I have a 2011 monster 696 with ABS and I recently modded my braking system.
- I got the calipers powder coated.
- Installed Spiegler brake lines that are the exact length of the OEM lines.
- I installed Rizoma Feel Levers.
After the install the front brake is spongy and I can't seem to get proper system pressure. Just to be on the safe side I had the calibers rebuilt with new seals that I had to order from Powerhouse in the UK.
After I installed everything I just can't seem to get the front brake to build up full pressure. It's not too bad, but not perfect either. I took it to the dealer and they spent 5 hours trying to bleed the system with no luck. I just got back from the custom motorcycle shop that rebuilt the calipers and they couldn't figure it out either.
The dealer said that it's from getting the calipers coated, but all the pistons extend and retract fine. Besides everyone I talked too said that they never heard of calipers failing from being properly coated (which these were).
Just wondering if anyone has had an issue like this before and if they have a fix. The dealer said I may have to replace the calipers, but I don't think that's the problem. Any technique I could try to get the air out?
By they way I used a mityvac and the old fashion pump method with no luck. I was thinking about positive pressure method, but not sure how to do that. Can't find the tools needed for that.
I'll try to help:
1. open brake reservoir
2. place close end of 11mm wrench on bleed nipple
3. connect hose to LH brake caliper
4. open about 1/4 turn the bleed nipple
5. do nothing for now
6. close bleed nipple
7. open bleed nipple, pump 2 to 3 times on brake lever
8. close bleed nipple while brake lever is closest to steering bar
9. check fluid level, refill if necessary
10. pump 3 times hold on 4th open bleed nipple, repeat at least 3 times
>>> by this time you should be getting some preasure
11. repeat on RH side
ALWAYS CHECK FLUID LEVEL!!!
Use quality DOT4 brake fluid
Powdercoated brake? Heated up? That doesnt sound good to me
DarkMonster620: Thanks bud. I'll give that a try. I never had problems bleeding before and both the dealer and custom shop guy had trouble. I'm going to keep the lever depressed over night and bleed again in the morning. Like I said it's not too bad. Just a bit spongy. The dealer said it was the calipers, but he said that before there was a problem. I called to order seals for the rebuild and he told me not to get the coating because I would have problems. I already had them done so I didn't have a choice after he told me. The thing is I check the calipers and all pistons are engaging a retracting fine, so I doubt it is a problem with the powder coating. I'm thinking there is an air bubble stuck somewhere are the levers just need some more adjusting. I'll let you know how your procedure turns out. Thanks again.
Raux: Yeah I was worried about that before. I thought that after the dealer said I would have issues and the only thing I could think of was that the powder coating would hold heat which would bill the brake fluid and put air in the system. However, this problem was going on before I even rode the bike. It actually seems to get better after I ride it a bit. Maybe it's a combo of adjusting the lever and bleeding some more.
In addition to what Carlos said, wire tie around the lever and grip, applying the brake overnight. Also the master should be as close to level as possible while bleeding. You did make sure the calipers do not leak?
LionsGrip, re-reading your first post, how is the "free play adjuster" from the lever:
*Do you have excesive free play? >>> if YES, adjust to minimize free play; if NO, adjust to have free play
somewhere in the forum there are pics regarding this issue
Howie: I was told to try that by the last service place and I will give it a shot tonight. I was also told to leave the master cylinder open when I do it. I was wondering if that would be a problem because I was told that dot 4 sucks up moisture which will lead to the system getting spongy again. Do I leave the MC open over night and just pull new fluid in the system after I get the air out?
Yeah the calipers aren't leaking as far as I can tell and the service guy gave them a once over. So I don't think that they are the problem. Also, I noticed today that I had trouble finding neutral and fixed it by pumping the clutch. If I'm having the same trouble with both the front brake and clutch it has to be the lines, the levers, or air finding its way into the system. I'll tighten everything up. Replace the gaskets and give it a good bleed again.
Dark: I did find that it helped adjusting the levers, but it didn't fix it all the way. Right now I have the levers all the way out. I find that it lets me build up pressure by having more lever travel. I also saw some air bubbles through the MC window when I pump the brake. I'm starting to think that the gaskets are bad and are letting air in the system. Although at this point its all a guess. I'll keep trying and let the lever sit over night.
Were the calipers disassembled for the powdercoating?
Were all mating faces of the calipers masked prior to powdercoat?
Mating faces being: where the two halves touch, bores for the pistons, surface where the banjo bolt/crush washer sits, bleeder screw bore, around the bolt holes where the faces of the bolts touch the caliper half, etc.
Speeddog: Yeah. I did a double check of all those parts. I was extremely paranoid about the powder coating after the one guy said I would have problems. It looked to me that they cleaned all the parts well and only coated the areas that should be coated. The calipers themselves were pretty straight forward. The only problem I had was finding replacement seals. I got new ones from a place in UK and they looked good to me. I had the calipers put back together at a custom shop just to make sure I didn't screw anything up.
I was worried that the problem was coming from the calipers as well, but the two main reasons I don't thin they are the culprit now are:
1: The rear caliper was coated as well and it is working fine. I still have the stock lines on the rear, so I don't know if the lines may be the problem. I can't see how because they are Speigler lines and I sent them my OEM lines to make sure everything was measured out and done right. From what I heard they are a good brand of line, but this is my first time so I don't know.
2: I seem to have trouble with both the clutch and front brake. If it was the calipers than the clutch wouldn't be having issues as well.
I'm hoping that when I replace the gaskets and and double check the levers it will be fixed after another bleed.
One other thing is that I did use new ducati OEM washers instead of the washers spiegler sent. I can't see any leaks, but the box said to use the spiegler washers. Could it really be the washers? Also, I'm using spieler banjo bolts on the MC instead of the OEM ones. Should I switch those back to OEM?
When you replace lines it can be a bear to get all the air out. Small bubbles form on the walls of the tubing and don't release easily causing difficulty bleeding.
Try tapping the lines to dislodge the bubbles and get them to go to the top.
Also try the tie wrap trick overnight.
Did you bleed the master cylinder? I had a similar issue with my front and bleeding the master fixed it.
Quote from: SpikeC on October 30, 2015, 04:14:11 PM
Did you bleed the master cylinder? I had a similar issue with my front and bleeding the master fixed it.
The coffin style masters don't have a bleeder. He could try cracking the banjo bolt to get some air out.
Quote from: Lions Grip on October 30, 2015, 10:10:43 AM
Howie: I was told to try that by the last service place and I will give it a shot tonight. I was also told to leave the master cylinder open when I do it. I was wondering if that would be a problem because I was told that dot 4 sucks up moisture which will lead to the system getting spongy again. Do I leave the MC open over night and just pull new fluid in the system after I get the air out?
Yeah the calipers aren't leaking as far as I can tell and the service guy gave them a once over. So I don't think that they are the problem. Also, I noticed today that I had trouble finding neutral and fixed it by pumping the clutch. If I'm having the same trouble with both the front brake and clutch it has to be the lines, the levers, or air finding its way into the system. I'll tighten everything up. Replace the gaskets and give it a good bleed again.
Dark: I did find that it helped adjusting the levers, but it didn't fix it all the way. Right now I have the levers all the way out. I find that it lets me build up pressure by having more lever travel. I also saw some air bubbles through the MC window when I pump the brake. I'm starting to think that the gaskets are bad and are letting air in the system. Although at this point its all a guess. I'll keep trying and let the lever sit over night.
Cover on overnight. You are opening a pot, and trapped air in the master will try to rise to the surface. There won't be much. Back bleeding is accomplished by taking a syringe and injecting fluid through the brake bleeder when you open the bleeder valve. Open, inject, close, was, rinse, repeat. Here is an example of a store bought kit. You can mahttps://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?ei=UTF-8&type=avastbcl&hspart=avast&hsimp=yhs-corp&p=brake+back+bleeding+kit You can make one yourself with a syringe and some clear hose. A perfect seal is vital.
Brake bleeding, in theory, is simple. Sometimes, in real life, not so much. Trying to get the master as level as possible is very important, otherwise air can stay trapped in the master. If there is any leakage at the calipers that is your problem. Unfortunately you may have a leak that is small enough to allow air in, but not allow fluid out. Lever getting worse over time would be a good indication.
My experience with vacuum bleeding is it is fantastic for changing brake fluid and getting most of the air out after opening a system. Of, it is also important to pump the lever s l o w l y so you don't turn big air bubbles into little air bubbles.
Ok so I'll be honest, I didnt read every post above so if its repetitive i apologize. One thing I learned from my experience is the ABS system can hold and trap a lot of air. I solved this by putting banjo bleeders directly on the ABS unit. I have a 1100 evo and they fit snugly below the tank.
You do it once and then you're set in the future.Since you replaced the lines, you may have introduced air into the unit.
Quote from: EEL on October 31, 2015, 05:50:25 AM
Ok so I'll be honest, I didnt read every post above so if its repetitive i apologize. <snip>
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8686/16451318013_8f3d494e08_o.gif)
Your reply wasn't repetitive...I just couldn't resist. ;D
Alright so I think everything worked out. I gave the lines and calipers and good tap to get any air up the lines. I left the levers engaged over night with the MC open and it seems to be good now. I did notice some fluid leaking from the MC screws. Just to be safe I order new gaskets and MC covers. I'm a bit ticked off that the dealer spent 4 hours trying to do this and ending up blaming me for powder coating the calipers, but what are you going to do. They also snapped one of the tabs on my panels putting the screws in, but Atleast it looks good now.
Thanks a bunch guys for all the help. I was braking like the Flintstones for a bit there.
It isn't abnormal for fluid to wick up the screws when you remove and re-install the covers. Chances are it will stop really soon.
Glad it worked. I would have thought they did a good bleed job before telling you theres an issue. Thats why I presumed it was the caliper halves not mating properly
Reality is, if enough heat was applied, the calipers could have been the problem. Glad everything worked out.
So I've been busy and haven't had to time give an update, but still have Air in line. Everything worked for a bit but now I have same problem. I'm going to remove levers just incase that fixs the problem. I was wondering if there was a method to determine if air is getting in through the piston seals in the caliper. I could only get after market seals from Powerhouse in UK. They had OEM seals for the rear caliper and that seems fine. I'm thinking that may be the problem, but the front doesn't appear to be leaking. If I spray water on the pistons and pump the brakes would air bubbles form? I figure it would work like testing a tire for leaks.
I wouldn't do the water idea. The air would be going in, not out. I know nothing about this company Powerhouse in the UK, but if they sell in the western European market, quality should be good. Do they guarantee the fitment of the seals?
I really wonder if those calipers arent warped and the faces aren't mating properly.
Good point. Straight edge or surface plate will answer that once they are apart. If they are not leaking they can 't be warped beyond use.
Not leaking as far as I can tell. When I get a chance I will take them off. A factory tech guy on another forum said that I need to raise the rear caliper above the abs unit and bleed the air out, then repeat for the front. I'll get it working eventually (fingers crossed)
Quote from: Lions Grip on November 13, 2015, 03:51:33 PM
Not leaking as far as I can tell. When I get a chance I will take them off. A factory tech guy on another forum said that I need to raise the rear caliper above the abs unit and bleed the air out, then repeat for the front. I'll get it working eventually (fingers crossed)
Where is the ABS unit located? His statement isn't out of the realm of possibility, but is it possible to get the calipers above the ABS unit?
ABS unit is ~ upper rear of the airbox, so a bit of fiddling and he could get the calipers and lines higher.
Quote from: Speeddog on November 13, 2015, 04:30:31 PM
ABS unit is ~ upper rear of the airbox, so a bit of fiddling and he could get the calipers and lines higher.
Stand on your head and stick your tongue out just right kind of fiddling? ;D
Quote from: ducpainter on November 13, 2015, 04:37:40 PM
Stand on your head and stick your tongue out just right kind of fiddling? ;D
Nah, not that bad. [laugh]
Opening and closing bleeder valves on calipers hanging from a wire, and need a helper who can follow direction.
I hope I can work it out. Just like every mod I have done it is taking far longer than I expected. I always start by saying "1 or 2 hours and good as new". 3 weeks later and I'm still pulling my hair out.