hey guys
nearly 1 year of 1997 monster 400 ( i live in Japan ) ownership under my belt...love the bike, no issues until...rode on friday, all sweet....saturday morning bike didnt want to start ( kept in a warm dry garage, has started everytime on colder mornings ), wouldnt idle when it did start. finally got it too idle but i could hear the engine noise was totally different... more of a wimper than a growl. tried to ride her... was like riding a honda cub .... one cylinder not firing i thought...then suddenly she roared into action.... went home... tried again a few hours later and the same problem..she doesnt want to idle and no power.... could she be not firing on one cylinder? as a vespa owner, I do not have such issues and have no idea where to start? fuel filter? fuel lines? cdi? carb overhaul? a trip to the ducati shop is expensive so i hope it is a fixable issue that i can do myself...any help/ ideas really welcome.
It sounds like it's running on one cylinder.
Check the plugs.
thanks
checked the horizontal cylinder and looks good... i think though it is that cylinder that is not firing...
will pull off the ht lead from either cylinder and see if the bike runs..
ht lead problem? cdi? gas shortage?
any ideas how to troubleshoot ?
big thanks in advance
mike
Quote from: samuraibiker on March 29, 2015, 07:43:01 PM
thanks
checked the horizontal cylinder and looks good... i think though it is that cylinder that is not firing...
will pull off the ht lead from either cylinder and see if the bike runs..
ht lead problem? cdi? gas shortage?
any ideas how to troubleshoot ?
big thanks in advance
mike
How did you check the cylinder? Did you test for spark? Did you check the health of your spark plug wires? Check connections to coils, grounds, and igniters? Do you have an ohm meter?
If one cylinder is not firing the exhaust pipe will not heat up.
hey guys
thanks for your input...much appreciated
i removed the plug from the cylinder and connected it to the ht lead, then earthed the plug and turned the engine over...no spark in the gap ( dunno if this is the best way to do this for a ducati but its a tried and tested vespa way )
i got the engine running again and disconnected the ht lead for the vertical cylinder...bike died
did the same for the horizontal cylinder...bike didnt die
next idea...swap over ht ignition coils and see if it is a simple ht lead problem...i had the same problem on my vespa actually which was cured with a new ht lead. it is a 1997 monster with original electrics etc so i wouldnt be suprised if these problems come up now and again. My vespa is a 1962!!!! model but is soooooo reliable!
again, your help is greatly appreciated
mike
Swapping parts is a great way to isolate the problem.
If you swap the black boxes be very careful. The connectors and pins are pretty fragile.
Constant no spark horizontal cylinder? Got an ohmmeter? Pick up coils (under alternator cover) should read 95-105 ohms. You will find the wires attached to the ignition modules in a 2 wire connector.
The coils should read:
Secondary circuit, tower to ground - 13.5 K o ±20%.
Primary circuit, small terminal to small terminal 4.5 0 ±15%.
Resistance of the terminal cap should be 5 K o. ± 10%.
The high tension lead may permanently attached to the coils.
There is a test procedure foe the ignition modules, but best and easiest is just switch them.
hey ducpainter and howie
thanks for the advice
i dont have an ohm meter...sounds like i should get one!
deffo an electrical problem....
swapped over ht leads tonight...fired up the bike and
BANG..THE biggest ever backfire I have ever ever heard ( in a small garage )... I fired a handgun at a gun club once but this was louder... people from domino`s pizza next door came running in to see what had happened!!!!
Did it run on both cylinders, or just clear all the fuel out of the horizontal and still run on one?
hey ducpainter
now it wont start!!!!
a dreaded trip to the ducati shop looms large on the horizon
i got 2 new ignition coils and ht leads.... standing at the back of the bike , looking towards the front, which coil ( left or right ) goes to the vertical cylinder and which one to the horizontal one?
thanks
mike
Just follow the coils and their leads to the cylinder it's going to. Also, just to check, what coils did you get? What's the ohms rating?
hey memper
i read on a topic on this site that the left coil goes to the vertical, right to the horizontal
i picked up 2 new igintion coils and ht leads... will have time to install them next week.
fingers crossed
update
changed ht cables, battery, spark plugs
bike wont start :P
i ordered an ohm meter , will be here soon.
any ideas as to next thing to check? cdi? regulator? having bad dreams now... wake up sweating after seeing the bill from the ducati shop!!!
Bringing the bike to a shop might not be such a bad idea. At this point you have replaced 2 coils with wires and are looking to replace more parts. CDIs are real expensive and the regulator is not your problem. You have been dealing with this for over two weeks now and turned the bike from allegedly running on one cylinder into a no start.
hey howie
got it going...had the ht leads on the wrong cylinders
BUT.... horizontal cylinder isnt firing still
Not cdi`s... swapped them round and both work fine, new ht cables and new battery
Its an electrical problem, a bad wire somewhere
problem is the Ducati shop is really expensive for what they do... for example they quoted me $170 dollars for an oil change!
my honda cbr oil change cost half that!
however, it looks like a trip there is on the cards....
i think the trouble might be the ignition pick up coils ( sensors )
the job insnt too difficult ( it seems ) but do you need to set them ( as they affect the timing, dont they ? )
Quote from: samuraibiker on April 18, 2015, 12:19:20 AM
hey howie
got it going...had the ht leads on the wrong cylinders
BUT.... horizontal cylinder isnt firing still
Not cdi`s... swapped them round and both work fine, new ht cables and new battery
Its an electrical problem, a bad wire somewhere
problem is the Ducati shop is really expensive for what they do... for example they quoted me $170 dollars for an oil change!
my honda cbr oil change cost half that!
however, it looks like a trip there is on the cards....
Great! when you get that ohmmeter you can check those pick ups, as per my previous post, 95-105 ohms. Replacement requires pulling the side cover on the alternator side. Not too difficult, but you need a puller to do the job. A cheap steering wheel puller would work fine, or you could even make one. From Ducati they come as a set with the bracket and are pricy. You can get individual pick ups from http://ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/trigger-pickup-coils (http://ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/trigger-pickup-coils) Do keep the side cover screw in order, they are different lengths. You need a non magnetic feeler gauge to adjust gap, which should be .6-.8mm. If you don't move the bracket the pick-ups are on, timing and gap will be as before. A manual would be a good idea. The Haynes should work for you.
You didn't say where you live, but see if there is a local board in this forum for your part of the world, post there and ask if there is a good independent shop.
He's in Japan.
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=67213.msg1243338#msg1243338 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=67213.msg1243338#msg1243338)
thanks Howie
i think I will check out the wiring to the pick ups before I buy new ones, after checking other forums, this seems to be a not so uncommon problem on the first monsters ( and even maybe SS bikes )
updates on the way!
cheers
mike
The wires goes from the wire to module to the pick ups. Yes, the problem could be a break in a wire and be repairable. Go for it!
ok...ordered haynes manual, new pick up coils, non magnetised feeler guages and crank case puller.
there is a good thread on here about doing the job but anyone else got any tips/ things to look out for?
thanks
mike
Quote from: samuraibiker on April 20, 2015, 05:55:43 AM
ok...ordered haynes manual, new pick up coils, non magnetised feeler guages and crank case puller.
there is a good thread on here about doing the job but anyone else got any tips/ things to look out for?
thanks
mike
I have a question. Please excuse any perceived sarcasm...
are you just replacing parts or are you testing the items you're replacing because you know they're bad?
There are many common issues on Ducati's, just like other bikes, but the older 2V bikes are really pretty simple if you follow the steps of diagnosing the issue. If you go much farther without diagnosing the real problem it may be tough to figure out what the problem actually is because you may have broken something else along the way.
I just don't want to see you get frustrated and cause yourself extra expense by getting it to a shop after spending money on unnecessary parts.
hey ducpainter
battery..old as the hills
ht coils/leads ..originals from 1997... got 2 almost new ones for peanuts
plugs ... NGK is one of my customers so get them for next to nothing
checked the wiring around the ignition area, no wiring problems there
switched over cdi`s ...not a problem there...
and after looking around on other forums, found other people had exactly the same problem and had happened in the exactly the same manner ..
http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/archive/index.php/t-48301.html (http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/archive/index.php/t-48301.html)
the bike is a 97 monster and I have had alot of experience with old vespas ( which have always given me electrical problenms ) so to be honest, it didnt hurt to change the ht leads/coils/ battery/plugs anyway
the tools /parts cost less than 200 dollars total so if it is the pick up coils then that is much much cheaper than going to the ducati shop. If it isnt the pick up coils, then I am totally stumped!!! [bang]
Quote from: samuraibiker on April 20, 2015, 03:52:31 PM
If it isnt the pick up coils, then I am totally stumped!!! [bang]
i believe dp's point is that if it's not the pick up coils, which you could have determined with a simple resistance test, then you would move on to the next component in the component train. no need to be stumped.
Quote from: brad black on April 20, 2015, 04:03:06 PM
i believe dp's point is that if it's not the pick up coils, which you could have determined with a simple resistance test, then you would move on to the next component in the component train. no need to be stumped.
nailed it.
success!!!
was the pick up coil... this thread was invaluable
http://www.ducatimonster.org/forums/tech/153043-pickup-coil-repair-replacement-pictures.html (http://www.ducatimonster.org/forums/tech/153043-pickup-coil-repair-replacement-pictures.html)
big thanks to everyone who commented... i saved around 300 dollars doing it myself and learnt alot at the same time.
granted a simple ohm meter test could have confirmed the coil problem earlier [thumbsup]
next job...replace stock airfilters with twin k&n airfilters
Quote from: samuraibiker on April 26, 2015, 08:13:56 PM
success!!!
was the pick up coil... this thread was invaluable
http://www.ducatimonster.org/forums/tech/153043-pickup-coil-repair-replacement-pictures.html (http://www.ducatimonster.org/forums/tech/153043-pickup-coil-repair-replacement-pictures.html)
big thanks to everyone who commented... i saved around 300 dollars doing it myself and learnt alot at the same time.
granted a simple ohm meter test could have confirmed the coil problem earlier [thumbsup]
next job...replace stock airfilters with twin k&n airfilters
The bike won't run well unless you re-jet the carbs.
hey ducpainter
thanks, will do... did the same thing to my vespa...bogged like crazy...ran rich as hell...fouled the plug constantly... bigger main jet cured the problem
Make sure you ride it before you just start replacing jets.
The carbs are not all that easy to get to.
Most people get a kit either from Dyno-Jet or Factory Pro.
Hi All,
Thought I'd post here since I'm dealing with the same issue and just want to confirm, is this the individual pick up coil I need to order: http://ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/part/21-509/OTlEdWM3NTBNT05TVEVS (http://ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/part/21-509/OTlEdWM3NTBNT05TVEVS)? I haven't pulled the cover yet to access the sensor so I don't have a visual.
thanks all
That's it
Thanks Nate
ok... so I changed one of the pick up coils as you know... had big trouble trying to get the bike to run well
finally gave in and took it to the ducati dealer ( ducati minoh osaka )
its the carb they said
no...its the pick up coil i replied
ok, we`ll look at it.
FOUR weeks later....
we checked the carb and gave it an overhaul ( which i did not authorise them to do ) and it is the pick up coil so we changed it
what??? it just needs setting up properly
another two weeks later
well, we changed it anyway and the total cost is 89.000 yen ( about 400 UK sterling )
WTF?????
so i contacted a lawyer and ducati italy and am taking legal action against them.
it turns out that many official ducati dealers in japan are pretty crap ( like fiat or alfa romeo dealers )
real shame because it has really turned me off ducati ( just like my old alfa 147 gta...great car but what a pain to maintain )
and when I do get the bike back its going up for sale....
moral of the story..... if in japan, stick to japanese bikes :(
there are some very well informed people on this forum and if you live near anyone who is good with ducatis treat them better than your wife ( or husband )!
mike
ok...now some closure... after our family legal eagle got on the phone and read the riot act I got a phone call from them...they arent going to charge me for the carb overhaul... so the bill was dropped to 59,000 yen... acceptable...
the pick up coil that I bought on ebay is apparently a different shape to the oem one and is very difficult to set right they said. the oem dropped in, air gap set correctly and bike ran perfectly straight away.
i do admit it was rather exhilarating on the duc compared to my vespa or suzuki......
anyway, case dismissed, court rules in favor of plaintiff, as they say.....