Ducati Monster Forum

Moto Board => Tech => Topic started by: stopintime on June 30, 2015, 02:26:53 PM

Title: Valve damage
Post by: stopintime on June 30, 2015, 02:26:53 PM
Once in a while I enjoy my engine, but seldom for long...

Now it won't start easily or idle well.

Dealer mechanic thought he could see a gap in the intake manifold (?) and starting fluid proved him correct.
Turns out the engine builder didn't bother to install O-rings.
Installing O-rings didn't help, so...

Leak down test at horizontal 2%  [thumbsup]
Leak down test at vertical 90%  [bang]

Theory is that false air has created a combustion chamber environmnet which is 'eating' valves.
Plugs were fine though - maybe a little less chocolate than desired, but the same on both cylinders.

Dropping the exhaust valve low enough to see it through the plug hole shows a piece missing.

I will pull the head tomorrow to inspect further.

(will I need to remove the cam cover to get to the head nuts?)

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l394/stopintime/Valve%20002_zpszcxdjy8n.jpg)

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l394/stopintime/Valve%20009_zpslf57ht7z.jpg)

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l394/stopintime/Valve%20003_zpswrtoe8va.jpg)

Title: Re: Valve damage
Post by: koko64 on June 30, 2015, 03:57:59 PM
Sorry to hear. Absolute shame.

A ground down ring spanner may fit with some wiggling.
Title: Re: Valve damage
Post by: ungeheuer on July 01, 2015, 04:35:45 AM
Bugger.

Sorry that your beloved machine isn't returning the affection  :-\

Hope it's not too gruesome once you get in there.
Title: Re: Valve damage
Post by: stopintime on July 01, 2015, 02:15:56 PM
(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l394/stopintime/Valve%20004_zpsywhsmzs6.jpg)

Some light scratches on the valve seat - probably repairable without removing/replacing it....

At the moment there are conflicting theories about why and how this happened  [roll]

Title: Re: Valve damage
Post by: ducpainter on July 01, 2015, 02:23:02 PM
The pitting on that valve says pretty hot to me.

You need a bigger motor...or a new engine builder.
Title: Re: Valve damage
Post by: stopintime on July 01, 2015, 03:24:44 PM
Quote from: ducpainter on July 01, 2015, 02:23:02 PM
The pitting on that valve says pretty hot to me.
..............

Interesting observation  [thumbsup]


Quote from: ducpainter on July 01, 2015, 02:23:02 PM
.........
You need a bigger motor...or a new engine builder.

Probably both  8)



Title: Re: Valve damage
Post by: koko64 on July 01, 2015, 03:27:37 PM
Quite a chip with sharp edges. :-\
Title: Re: Valve damage
Post by: Howie on July 01, 2015, 03:51:25 PM
Strange, the damage looks like pretty hot, but lean usually is accompanied by light colored deposits.  Too narrow to be a valve that wasn't closing.  Seems like too many miles since the work to be poor workmanship.  Maybe something imbedded in the seat? 
Title: Re: Valve damage
Post by: stopintime on July 01, 2015, 04:08:15 PM
Quote from: howie on July 01, 2015, 03:51:25 PM
Strange, the damage looks like pretty hot, but lean usually is accompanied by light colored deposits.  Too narrow to be a valve that wasn't closing.  Seems like too many miles since the work to be poor workmanship.  Maybe something imbedded in the seat? 

If the lean condition was for ~ a week - would even that color it whiter?

Engine builder says too long since last adjustment, but it's only 4,000km since it was rebuild.

Nothing to see in the seat - could something have been there for a short while?
Title: Re: Valve damage
Post by: ducpainter on July 02, 2015, 03:42:48 AM
How long did it run with no compression after the valve burned?
Title: Re: Valve damage
Post by: stopintime on July 02, 2015, 03:58:48 AM
The gradual problems with difficult cold start and rough idle is a couple of weeks / 1,000km old - as far as I can remember. Clearly much worse the last day before service.

I don't know, but maybe the dark color is deceptive... lean, but camouflaged by the last rough/slow miles with low compression/bad combustion...  ???
Title: Re: Valve damage
Post by: ducpainter on July 02, 2015, 04:03:46 AM
Quote from: stopintime on July 02, 2015, 03:58:48 AM
<snip>

I don't know, but maybe the dark color is deceptive... lean, but camouflaged by the last rough/slow miles with low compression/bad combustion...  ???
That's what I'm thinking.
Title: Re: Valve damage
Post by: Howie on July 02, 2015, 06:44:47 AM
Makes sense.
Title: Re: Valve damage
Post by: Langanobob on July 02, 2015, 11:28:07 AM
Quote from: stopint.ime on July 01, 2015, 04:08:15 PM
If the lean condition was for ~ a week - would even that color it whiter?

Engine builder says too long since last adjustment, but it's only 4,000km since it was rebuild.

Nothing to see in the seat - could something have been there for a short while?

Maybe I'm missing something but what does the engine builder say about failing to properly install the intake manifolds?  Seems to me it's a clear cut case (if there is such a thing) of running too lean due to intake manifold air leakage causing the exhaust valve to get too hot and eventually burn.  I'd hope the engine builder would make it right.   
Title: Re: Valve damage
Post by: NAKID on July 02, 2015, 01:21:16 PM
Quote from: Langanobob on July 02, 2015, 11:28:07 AM
Maybe I'm missing something but what does the engine builder say about failing to properly install the intake manifolds?  Seems to me it's a clear cut case (if there is such a thing) of running too lean due to intake manifold air leakage causing the exhaust valve to get too hot and eventually burn.  I'd hope the engine builder would make it right.   

And by make it right I would ask for them to pay another builder, not do the work themselves. I wouldn't trust them...
Title: Re: Valve damage
Post by: Speeddog on July 03, 2015, 02:31:27 PM
Looks like a fairly standard burned valve.
I'll run the pic past my cylinder head gurus.

Got a pic of the top of the piston?
I'm surprised the piston survived longer than the valve.

Does it still have opener clearance?
Title: Re: Valve damage
Post by: stopintime on July 03, 2015, 02:56:11 PM
No piston picture. It's mostly black - if not all black. I remember seeing a patch of bare metal through the plug hole, but can't remember noticing it when I lifted the head. None of us noticed anything unusual...

Opener and closer clearance 'within spec' (didn't write it down)
Title: Re: Valve damage
Post by: stopintime on July 07, 2015, 10:58:12 AM
Piston: can't see any damage. The soot(?)/carbon build up just under the valves were flaking off - peeled off easily.


(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l394/stopintime/stempel%20001_zpsii05p4y9.jpg)

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l394/stopintime/stempel%20002_zpshp9at0uj.jpg)
Title: Re: Valve damage
Post by: Speeddog on July 07, 2015, 12:42:06 PM
The exhaust valve sheds heat through it's contact with the seat, and through the stem into the guide.
Anything that compromises the contact of the valve to the seat, prevents that area of the valve shedding heat to the seat.

The laundry list:

Debris; carbon, dirt, etc.
Valve slightly out of round.
A scratch on the valve face.
Valve slightly bent.
If the seat was replaced, and not quite pressed all the way in, it can move and thus compromise the contact.

My head guru commented that there's a lot of carbon buildup for such low mileage after rebuild.
   
Title: Re: Valve damage
Post by: stopintime on July 07, 2015, 01:45:24 PM
Thanks for helping  [thumbsup]

The rebuild was a warranty/scam job for cases and I can't confirm that the heads/pistons were cleaned. Valves were changed and guides were confirmed ok. Trust is at an all time low, so I don't know what to believe...

I'll deal with them however I can, but I'm not going public with any of it. Yet. PM me if curious.

Title: Re: Valve damage
Post by: stopintime on July 09, 2015, 11:05:08 AM
Valve replaced, seat freshened and runs well - we just started it and listened for odd noises - I will test ride tomorrow and take it from there.

:-\ /  [thumbsup] /  [Dolph]
Title: Re: Valve damage
Post by: koko64 on July 11, 2015, 09:58:32 PM
Glad that worked. Still running ok?
Title: Re: Valve damage
Post by: stopintime on July 12, 2015, 01:45:56 AM
Quote from: koko64 on July 11, 2015, 09:58:32 PM
Glad that worked. Still running ok?

Yes  :)

Fingers crossed and all that  [Dolph]