Ducati Monster Forum

I'm writing a business plan to start (or partner) a DIY bike shop. I have been discouraged by the lack of motorcycle educational places in NYC so my idea is to solve that problem. Ideally it would be a large garage with multiple lifts each with a workbench and their own set of basic tools. Tire changer, air compressor(s), outlets, welding area, etc, etc would be available too. People could come in and pay an hourly rate for the lifts or full day. Month long would also be available. The vision also has a high educational aspect as well (this would be the focus of the branding), with classes and workshops showing how to do stuff from basic maintenance to engine rebuilding taught by seasoned mechanics who would come through when workshops are being held. A couple of mechanics would be on staff to help out or to do the work if customers dont want to dive in themselves.
Other programming would happen like group rides, charity rides, art shows, bbq's, etc.
I have also been contemplating using the platform to help urban teens. Lots of teenagers in my area of Bed Stuy ride bikes or either stand on the corner doing nothing. I would love to put a wrench in their hands and teach them something valuable.
Small retail would be there too like tees, hats, coveralls, aprons, and consumables like oil, plugs, chains, lubes, and cleaners, etc.
Insurance would be a huge hurdle and the place would need lots of security cameras and waivers for if and when someone drops a bike on their head.
There are a couple of other shops sort of like this in Brooklyn. One is a massive storage facility with the ability to work on your bike but with limited lifts and a shared pot of tools. No classes or workshops. At your own risk. Another is a member only DIY space. Little to no programming. And the last one is a standard garage (run by a jerk) that has storage and DIY space but no lifts and no tools.

I am considering talking to the owner of the first mentioned one about a partnership. He is a stand up dude and would give me an ear. But he may not want the extra risk. His model is easy and successful. But he is a big community minded guy so maybe he'll be interested.
The business plan is nearly done and I'm slated to take some business courses by the local SBA and SCORE.

Just want to hear your thoughts about this idea.
To get an idea of what I'm thinking, during my research I came across this shop in San Fran that is doing pretty much exactly what I want to do. http://www.motoshopsf.com/ (http://www.motoshopsf.com/)

Granted, they are in sunny Cali and my idea is in seasonal NYC. But I think if I do it right it can work.

Had the same idea years ago, only thought of customers paying monthly or yearly dues like a gym membership. Also incorporating a parts and equipment shop and coffee shop. Two lead mechanics who assist people who need assistance and a tool loan supervisor.

Yep, an adjoining cafe is part of the idea to help with winter costs. There are excellent roasters in Brooklyn and the food/pastries would be supplied from outside vendors.

The mountain looks huge from down here but I really want to do this.

Make sure you fully investigate the liability insurance issue.

Sounds like a really good idea.  I was just wishing the other day, we had something like that around here, because I have no place to work on my car or bike and hate having to pay someone to do something I can do.

Sounds like a good idea.  I was looking for something like that for my Lil race car. Instead of trying to dropped the transaction in winter out in the street.  Would you incorporate a space for cars?

I grew up in Williamsburg and live in Bushwick near myrtle/Wyckoff  station.  Not getting a bike till we move  out of ny but I would attend workshops..

they are running them in melbourne and sydney.  kustom kommune and i forget the sydney one.

http://kustomkommune.com.au/ (http://kustomkommune.com.au/)

Without a doubt Abby. Its probably going to be the most hairy part of this, well and then the money aspect. Do banks give $150,000 loans?

Sweden has classic car communes as well

http://www.motherearthnews.com/nature-and-environment/cooperative-garages-mechanic-savings-zmaz71sozgoe.aspx?PageId=1#ArticleContent

Closer to home?

What a cool article...

There is one in Cali. I can't seem to remember the name...good luck.

I'd read this page... http://www.inc.com/graham-rapier/business-lessons-from-car-talk.html (http://www.inc.com/graham-rapier/business-lessons-from-car-talk.html)

...and go for it.

I really like the idea.
Many times, when you venture in non trivial DIY jobs, you blast through most of it, and you always have a couple of "hmm, how about this?" moments which make you waste 80% of the time.
Having a skilled tech in the room would allow to save a lot of time, and possibly $$ due to not doing the wrong thing.

Word of caution: make sure there is a market for this.  I've known of plenty of enterprising people who started a business because they noticed a lack of some service/product, but after they invested a lot of time/$ and got to market, they realized people weren't as interested in practice as they were in theory.

I only say this because I know some people here in our wonderful city here that would like to work on their bikes or learn more maintenance but when given the actual chance do not.  It's a lot like everyone I know that says they really want to learn spanish/chinese/some other language, but in spite of the bazillion affordable resources online and in their neighborhoods, they never do.

My suggestions would be to pursue the option you mentioned about teaming up with that first guy.  If not possible, maybe just arrange for workshops in a rental space from time to time.  Then, if they prove popular and constantly fill up, maybe you make the move to a full time location with all the fixings you described.  A cheap way to test the waters with low investment and risk.

Finally, there are a lot of resources in the city here that I would encourage you to check out.  Rider's Alley (w/ two garages in Manhattan, run by a guy named Damien) has workshops from time to time.  The man running them (Armen) had been doing so for 30 years.  He no longer does the longer workshops last time I chatted with him and is only doing 1-day or less classes.  It would be interesting to know if this change is because people just weren't coming or because he is getting old and wanted to pull back.  That is directly relevant to you: if the former reason then it is a demand problem that may adversely affect your plan; if the latter reason then it is a supply problem that supports your plan.  In any case, I would talk to others that have tried similar stuff to see what has worked and what hasn't.

All this caution aside, I like the idea for purely selfish reasons---I have an old honda I was restoring that I never get to work on since I don't have the space.  So I'll be your first client if you ever get this up and running.  Anyway, forgive the long reply.  Just my $0.02, often worth less.


...Oh, and if you want to bounce ideas off of someone over a beer, PM me and I'll be glad to meet up and act as a sounding wall.

Motoshop and Piston & Chain are two examples in SF.

Sorry no mean to threadjack but, thorn14, I think your email might have been hacked . ..  been receiving nasty stuff from your email !!!

Now, back to scheduled programming

Good Idea.... 
I have been to one of the shops in NYC for storage for a night.  Charged 20-25 bucks I think.
I concor with most postings.  Do a survey's as well as a a sit in forum to bounce ideas.   Good luck . dc   

we had one in portland. everyone was stoked on the idea, the guy invested a ton to get it off the ground and in the end all the people that liked the idea had not interest in actually plunking down the cash to do it.


I myself am the shop foreman at what is essentially a motorcycle co-op.   we have ~2300sqft divided amongst 14 people (we have room for more).  is not a business, so I can keep the cost low, which may be the only reason its working.

the way we do it, you rent a space much the same you would rent a room in a house (master bedroom is more than the basement)  the cost is about 1$ a sqft.  you are responsible for all your tools/benches/lifts, you are not allowed to store anything outside of your spot.  however, when you are working, you are free to move stuff around, push bikes into pathways, outside etc.  the shop is also pretty tight knit. so things like lifts, air compressors, fab tools, mills, lathes, media blaster etc are generally free to borrow as long as they go back where they were and you ask permission. we also have 3 phase,220 and sprinklers.

we also have a running shop fee that is divided evenly among everybody (for us, its $400/number of people with keys) this covers rent for the space we cant use (pathways, ramps, etc) and buys consumables like soap and trash bags.


we've been rolling since august and its been great. everyone does their bit and weve actually been able to save up some cash towards a bigger compressor and security cameras.    The best thing is that we have been able to be pretty exclusive with who is in the space. they are all friends, or friends of friends.  we have bbqs, bullshit, kick around ideas, share skills.  its really nice to go to the shop and have friends around while you wrench, I feel like thats the biggest benefit of the place.

feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

1.21- I am doing some market research and its hard finding good info. I suppose it would take talking to lots of riders and doing this here on other forums. I do know there is a sh**ton of riders in nyc. Hard to believe seeing how cold it gets here some winters.
The thing about learning about wrenching on bikes is that since the first motorized bicycle, its been, in a word, "cool". Learning spanish or chinese has never been really cool. Useful, sure.
I do think there is great potential for this in NYC. The folks who are "attempting" it here are not really launching it forward because there is a lot of laziness with shops in this city. I have been to many throughout Brooklyn and Manhattan. Lots of lazy. Do or do not, there is no try. Right?
I emailed a bit with Armen. Cool guy. Wish I took his super long class when it was around. I'm gonna take his current shorter one next month and also use it as a means to chat with him about my idea. He's been in the game for a long time and would probably have great insight.
He told me the reason for dropping the multi-day classes: wasted information. Basically he was taking buckets of info and cutting up something like 40 hours into a few days. People were getting filled with info that 95% of which would go unused. He was putting in too much energy for what he felt his customers really needed (wanted?). Another issue is just how it was offered. Too much data all at once. My à la carte class and workshop platform is much better. Why sit through hours and hours of other stuff when you really just want to know about how to best set up your suspension?
1.21, I might take you up on that beer offer.  [thumbsup]

xcaptainxbloodx- Is the shop you describe the "Ratchets Away" studio? If so, I read the whole site. I know a bit about Portland, its culture and its people. Having a format like mine out there would surely tank. The way the Ratchets studio is doing it is exactly "Portland". I think the guy who started the DIY shop that failed just was trying to build a brand in a town that was inappropriate for its culture.

Thanks so much for the feedback folks. Its been extremely valuable.  [thumbsup]

As a side note... Read the E myth revisited.

I will check it out. Thanks!

Lots of people think all they need is an awesome idea and passion for what they do, and forget about all the different hats a small business owner has to wear during the day to day operations. The book touches on that aspect of running a business.

When I've managed other peoples operations, I've had my employees read it. I've found it helps then buy into the concept that they are active participants in the success of the business, not just pawns left to do the owners bidding.

In NYC, you should offer monthly parking/storage and set up facilities to "stack" bikes or otherwise warehouse them in an efficient manner.  With parking slots for a bike running upwards of $200/month the area (according to a story I listened to yesterday on "The Pace Motorcycle Podcast") you could probably make the thing live just doing that!

What episode?

And in Manhattan they are $225 as of last summer, and at least I know of has a wait list to get in.  Wouldn't shock me if they hit $250 in a year or so.  Wouldn't be surprised if brooklyn garages starting upping prices too, at least the ones in prime locations.

Even winter storage is rising.  Used to be $80/month at some garages but now like $100/month.  So clearly these is something pushing up prices...

hmmm, could it be.....
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Demand?  ;D

Yeah, but could also rising costs, causing garages to raise prices out of need.  Specifically, RE prices: in this city they continue to climb at head-scratching rates.

I think this would be a very tough business.

It's a small percentage of riders that want to work on their own bikes. Some may think it's a cool idea like learning to play the guitar but few are willing to invest the time to learn to do it properly. I'd guess that of guys that work on their own bikes most are engineer types that don't think anyone could do as good a job as they could and a bunch are guys that can't afford to pay anyone to work on their bikes. Neither group is the type that will sustain a stand alone business.

The liability seems huge. Some guy comes in and works on his own brakes or throttle, your tech gives him some advice, the guy leaves and ends up a quad because his brakes didn't work correctly. That's the end of your business and likely your house.

I think the idea already posted of renting space from the existing guy and growing bit by bit over time is much better then dropping 150K and hoping for the masses to come.

My dealer comes to my house in a Sprinter and picks up my bike for free. Takes it back, does the work, and returns it in the Sprinter for free. How could it get any better?

I agree that the liability potential is definitely something to investigate ahead of time.  Probably will have to talk to a lawyer at some point and of course they aren't cheap even for simple startup advice (ask me how I know).  However, there are ways to limit your personal liability by incorporating (e.g. LLC or S corp) rather than setting up as a sole proprietorship.  Your business still goes belly up, but you get to keep your house (unless, of course, you put that up as collateral for your bank loan).


Don't you just love how we DMFers just rained all over your idea, memper?  :P   That said, if every entrepreneur listened to all the naysayers, no one would ever launch a business and we'd all still be living in caves and using stone tools.   So good on you.  I still like the idea, but of course for previously mentioned selfish reasons.   ;D

Don't think it's completely demand but ridership is rising. It's probably greedy building owners

Not rain just reality. Every dream must face it if the dream is to become real.
Liability can be covered in type of business set up and insurance coverage. Then there will be waivers for customers to sign, security cameras, and staff to check work for safety before leaving the shop. Even if nothing bad happens, slander on your rep can take a business down.

Client base. Yes, it will include engineer types, shade tree types, and total noobs. Genuine student types, know it alls, and posers. Plenty of types of people.
If there is storage and an option to hand the bike over to a mechanic because they are too lazy, afraid, too busy, or can't bother with it, I think it will be ok if not great.

Oh and have couches and big screen for moto race day

[thumbsup] [thumbsup]

Given your professional talents, you probably could make some pretty awesome graffiti for the place, too.

[cheeky]

you might be able to side step the liability if you only provide the space.  no tools.  no equipment.  no advice.  Just provide the space and let the tenants decide how much help they want to give each other.

you could lease space to anyone that way, shade-tree mechanics in from the cold, small builders, etc.  kind of like a motorcycle think tank/incubator.

Yeah, that's kinda what the guy who I mentioned is doing with his huge space. He has storage and some tools big and small but it's work at your own risk.
I'm gonna try to figure out my plan somehow.
Anyone ever try or know anyone who has tried Rocket Hub for funding?

there's a huge motorcycle co-op on the nj side of the holland tunnel.  no signage and the building looks a bit decrepit, but there are some amazing bikes inside.  google spannerland for more info.

yep, Ive seen that before online. Sweet looking place.

Awesome name, might have to steal it for my own garage some day.

Found this:
http://www.indianmcinfo.com/Indian_stuff/pdfs/Lesson/nbr29_your_motorcycle_repair_business.pdf (http://www.indianmcinfo.com/Indian_stuff/pdfs/Lesson/nbr29_your_motorcycle_repair_business.pdf)

Its been very informative

Thanks for that shared link.

 [thumbsup]

I would be interested in funding something like this, but only if there is bike storage attached to it.

The repair portion is incredibly useful, but not "income dense."

There are a LOT of people in NYC who want a bike, but have no place to put it for the 11 months and 29 days they don't ride.

Typical valet-parked bike lots that offer no services (battery charging, etc) run around 50-70 per month around the country and with services up to $100/month.  For NYC that could run 30-50-100% more easily.

With valet parking (meaning someone stores and retrieves your bike, and you have to pick it up after calling ahead) you can pack a bike into a spot that's about 24-30" wide comfortably, even less if you pack them tight.

Do the math.

it is (was) indeed ratchets away.  he was doing it right, people just didn't put their money where their mouth was. my shop hasn't got a name,website or even a sign. very discreet.

Doing it in NYC might be easier because of the (I presume) scarcity of garage space.  here in portland a 300$ room in a house will probably include enough garage space to work on and store a bike, so there isnt an urgency to pay extra to get a motorcycle space.
In nyc I imagine if you are already having to spend 50-100$ a month to get an offsite space just to park a bike you could convince people to spend 2 or 3 times the "base" amount to get a premium space.

Yep. In brooklyn, the average is around $200/month. Winter only pricing stays the same in some spots and goes down to around $100 in other places. Storage is definitely going to be part of the equation. Helps with the winter slump in activity and also may create a "captive audience" for the DIY programming.

This is irrelevant at this point because there is so much more important things to do. However, names are fun  [Dolph]
The first one I picked was off the mark so heres a list of names I quickly came up with. Suggestions welcome!
*none of these have been researched for availability*
The Pit
Apex Moto
The Paddock
Brooklyn Paddock
Moto MD
Turn 13
The Lift
Cycology
Moto Clinic
Harbor Cycles
Secret Base (my daughters idea  ;D)
Moto Doc (dock/park/mend/repair)
Dox or Moto Dox

The secret to picking a good name is picturing it on a T-shirt. Then picturing Keira Knightly wearing said T-shirt.

I was thinking Evangeline Lilly...

So your suggestion is "I'm home, take me drunk."

Figure out where you're going to be first.  You don't want to pick a name and then it doesn't fit the facility/location.

There is no issue with setting up your business as "Memper, LLC" and then using a DBA for the storefront.  That is very common, look at the business placard in any parking garage in NYC.

The name should be the last item on your checklist.

Figuring out who to bribe and how much is much higher.

Without a doubt. Like I said, just a bit of forum fun.

Any bike business that isn't a dealer should have a name that is a double entendre

Magic Dick's Bike Hideaway

Well then

Harry Bawls Bikapalooza.

There is a strip club around here called "The Library". That would work.

Where were you honey? "The Library".

Sounds like Ryders Alley: http://www.rydersalley.com/1/Home.html (http://www.rydersalley.com/1/Home.html)

Episode 193.  Sorry for the delay....haven't been here for a while.

Yep. There are a few shops around Brooklyn who are attempting a similar model. Problem is they have a client base and I'm green.

Thanks!

Did someone already post this link?  If not, snoop around and do some reconnaissance or maybe reach out the them to chat about their experience and success/failures.

http://www.motoshopsf.com/ (http://www.motoshopsf.com/)

Yep. I think I posted that on page 1. I emailed some questions with no response. Perhaps a call would be more successful.