Hey all... I'm considering buying the 821 dark. The 1200 is a little more then I'd like to spend right now, and I love the look of the dark. I haven't test ridden one yet, but I am a bit of a power/speed monger. I'm a little bit worried that I will out grow the power potential of the 821 and find myself wanting more. Is there any easy, reliable, relatively affordable way to increase the 821's output significantly down the line? Something that will match or best the 1200? I have mostly been a Harley guy, so I'm imagining something like the 1200 "hop-up kit" for the 883 sportsters. You can easily change out the jugs and pistons on the 883, and then you have a 1200 (actually they swap out the cylinder sleeves for thinner ones and change the pistons). Is there any "hop-up Kit" like that available for the 821? What would someone expect to pay for something like that?
Thanks!
Fairly new bike so I doubt aftermarket modifications are available just yet. That said, the newer ducati's have a very large slug of electronics that come as part of the package.
I dont want to knock Harley's but most of their models are still like the monsters of old. Low electronic aids and raw power. A hop up kit may come in the future but I would be very careful of how the stock electronics interact with the aftermarket modifications. I'd specifically pay close attention to the riding modes that change the engine profile and power characteristics.
Since the 821 already has about a 50 HP advantage over a Harley 1200 Sportster (OK a little less torque) and weighs a lot less you might want to ride the bike a bit first.
I used the sportster as an example of a "hop up kit", but that's not what I'm coming off of. The Harley I'm selling is a steet bob (1580 cc), but I'm also riding a Big Dog K9 with a 1900cc motor which makes about 105 horse and 120ft lbs. I've also owned two vmaxes... A 2005 & a 2009. I am aware that the Monster will be much faster then my Harley, but I'm worried it won't satisfy me after a short period of time. ;D
I know the concern. I started riding with a honda superhawk 305cc. It was my first bike and I thought it was really fast when I first got on it. I actually learned how to ride on my way home from the honda dealer. By the time I got home I was already bored with the power output. Next was a big bore kit, velocity stacks, rearrange the transmission. Then trade in on a 450, same sequence a week after purchase bored, then a honda 750 took a little longer but still spent most of my time red-lining the thing and shifting with the throttle pegged. Fast forward to the S4RS. Displacement is a little larger than the 821 but the HP and Torque specs are similar the 821 because it is 7 years newer tech. So after 7 years on the S4RS the thing still scares the hell out of me. I rarely use full throttle in the first 3 gears. As a few folks here have mentioned ride the bike it should have plenty of performance.
However on a strictly financial basis get the 1200s spend the extra cash now, the bike will hold it's value longer. And it will most likely stay fairly stock. It's kind of like buying a civic because you are being frugal then ending up putting enough after market parts on that you could have saved money by buying an M3
Reliable and easy? No.
Difficult and unreliable!
The 821, like many Ducatis, is much closer to the maximum theoretical performance than a Harley. The closer you get theoretical maximum, the higher the price gets and reliability disappears.
Larger capacity with all it involves is probably the least expensive (long term), but probably more expensive than the price jump to a 1200/S. Most people nowadays just buy the bigger bike - not enough customers for any aftermarket 821->1200 kits.
Power increase is more likely to happen, but it would cost, it wouldn't be close to a 1200 and it would be a high rev'ing thing with poor longevity and very high maintenance costs. Fun though.
If you're 'certain' you'll need more and end up trading the 821 for a 1200 - maybe it's smarter to loan/finance the dfference and go straight for the 1200.... Since you'll NOT be paying the depreciation from new 821 to used 821.
You already owned a harley. Why not try out a Diavel instead. Way more power and torque. Similar to your previous bike.
Crap loads more power
Thanks for all of the lucid responses. I'll ride it and see how it feels... Go from there. I've heard the Diavel is awesome... Vmax like, but I just can't deal with the looks. It's just not my kind of thing. As for the 1200/1200s... Sounds dumb, but I like Black! Also, I already have the Big Dog , so this is my second bike. I'm trying to be reasonable about what I'm spending... Another reason to avoid the Diavel. I always have an issue keeping to the "moderate" column though. It just feels... Well... Moderate. I tend to start there & then talk myself into the "super-sized" column. Just not sure If I need to do that here. [bang]
I have a test ride on the 821 planned for Monday... I'll report back. I appreciate the input. [thumbsup]
Test ride all three if you can, Diavel, 821 and 1200.
If I do that, then I'm in big trouble! [evil]
[laugh]
I hear you.
A bit more power in open loop and some weight saving with this:
http://www.ducati.com/accessories/monster/carbon_fibre_racing_silencer_kit_920/index.do?urlBack=%2Faccessories%2Fsearch%2Findex.do%3FkeyWord%3D%26pageNumber%3D0%26bikeFamilyName%3DMonster%26bikeModelLabel%3D821%26idModelYear%3Dnull%26idCategory%3D0%26nameOrder%3Ddesc%26sortOrder%3Drate (http://www.ducati.com/accessories/monster/carbon_fibre_racing_silencer_kit_920/index.do?urlBack=%2Faccessories%2Fsearch%2Findex.do%3FkeyWord%3D%26pageNumber%3D0%26bikeFamilyName%3DMonster%26bikeModelLabel%3D821%26idModelYear%3Dnull%26idCategory%3D0%26nameOrder%3Ddesc%26sortOrder%3Drate)
Quote from: stopintime on March 26, 2015, 04:24:19 PM
Reliable and easy? No.
Difficult and unreliable!
The 821, like many Ducatis, is much closer to the maximum theoretical performance than a Harley. The closer you get theoretical maximum, the higher the price gets and reliability disappears.
Larger capacity with all it involves is probably the least expensive (long term), but probably more expensive than the price jump to a 1200/S. Most people nowadays just buy the bigger bike - not enough customers for any aftermarket 821->1200 kits.
Power increase is more likely to happen, but it would cost, it wouldn't be close to a 1200 and it would be a high rev'ing thing with poor longevity and very high maintenance costs. Fun though.
^^ This.
Quote from: howie on March 26, 2015, 10:09:38 PM
A bit more power in open loop and some weight saving with this:
http://www.ducati.com/accessories/monster/carbon_fibre_racing_silencer_kit_920/index.do?urlBack=%2Faccessories%2Fsearch%2Findex.do%3FkeyWord%3D%26pageNumber%3D0%26bikeFamilyName%3DMonster%26bikeModelLabel%3D821%26idModelYear%3Dnull%26idCategory%3D0%26nameOrder%3Ddesc%26sortOrder%3Drate (http://www.ducati.com/accessories/monster/carbon_fibre_racing_silencer_kit_920/index.do?urlBack=%2Faccessories%2Fsearch%2Findex.do%3FkeyWord%3D%26pageNumber%3D0%26bikeFamilyName%3DMonster%26bikeModelLabel%3D821%26idModelYear%3Dnull%26idCategory%3D0%26nameOrder%3Ddesc%26sortOrder%3Drate)
I was wondering about this. What kind of gains with these? 5 horse maybe? What is "open loop"?
Quote from: ZenMonster on March 27, 2015, 04:43:00 AM
I was wondering about this. What kind of gains with these? 5 horse maybe? What is "open loop"?
Maybe 5 HP. The Last In Line knows Ducati's claim. Like cars, most modern motorcycles are now using oxygen sensors and catalytic converters to control emissions. When in closed loop (engine warm, under a certain percent throttle and under a certain RPM) the ECU attempts to keep the fuel ratio at 14.7:1 also known as stoichiometric ratio, considered to be the best compromise for emissions, power and fuel economy, plus this ratio keeps the cat(s) happy. This is accomplished by a computer input O
2 sensor to the ECU. Sense, correct, wash, rinse, repeat. I don't know what is available presently for the Monster 821 in terms of a flash to remove closed loop...Last In Line to the red phone please!
As far as factory, nothing apart from Termi Race Kit with Upmap for an average 10% on a good day . . . more realistic, an average of 8% under regular conditions. "This upmap", uses the O2 sensors
Since ECU is Continental/SiemensVDO unit, some tuners might have already cracked the code for it and someone should be coming out with a "Performance Air Filter" soon . . . Regarding exhausts, same as for air filter, mostly aftermarket . . .
Need/want more power, get a M1200/S . . .
Unless you commited yourself to a "racing series" the goodies are gonna be kept under lock and key at the factory in Bologna . . . And then, bike would be "RACE TRACK ONLY"
interesting stuff. A lot to consider. It will be cool to learn about one of these bikes. I love the idea of a technologically modern machine for once. The harley style push-rod v-twins are fun (especially the Big Dog's 117 CI), but I am longing for something that really makes the most of the technology available today. Should be fun.
Want technology, buy a new R1.
the only way to get 1200 performance from an 821 is to trade it on a 1200.
So... I test road the Monster 821. I don't want to offend anyone who has one, but I was not impressed. It really didn't feel any faster then my Harley. Definitely less torque. Disappointing. I did, however test ride the Diavel. That sucker is a horse of a different color. It was just begging me to whack the throttle, and man did it reward me for the effort! I have some thinking to do... really didn't want to spend an extra $11,000!
Maybe this is a sign to get the M1200?
I like the Diavel.
If you were expecting lower end punch . . . we know the 821 is lacking . . . The M1200/S is different . . The Diavel, well, yes, it has ALL the power you want[162HP], plus cornering clearance plus braking power . ..
without wishing to cause anyone offence, it frustrates me that people don't understand the relationship between capacity and torque. and the expectations that come from that.
torque is very much related to capacity. how efficient the engine design is also plays a part, but it's much less influential. so an 800cc engine should have 66% of the torque of a 1200. an engine that revs higher will often have higher bmep (torque per cc), but the delivery (shape of the curve) variation between a low revving 1200 2v and a high revving 800 4v will exaggerate that difference.
we had quite a few owners complain that their 748R had less midrange than their 748. it made me want to slap them.
Sooo... I bought a 2015 Diavel Dark! [evil] Couldn't resist! I'm I still allowed to hang out here?
Quote from: ZenMonster on April 02, 2015, 12:55:25 PM
Sooo... I bought a 2015 Diavel Dark! [evil] Couldn't resist! I'm I still allowed to hang out here?
Yes .. .. ..
Now, the complete exhaust will give you 8% more power/torque . . . ;D
That will have to be next on the list
.... Oh, in black> ceramic coated
Hooty-Hoo!! Have fun with that Bad Boy!
In for a penny in for a pound! [laugh] Good for you!
Looking forward to seeing it. They are a wicked looking bike.
Cheers.
Thanks guys! Those black ceramic Termis are sweet... Unbelievably expensive, but sweet!
How's the Diavel going?
Just arrived an hour ago! I am deeply in love! [evil](//)
Have to give us a ride report. [thumbsup]
Just read this thread from the beginning.
You, sir, are my hero. [bow_down]
Quote from: pesto on April 12, 2015, 04:33:11 PM
Just read this thread from the beginning.
You, sir, are my hero. [bow_down]
Ha! Lmao!
I Just did about 180 miles today on the Diavel. The bike is amazing. The thing will over take most anything on the highway with just a little extra input on the throttle. I am in the break-in period, so I have to keep it below 6k. You can still move under 6k, but I get the sense that if I could wind it out to 7, she'd turn into a serious beast.
I find it a little bit difficult to control in sport mode in traffic and at low speeds. It wants to rev so high, and I am having a difficult time adjusting my clutch input to match RPMs from a stop. I'm starting to get it, but My experience is from low revving American v-twins. This is a very different experience. I have found that urban mode is indispensable in traffic and when riding behind slower moving vehicles. It is much easier to coordinate throttle/clutch input, and easier to find a gear to hang out in... Instead of having to fight between the high end of a lower gear & the low end of a higher gear.
When you can get out from behind someone and bring her back to sport mode, it's smooth sailing! She just pulls and pulls and pulls! You can toss her into the twisted without pause. What a difference from my 108 inch long Big Dog chopper!
This bike is just a beautiful machine... Breaks are awesome too... Love the ABS. I had a couple of moments where traffic stopped abruptly, and I was glad to have them.
I foresee spending A LOT of time on this rocket!
Congratulations. [beer]
Cruiser with superbike performance. [thumbsup]
I would recommend using in Touring mode if you want the 150HP . . .they just show up in a more relaxed way . . .
I'll definitely try that Dark... I haven't touched touring mode yet
Quote from: ZenMonster on April 12, 2015, 05:29:35 PM
I'll definitely try that Dark... I haven't touched touring mode yet
It is easier but for around town in traffic, go URBAN.. just 100HP . .
Quote from: DarkMonster620 on April 12, 2015, 05:42:12 PM
It is easier but for around town in traffic, go URBAN.. just 100HP . .
Yeah... Urban was really helpful.
An addendum to my previous ride report... I have two herniated discs in my lower back that often act up and cause A LOT of pain... in my back and down my sciatic. S1-L5 & L5-L4. I was worried that a long ride on this bike might agrivate my back, even though the short test ride I took before buying it didn't show any signs of causing pain. It is hard to tell if the short ride is only comfortable because it is a short ride or not. I'm happy to report that after 180 miles, my back didn't make a peep. The riding position works. My ass did start to burn toward the end of the day, but I can handle that. Also, the guys on the Diavel forum swear by the touring seat option for long rides.
Touring seat is +