Hi! Look at my photos. What can you say about the condition of this piston rings? Earlier I wrote here about oil consumption: http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=71329.msg1317536#msg1317536 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=71329.msg1317536#msg1317536)
In the manual is written that piston rings must be 0,020 mm ÷ 0,052 mm (0,055 mm) but the max. allowed wear limit is of 0,10 mm! Why such a spread? Between 0.052 mm (or 0,055 mm) and 0,10 mm huge difference! Or I did not understand something? How to understand the condition of the my piston rings. Later I will look valve guides and valve stem seals but now i want to know conition of my piston rings.
http://ipic.su/img/img7/fs/Snimok.1443281773.jpg (http://ipic.su/img/img7/fs/Snimok.1443281773.jpg)
http://ipic.su/img/img7/fs/IMG_3340.1443281257.jpg (http://ipic.su/img/img7/fs/IMG_3340.1443281257.jpg)
http://ipic.su/img/img7/fs/IMG_3341.1443281281.jpg (http://ipic.su/img/img7/fs/IMG_3341.1443281281.jpg)
http://ipic.su/img/img7/fs/IMG_3342.1443281295.jpg (http://ipic.su/img/img7/fs/IMG_3342.1443281295.jpg)
http://ipic.su/img/img7/fs/IMG_3345.1443281311.jpg (http://ipic.su/img/img7/fs/IMG_3345.1443281311.jpg)
http://ipic.su/img/img7/fs/IMG_3347.1443281331.jpg (http://ipic.su/img/img7/fs/IMG_3347.1443281331.jpg)
http://ipic.su/img/img7/fs/IMG_3348.1443281347.jpg (http://ipic.su/img/img7/fs/IMG_3348.1443281347.jpg)
They look like they have few nicks , deep scratches from here . but what is your ring gap inside the jug ...! That will require removing the rings to measure ..
And honestly if it was my bike and i got that far i will be looking into few thing :
The cylinder Wall
Measure the cylinder wall with run out gauge
Check your Ring gap inside the wall .. This will answer plenty of your questions
I will also clean the piston surgically clean
New Piston wrest clip .
Check the head , Valve seat while you at it
Also what is you cylinder wall looks like and what does it measure .
Measurement is the answer to all your concern not how things LOOK
Quote from: R1racer on September 28, 2015, 05:59:01 AM
Make sure to use the piston to drive the rings inside the cylinder to measure the gap this way they go even
Quote from: R1racer on September 28, 2015, 05:57:49 AM
They look like they have few nicks , deep scratches from here . but what is your ring gap inside the jug ...! That will require removing the rings to measure ..
And honestly if it was my bike and i got that far i will be looking into few thing :
The cylinder Wall
Measure the cylinder wall with run out gauge
Check your Ring gap inside the wall .. This will answer plenty of your questions
I will also clean the piston surgically clean
New Piston wrest clip .
Check the head , Valve seat while you at it
My ring gap inside the jug = 0,4 mm. What do you think about it?
(http://ipic.su/img/img7/fs/Snimok.1443647990.jpg)
Quote from: Dimon26 on September 30, 2015, 02:20:11 PM
My ring gap inside the jug = 0,4 mm. What do you think about it?
Run it.
Be very careful with the rings when putting the pistons back in the bores.
Especially the oil rings, they're quite fragile.
Quote from: Speeddog on September 30, 2015, 03:44:13 PM
Run it.
Be very careful with the rings when putting the pistons back in the bores.
Especially the oil rings, they're quite fragile.
Thank you for the answer. I decided to change the rings [thumbsup]
Quote from: Ducatista26 on October 15, 2015, 11:32:14 AM
Thank you for the answer. I decided to change the rings [thumbsup]
Sorry for being negative but it's not a sure thing that new rings will improve your already good compression and oil consumption. Chances are the new rings will never seat as good as the old rings and you'll end up with less compression and more oil consumption.
Bob
Quote from: Langanobob on October 23, 2015, 07:28:07 AM
Sorry for being negative but it's not a sure thing that new rings will improve your already good compression and oil consumption. Chances are the new rings will never seat as good as the old rings and you'll end up with less compression and more oil consumption.
Bob
Thanks for your opinion. I will solve this question with the help of your answers [coffee]
Quote from: Ducatista26 on October 23, 2015, 02:11:07 PM
Thanks for your opinion. I will solve this question with the help of your answers [coffee]
For what it's worth...
Bob is correct unless you take all the right steps to properly prepare the Nikasil to allow the new rings to seat.
Quote from: ducpainter on October 23, 2015, 02:20:59 PM
For what it's worth...
Bob is correct unless you take all the right steps to properly prepare the Nikasil to allow the new rings to seat.
My gaps of oil rings in the cylinders = 1,3 - 1,5 mm. It is so much :(In the manual written that the gap must be 0,3 - 0,6 mm and max. allowed gap for oil rings = 1 mm so put my old oil rings in the cylinders = doesn't make sense.
Quote from: Ducatista26 on October 24, 2015, 12:18:30 AM
My gaps of oil rings in the cylinders = 1,3 - 1,5 mm. It is so much :(In the manual written that the gap must be 0,3 - 0,6 mm and max. allowed gap for oil rings = 1 mm so put my old oil rings in the cylinders = doesn't make sense.
End gap doesn't contribute as much to oil consumption and compression leakage as poor seating, and you haven't convinced us you actually have a problem with consumption, compression, or performance.
While that oil ring might be out of spec wrt end gap you're setting yourself up for more issues. Have you determined what kind of piston clearance you have, or the diameter of the bore? Just deciding to replace rings because the end gap is out of spec is no insurance you will solve what everyone here considers a non problem.
Quote from: ducpainter on October 24, 2015, 05:11:59 AM
End gap doesn't contribute as much to oil consumption and compression leakage as poor seating, and you haven't convinced us you actually have a problem with consumption, compression, or performance.
While that oil ring might be out of spec wrt end gap you're setting yourself up for more issues. Have you determined what kind of piston clearance you have, or the diameter of the bore? Just deciding to replace rings because the end gap is out of spec is no insurance you will solve what everyone here considers a non problem.
I determined piston clearance and diameter of the bore. They are in the normal range. So I think that end gap of oil rings influence on oil consumption. My oil consumption before repairing was equal to 300 mm on 1000 miles. Also I watched valve guides and stem seals. Stem seals I already bought. Valve guides have very very small gaps so I think that new stem seals will not allow to flow the oil in the engine. I can record all this operations with gaps on the camera if someone it can help me to solve my question.
300 ml/ 1000 miles is not enough consumption to warrant a rebuild, or even investigation IMO.
You obviously feel differently, so go right ahead and do what you want. It's clear we're not going to dissuade you.
Quote from: ducpainter on October 24, 2015, 07:04:58 AM
300 ml/ 1000 miles is not enough consumption to warrant a rebuild, or even investigation IMO.
You obviously feel differently, so go right ahead and do what you want. It's clear we're not going to dissuade you.
I got confused ;D I want to do that my engine feel itself better and assemble the engine with old parts (piston rings and others) I both do not want but your opinion force me to think about all of this situation [coffee] So for a start I want to search rings at an affordable price if it possible. Then decide what I must to do. Because to buy EXPENSIVE new rings and (thinking about your opinions) make worse it is very COOL ;D
Thank you for answers!
Quote from: ducpainter on October 24, 2015, 07:04:58 AM
300 ml/ 1000 miles is not enough consumption to warrant a rebuild, or even investigation IMO.
You obviously feel differently, so go right ahead and do what you want. It's clear we're not going to dissuade you.
Hi again. Look at the picture please. How to understand it? Coupling Clearance = 0,25÷0,045 mm and max. clearance = 0,12 mm. Why is max. clearance less than normal clearance? I do not understand it ??? Maybe it mistake? ;D
(http://ipic.su/img/img7/fs/Snimok.1445950433.jpg)
Quote from: Ducatista26 on October 27, 2015, 05:59:29 AM
Hi again. Look at the picture please. How yo understand it? Coupling Clearance = 0,25÷0,045 and max. clearance = 0,12 mm. Why is max. clearance less than normal clearance. I do not understand it ???
(http://ipic.su/img/img7/fs/Snimok.1445950433.jpg)
There's a misprint on the metric dimensions. It should read .025 + .045. The inch dimensions are correct.
.0023 inches is optimum and .0047" is max.
Quote from: ducpainter on October 27, 2015, 06:06:25 AM
There's a misprint on the metric dimensions. It should read .025 + .045. The inch dimensions are correct.
.0023 inches is optimum and .0047" is max.
Thanks! And what do you think about it. If this clearance is more than max. allowed. So new rings will not help in this situation? I properly understanding your opinion in this topic?
Quote from: Ducatista26 on October 27, 2015, 06:15:16 AM
Thank! And what do you think about it. If this clearance is more than max. allowed. So new rings will not help in this situation? I properly understand your opinios in this topic?
If you have more than the allowed clearance new rings would be a complete waste of money.It used to be that Ducati had pistons that were designated A and B. The A pistons would be used in cylinders that were closer to the lower end of tolerance, and the B pistons used in cylinders that were at the upper end. Are your piston crowns marked with a letter? Have you measured the bore or the pistons using the appropriate tool?
This type of measuring requires specialized equipment. You can't guess.
Quote from: ducpainter on October 27, 2015, 06:21:52 AM
If you have more than the allowed clearance new rings would be a complete waste of money.It used to be that Ducati had pistons that were designated A and B. The A pistons would be used in cylinders that were closer to the lower end of tolerance, and the B pistons used in cylinders that were at the upper end. Are your piston crowns marked with a letter? Have you measured the bore or the pistons using the appropriate tool?
This type of measuring requires specialized equipment. You can't guess.
It is my piston. In my opinion - do not marked.
(http://ipic.su/img/img7/fs/IMG_3380.1445952901.jpg)
I'll have to check a set I have, but I think that's a B piston.
Have you had the dimensions checked by someone with the proper tools?
Quote from: ducpainter on October 27, 2015, 06:39:48 AM
I'll have to check a set I have, but I think that's a B piston.
Have you had the dimensions checked by someone with the proper tools?
Today I will check clearance and write you about it. But I think that clearance is more than max. allowed. On your experience these years (95-98) all of Monsters have such problems like me? Or just me not lucked.
Quote from: Ducatista26 on October 27, 2015, 06:47:42 AM
Today I will check clearance and write you about it. But I think that clearance is more than max. allowed. On your experience these years (95-98) all of Monsters have such problems like me? Or just me not lucked.
What tools are you going to use to check? To get accurate info you need micrometers and bore gauges...not just feeler gauges.
You're the one that thinks there is a problem.
I think you should put it back together and run it.
My piston-cylinder coupling is 0,15 mm. It is more than max. allowed (0,12 mm) :(
Quote from: ducpainter on October 27, 2015, 07:01:45 AM
What tools are you going to use to check? To get accurate info you need micrometers and bore gauges...not just feeler gauges.
You're the one that thinks there is a problem.
I think you should put it back together and run it.
Yet only have feeler gauges.
Quote from: ducpainter on October 27, 2015, 07:01:45 AM
I think you should put it back together and run it.
It seems you are right. Otherwise I must to change the whole engine ;D
Feeler gauges are not the best way to determine the part that is out of spec...if it's really out of spec.
You tore your engine down for excessive oil consumption when there was not really a problem. 300 ml in 1K miles is perfectly normal for these engines. It's why they'll last for 300K with proper care. You didn't have a compression problem, and you never took a leakdown test to determine where the little compression you thought you lost was going.
You didn't replace valve seals, which is most likely the cause of what little consumption you were experiencing, before you tore it down.
Now you're basing your thoughts on the least accurate method of measuring.
My advice to you is to either take your parts to a machine shop to get them measured correctly and then make a decision, or put it back together with new valve seals and see what kind of results you get.
My 96 will burn a pint in 1000 miles and I don't worry about it a bit. It starts and runs good, doesn't foul plugs, and is fun to ride.
Good luck.
One question...are you an engineer? :P
Quote from: ducpainter on October 27, 2015, 07:13:55 AM
Feeler gauges are not the best way to determine the part that is out of spec...if it's really out of spec.
You tore your engine down for excessive oil consumption when there was not really a problem. 300 ml in 1K miles is perfectly normal for these engines. It's why they'll last for 300K with proper care. You didn't have a compression problem, and you never took a leakdown test to determine where the little compression you thought you lost was going.
You didn't replace valve seals, which is most likely the cause of what little consumption you were experiencing, before you tore it down.
Now you're basing your thoughts on the least accurate method of measuring.
My advice to you is to either take your parts to a machine shop to get them measured correctly and then make a decision, or put it back together with new valve seals and see what kind of results you get.
My 96 will burn a pint in 1000 miles and I don't worry about it a bit. It starts and runs good, doesn't foul plugs, and is fun to ride.
Good luck.
One question...are you an engineer? :P
No ;D Why do you think so? :)
Quote from: Ducatista26 on October 27, 2015, 07:47:25 AM
No ;D Why do you think so? :)
I don't necessarily think so. It was just a question because many engineers can't leave well enough alone and feel the need to explore the cause of everything be it a problem or not.
Quote from: ducpainter on October 27, 2015, 07:50:14 AM
I don't necessarily think so. It was just a question because many engineers can't leave well enough alone and feel the need to explore the cause of everything be it a problem or not.
Nonetheless my end gaps of oil rings in the cylinders = 1,3 mm when max. allowed in the manual = 1 mm [bow_down]
Quote from: ducpainter on October 27, 2015, 07:50:14 AM
I don't necessarily think so. It was just a question because many engineers can't leave well enough alone and feel the need to explore the cause of everything be it a problem or not.
Tell me please it is true information (gaps) for my M900? Look at the picture.
(http://ipic.su/img/img7/fs/Snimok.1445958836.jpg)
Quote from: Ducatista26 on October 27, 2015, 07:57:09 AM
Nonetheless my end gaps of oil rings in the cylinders = 1,3 mm when max. allowed in the manual = 1 mm [bow_down]
Whether that's the huge issue you're making it out to be or not...
you don't know if the rings, the cylinder, or the guy that installed and set the end gap is the problem and you won't until you have all the parts measured with the correct tools.
Quote from: Dmitry on October 27, 2015, 08:14:10 AM
Tell me please it is true information (gaps) for my M900? Look at the picture.
(http://ipic.su/img/img7/fs/Snimok.1445958836.jpg)
...are you going to believe what I tell you, or are you going to chase unicorns?
Quote from: ducpainter on October 27, 2015, 08:15:27 AM
Whether that's the huge issue you're making it out to be or not...
you don't know if the rings, the cylinder, or the guy that installed and set the end gap is the problem and you won't until you have all the parts measured with the correct tools.
...are you going to believe what I tell you, or are you going to chase unicorns?
One question. It is true information about valve gaps? It is all what i ask you now. Because in Internet I see different information about valve gaps ???
Those are the specs from Ducati for your year. Ducati relaxed the specs in later years to reduce the perceived cost of maintenance.
They run best with the intake openers set to .004, exhaust openers set to .005, and all closers set as close to .000 as possible without any drag.
Do what you will.
Quote from: ducpainter on October 27, 2015, 08:36:09 AM
Those are the specs from Ducati for your year. Ducati relaxed the specs in later years to reduce the perceived cost of maintenance.
They run best with the intake openers set to .004, exhaust openers set to .005, and all closers set as close to .000 as possible without any drag.
Do what you will.
Thanks!