VAST majority of people (Harley or Import) don't really have skills... If you're better than average then MOST who you meet are gonna be worse right?

Looks like you're holding onto another myth.

I'm too tired to do it again, but over the years of posting on many multi-bike/brand forums I've run into the guy who thinks Harleys cost more, maybe it's because of the occasional jackwad-custom or a remnant of the chopper-craze. But anytime I've run price comparisons MSRP vs MSRP to the Asian or Euro competitors in the same category the vast majority of Harleys are priced right where they should be, right around the average +/- $1-2k at the MOST on the high end.

It doesn't matter if you're talking Bonnie, Bolt, Sporty, or the other end of the spectrum Touring bike vs. RT, LT, Goldwing etc.

Off the top of my head my FIRST 1200 Sportster I bought new in 1993 was almost $7k, my Road King I bought new in 96 was $14k, my wife's first new 883 Sportster in 2005 was $7k, her 1200 Sportster we bought new in 07 was $8k (got $2k off MSRP) etc.

Her 696 was MORE than those late-model Sportsters.

My last Guzzi was about the same.

I honestly don't think I've ever even SEEN a $30k Harley, nevermind a $40k, though I\'m sure they exist.

Hey, it's the bike they should have built instead of the Buell Blast.

Exactly...

That's a pretty good analogy Kev

ive never really thought of that part of the equation, ur right tho, its weird in my area you see so many sport bikes (young military) I guess it just makes the "used to ride" ppl into a squeaky wheel situation.

that's a great analogy Kev

http://pensacola.craigslist.org/mcd/4856778905.html (http://pensacola.craigslist.org/mcd/4856778905.html) (your insane)

http://pensacola.craigslist.org/mcd/4840642824.html (http://pensacola.craigslist.org/mcd/4840642824.html) (meh reasonable I guess)

http://pensacola.craigslist.org/mcd/4855265138.html (http://pensacola.craigslist.org/mcd/4855265138.html) (I guess if you have to ask you cant afford it)

http://pensacola.craigslist.org/mcd/4855289235.html (http://pensacola.craigslist.org/mcd/4855289235.html) (same story?)

ok so line one is the only one I have a real problem with, a 2008 model bike of any kind for that price? please ive always wondered why. not being disrespectful....I really appreciate finding some Harley knowledgeable guys that can help me understand, while we're on the subject wtf is up with the stupid acronyms FLHTK for instance

We have a craigslist thread.

Well, FWIW, the 2008 is a CVO, meaning it WAS actually $25-30k new. Limited edition, larger hot-rodded motor and a bunch of other upgraded parts. Not my cup-o-tea BUT, FWIW, there are equivalents from other brands:

BMW K1600 GTL Limited - MSRP $29999

http://www.bmwmotorcycles.com/us/en/index.html (http://www.bmwmotorcycles.com/us/en/index.html)

and even the run of the mill Goldwing STARTS at $24k

http://powersports.honda.com/2015/gold-wing.aspx (http://powersports.honda.com/2015/gold-wing.aspx)




TOTAL BASICS - off the top of my head.

On the 8th day God created... well, it is a religion to some.

So for the longest time Harley produced basically one motor - a BIG TWIN.

Bikes with that motor were designed starting with F  and the for the most part the only chassis designation was an L - FL Harleys.

Then the KH (side-valve sporting models) evolved into an OHV in 1957 and the XL was born. XL = Sportster.

When I was still in diapers Willie-G Davidson got the idea to combine the LARGE MOTOR "F" with the smaller front end/chassis of a Sportster "X" and the FX was born.

That later became the FXR and variations.

And by the late-90s that became the Dyna - FXD.

Sometime in the mid 80s with the advent of the EVO motor Harley stumbled upon what would be their gold - the Softail chassis (retro, retro, retro).

The Softail comes in two major varieties

FXST - F big motor, X smaller front end (skinny forks, wheels etc), ST = Softail  - FX models tend to have foot pegs (that goes for Dynas too).

FLST - F big motor, L larger front end (beefier forks, larger tires, larger seatsetc.) ST = Softail - FL models tend to have floor boards and the other trappings of a tour bike - like passing lamps, larger headlight nacelles etc)

The whole time the Electra Glide model family was evolving into the Touring models.

FLH - F = Big motor, L = big chassis, H = touring model

FLHR - the R = Road King

I get lost too on the variations but they stand for things like Street Glide, Road Glide, Ultra Classic, etc. different model tiers and features of the touring line.

But the basics remain

F = Big Twin
FX = Low Rider
FXD = Dyna
FXST = Softail, skinny/cruiser profile
FLST = Softail, large/touring profile
FLH = Touring

XL = Sportster
XR = Sportster variant

Other letters that follow those are model variants, Custom, Street Bob, Fat Bob, Fat Boy, Heritage, Road King, Ultra Classic etc.

That help?

it helps but dayum that's all kinds of annoying lol. as far as the prices go I still don't get it, and yes the Goldwing starts at 24k but that's the Goldwing, it stands alone if you ask me, been on a lot of cruisers as a passenger and ive never EVER been on anything from any manufacturer that felt as capable as a highway pounder as the Goldwing. even the mix 80s model goldwings are a superior bike as far as stacking highway miles goes to anything I can think of.

Well a GW and a FLH aren't the same bikes, but they are direct competitors. And Harley sells something like 70,000+ of the FLHs each year. How many GWs are sold?

I don't begrudge you the preference, but for MY money, I'd take the Harley if I was going full boat... Or maybe the Indian... Or POSSIBLY the Guzzi California 1400, and even THAT'S something like $18-19k.

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Kev & Tim, excellent stuff but you won't change his opinion with facts and lucid debate.

not trolling, im getting some good info and im not saying anyone should be denied their opinion.

on another note something that has always hung with me visually on Harley's is that the transmission always seems huge compared to other designs, is there some different approach to a sequential gearbox or what.

also I understand theres a lot of history but I guess since they haven't been bought by a whole bunch of different companies over the years the nomenclature/acronyms have been allowed to just stack up more than any other brand. im thinking along the lines of like jeep, each generation has its basic frame designator and that keeps things relatively in check

OK...we need details on this bike (new thread if you have to). Details!!! That think looks awesome! I'd love to have a Duc with those numbers for racing!  [drool]

+1, that is definitely a damn nice duc

You're probably thinking about the primary drive and clutch housing on the side of the bike more than the transmission which on big twins is a smaller, separately replaceable unit hidden behind the motor and primary case.

In contrast the Sportster is a unitized motor where the transmission is in the same housing/cases, though there is still an attached primary/clutch assembly.

Yes, nomenclature had grown because of the direct lineage.

Ahhh I never knew the primary drive was set up like that, I thought that whole thing was tyranny, it just looks super bulky that way.

.

This bad boy was there yesterday as well.  8)


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http://www.pipeburn.com/home/2015/01/19/harley-davidson-street-750-kustom-kommune.html#.VMETMEfF_Pp (http://www.pipeburn.com/home/2015/01/19/harley-davidson-street-750-kustom-kommune.html#.VMETMEfF_Pp)

 [evil]

 8) [evil]


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i'll admit i got lost in wall-o-text and stopped reading, but let me clarify something about my original statement.

If you love the machine you're on, and you ride it, and it makes you smile.. than in the grand scheme of things that's a good thing. I have a few friends that ride HD and raz me constantly for my "uncomfortable" sportbikes, granted i've logged more miles on my 600 hornet in 3 months than any of them have in two years.. but do they smile when they go out? yep. so good on them.
When it comes to being on the road i could care less what other people are on, to me anyone on two wheels is a brother when we're rolling down the road and i'd stop to help a gixxxer squid just as soon as i'd help a HD rider. Now when im sitting with my friends and someone asks me what i think about hd? that's a different story. look at the casting on the fork tubes. its rough, poor casting. look at that shiny "HD" logo on the SINGLE POT brake calipers,(( looks like my Fbomb got auto edited, lol thats pretty clever, so i'll use firefly lingo instead)  "GORAM"  sticker. a chrome STICKER. The bars a cheap steel, the grips are cheap rubber, the suspension is 100% non-adjustable on all models, save for some rear preload MAYBE. the frame design is as old as time itself. the engine mapping is outdated, the cables are routed clumsily, the motors really don't make as much torque as everyone claims and make nothing for HP. they are the way they are because it looks cool. not because it works. and that bothers me.
If harlery's were priced to reflect their zero (cares) givin attitude i would have no issue, some of these things just are not important to people and that's OKAY. But to be asked to pay high end italian race bike prices for all of that is insulating.  It's just my opinion that a new rider should be promtley talked out of buying any new bike. (yes honda has some overpriced new rider models too) I will always try and talk a new rider into a cheap used bike that doesn't put them into debt for a sport that they might not even fall in love with. for 4k this would be a great thing for new riders. the tech and craftsmanship reflect a 4k price point. that's my opinion. I don't hate harley bikes. I hate harley raping people who don't know better with "cool" instead of "function"

That all said, if it tickles you, buy it, i'll high five you at the gas staion and welcome you to the world of riding because it's just my opinion and honestly my opinion isn't all that important. throw a leg, fire it up, and smile on. [Dolph]
 

A few minor points of correction.

They haven't used a single pot caliper for more than a decade (unless this new entry level bike has em).

They had 4-pots on Sportys by 2000 (though changed to Nissin 2-pots in 04), and they had multi-pot Kelsey-Hayes on Big Twins before that, though they've since changed to 4-pot Brembos.

Rear suspension pre-load has always been adjustable (well, as long as I've been alive), and various models have had front adjustments (preload via air on many touring models over the years). Plus various sport models have had fully adjustable front and rear suspensions, FXDX, 1200S, XRX etc. But MOST of their clientele don't require it.

Fuel mapping is arguably one of the best in the industry and had been since their early Weber-Marelli injected models (I had one in 96 which ran perfectly for the ~2 years and ~65k miles I kept it, and well past 100k for the next owner).

Don't know what you're basing that torque statement on.

Don't know what you think is cheap about the rubber on the grips, but I've replaced grips on metric bikes in shorter periods of time/miles than I've owned Harleys without ever needing to replace them.

Many parts on Harleys are, uhhh, industrial in design. They are overly robust and sometimes a tad crude by design. Overbuilt and understressed in many areas. But the fit and finish, and at deep rich paintwork, and seamless metal fuel tanks etc. are first rate.

Like or don't like is fine, but perception isn't always reality.

this  [beer]

For years I dismissed HD as crude heavy wayback machines built for the bar hopping HOG crowd.  [roll]

Until I got schooled by a Road King riding old dude on a twisty back road. OK, it was his back road to his house, but still it opened my eyes.  :o

I took the time to talk to a few HD riders and check out the bikes.

While they are not to my style of ride, they are good, well built bikes. HD knows its customer base, and what they want from them, it shows in the sales numbers. Plus HD is willing to push the engineering within those confines.

HD is not going to build a Desmosedici, but it will build touring bikes, cruisers, & retro styled bike with the best of them. It's no wonder that metric cruisers have the same design and styling cues as HD.

And back to the original post, I think the new HD 500 is a wise move for HD to gather a portion of the new rider segment and cement some brand loyalty. HD also knows how to manage brand loyalty well.

That's the problem with noobs, theyre noobs.  They see the Bar&Shield, and pull out their wallets before doing a reality check.  OTOH, it's better looking than the Blast, and Hardley has a really great entry rider program.  I'm waiting for the LiveWire.............

Now that's cool!


That's bad alright: short, fat and ugly.   [puke]

Built in India.

Just sayin'

Someone at HD must like Indian food, kinda like someone at Ducati liking Thai.  :D

AND Kansas City...


Just sayin'

if you build a bike in asia you get quite massive tax discounts when you try to sell it in asia.

here in au it's a lam, so harley can take a rider from learners to where ever.

To be accurate it's not so much a tax discount as it is you DON'T suffer the huge import tariff.

I know, it's two ways around a square, but it levels the playing field, rather than providing an advantage.